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You are overreacting.
HASTE ONE OF THE FAVORITE THINGS AM CAN BE DOING IN COMBAT, UNTIL BLESSING OF FERVOR BECOMES AVAILABLE.
You're complaining because the game developers gave a way for PCs to be awesome that GMs can't refute without risking being huge pricks? I wish I lived your life, lol.
That said, simply discourage it by introducing NPC tactics that either negate it or discourage it. Against particularly strong enemies, the party is going to run into things like enchantments. You could give a baddie, say, an amulet of slow ward that effects the area around him. Just be creative. Don't gimp the players!
Dunno. I don't have the same issues in my games It is a very reasonable 3rd level spell to me
While I'm always against the Banhammer, you do make a good point that Haste does do a lot more than most spells of its level (I can't think of anything more powerful for its level, but that might just be my limited memory). Perhaps rather than banning it outright, you could take a page from the Witch Hexes and make it only able to effect a person once per day? This would mean that it wouldn't be spammed every battle, and it would become a tactical choice to use it. You'd want to discuss it with your players, but I know if my DM laid out such well reasoned points as you have, I would agree to a trial.
If 3rd level spells are making you irritated then just wait a few levels. Pathfinder/3.X is all about casters screwing with your plot, your combats, and well everything. Accept that the game is a broken pile of old toys and play with the ones you want and leave the rest in the heap.
So yeah remove haste and blessing of fervor from your games, metamagic rods of quicken too it won't do anything but upset players who like to play casters because your melee guys will just use feat loop holes to exploit the game and kill all your monsters in two rounds anyway.
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The other reason haste used to be only a 3rd-level spell was the restriction in 1e that it aged the character a year every time it was cast. That's an enormous penalty; so much so, that most DMs never enforced it. The aging penalty got removed for...what, 3.0?...because the aging penalties were awkward to enforce.
You could simply house-rule, as above, that it's only useable once per day, or require the characters to make fortitude saves to avoid being stunned for a few rounds if it's cast more than once, or change the level of the spell to 5th or so, which is where it is power-wise (that's my opinion; YMMV).
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As a wizard currently casting Haste, we need all the help we can get.
You are right in that it cuts down on various options and strategies, but it also opens up many more.
Faster combat is great for a group with a roleplaying focus. Extra attacks are only earned for a full round attack ie no movement. It doesn't make all combat tactics less interesting (getting round the spearman was a great idea but wouldn't have worked inside, let alone all the 'answers' you listed).
Let them enjoy Haste while they can. Eventually, they'll miss Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Major Image and Suggestion.
You could go back to the 1st edition balance for haste.
Every casting of haste causes those affected by it to age one year, irrevocably, with regard to physical stats (you do not get the benefits of age to your mental stats).
A 3rd level spell that rapidly drains your str, con, and dex, and eventually kills you outright is not something that gets cast 4+ times daily.
Another workable solution? Increase the scale of combat, and plan for haste. You can't do it every time, but one tool is to have the BBEG initiate combat at extreme ranges and have ways to break off and re-engage after a few minutes (clearly you have to tailor this to your party). Make them fight through dross, using up buffs, and then when they get to you let them buff up and then break off to allow the buffs to die off.
Never have enemies stand still and eat a full attack, either. Haste is great... unless you never get a full attack action. Once the enemy sees a hasted enemy, they should never end a round within 5' of a melee type. Use acrobatics or multiple withdrawals to limit the number of AoO.
That said, most of the time you should let haste 'work'. That way the times that you actively work around it will seem interesting and not punitive.
My only 3rd edition PC (I GM 95% of the time) was actually a Swiftblade, a prestige class dedicated entirely to the Haste Spell. I could cast it as a swift action, I got more stat buffs out of it, and even got miss chance from moving so fast I blurred.
My solution as a GM was removing PC spellcasters and 99% of magic items. It had a very Sword and Sorcery feel.
