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So you are a GM (or a player).
Recently, or on a recurring basis, you were surprised by how much damage a certain character around the table is able to deal.
Before level 7, the character casually deals 100 damage per round, and hits ACs well beyond it's level.
He's able to shape into an undead monk dragon, and do a flurry of blows while breathing negative fire raising angel zombies.
He multiclassed three times, becoming an avatar of power and destruction.
Or maybe he's casting three spells per round, because "the rules say so".
Whatever the situation, one of your player seems to have discovered the magical key to break the game ; and if he isn't already overshadowing the party or steamrolling encounters, it's only because he didn't find it yet.
Now this is impressing !
If these situations seem similar to what you are experiencing, if you are a GM in an upcoming game and feel like one of the characters isn't really kosher, or simply because you are curious about what the rules would say about some overpowered character you know :
Post the character's build on this thread !
Almost every time, such characters aren't following the RAW (Rules As Written). Whether by honest misinterpretation or slimy cheating, knowing if a player's character isn't legal will make your game much more fun for everyone else, and easier to balance as a GM.
So if you are wondering why some character from your group is so good at it's job, or simply because you want to be totally sure that every player you will play with is on equal foot before beginning a new game (or isn't trying to cheat under your nose), please post the character's build. The boards will be quick to dissecate and analyze every loophole to make your life easier.
So, do you have any character to check on ?
(AM BARBARIAN is only allowed on this thread as the quality of jury member. AM BARBARIAN is asked to let his LANCE outside when entering the room. Any mention of AM BARBARIAN on this thread will give you a Pathfindwin Point. Pathfindwin Points are redeemable at AM BARBARIAN for one application of RAGELANCEPOUNCE. Applications of RAGELANCEPOUNCE must be done outside the room. Please don't feed AM BARBARIAN.)
Thank you for this thread. I'll be refereeing again soon (the Kirthfinder house rule set uses the term referee instead of GM, and I very much like it, as I feel it fits what I need to be when running a game), and, while I hopefully will never need to use this thread, it's nice to know it's here.
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Wow it's like a playground combined with a math contest on a soccerfield! I love you!
My top offenders:
The three handed cleric. This character routinely uses one hand to hold his heavy shield, one to smash his enemies, and casts spells when convenient with his third hand.
The speedy potion: Standard action to draw a potion, move to a fallen comrade, and a standard action to feed that comrade a potion, all in one round.
(speedy scroll variant also possible)
The rogue with everything: tumbling about and evading with the greatest of ease, AND prepared for every contingency with a wagonloads of gear too.
I won't even discuss the mis-built eidolon.
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Well, don't make the mistake of thinking this thread is even required if you have any problem with a character. People who were curious about a specific character always just created a new thread and received answers without having to wait much.
I'm just surprised by the amount of people frequenting the messageboards who have preconceived ideas around some rules because a player they know use them (or simply mention deeds that shouldn't be possible to accomplish for such character), but never seem to think about checking said character's build to see if what they are doing is even legal. When you don't have a full grasp of the rules and think like something is off, relying on other's people's knowledge can only be beneficial ; including if you are a DM with players you don't know enough to trust blindly and have to verify a build before accepting the character in the game.
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Wow it's like a playground combined with a math contest on a soccerfield! I love you!
Add to this a lot of drama when whiny player will contest the results of this thread's Rules Council (tm), plus the pleasure of reading what happened when said player was informed of his illegal build. Either tales of frustration which will provide lots of evil laughter ; or of admirable fair-play which makes you feel good on the inside.
How could this go wrong ?
The speedy potion: Standard action to draw a potion, move to a fallen comrade, and a standard action to feed that comrade a potion, all in one round.
(speedy scroll variant also possible)
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first drawing the potion is a move but second and more importantly how is he getting two moves?
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How could this go wrong ?
DUN DUN DUN!!! *Thundercrash*
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first drawing the potion is a move but second and more importantly how is he getting two moves?
1. Unknowningly (does this word even exist ? you english people are wierd.) of the GM.
2. Unknowningly of the players.3. Rolling dices and speaking fast so people forget.
4. Pretending that there is something about drawing an item during a move.
5. Also, the GM being kind. But this isn't so much abuse as it is "good cheating".
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The three handed cleric. This character routinely uses one hand to hold his heavy shield, one to smash his enemies, and casts spells when convenient with his third hand.
