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The Sorcerer's had the Zen Archer archetype and the bloodline that allows Wisdom casting, and took levels in Arcane Archer. The Druid loved to wildshape and unleash the most horrid flurry of blows ever.
EDIT: what was overpowered about Monk dipped with Druid and Sorcerer exactly?
First Monks can only flurry with unarmed strikes, claws, bites, tentacles and other natural attacks aren't allowed.
Secondly, you need to tell your players you aren't interested in running a munchkin's dream game, you want to tell a story about classic character archetypes facing dangers.
Also remind them power gaming is a sucker's game. They only have finite resources, you have infinite tarrasques. The only reason their characters aren't dead is because you kindly play to the spirit of the cooperative story teller. If previous adversarial GMs taught them to play this way, that's unfortunate but you don't *want* to kill their characters. If you did, then all the level dips in the world could not keep them safe. The rules exist to facilitate a story, not the other way around.
What pixel cube said is completely true. The game is cooperative, not competitive. Your players are not playing AGAINST you and you need to explain this. Powergaming doesnt help anyone.
They want to dip into monk, fine, treat the party's effective level as +2 and make the fights harder so it remains a challenge.
Same goes for you. What is it about the overpowered players that upsets you? Ignoring story for the moment, why do you care if the druid has 43 AC at level 5? Hit him with some wisdom draining poison or throw a metal net over him (actually, heh, capture him and lock him in a steel breastplate - that'll teach'em!)
If they are just burning through content, make content harder. Do more RP skill challenges. AC 43 doesn't help during a formal ball or sneaking into the Chancellor's office while the rest of the party runs distraction.
No non-combat challenges. That always ends up with at least half a dozen NPCs getting stabbed.
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Nope, the spells were all free actions, and only the first one per round counted against his spells per day.
...Gods, I'm an idiot.
Don't worry, you're not an idiot. You've already stated that they shout louder and longer, and they love to shout to get their way. What that means is they are disrespectful people.
It's best to just stop playing with disrespectful people.
Let's focus on methods to find better players. How did you find this new group? Let's see what can be done differently to filter out the disrespectful players first.
...Gods, I'm an idiot.
No. Stop that.
Being walked on by loud obnoxious players doesn't make you an idiot. They are the idiots; you're just the unfortunate person that got in their power-tripping way.
That's another rules argument I lost.The DM cannot lose an argument unless he allows himself to lose it.
"This is how I am ruling it. If you do not like it, you do not have to play."
Then they just yell really loud and I end up folding.
As has been said before Kelsey, there is no unarmed damage bonus. There is a flat unarmed damage value which ONLY counts on Unarmed Strikes. There is a feat that 'could' conceivably (though the rules are ambiguous) allow the Monk Unarmed Damage on Natural Attacks, but it's a feat they would have to take and get your explicit permission to use that way.That's another rules argument I lost.
He lost 3 levels of sorcerer, 3 levels of spellcasting progression, and could not Full Attack with Imbue Arrow because the spellcasting takes the normal action and you shoot the arrow as part of that. (So if he was willing to eat the +4 spell levels he could Quicken a second Imbued Arrow)Nope, the spells were all free actions, and only the first one per round counted against his spells per day.
...Gods, I'm an idiot.
Don't be so hard on yourself. Finding a proper group takes time. I left mine because of personal reasons that had nothing to do with the game, so I know how's like.
But you know what we should do? We should turn this thread into a "Hey, guess what crazy s$*+ my players want to do when I DM". You already shared yours (Zen archery and unarmed damage) but I feel like there's more. Let's all have a laugh on the stuff they tried to pull off with a straight face instead than get all depressed.
I know that every GM has been through there at least once. Come on, share your war story.
No non-combat challenges. That always ends up with at least half a dozen NPCs getting stabbed.
That is fine. You get them arrested. They run, you seal the city. They scream about how things are unfair, you say actions beget consequences and one of those guys you killed was the King's son. They break out, you hit them with a few 18 level assassins, TPK, game over, you are finally free! Yay!
Or you know, quit early.
Maybe you need to find a community with more reasonable players.
Stabbing a half dozen NPCs in a non-combat situation should probably result in the PCs in the town dungeon with anti-casting gags and manacles on casters, or bloodied and on the run thru sewers (if they are lucky). As GM, you have every armed combatant in the WORLD under your control, after all. NOWHERE is there written any limit of encounters per day, even if you feel restricted to follow CR:APL 'suggestions' as the rules give.
I think you should find better approaches to find better players... I guess your own friends aren't much into it?
