I think I'll write an universal FAQ thread for DMs having problems, and about how to handle them. Your examples of cheese are so stupid that I can not honestly say if people who read them in the FAQ will know they happened in real life, before they read it afterhand.
That would be so appreciated.
You need to stop running this game. Immediately. Never associate with those players again, as they're a blight on the gaming community and don't deserve to have a game run for them.
Take a break for a while, play in some games, read up some more on rules, and then start a game again in the future with a clear list of things that you're house ruling in or out. If people don't like it, they don't have to play. It's as simple as that. Your game, your rules. Just make sure you make it blatantly clear before the first session starts what your intentions are.
The most important thing about being a GM, because it's generally a crappy job to have, is to make sure YOU are also having a good time. If you're not enjoying yourself, you need to stop immediately and fix it. Otherwise you'll burn yourself out and probably not want to run or play anything for a long time.
PS: Multi-classing isn't a bad thing. Even level dips here and there aren't. As long as people stay true to their characters, it shouldn't be an issue. The problem is running a game for a group of total assess who are going to twist the rules to suit their needs.
Not to harsh on you, but allowing a resource - the ARG PLAYTEST - that you yourself don't even have access to, nor have read apparently, just is not a good idea for ANY GM. Would you think GM'ing a PRPG game when you don't even know the Core Rules is a good idea? Same reason why you need to have a handle on all the material in the game. A plain Vanilla PRPG game is more than enjoyable, so if that's what you're comfortable with, that's probably what should be allowed in your game.
I didn't want to allow it, because it's a playtest and I don't have it. I got overruled. That seems to happen a lot in my games.
We've got the Sorcerer Druid who gets unarmed damage and regular damage and flurry of blows with all natural attacks, the Sorcerer/Zen Archer/Arcane Archer who can cast multiple spells per round through the bow as a free action (and only the first one counts against spells per day), an Inquisitor who's bane instakills everything and who certainly doesn't act Lawful Good, and a Ranger with four arms (Gods damned Advanced Race Guide playtest) who duel wields longbows (and still pales in comparison to the Sorcerer).ARG playtest does not have 4 arm support for race creations
He's a lying cheating munchkin.
Insta-ban.
That's not in there? Does that mean there is no racial hatred attribute that grants a death attack, either? It's making the Inquisitor pretty dangerous when combined with Bane. Does this mean half the racial options my players have are illegal?
Does someone know where I can get a copy of the ARG playtest?
here's hatred
Hatred (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose twosubtypes of humanoids or one creature type other than
humanoid. Members of this race gain a +1 bonus on attack
rolls against creatures of these subtypes or this type.
It's not a death attack.
Not to harsh on you, but allowing a resource - the ARG PLAYTEST - that you yourself don't even have access to, nor have read apparently, just is not a good idea for ANY GM. Would you think GM'ing a PRPG game when you don't even know the Core Rules is a good idea? Same reason why you need to have a handle on all the material in the game. A plain Vanilla PRPG game is more than enjoyable, so if that's what you're comfortable with, that's probably what should be allowed in your game.I didn't want to allow it, because it's a playtest and I don't have it. I got overruled. That seems to happen a lot in my games.
Here's what you say
"If I don't have it, you don't have it, NO IF'S ANDS OR BUTS."
We've got the Sorcerer Druid who gets unarmed damage and regular damage and flurry of blows with all natural attacks, the Sorcerer/Zen Archer/Arcane Archer who can cast multiple spells per round through the bow as a free action (and only the first one counts against spells per day), an Inquisitor who's bane instakills everything and who certainly doesn't act Lawful Good, and a Ranger with four arms (Gods damned Advanced Race Guide playtest) who duel wields longbows (and still pales in comparison to the Sorcerer).ARG playtest does not have 4 arm support for race creations
He's a lying cheating munchkin.
Insta-ban.
That's not in there? Does that mean there is no racial hatred attribute that grants a death attack, either? It's making the Inquisitor pretty dangerous when combined with Bane. Does this mean half the racial options my players have are illegal?
Does someone know where I can get a copy of the ARG playtest?
here's hatred
Hatred (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose two
subtypes of humanoids or one creature type other than
humanoid. Members of this race gain a +1 bonus on attack
rolls against creatures of these subtypes or this type.It's not a death attack.