Technically legal with the light shields, because they leave your hand holding the shield free (its strapped to the arm) you can either cast with your shield hand or pass the mace over and cast with your other hand and then pass the weapon back.
The speedy potion: Standard action to draw a potion, move to a fallen comrade, and a standard action to feed that comrade a potion, all in one round.
Otherwise known as the "I'm looking the other way so your character doesn't die" dming technique.
The rogue with everything: tumbling about and evading with the greatest of ease, AND prepared for every contingency with a wagonloads of gear too.
With enough bags of holding you too can be a wagon.
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I'm the one that got this starting in a another thread so I'll post the group I'm running right now. And most of this is from memory ill look at there full builds when we game.
We use a 15 point buy. If you want to know why there are dump stats on almost all of the characters. Make a character with a 15 point buy with out dump stats. And we do use 3rd party and 3.5 materal but must pass the two people that GM for the group to be alowed for play.
Human : Oracle : Mystery Battle Level 7
Str 19(+2human +1 4Th level) Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 7 Cha 12 (+item)= 14
Feet's
H: Improved Intuitive
1: Extra Revelation : War Sight
3: Exotic Weapon : Fauchard 1D10 18-20/X2 Reach,Trip
5: Power Attack
7: Swap Places
Revelations
1: Skill At Arms
3: Weapon Mastery : Fauchard
7: Maneuver Mastery : Trip
Half Elf : Bard
Star 18(+2Half Elf +1 4th level) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12 (+2item)= 14
Alternate Racial Trait
Ancestral Arms: Fauchard (See Above)
Feet's
1: Extra Performance
3: Lingering Performance
5: Weapon Focus : Fauchard
7: Swap Places
Inspire Courage (+2)
Human : Warlord (Tome of Secretes)
Str 18(+2human +1 4th level) Dex 11 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12
Feet's
H: Power Attack
1: Exotic Weapon : Falcata
2Bonus: Weapon Focus : Falcata
3: Improved Initiative
4Bonus: Weapon Spoliation : Falcata
5: (Can't remember what feet.)
7: Swap Places
Comanding Presence (+1)
Human : Ranger
Str 17 (+2Human +1 4th level) Dex 15 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 7
Feet's
H: Exotic Weapon : Falcata
1: Over Sized Two Weapon Fighting (From 3.5)
3: Double Slice
5: Weapon Focus : Falcata
7: Swap Places
Ranger Combat Style : Two Weapon Fighting
2: Two Weapon Fighting
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Half Elf : Rogue
Str 14 Dex 18 (+2Half Elf +1 4th level) Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 7
Feet's
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Combat Reflexes
5: Butter Fly Sting
7: Swap Places
Rogue Talents:
2: Finesse Rogue
4: Weapon Training : Short Sword
6: Fast Stealth
The speedy potion: Standard action to draw a potion, move to a fallen comrade, and a standard action to feed that comrade a potion, all in one round.
While Your Mileage May Vary some groups rule that the Quick Draw feat allows you to 'draw' other items beyond weapons as a free action; thus allowing 'draw' the potion as a free action, make a single move action to the wounded character, and make a standard action to apply to potion.
Technically a glove of storing can allow you to do the above without any house rules but does cost a bit of gold. I guess it depends on what level your characters are at as to whether or not such a thing is feasible.
It also doesn’t seem to be as over-the-top as you make it to be. It not like they’re juggling a hundred potions while rage-lance-pouncing with a third lance in their mouth.
I'm the one that got this starting in a another thread so I'll post the group I'm running right now. And most of this is from memory ill look at there full builds when we game.
We use a 15 point buy. If you want to know why there are dump stats on almost all of the characters. Make a character with a 15 point buy with out dump stats. And we do use 3rd party and 3.5 materal but must pass the two people that GM for the group to be alowed for play.