Meanwhile, there's less time for casters to do anything interesting in battle. Haste doesn't give extra standard actions, so the witch and the wizard are still stuck with one spell per round. In theory, there are all sorts of cool spell combinations that a caster can fire off in battle: a strong debuff on a particular save, for instance, followed by a save-or-suck targeting that save. But these become less attractive as the battles get shorter; you just may not have time for them. Meanwhile, straight damage-dealing spells still work, but they become *relatively* less effective because the melee guys and the archer and putting out so much more damage. In terms of pure power gaming, it becomes more attractive to cast buffs on the people who are hasted (or combat debuffs on their targets).
This paragraph right here is one reason that, while I sometimes dismay at my monsters being cut to ribbons by hasted fighters, I accept the haste spell as a good thing. I like spell casting options that promote teamwork rather than a caster trying to one-shot an encounter with a save or end encounter spell. Credible options for doing so enable wizards (and other casters) to pursue other strategies in their character development and tactics while still contributing to a massive punch.
A random thing... but I was recently playing Icewind Dale, which is based on AD&D 2nd ed rules. Since they couldn't enforce the aging effect haste had in a video game very easily, they made the spell render all characters fatigued when the duration elapsed. Fatigue is hard to heal... easier than aging, though, and could make it more of an issue to consider whether it's worth casting or not.
Other ways to balance it if you think it's too powerful for a 3rd level spell:
1. Make it a 4th level spell
2. Eliminate the AC bonus and Reflex save bonus
3. Make it require an expensive material component
4. Make it affect only one creature. That way, they want to spam it to speed up the whole party, they can, but it will cost more resources (were I to change it, this is what I'd do, personally)
A random thing... but I was recently playing Icewind Dale, which is based on AD&D 2nd ed rules. Since they couldn't enforce the aging effect haste had in a video game very easily, they made the spell render all characters fatigued when the duration elapsed. Fatigue is hard to heal... easier than aging, though, and could make it more of an issue to consider whether it's worth casting or not.
Other ways to balance it if you think it's too powerful for a 3rd level spell:
1. Make it a 4th level spell
2. Eliminate the AC bonus and Reflex save bonus
3. Make it require an expensive material component
4. Make it affect only one creature. That way, they want to spam it to speed up the whole party, they can, but it will cost more resources (were I to change it, this is what I'd do, personally)
+1 to #4. This was what I personally envisioned, too. I used to enforce the old 1e age 1 year rule for casting haste and hardly anyone ever did it, but I don't care for that mechanic these days. I also like the fatigued idea if it is kept where it is an aoe. Personally, though, I like just making it a single target, touch spell.
Options other than haste at 3rd level spells:
Slow -- stagger all enemies, reducing their total action economy, and preventing full attacks.
Stinking Cloud -- Limit enemy action economy and battlefield control. No attacks allowed.
Fly -- 60 foot good fly speed, which avoids dangerous/difficult terrain as well as many obstacles and enemies.
Wind Wall -- ranged attacks are useless, stops smaller flying creatures. Prevents some spells and abilities.
Tiny Hut -- Blocks line of sight, provides a 'safe' environment.
Those are just off the top of my head of course, but my point is haste isn't that out of line:
1. The 'primary' benefit (an extra swing) only happens when you can get a full attack.
2. The other bonuses are overshadowed by lower level spells (bless or expeditious retreat for example), this one just gets them out faster.
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haste is a touch spell, so unless the party is in fireball formation, they need to waste some actions getting next to the spellcaster.
Haste is a wonderful spell, but I don't think it is too powerful
Haste is a close-range spell, not touch. No two targets may be more than 30 feet from each other, though, so there's still fireball potential.
+1 to #4. This was what I personally envisioned, too. I used to enforce the old 1e age 1 year rule for casting haste and hardly anyone ever did it, but I don't care for that mechanic these days. I also like the fatigued idea if it is kept where it is an aoe. Personally, though, I like just making it a single target, touch spell.haste is a touch spell, so unless the party is in fireball formation, they need to waste some actions getting next to the spellcaster.
Nope, sorry, it's a close range spell. Not to mention, only the first target needs to be in range, and the rest of the targets affected need to be within 30 feet of him. (ninjaed!)