I would say it's worth checking out this board for players in your area looking for games.
It's probably easiest to find other player with you joining them as a player, since that's less work/investment on your part. Most players are happy to find somebody else willing to GM, so once you know more players (and you have sussed them out as to how they like to play/interact with each other) if you offer to GM a campaign you will 99% likely have a new set of players.
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I go to the game store and ask around.Kelsey:
Find new players. These aren't working for you. They won't work for you. Like a bad relationship, you just have to get out.
The next question: How do you go about finding players? There are methods that lead to finding good players, and methods that lead to finding bad players. Not all methods are available to everyone, so it's possible you're out of luck, but the issue of finding good players is really the problem you're having.
Yup, if you start and end there, it's a bona-fide Bad Way. Most of the good players are already involved in other games. Nowadays, many of them don't have enough time available to show up to the local game store and look for games.
But, let's assume for the moment that the local game store is your best option to finding new players. First, you should screen them. I haven't played in a group that didn't involve a screening process first. Usually, it's nothing more than just sitting around, meeting and talking. Meet in a diner or something, or talk out in the open. See what they talk about. See how they address you. Do they treat you with respect, look for ways to combine their ideas with yours in interesting ways? Good players. Do they ignore your ideas and keep presenting their own? Are they rude to the waiters? Bad players. Turn the bad players away.
Do you live in a densely populated area? You might have better luck asking online in your area.
No non-combat challenges. That always ends up with at least half a dozen NPCs getting stabbed.That is fine. You get them arrested. They run, you seal the city. They scream about how things are unfair, you say actions beget consequences and one of those guys you killed was the King's son. They break out, you hit them with a few 18 level assassins, TPK, game over, you are finally free! Yay!
That's a bit elaborate. I've always been a fan of "Guess what, ROCK FALLS, EVERYONE DIES" myself.
If your players are doing something that seems incredibly overpowered toss a question about it on the rules forums. Like the kung fu chopping t rex chances are pretty good its already against the rules
Also keep in mind that a player with a good handle on the rules can make some seriously powerful characters, and that they will seem very "overpowered" if the rest of your group is a little light in the optimization department.
The alchemist, summoner and witch have been pretty bad in that department because while its not overpowered, its VERY hard to make an underpowered one. Its like they're locked in on a moderate level of power no matter what, and that makes them look vastly overpowered compared to the dual wielding fighter, rogue, or healbot cleric.
So check it out on the rules boards. 80 heads are better than one. Some of us have no lives and will gladly reference the texts and FAQ's to cut down on the cheese a bit.
From the way you put it, you do seem to run into troublesome groups a lot. It is not necessarily an issue with you tough, as groups all have their different play style. So it's quite probably more an issue of difference in taste than a problem with you personally.
That said, for the case at hand, excuse me if I sound rude, but don't you think you are being a bit over controlling? I mean, does it really hurt your game that much if your players dip to have more powers? The point of the game is to have fun, and it seem they get their fun in playing near superheroes.
Now, it seems that this ampers your fun. Why? This is the question you need to ask yourself. You need to be having fun too, if you are not, something must be changed. Could you simply let go and accept that your player like this and that, direct your campaign this way? If so, this could be the simpler solution. If not... well then you need to change group for a more fitting one.
Edit: A lot of new info between when I started writing this post and the moment I posted. Considering all this, you clearly have a bunch of loudmouthed power-gamers for players. And clearly, this is not a style for you. Quit your group,and do it now. They will only bring you grief. They problem is not level dipping here, it is their attitude.
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I have wonderful Passionate players who hardly optimize at all.
But they are all my friends, who I go to the movies with, celebrate special occasions with and do non-gaming stuff with. Many of them had never tried role playing until I introduced them. Basically you can teach new players good habits, and friends will respect you, because that's what friends do (mostly XD)
That said, for the case at hand, excuse me if I sound rude, but don't you think you are being a bit over controlling? I mean, does it really hurt your game that much if your players dip to have more powers? The point of the game is to have fun, and it seem they get their fun in playing near superheroes. . If not... well then you need to change group for a more fitting one.
She's not having fun because these players are yelling at her about the rules, winning by 'yelling louder' even though their reading of the rules is not supported by anybody else in this thread. Pretty much the definition of bullying behavior. So her issue is finding players who aren't bullies. It seems like the rules issues, when properly read (not by her yelling bullying rules-cheat players) aren't an issue, and can probably be allowed.
There's some forums here for players looking to connect. Look for people in your area, or post a note there yourself... Offering availability as player OR GM.