Human : Oracle : Mystery Battle Level 7
Str 19(+2human +1 4Th level) Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 7 Cha 12 (+item)= 14
Feet's
H: Improved Intuitive
1: Extra Revelation : War Sight
3: Exotic Weapon : Fauchard 1D10 18-20/X2 Reach,Trip
5: Power Attack
7: Swap Places
Revelations
1: Skill At Arms
3: Weapon Mastery : Fauchard
7: Maneuver Mastery : TripHalf Elf : Bard
Star 18(+2Half Elf +1 4th level) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12 (+2item)= 14
Alternate Racial Trait
Ancestral Arms: Fauchard (See Above)
Feet's
1: Extra Performance
3: Lingering Performance
5: Weapon Focus : Fauchard
7: Swap Places
Inspire Courage (+2)Human : Warlord (Tome of Secretes)
Str 18(+2human +1 4th level) Dex 11 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12
Feet's
H: Power Attack
1: Exotic Weapon : Falcata
2Bonus: Weapon Focus : Falcata
3: Improved Initiative
4Bonus: Weapon Spoliation : Falcata
5: (Can't remember what feet.)
7: Swap Places
Comanding Presence (+1)Human : Ranger
Str 17 (+2Human +1 4th level) Dex 15 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 7
Feet's
H: Exotic Weapon : Falcata
1: Over Sized Two Weapon Fighting (From 3.5)
3: Double Slice
5: Weapon Focus : Falcata
7: Swap Places
Ranger Combat Style : Two Weapon Fighting
2: Two Weapon Fighting
6: Improved Two Weapon FightingHalf Elf : Rogue
Str 14 Dex 18 (+2Half Elf +1 4th level) Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 7
Feet's
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Combat Reflexes
5: Butter Fly Sting
7: Swap Places
Rogue Talents:
2: Finesse Rogue
4: Weapon Training : Short Sword
6: Fast Stealth
Lol, the entire party made synergizing characters. Honest to tell you that seems all legal. Here's the thing though, the spell slow ruins them and anything that is flying or at range they can't deal with. Also look at all of their wisdom scores. Their strategy to beat combats is extremely melee.
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I'm surprised by these builds, Calagnar - most of them aren't even close to what I would consider "optimized", nor "stat-dumping like hell". Especially for a 15-point buy.
Some vital points that may be interesting to look upon :
- Rogue's Butterfly's Sting, with TWFing ? Confirming critical hits must be hard when you have so much penalty to attack and a low-crit range weapon, even with the bard's Inspire Courage to keep up. Don't forget the rogue has to confirm a critical hit before giving it to another creature, and it only works on the next unique attack.
- Swapping places is an immediate action, so maximum once a round and no swift action for the following round.
- Falcatas are... well... not vastly considered as the most balanced weapon ever made. Rolling lucky becomes even deadlier with such weapon without some nerf.
- All in all (not considering the Warlord), these are indeed legal builds, and I guess their efficiency comes from a good amount of teamwork, and what probably looks like the following : Bard Inspires => Warlord Commands => Oracle Trips => Bard enters threaten zone => Rogue, Warlord and Ranger flank => Rogue crits creature standing up, gives critical to Ranger => Ranger crits with PA on a prone creature and with a x3 weapon => Bard AoO's and use spells to help the rogue confirm crits => Rinse and repeat to threaten and AoO/Falcata-crit the most possible creatures.
Pretty admirable actually ! Easy counters to this strategy :
- Flying monsters
- Serpentine monsters
- High CMD ennemies
- Intangible creatures/oozes
- Fortified creatures
- Reach monsters + maneuvers (Grab, trip, etc.)
- Large creatures hard to flank
- Spellcasters (debuff, battlefield control, enchantment, summoning)
The speedy potion: Standard action to draw a potion, move to a fallen comrade, and a standard action to feed that comrade a potion, all in one round.While Your Mileage May Vary some groups rule that the Quick Draw feat allows you to 'draw' other items beyond weapons as a free action; thus allowing 'draw' the potion as a free action, make a single move action to the wounded character, and make a standard action to apply to potion.
Technically a glove of storing can allow you to do the above without any house rules but does cost a bit of gold. I guess it depends on what level your characters are at as to whether or not such a thing is feasible.
It also doesn’t seem to be as over-the-top as you make it to be. It not like they’re juggling a hundred potions while rage-lance-pouncing with a third lance in their mouth.
Also a weapon can be drawn 'on the move' quite a few GMs allow this for other items as well, so you use a move to get to your companion meanwhile fetching a potion from who knows who knows where and uses a standard action to administer the potion. I personally will allow to get a potion on the move if they have a convenient potion belt or otherwise keep a potion in easy reach.