If you like long combats, tell your DM. Have him give every monster Max hitpoints but halve it's damage or something.
Ive never had a problem with haste, mostly because usually the caster doesn't get the most benefit from it. The caster is essentially giving up a standard action to make his combat guys significantly better. Ofcourse this depends entirely on how many pcs are in the party actually fight. Large parties or all combat parties (say a magus, inquisitor, fighter, druid party) gain alot more then the clasic 4. But then that problem exists for ALL mass buffs.
Now mind you I do think haste is a very good spell, but given its primary benefits only come into play for martial characters on a full attack, and everyone else gets a minor buff AND it is one of the only a handfull of good ways that arcane/fighter types have to buff themselves, I think it is fine as it is.
To the people sighting the 1st/2nd edition version. It did age you a year but it was also a lot more powerful. I dont remember the statistics, but it granted more than one extra attack around when full attacking.
Count me in the group that think haste is far from Op. Some spells are just better options at certain levels..homoginizing is not always a good thing. But for my buck there are easy ways to counter it before considering a house rule nerf.
How about enemies that move around alot? after all its only an extra attack if you have a full attack.
How about using difficult terrain with a bbeg thats immune, now everytime he 5 foots and you cant...they lose that extra attack.
this doesnt even count removing it through, haste, or slow, or blocking it through silence, or dead magic zones.
In a nut shell if you dont like it and they use it too much...beat them up for it, and watch them take the hint.
Ive never had a problem with haste, mostly because usually the caster doesn't get the most benefit from it. The caster is essentially giving up a standard action to make his combat guys significantly better. Ofcourse this depends entirely on how many pcs are in the party actually fight. Large parties or all combat parties (say a magus, inquisitor, fighter, druid party) gain alot more then the clasic 4. But then that problem exists for ALL mass buffs.
Now mind you I do think haste is a very good spell, but given its primary benefits only come into play for martial characters on a full attack, and everyone else gets a minor buff AND it is one of the only a handfull of good ways that arcane/fighter types have to buff themselves, I think it is fine as it is.
Trading your standard action so your beat stick can take another seems fair. Especially at levels where your spells really don't shine yet. They're just nigh enough to kill the enemy just quickly enough to stop them from killing you and that's about it.
+1 to #4. This was what I personally envisioned, too. I used to enforce the old 1e age 1 year rule for casting haste and hardly anyone ever did it, but I don't care for that mechanic these days. I also like the fatigued idea if it is kept where it is an aoe. Personally, though, I like just making it a single target, touch spell.A random thing... but I was recently playing Icewind Dale, which is based on AD&D 2nd ed rules. Since they couldn't enforce the aging effect haste had in a video game very easily, they made the spell render all characters fatigued when the duration elapsed. Fatigue is hard to heal... easier than aging, though, and could make it more of an issue to consider whether it's worth casting or not.
Other ways to balance it if you think it's too powerful for a 3rd level spell:
1. Make it a 4th level spell
2. Eliminate the AC bonus and Reflex save bonus
3. Make it require an expensive material component
4. Make it affect only one creature. That way, they want to spam it to speed up the whole party, they can, but it will cost more resources (were I to change it, this is what I'd do, personally)
I made it a single target spell, though it became more of a personal buff now with most people being able to cast it.
The spell is horribly overpowered :
- +1 dodge, attack rolls, reflex saves on the party is probably a good second level spell, it should be noted that the bonuses are easily stackable with other buffs.
- 30' extra move is a great benefit, probably worth a 3rd level spell in itself, think of it as a mass expeditious retreat.
- An extra attack at highest bonus on a full attack is simply great, but wait it is on the entire party + summons too, this would be at least a 4th level effect in my book, more appropriate for 5th.
The spell as a whole could be a level 6 spell and everybody would still cast it every chance they get, because it is likely to double party damage ourput, every single round and helps avoid a significant ammount of damage over it's duration as well.
haste is a touch spell, so unless the party is in fireball formation, they need to waste some actions getting next to the spellcaster.Haste is a wonderful spell, but I don't think it is too powerful
Haste is actually a close range spell affecting X targets, no two of which are more than 30' apart.