...I want to go curl up in the corner and never, ever come out.
If I were you, and Those were my players I would say,
"**** you and the horse you road in on," and flip them the bird.
These players are disrespectful, lying, cheating, power-gaming, manipulative, a**-Holes.
Drop them like the sack of s*** they are.
Second thought
I would crush their PCs with MY Ultra broken character who is CR 100, then leave.
It sounds like you enjoy GMing, but you've got a set of players basically raking you over the coals, coercing you into the rules they want to play by.
It isn't easy to say 'no' to a group you're invested in (I've got 3 kids, trust me;)) but the GM is the end-all be-all when it comes to rules- that's the Game Master's job in the group.
My players are smarter than me when it comes to rules, to be honest; they help me out when I'm stuck. We play together, and they let me know when they've misread a rule themselves. But there's NEVER a player's vote to overrule the DM. Never has been. Small circumstantial hiccups are taken in stride and dealt with retroactively.
When it stops being fun, you need to stop. Maybe it seems like an imposing action, but at some point you, as GM/Generally Decent Person need to hold up your hands and say, "I'm done. You've made this no fun anymore. Bye now."
I realize this is a rehash of previous postings, but I'd like to add maybe your players need to grow up a bit and realize they're ruining what should be a good time had by all with their immaturity.
3 pages, really. pfft. Best wishes to you, keep enjoying the game and don't let the bastards grind you down!
Kelsey,
Move to the Saint Paul, MN area and spend Sunday afternoons in Pathfinder Society with a crowd of 99% decent human beings while you relax, have fun, and enjoy life.
Unfortunately, I LOVE homebrew and house rules to death (which makes my uber-rule PCs especially annoying), so Society play would never work for me.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Unfortunately, I LOVE homebrew and house rules to death (which makes my uber-rule PCs especially annoying), so Society play would never work for me.Kelsey,
Move to the Saint Paul, MN area and spend Sunday afternoons in Pathfinder Society with a crowd of 99% decent human beings while you relax, have fun, and enjoy life.
Are you sure? Because it sounds like your grief is largely centered around people NOT following the rules, and therefore being in an environment where you have something to lean on and relax your guard a bit might be a nice respite.
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Kelsey,
These players are seriously taking advantage of you and ABUSING you -- as a GM, if not as a person.
Like others have said, get away from these jerks. You deserve to have fun as GM just as much as they do as players. Find some people to play with who are just a nice as you are.
It might help to not just look for players for a game. Maybe try to just meet some people and get to know them as friends first. If you only meet people at game stores, then join a group as a player first to get to know them. I know you like GMing, but it's important to KNOW people and their playstyles.
Good luck!
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If it really bothers you, TPK is the answer. Nuke'em from orbit, its the only way.....
"The overdeity, lord of all deities that were and are, descends from the greater fabric of reality, warping the very laws of nature that your world depends on as they do so. They appear before you in a visage you can no longer describe or comprehend and your soul is scrubbed from existence instantly but, as time has lost its meaning, it is an eternity. The only thought that successfully stabilizes in your mind before being overtaken by pain is 'This is my punishment.' And then, at the far edge of infinity, it is over."
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Just wanted to re-iterate, in case it got lost, that multiclassing -- even by dipping -- isn't in any way the culprit here. The problem is that players are flat-out brazenly ignoring most of the rules and just obnoxiously doing whatever they want. I could make a single-classed Commoner be totally overpowered if I convinced the DM at gunpoint that I somehow had access to tactical nuclear weapons on demand.
Assuming you follow the excellent advice above and assemble a new group (preferably vetting them first over coffee, before letting them join the game), you might try running a core-only game, rather than banning multiclassing. Set the rule right up front that any game rule you're not sure about, the player has to show you in the Core Rulebook, and your ruling on any interpretation of that rule stands -- no argument.
Unfortunately, I LOVE homebrew and house rules to death (which makes my uber-rule PCs especially annoying), so Society play would never work for me.Kelsey,
Move to the Saint Paul, MN area and spend Sunday afternoons in Pathfinder Society with a crowd of 99% decent human beings while you relax, have fun, and enjoy life.