The rogue with everything: tumbling about and evading with the greatest of ease, AND prepared for every contingency with a wagonloads of gear too.With enough bags of holding you too can be a wagon.
I prefer the Handy Haversack. At just 2,000 gp a pop and it doesn't provoke AoO to pull out exactly the item you need. Only weighs 5 lbs as well. The last rogue I played owned THREE. LOL
Master Arminas
My top offenders:
The three handed cleric. This character routinely uses one hand to hold his heavy shield, one to smash his enemies, and casts spells when convenient with his third hand.
The speedy potion: Standard action to draw a potion, move to a fallen comrade, and a standard action to feed that comrade a potion, all in one round.
I've been guilty of this one. Lately my kobold Alchemist leans his head back and opens his mouth for Cure Potions to be poured down his gullet by someone else so he can get back in the fight without missing a standard. Pretty sure that's not RAW or RAI.
Why do I do this? Our cleric has enormous stats (average 18), enormous AC, and is extremely stingy with healing.
I'm the one that got this starting in a another thread so I'll post the group I'm running right now. And most of this is from memory ill look at there full builds when we game.
We use a 15 point buy. If you want to know why there are dump stats on almost all of the characters. Make a character with a 15 point buy with out dump stats. And we do use 3rd party and 3.5 materal but must pass the two people that GM for the group to be alowed for play.
Human : Oracle : Mystery Battle Level 7
Str 19(+2human +1 4Th level) Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 7 Cha 12 (+item)= 14
Feet's
H: Improved Intuitive
1: Extra Revelation : War Sight
3: Exotic Weapon : Fauchard 1D10 18-20/X2 Reach,Trip
5: Power Attack
7: Swap Places
Revelations
1: Skill At Arms
3: Weapon Mastery : Fauchard
7: Maneuver Mastery : TripHalf Elf : Bard
Star 18(+2Half Elf +1 4th level) Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12 (+2item)= 14
Alternate Racial Trait
Ancestral Arms: Fauchard (See Above)
Feet's
1: Extra Performance
3: Lingering Performance
5: Weapon Focus : Fauchard
7: Swap Places
Inspire Courage (+2)Human : Warlord (Tome of Secretes)
Str 18(+2human +1 4th level) Dex 11 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12
Feet's
H: Power Attack
1: Exotic Weapon : Falcata
2Bonus: Weapon Focus : Falcata
3: Improved Initiative
4Bonus: Weapon Spoliation : Falcata
5: (Can't remember what feet.)
7: Swap Places
Comanding Presence (+1)Human : Ranger
Str 17 (+2Human +1 4th level) Dex 15 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 7
Feet's
H: Exotic Weapon : Falcata
1: Over Sized Two Weapon Fighting (From 3.5)
3: Double Slice
5: Weapon Focus : Falcata
7: Swap Places
Ranger Combat Style : Two Weapon Fighting
2: Two Weapon Fighting
6: Improved Two Weapon FightingHalf Elf : Rogue
Str 14 Dex 18 (+2Half Elf +1 4th level) Con 12 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 7
Feet's
1: Two Weapon Fighting
3: Combat Reflexes
5: Butter Fly Sting
7: Swap Places
Rogue Talents:
2: Finesse Rogue
4: Weapon Training : Short Sword
6: Fast Stealth
Looks like your bard hasn't dumped. Neither has the Warlord. More importantly, 15 points is pretty stingy and below Society standard. You're more or less expected to dump, yeah?
And these guys have enough of a team spirit to all share a teamwork feat? On paper, this looks like a lot of high fives and happiness.
If your players aren't complaining, I don't see the problem. In fact, you should reward them. Plenty of grousy GMs round here would gladly trade their group for yours (on paper).
BTW, you must be doing something right as GM. Maybe 15 points isn't such a bad idea. :)
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I guess their efficiency comes from a good amount of teamwork, and what probably looks like the following : Bard Inspires => Warlord Commands => Oracle Trips => Bard enters threaten zone => Rogue, Warlord and Ranger flank => Rogue crits creature standing up, gives critical to Ranger => Ranger crits with PA on a prone creature and with a x3 weapon => Bard AoO's and use spells to help the rogue confirm crits => Rinse and repeat to threaten and AoO/Falcata-crit the most possible creatures.