If Haste is a common combat buff, the melee types will presumably hold action to get the buff, then take their actions... no wasted actions, and no need to sit in a 'please hurt us' formation.
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How about you just have an enemy wizard counter spell it, or have someone cast Dispel Magic and get rid of it? Do something in game to deal with what you see as an in game problem. Use ambushes, traps, puzzles and all the other tools that you have at your disposal that aren't fights.
Haste is hands down one of the best third level spells a wizard/sorcerer/whatever can caste. It is in no way too powerful for a 3rd level spell.
How about you just have an enemy wizard counter spell it, or have someone cast Dispel Magic and get rid of it? Do something in game to deal with what you see as an in game problem. Use ambushes, traps, puzzles and all the other tools that you have at your disposal that aren't fights.
Haste is hands down one of the best third level spells a wizard/sorcerer/whatever can caste. It is in no way too powerful for a 3rd level spell.
Compared to which spell, I nerfed it to a single target casting and it is still the favorite 3rd level spell, for obvious reasons, it is likely to double the effectiveness of a single player in combat.
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Compared to which spell, I nerfed it to a single target casting and it is still the favorite 3rd level spell, for obvious reasons, it is likely to double the effectiveness of a single player in combat.
Slow, Fly, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Suggestion. Really just take your pick.
Haste is a wonderful spell for the game, it lets more then just the wizard/bard be the one shining at the table by helping the melee and ranged characters be more effective when you could just be ending encounters with other spells. If your players are working together that's a good thing.
To the people sighting the 1st/2nd edition version. It did age you a year but it was also a lot more powerful. I dont remember the statistics, but it granted more than one extra attack around when full attacking.
IIRC, in 1st ed it doubled your melee attacks.
AND there was no clause that prevented it from stacking with Potions of Speed, which also doubled your number of melee attacks.
A Hasted and Sped Type V was therefore one of the nastiest melee monsters in the game, as per RAW.
To the people sighting the 1st/2nd edition version. It did age you a year but it was also a lot more powerful. I dont remember the statistics, but it granted more than one extra attack around when full attacking.IIRC, in 1st ed it doubled your melee attacks.
AND there was no clause that prevented it from stacking with Potions of Speed, which also doubled your number of melee attacks.
A Hasted and Sped Type V was therefore one of the nastiest melee monsters in the game, as per RAW.
Yep, as a 1e/2e DM I've chopped many a character into tiny bits using a hasted marilith.
I really don't find haste to be overpowered. If the OP is as serious in his complaint as he sounds, perhaps one way to mitigate its use in combat would be to assign a penalty to its use. The original "age 1 year" is too harsh given its current strength. I suppose one could append the spell so that those under its effects become fatigued (or even exhausted, if the OP thinks it's that bad) when the spell ends, to simulate the extra energy expended during its use.
1. Make it a 4th level spell
4. Make it affect only one creature. That way, they want to spam it to speed up the whole party, they can, but it will cost more resources (were I to change it, this is what I'd do, personally)
I'm of the mindset that Paizo's admission on this issue was apparent with the introduction of Words of Power, where Haste is single target at 3rd level and mass at 6th, but requires a boosted Target Word. That's the context where I find the spell balanced, myself.
Say what you will about the lack of options in WoP, but it's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better balanced than standard casting.
In our group (I DM) we have 6 players. The bard is the haste caster. In the round she casts haste she can also use inspire courage (move action at current level) to drop the buff bomb on a party of nearly all melee combatants (only the party cleric isn't much of a meleer). It's their go-to spell early on in an encounter. And it doesn't matter if they are immersed within the ranks of the enemy, either, as it is a targetable aoe spell. If it affected those nearest the target first (i.e., was not selectable) then it might be less frequently used. But I still prefer the single target, touch spell approach if I was going to redo it (I have not at this point).
Uh, seeing as a intelligently built melee easily out damages primary casters I think haste is simply gilding the lily. Melee does not need magic to shine, but magic shines allot brighter with melee.