I totally feel you there. But definitely ditch the current group. Or end your current campaign with them, take a few weeks worth of break, and come back starting from scratch with a list of your house rules printed out and ready to go. And with a new set of balls of steel.
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...I want to go curl up in the corner and never, ever come out.We've got the Sorcerer Druid who gets unarmed damage and regular damage and flurry of blows with all natural attacks, the Sorcerer/Zen Archer/Arcane Archer who can cast multiple spells per round through the bow as a free action (and only the first one counts against spells per day), an Inquisitor who's bane instakills everything and who certainly doesn't act Lawful Good, and a Ranger with four arms (Gods damned Advanced Race Guide playtest) who duel wields longbows (and still pales in comparison to the Sorcerer).ARG playtest does not have 4 arm support for race creations
He's a lying cheating munchkin.
Insta-ban.
That's not in there? Does that mean there is no racial hatred attribute that grants a death attack, either? It's making the Inquisitor pretty dangerous when combined with Bane. Does this mean half the racial options my players have are illegal?
Does someone know where I can get a copy of the ARG playtest?
here's hatred
Hatred (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Choose two
subtypes of humanoids or one creature type other than
humanoid. Members of this race gain a +1 bonus on attack
rolls against creatures of these subtypes or this type.It's not a death attack.
here's the fun part about being a DM, your player's don't have to like your decision, but if they don't let you enforce it, you simply close your book, stand up, and tell them to go find another DM. They don't have to like how your changing things, and they can present a valid argument, but at the end of the day, YOU are the DM, and THEY are the PLAYERS, stand up to them. If they persist in their prattling, or insist on using the idea anyway, then kick them out of the game, or yet again, leave.
As for "level dipping" I use it to make interesting characters, and sometimes it hurts me, and sometimes it helps me. If they do something super powerful, just counter with more powerful creatures. If it kills them, it kills them. Stop being the "passive victim" DM, and start showing them if they want to get clever, you'll just get clever.
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Squee smell something rotten and for once it not Squee's feet or breath.
Squee think you maybe tell Squee where your filthy Gnome-blooded players be and let Squee teach them lesson.
Thought and smell of Squee roasting munkin-sluggs over hot coals makes Squee hungry...
Kelsey you poor thing. Honestly the more I read, the more I want to believe you are a troll making this all up.
Damn.
These are up there with the douchiest players ever. Seriously, they are this ][ far behind the rapey guys.
I feel for you so much.
I mean… damn.
You don’t have to take this s@!#.
I’m pretty sure seriously promoting violence could get me kicked from these boards or worse.
So…lets just say… Tell your craziest redneck friend (or ghetto friend, whatever works for where you live) about how these a#~@$%@s are treating you. Then invite him/her to enjoy a game with you guys and just let nature take its course.
Good luck.
Damn.
Back in the day (yea i know Im old) used to be only the DM had a set of the rules (usually what made him the DM).
What you are playing with is a party full of "rules lawyers". Personality types that get banned from most people's tables.
Rule number 1) players dont tell YOU/over rule you on, ANYTHING.
Rule number 2) it's not a democracy, see rule number 1
Rule number 3) if you dont like rule number 1, don't play.
Now, that might find you a DM with no players, if that's ok with you, put your foot down. If it's not, then you are going to have to give a little and let some people do what they want (to a certain extent).
This game has gone through many editions, older editions used to require extensive down time, expenditure of gold peices and the tedious role playing of going through finding a master to level up. (all good fun in my book).
Later editions left this out, not because it was a rules change, but the recognition was there that many many different game worlds existed, and to some extent every world is "house ruled" here and there.
specifically pathfinder is world neutral, Page 9 of the core rule book, straight up, point your players to it, if they want to thump the rule book and say "show me where it says that"....erm page 9.
You don't have to let them level up mid adventure/quest. You can disallow books with rules sets in it you are not familiar with. Maybe in your world there are no gun slingers?
Take Dragonlance as an example, that was an entirely alternate world, where obvious house rules existed. Now before youngins chime in, the books were based on an actual running campaign world, there were real world players whose characters were caramon, raistlin and so forth.