That is close but remember the Oracle has War sight. So surprise Round the Oracle is casting divine Favor. The Rogue acts in surprise round most of the time and moves in to place. The Oracle and Bard are using reach weapons there is not need for them to get to close. And the Oracle with enough warning can cast enlarge person on most of the group before combat starts. That combined with a Haste from the bard can crank out allot of damage. Over all it's party synergy that dose it.
Pretty admirable actually ! Easy counters to this strategy :
- Flying monsters
- Serpentine monsters
- High CMD ennemies
- Intangible creatures/oozes
- Fortified creatures
- Reach monsters + maneuvers (Grab, trip, etc.)
- Large creatures hard to flank
- Spellcasters (debuff, battlefield control, enchantment, summoning)
Flying Monsters : Tryed at level 5 when they toke down a CR 6 in two rounds. Might try this again. Remember the Inspire courage and commanding presence make all of them ok at range even with a low dex.
Serpentine Monsters : ? I'm guessing becous they can't be tripped.High CMD enemies : Well here is the problem the Oracle fully buffed.
CMB + 17 or so at level 7 for trip. Next level when he gets Divine Power it will go up to +20 or so.
Intangible Creatures : The ghost lasted 3 Rounds. And was at level 5 VS. CR 9 Ghost.
Fortified Creatures : Well I started giving every thing they fight full HP instead of 1/2 has helped make the fights last longer then a round.
Reach Monsters + Maneuvers : Working on this.
Large Creatures : By there nature are easy to flank if the group works to gather.
Spell casters : This is what I'm doing next. There are two casters in the next part of the adventure there in. I'll see how it goes when there faces with a battlefield control specialized wizard.
I've recently had the displeasure of the player who flipped through a rulebook, saw a spell and said "I cast blah" only to justify it as "well it was on my spell list."
Some other things that will help:
Difficult terrain
Multiple monsters
Unfavorable terrain
I've recently had the displeasure of the player who flipped through a rulebook, saw a spell and said "I cast blah" only to justify it as "well it was on my spell list."
Not so much a rules lawyer. More like a rules... doofus?
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Remember that most of these buffs are not unlimited/day and are of short duration. Cunning enemies will see the magic monstruous PCs and simply retreat, or wait some time for the buffs to end, making it an endurance and will battle. This kind of hit-and-run tactics can make for a tough and surprising encounter.
Also, one mistake you seem to have made : NEVER do big fights with unique bosses creatures, even with a high CR, unless the creature is heavily tweaked and originality/cinematic actions during fights are rewarded. One boss against a full party working together simply loses because of unfavorable action economy, unless it is a spellcaster that can afford to occupy the group with summons/control and save-or-suck/die effects.
I've recently had the displeasure of the player who flipped through a rulebook, saw a spell and said "I cast blah" only to justify it as "well it was on my spell list."Not so much a rules lawyer. More like a rules... doofus?
More or less. They were new to pathfinder but came to the table acting as if they had done all this preparation for their character and they didn't even know how to prepare their spells.
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BTW, you must be doing something right as GM. Maybe 15 points isn't such a bad idea. :)
15 Point buy gets them in the mentality of we need to work to gather. This is not nearly the most organized group in combat. They do work well with each other and have learned to work with each other. When we used 20, and 25 point buy they where much less organized as a group. The starting mentality of a 15 point buy is very different then most other builds in many ways. You have to make two choices. One of what you want to be good at. Two what you want to be weak in.
And yes 15 point buys are wonderfull characters. I get more attached to them when they succeed then a 20 or 25 point buy. Because the 15 point buy is more threanted then the other types of point builds.
I prefer the Handy Haversack. At just 2,000 gp a pop and it doesn't provoke AoO to pull out exactly the item you need. Only weighs 5 lbs as well. The last rogue I played owned THREE. LOL
Master Arminas
Oh, for sure it can be done. But not for free. Every Handy haversack purchased is one less +1 weapon. Same with the three handed cleric, you have to give up that heavy shield.
It's the double standard I find irritating. GMs who would NEVER allow a player to add a +1 to her weapon will allow, in essence, a free haversack.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not against house rules at all. I have more than one set on my easy reference list. But house rules should be clear and out in the open, not just in someone's head.