To the people sighting the 1st/2nd edition version. It did age you a year but it was also a lot more powerful. I dont remember the statistics, but it granted more than one extra attack around when full attacking.IIRC, in 1st ed it doubled your melee attacks.
AND there was no clause that prevented it from stacking with Potions of Speed, which also doubled your number of melee attacks.
A Hasted and Sped Type V was therefore one of the nastiest melee monsters in the game, as per RAW.
I thought this was the case as well, I just didnt want to over state how good it was if I missremembered. I recall the days of characters getting 7 or 8 attacks in a round from haste...it was also higher level back then I believe as well maybe 5th?. When it got super nerfed for 3rd they also brought down to 3rd level.
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In 3.0 it was single target, but also let you cast 2 spells in a round :). They changed it after a survey said most people would still take it as a 9th level spell.
So:
1) if haste did not exist and was printed as a new spell, what would the maximum level be you would mem it as? This includes the haste-like spells not existing either (like the new 4th level cleric haste).
2) if haste was a single-target 3rd level spell would you still memorize it? We'll give it a close range clause, no need to reduce to touch for this example.
I think #1 is 6 or 7, and 2 is probably, but it wouldn't be guaranteed like it is now. Sadly paizo isn't big on eratta like this.
I think there should be a 3rd level haste that is single target; 6th level that is the current haste (mass haste), and 9th level that grants you a full additional standard action per turn (allowing 2 spells or move-and-full-attack).
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Snip...a lot of stuff
It's 3rd level because, back in the dawn of time, Gary Gygax made it a 3rd level spell.
Gygax also made the spell age your PC 10 years every time it was cast on a character. So people tended to use it only when really necessary. Slow was more useful to memorize really.
I am one of those wizards who fills up all his slots with haste. It really is an amazing spell for a martial party and is one of the few spells that remains useful through 20th level.
There are lots of ways to deal with haste: anti-magic, dispel, slow, difficult terrain, counterspell with slow. There are more. A great way to make it less useful is to have bottlenecks where a few enemies can hold up the PCs. This gives enemy spell casters time to buff or summon or whatever. One fun thing is to have a lot of traps between you and the enemy. If they have an anti-ranged spell up too then the only way to get to them is through the trap minefield. All the traps are debuffs.
If you use a different tactic every time then the spell will be less useful and less frequently memorized.
On these boards and the D&D boards DMs who come and complain about a particular spell or tactic are themselves often stuck on their own spell or tactic. By changing your own tactics you can invalidate their tactic. Expand your horizons to give your players a more interesting game.
My solution to Haste was different.
1) Remove the AC and Reflex save bonuses.
2) It is a mobile point radius effect, where the fixed point is centered on the caster - it has its benefits for everyone who was within 30' of the caster when it was cast...but if they leave that radius, the spell effect ends. This replaces the number of maximum characters it can effect. It also something that benefits the enemies if they're close enough to the caster when it goes off...
Making Slow work the same way, is, unfortunately, a death sentence for most casters...
I made it a single target spell, though it became more of a personal buff now with most people being able to cast it.
The spell is horribly overpowered :
- +1 dodge, attack rolls, reflex saves on the party is probably a good second level spell, it should be noted that the bonuses are easily stackable with other buffs.
- 30' extra move is a great benefit, probably worth a 3rd level spell in itself, think of it as a mass expeditious retreat.
- An extra attack at highest bonus on a full attack is simply great, but wait it is on the entire party + summons too, this would be at least a 4th level effect in my book, more appropriate for 5th.
While I don't agree necessarily with the levels you assign to each of these effects, I can definitely agree that each of them likely exceeds a first-level spell and together, the three of them certainly exceed a third-level spell capacity.
I'll echo others in the solution of making the spell affect only a single target instead of the 30'-range group. Making the spell fatigue participants (possibly even the caster) only really has an impact if you're always prepared to avoid the 15-minute workday, and the aging makes it too punitive in my opinion for what you get -- even Wish doesn't age casters anymore.