That's a bit elaborate. I've always been a fan of "Guess what, ROCK FALLS, EVERYONE DIES" myself.No non-combat challenges. That always ends up with at least half a dozen NPCs getting stabbed.That is fine. You get them arrested. They run, you seal the city. They scream about how things are unfair, you say actions beget consequences and one of those guys you killed was the King's son. They break out, you hit them with a few 18 level assassins, TPK, game over, you are finally free! Yay!
I asked for ways to do that on the boards. The overwhelming response was "You're a child if you do that to your players".
That said, for the case at hand, excuse me if I sound rude, but don't you think you are being a bit over controlling? I mean, does it really hurt your game that much if your players dip to have more powers?
The way they do it? If the Sorcerer has more longbow DPR than the Ranger and Inquisitor combined, it's hurting the game.
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That said, for the case at hand, excuse me if I sound rude, but don't you think you are being a bit over controlling? I mean, does it really hurt your game that much if your players dip to have more powers? The point of the game is to have fun, and it seem they get their fun in playing near superheroes.
To be fair, her issues were with options the players abused and voluntarily misread, which made them way too overpowered and thus needing control. Except you can't control this kind of munchkinism. The player knows he's wrong but still argues just because it hurts in his poor little heart.
And our DM is hyper-comprehensive, we still optimize the hell out of our characters (including roleplay-wise).
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That said, for the case at hand, excuse me if I sound rude, but don't you think you are being a bit over controlling? I mean, does it really hurt your game that much if your players dip to have more powers?The way they do it? If the Sorcerer has more longbow DPR than the Ranger and Inquisitor combined, it's hurting the game.
Oh, hey, there just might be an opening here.
Are ALL your players walking all over you, or just SOME of them?
That said, for the case at hand, excuse me if I sound rude, but don't you think you are being a bit over controlling? I mean, does it really hurt your game that much if your players dip to have more powers? The point of the game is to have fun, and it seem they get their fun in playing near superheroes.To be fair, her issues were with options the players abused and voluntarily misread, which made them way too overpowered and thus needing control. Except you can't control this kind of munchkinism. The player knows he's wrong but still argues just because it hurts in his poor little heart.
And our DM is hyper-comprehensive, we still optimize the hell out of our characters (including roleplay-wise).
Yeah, saw that from later posts. Edited mine for that. Really, do dump em, for your own sake.
I can do a Kung-Fu T-Rex, you'll just have a natural attack with -5 on a full-round attack, or with which you'll be able to flurry if you have spent at least two feats to do it.
Wrong, you can't use Natural Attacks PERIOD when Flurrying:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
If you spend the Feats to Flurry with a Natural Attack, it would be making the Iteratives, NOT doing additional attacks at -5.
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These players are obviously immature children. Ditch them... Don't apologize for it.
No reasonable person yells at somebody to force them to submit to a questionable rule interpretation,
ESPECIALLY when that person is playing a crucial role in making the game run in the first place.
Find new players for your games. Wish your ex-players luck in maturing and creating sustainable relationships.
I asked for ways to do that on the boards. The overwhelming response was "You're a child if you do that to your players".That's a bit elaborate. I've always been a fan of "Guess what, ROCK FALLS, EVERYONE DIES" myself.No non-combat challenges. That always ends up with at least half a dozen NPCs getting stabbed.That is fine. You get them arrested. They run, you seal the city. They scream about how things are unfair, you say actions beget consequences and one of those guys you killed was the King's son. They break out, you hit them with a few 18 level assassins, TPK, game over, you are finally free! Yay!
Unless they kinda deserve it. Also, HEY EVERYONE THE TARRASQUE'S IN TOWN or SUDDENLY EVERY NPC EXPLODES INTO 19d6 FIREBALLS or the old timers' favourite THIS DUNGEON IS NOT THE TOMB OF HORRORS, I SWEAR.
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I asked for ways to do that on the boards. The overwhelming response was "You're a child if you do that to your players".That's a bit elaborate. I've always been a fan of "Guess what, ROCK FALLS, EVERYONE DIES" myself.No non-combat challenges. That always ends up with at least half a dozen NPCs getting stabbed.That is fine. You get them arrested. They run, you seal the city. They scream about how things are unfair, you say actions beget consequences and one of those guys you killed was the King's son. They break out, you hit them with a few 18 level assassins, TPK, game over, you are finally free! Yay!
Well, it's still true. Are you a bullying, spoiled, childish cheater ? Because you'll feel better by doing this, then you'll feel this dirty stain when you will realize that you put yourself on their level.
Five advices on this thread to remember :
- You're not the problem. (A bit more rules-fu wouldn't hurt though.)