Dotting for future reference. I like seeing different builds.
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Dotting for future reference. I like seeing different builds.
Note that the intent of this thread isn't so much looking at effective and different builds, that looking at illegal (from the simple mistake or forgotten prerequisite, like Weapon Focus at 1st level with a cleric, to the most overly ridiculous) ones, or the ways to counter effective but legal strategies without penalizing too much any party involved.
Dotting for future reference. I like seeing different builds.Note that the intent of this thread isn't so much looking at effective and different builds, that looking at illegal (from the simple mistake or forgotten prerequisite, like Weapon Focus at 1st level with a cleric, to the most overly ridiculous) ones, or the ways to counter effective but legal strategies without penalizing too much any party involved.
There still might have some good ideas, even if they are poorly implemented. It's kinda cool that a whole group invested in the same teamwork feat---never thought I'd see that.
The rogue with everything: tumbling about and evading with the greatest of ease, AND prepared for every contingency with a wagonloads of gear too.
This is my current bard actually.
First off, I always go after a masterwork backpack to increase str +1 (for carrying stuff.). After that my next big goal is handy haversack and most importantly.. Mythral chain shirt.
The chain shirt weighs in at 12.5 pounds. which is 2.5 pounds less than studded with no armor check penalties.
I replace my rope with silk, and get a mythril grappling hook as well, thus losing quite a bit of weight there.
I combine multi-use spells with multi-use gear in order to prepare for nearly anything. For example, today there was a non-moving blade trap. Just basically a blade you had to climb over and avoid getting cut. So I used my bed roll to "disable" the danger.
I also have a tendency to collect things along the way and destroy them just as quickly. in the dungeon we entered in, I've so far picked up a few smoke sticks, a pillow and a broom.
In a different game, I picked up a metal spike, two legs of a statue, a stone slab (two in fact), and a kopesh. The metal spike was used to blockade a door before it slammed shut. (spike destroyed.) The first stone slab was pushed around, disarming and destroying many traps until the statue acided it. Second slab was left behind after running away from the ancient mummy. The first leg was used to stop another door from closing, destroying both. Still have the second leg and kopesh.
I had a Magus in my Kingmaker campaign that did ungodly damage before level 7. Leveled something like 140 on a forest drake. I can't remember the build.
My biggest issues are with players not giving me their spell lists or telling me what they have memorized. So, when it seems like the spontaneous casters have the most convenient spells memorized, it made me start to wonder. I recently called the cleric on it...actually had the odd spells written on his sheet and hadn't used them because the situation hadn't called for them yet.
Interestingly enough, if I recall correctly, the Adventure Paths we've played (Kingmaker and Council of Thieves) are written for a 15-point build, 4 person party. I can't say that I find 15 point builds stingy if the APs are designed with them in mind. As a player on our CoT AP, I'd have loved to have 20 points to spend, but our party (of 5) is doing just fine with the 15 point buys.
I once had a guy back when we played 3.5 that would continually add the feat "Whirlwind attack" to his character sheet (he was playing a ninja), even though he did not have the pre-requisite feats. I would occassionally ask to see everyone's sheet to check their math. (Some of my player's didn't understand the concept of similar bonuses not stacking, etc.) Anyways, this happened for about 3 to 4 times and I never said anything to him about it, I just erased it from his sheet. The rogue in the party had a higher dex than him, had improved init, but was constantly wondering why the ninja was either going before him, or immediately after him. So, one time he rolled a 20 for init and waited for the ninja to tell me his init score. When the guy stated it was higher than the rogue, the rogue was like "B%&$$^%&! Let me see your character sheet. See, there is no way you could have rolled higher than me on init because you don't have improved initiative on your feat list and I rolled a 20. And how do you have Whirlwind Attack without Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack?"
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The problem with teamwork feats is that they make you less good at your own schtick. If your own schtick isn't to make your pals shine (like with most bards or clerics), it could mean less fun for you, at least as long as you don't have all the feats needed to be the crowning pony god of your trick.
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My top offenders:
The three handed cleric. This character routinely uses one hand to hold his heavy shield, one to smash his enemies, and casts spells when convenient with his third hand.