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I have no issues with the spell. I actually wish my players would use it more so I did not have to hold back on encounters. The spell is probably with a 4th level slot, but if I go reassigning every spell that I think could go up or down a slot I would have to do more work than I want to do.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My solution to Haste was different.
1) Remove the AC and Reflex save bonuses.
2) It is a mobile point radius effect, where the fixed point is centered on the caster - it has its benefits for everyone who was within 30' of the caster when it was cast...but if they leave that radius, the spell effect ends. This replaces the number of maximum characters it can effect. It also something that benefits the enemies if they're close enough to the caster when it goes off...Making Slow work the same way, is, unfortunately, a death sentence for most casters...
Sounds almost like Haste from the Dragon Age game (note, not a slam, just an observation).
Have people forgotten that Haste in 1.e also had the potential to kill the target?
My solution to Haste was different.
1) Remove the AC and Reflex save bonuses.
2) It is a mobile point radius effect, where the fixed point is centered on the caster - it has its benefits for everyone who was within 30' of the caster when it was cast...but if they leave that radius, the spell effect ends. This replaces the number of maximum characters it can effect. It also something that benefits the enemies if they're close enough to the caster when it goes off...Making Slow work the same way, is, unfortunately, a death sentence for most casters...
Sounds almost like Haste from the Dragon Age game (note, not a slam, just an observation).
Have people forgotten that Haste in 1.e also had the potential to kill the target?
The 2nd edition version was not nice either from what I hear. I think you aged a year every time it was used.
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The problem is not so much Haste, but the overall engine of 3.5/PF is really friendly to players. As a GM, you'd have to come up with much more creative ways to handle all of the PC's advantages.
As usual, the best thing to defeat a party is another party.
If you EVER have the chance to play PvP with 2 groups of players, TAKE IT. It's so much fun as the party is amazed how good the other party is.
Haste is easy to counter by anyone with a net or tangle bag, not to mention the various Slow, Dispel, terrain selection methods. Sure, the character might still get the +1 att/AC, but if he's all tangled up he won't get the extra land speed or attack. Furthermore, the extra attack only works if you are making a full attack, which means that in any given round you must select between those benefits.
The caster also has many 3rd lvl spell options to wreak havoc, ranging from lobbing a Fireball (the standard choice), Black Tentacles (entire areas of the field impassable), or even a Confusion spell (incite groups of your enemies to attack each other), just to name a few. Even Fly can completely change the tactics of a fight when you can make any member of your party (or even the entire party) immune to anything but ranged attacks, not to mention the bonus they gain from having higher ground (+2 on atk, dmg, and AC, I think). Heck, even a Mad Monkey's spell can devastate small groups of opponents by breaking all their equipment, essentially leaving them with nothing but the tattered remnants of clothing on their back.
All of these are currently 3rd lvl spells, and as such I really cannot agree that Haste is overpowered. And if you believe that the only way to correct this imbalance is to remove or re-assign the spell to another level you will have a hard time convincing me that all the other "good" spells out there like Scare, Rage, and Silence should not also be treated similarly.
While I do not mean any insult to any of you who disagree, my point is simply that this is an overreaction to the problem. The bigger problem is not knowing how to handle these spells in a way that does not make them inconsequential.
Remember, 9/10 times your PCs are going to the enemy, and even when the enemy sets up an ambush they get to select the terrain. While it would be unreasonable to assume they always know which spells your PCs have prepared, it is reasonable to say that if your PC's are known for using a given tactic your NPCs should be able to prepare for it with scrolls, wands, traps, terrain, or even by just throwing a net over your speedy PCs.
However, if you wanted to apply the fatigued condition after the Haste spell wore off, by all means. At least that solution is flavorful.
How about only making one of those advantages available per round like blessing of fervor (you can even add the metamagic stuff so casters can benefit as well). This prevents your barbarian from running around the entire line and nuking the caster as badly as he did.
Aside from that if your players are having fun I would not worry about it too much, remember this isn't DM vs Party, you are all working together to create a story and kill some math.