The Dungeon masters (there were two) added things (like kender and draconians, and knights of solamnia) that didn't exist anywhere in any rules set, and took away things (like healing/clerics). Why? because they made the world, they made the rules.
Players don't tell DMs the rules. It just doesnt work that way.
Now on that note, someone made the feat to allow a wisdom based sorceror, probably for the explicit purpose of a monk/sorc or wis/sorc multi-class largely because most people don't lie on their dice roles or whine when DMs dont let them have 35 point builds. Which is to say, to make said build, they usually dont have the stats to make a character with two good casting stats.
But just because someone came up with the feat doesn't mean you have to allow it.
Here's an example: Quick draw annoys me. I don't allow out, or rather, I let everyone with a +4 bab have it. so basically I alter the rules to say that if you need quick draw as a prereq for something, instead you need a bab of 4, and if you have a bab of 4 you can do what quick draw allows (sort of getting a free feat). I just don't like the whole "I drop my bow and draw my sword" thing in the middle of my game.
However, I also rule that once you drop your bow, you can't just go back to it, now you need to actually take action/role play getting it back.
example: archer boy drops bow, draws sword. Has 4 bab, all is fine.
Enemy is running away he now wants to go back to the bow to get him, meh...what did you do with it? oh wait it's over there on the ground. etc etc etc.
That's a basic example of a house rule.
Usually, most tables agree on certain house rules. So "no multiclassing" is going to go over as well as "no healers".
But "we role play level ups at this table" shouldnt be that hard. How is your sorceror going to get a level of monk, if you have never met a monk and don't know how to find one, or for that matter even know about existence of said monk?
That way, in game, if you want to make something rare and/or mysterious, have the players search out something (like a monk), they just aren't on every street corner hanging out getting drunk.
If say, the characters concept IS in fact a sorceror/monk, (example I had a character concept that was a gunslinger/inquisitor) an you are starting at level one, he/she has to pick one of those classes to start, but you shouldn't require him to find a master to get the second class when he takes it, as he was techincailly, already a sorceror monk, yet his spells/bloodline didnt manifest fully etc etc or visa versa.
But certain new feats, archetypes, spells or prestige classes (hell knight is great example of this) may require patronage.
THIS IS ALL UP TO THE DM.
I don't know why players (and so many people on this forum) have such a hard time with this fact. I actually blame it on MMOs.
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Get better with rules. It's tough, but you have to if you are going to DM.
Even though you are the DM, it is not necessarily "your game". A game does not exist without players. It's tempting to just be tough and start really enforcing the rules or be a hard ass, but that doesn't really solve the problem. If all of the players really enjoy playing really powerful characters, it's not insane to go with it yourself, and just make it all really over the top. Lots of players enjoy that type of stuff.
You should reconsider Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you cannot enforce the rules, or if the players are that difficult to deal with, something HAS to change.
Finally, PLAY. Don't DM for a while.
I went through the same thing then I finally put my foot down, the cost, the problem player walked and took one of our group with him. I have a smaller group now but the ones that are left have a lot more fun and this is what gaming is all about.
So you limit weak character concepts and intentionally kill off characters?
Don't you mean breaking those players in half? because pushing someone around like that certainly tempts me >.<...I want to go curl up in the corner and never, ever come out.I want to break these PCs in half with extreme prejudice.
Maybe Squee tempt Kyrt, Squee needs someone to flank with...
Stuff.
Players don't tell DMs the rules. It just doesnt work that way.
Actually DM's don't tell player's the rules either.
Seriously it's not like there are no options for people outside of playing games with DMs and the more you issue random rulings without talking to your players about it the more likely your players will either
A) Leave while telling you to go f* yourself.
B) Beat you with the heavy ass rulebooks that they bought to play the game.
C) Decide RPing is pointless since they have no say in it and go read a book or play video games which are essentially as interactive.
If you want to have a perfect world of your own design where you never have to deal with other people having ideas of how things ought to play out go write a book. If you want to DM work with your players and don't be a dick.
False - the GMG clearly encourages and outlines ways to create your own world and how to change things to how you the GM want them to be in YOUR world.
If a GM doesn't want something in their game - they have ALWAYS been encouraged to either fix it or exclude it. The CRB and all other supplements can be cherry picked so long as there is a clear written set of Table rules to explain where things differ from the books.