Is this cleric human? One of the things I would do to minimize this cleric's power is to give him a serious Charisma penalty and an additional penalty to certain CHA based skill checks. He is a freak after all. When the player says, and he inevitably will, "I cover my arm up so it can't be scene." Insist on a Disguise skill check. If they don't have the skill, they suffer with the penalty.
This won't necessarily fix your problem but it will add some balance to your game in other areas. If you wanted you could, depending of the deity of the cleric, kick the cleric out of the priesthood. You could send the cleric on a mission of atonement in which his third arm needs to be removed.
Is this cleric human? One of the things I would do to minimize this cleric's power is to give him a serious Charisma penalty and an additional penalty to certain CHA based skill checks. He is a freak after all. When the player says, and he inevitably will, "I cover my arm up so it can't be scene." Insist on a Disguise skill check. If they don't have the skill, they suffer with the penalty.
This won't necessarily fix your problem but it will add some balance to your game in other areas. If you wanted you could, depending of the deity of the cleric, kick the cleric out of the priesthood. You could send the cleric on a mission of atonement in which his third arm needs to be removed.
*groans*
Dotting this thread as well. It would have been very handy back when I GM'd Pathfinder and had a seriously overbuffed druid and his animal companion tearing through everything. *Everything*.
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My top offenders:
The three handed cleric. This character routinely uses one hand to hold his heavy shield, one to smash his enemies, and casts spells when convenient with his third hand.
Is this cleric human? One of the things I would do to minimize this cleric's power is to give him a serious Charisma penalty and an additional penalty to certain CHA based skill checks. He is a freak after all. When the player says, and he inevitably will, "I cover my arm up so it can't be scene." Insist on a Disguise skill check. If they don't have the skill, they suffer with the penalty.
This won't necessarily fix your problem but it will add some balance to your game in other areas. If you wanted you could, depending of the deity of the cleric, kick the cleric out of the priesthood. You could send the cleric on a mission of atonement in which his third arm needs to be removed.
What he's getting at is that the cleric does not have three hands. The player conveniently forgets that his hands are full and always acts as if he has a free hand when he needs one for spellcasting.
When i mastered a group, there was a freedom domain cleric specialized in healing and a hard two-handed barbarian. One just cut through everything, but wasn´t even that optimized. The other just destroyed most plots and thrilling scenes with his domain aura of liberty or whatever its called and healed the whole group constantly. They never needed to worry about taken damage or conditions. This gave me a lot of problems, because it just went like: Oh look the evil villain can´t hold his captive anymore because in my aura nobody can get grappled or similar stuff and the barbarian chops him into pieces before i need more than three heals. Additionaly he had an 40+ Perception skill.
This ended with the cleric being nauseated, flanked, poisoned and the barbarian being charmed, compulsioned and whatever i could hang on them.
Also i maxed and doubled all foes HP.
I guess even if players cheat a little bit or maybe "forget" some prerequisites, it can be ok. Quite often legal builds are powerful enough. I would never allow such a cleric again though, even if its legal. Just too much bothering...
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To be fair, the cleric's aura is a limited number of rounds/day, and nothing says captives are liberated from their prisons/cords, just that they are able to move freely as long as they stay in the cleric's range. I could see how it could have risen a lot of headache though.
Dotting
The most egregious issue I've ever seen in game was a cheating summoner. I wasn't GMing, and that campaign suspended itself, so there's that.
Currently, I'm only having to deal with poor communication between me the GM and the party. Half of it comes from people not paying attention, half of it comes from me choosing my phrasing poorly.
Oh how i know this. Communication is key.
Our DM just lured us exactly where he didn´t want us to go by his wordings---ending with a lvl 1 party freeing a lvl 20 mage and killing a pit fiend and several of his folks. Only the DM did not use blasphemy and some other stuff, im not sure if he didnt want a TPK or just didn´t know how to handle it. He´s still too much into a previous version and sometimes a little bit helpless :)
I dig the advice for challenging these parties. I sense this thread will go far.
I'm between parties at the moment, unfortunately. We'll see how things progress.
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Bumping this thread. Got a lot of players complaining about other's builds these days, or posting an awesome combo of death and never posting again when we discover that the OP is actually the player of said horrible build (20 actual, vorpal natural attacks per round Eidolon ?).
Please let us know about them !