Sorry Squee, no goblin is pretty enough to tempt me, not even a golden one.
Oh, you meant tempt me to break in half? That's based on behavior, and flanking (even with sneak attack) isn't behavior of the right sort :P
Typical long-shanks. Squee will just go burn the filthy Gnome-munchkins without you - to think Squee was willing to share big fire and glory in song!
Good Stuff
You know - I still find myself adhering to the 2e version of dual classing - old habits die really hard and even though I can dip - I try to plan in a more story friendly manner. It's just one of those things I liked about that edition. YMMV.
Kelsey - don't get so down on yourself - those players are total tools. You have gotten a ton of good advice on this thread so I say that we move on to mocking these jerks or helping you find a group to chat play with (with or without a VTT. I know some groups even have Vent or TeamSpeak servers so it makes it easy as pie. :)
My tabletop groups won't let me do anything without a three page legalese essay about what it is I'm doing.
They sound like jerks.
Seriously.Outside of game is one thing, and I'm sure some or all of them are fine people away from the table. This is beyond the pale, in my opinion. The game is supposed to be fun for most or all the folks at the table, and the GM counts as two for purposes of this calculation. I don't necessarily fancy your opinion on level dipping, myself. I don't like it much either, but I don't hate it to the point of outright banishment. It's your game at the end of the day. Why don't you just take a break for a while and let one of them GM? It has the potential to be a Win/Win experience. You either see them melt down and come crying back to you willing to accept your decisions without so much "running through the proper channels," or they enjoy a game it sounds like you would probably hate and you can find some new, less litigious players.
Have fun, don't forget to mail their heads to their families.Typical long-shanks. Squee will just go burn the filthy Gnome-munchkins without you - to think Squee was willing to share big fire and glory in song!Sorry Squee, no goblin is pretty enough to tempt me, not even a golden one.
Oh, you meant tempt me to break in half? That's based on behavior, and flanking (even with sneak attack) isn't behavior of the right sort :P
Only after Squee savors and munches eyeballs. They make better snacks then slug worms.
I did find a new group. The problem is, all the bad stuff is happening again. Personally, I'm starting to think this is probably with me, not them, because it's happening with multiple groups.
You "can't" change other people's behavior. You can change your own.
You have two major paths with this issue: saying "no" and saying "yes". I've learned over the years that a good DM finds ways to say "yes". I'm not talking about ridiculous rules-breaking questions such as "can I have an ancient red dragon cohort for free?" I'm talking about questions such as "can I take a level dip in monk, which the book says I can?"
Hear me out.
You cited two reasons you don't want to see level-dips. First, you said they "don't make sense". My advice is to disregard that. Shrug it off. There's so much going on in this game that is fantastic and nonsensical (owlbears, for instance) that realism - in this case - isn't worth bucking player desires for. Second, you said your players come up with overpowered combinations. THAT is what you need to focus on.
Bad DM says: "no".
Good DM says: "okay" and then increases the CR of every bad guy by 1 without increasing the assigned XP.
Problem solved. Players aren't overpowered, they're happy, and you've got what you really want.
You made a comment about having difficulty being assertive without feeling like you're being... nasty. An important way to deal with that is to recognize when you're fighting battles you shouldn't be. Level-dips don't make your players sad. They make you sad. So turn it around so it makes you happy. It justifies you being able to squeeze in owlbears with a level of monk. Or stirges with a level of rogue. << Seriously, think about it.
"No" gives your players nowhere to go with you but argument. Hence the treatises and legalese. Find a way for you both to get what you want and your tables will be a lot more peaceful. I promise.
Unfortunately, I LOVE homebrew and house rules to death (which makes my uber-rule PCs especially annoying), so Society play would never work for me.Kelsey,
Move to the Saint Paul, MN area and spend Sunday afternoons in Pathfinder Society with a crowd of 99% decent human beings while you relax, have fun, and enjoy life.I want to repeat an option I mentioned upthread that was never addressed that solves this issue.
Kelsey, I have a question. Have you considered chat gaming (possibly with [or without] a gametable)?
I have a couple PBPs about to start here.