- Quit this game, and try being a player for some times.
- Have the reflex to show that you are on the players's side.
- Wield the "Paizo Messageboards" as a last-resort incarnation of Fear in any rules arguments, before saying you have the last word for today and will check later because you want to be fair.
- You're not the problem. ;)
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Wrong, you can't use Natural Attacks PERIOD when Flurrying:
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.If you spend the Feats to Flurry with a Natural Attack, it would be making the Iteratives, NOT doing additional attacks at -5.
... it's pretty much exactly what I said, yep. Please read again my post.
That said, for the case at hand, excuse me if I sound rude, but don't you think you are being a bit over controlling? I mean, does it really hurt your game that much if your players dip to have more powers?The way they do it? If the Sorcerer has more longbow DPR than the Ranger and Inquisitor combined, it's hurting the game.Oh, hey, there just might be an opening here.
Are ALL your players walking all over you, or just SOME of them?
We've got the Sorcerer Druid who gets unarmed damage and regular damage and flurry of blows with all natural attacks, the Sorcerer/Zen Archer/Arcane Archer who can cast multiple spells per round through the bow as a free action (and only the first one counts against spells per day), an Inquisitor who's bane instakills everything and who certainly doesn't act Lawful Good, and a Ranger with four arms (Gods damned Advanced Race Guide playtest) who duel wields longbows (and still pales in comparison to the Sorcerer).
a Ranger with four arms (Gods damned Advanced Race Guide playtest) who duel wields longbows (and still pales in comparison to the Sorcerer).
I'm sorry, I just lost it when reading this.
ARG playtest does not officially have 4 arm support for a race
He's a munchkin.
Insta-ban.
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*Sigh* I feel really stupid now. Reading this thread, I'm beginning to realize how bad of a job I've been doing. You guys are pointing out a lot of stuff that I should have put a stop to.Don't feel bad; they are a*#+&@~s.
The problem is not these individual events, it is the culture at the table. They don't want to play a cooperative game, then they can go play Diablo (perfectly fine game that will let them cheese out all they want).
+1000
Another option: Present this rule no multiclassing rule as an appeal to keep the rules simple for yourself. You're boning up on the rules and want to make sure things are a little on the simple side so you don't have to work so hard as you're building up your rules knowledge.
Make them the bad guys for being jerks and making this difficult for you. If they're not willing to do this for you, though, you'll have to be ready to leave...which can be tough when you want to game.
I'm DMing a group through Kingmaker right now, and there's been a character that was problematic. When things got unmanagable, I had to have a discussion with him about his character. He'd already been holding back to try to lessen the disparity, but he was willing, for the sake of the party (and my sanity!) to retire his character and create another that fit within the power level of the extant group.
It sounds like a lot of this is on the players here - I'd say just make your stand clear, and be ready to walk if they're not willing to be as gracious to you as you are to them.
Good luck!
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ZEN ARCHERS can only flurry with a bow
Flurry of Blows (Ex)
Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons.
but the zen archer isn't the claw user in this thread
We've got the Sorcerer Druid who gets unarmed damage and regular damage and flurry of blows with all natural attacks, the Sorcerer/Zen Archer/Arcane Archer who can cast multiple spells per round through the bow as a free action (and only the first one counts against spells per day), an Inquisitor who's bane instakills everything and who certainly doesn't act Lawful Good, and a Ranger with four arms (Gods damned Advanced Race Guide playtest) who duel wields longbows (and still pales in comparison to the Sorcerer).
ARG playtest does not have 4 arm support for race creations
He's a lying cheating munchkin.Insta-ban.
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We've got the Sorcerer Druid who gets unarmed damage and regular damage and flurry of blows with all natural attacks,
the Sorcerer/Zen Archer/Arcane Archer who can cast multiple spells per round through the bow as a free action (and only the first one counts against spells per day)
The ?
, an Inquisitor who's bane instakills everything and who certainly doesn't act Lawful Good,
Damn ?
and a Ranger with four arms (Gods damned Advanced Race Guide playtest) who duel wields longbows (and still pales in comparison to the Sorcerer).
I don't even know where to begin, honestly. Quit this group, and don't look at the explosion. We'll testify it's the gas.
And just tell your players to erase Alignment from their charsheets.
The rules explicitly say how the GM tracks alignment, which means whenever you think it has changed, it has changed. Unless they use Alignment Detection spells/abilities, the players shouldn't have a way to know their current Alignment, that's what those spells/abilities are for, after all. Nice GMs, who play with nice players, will usually give a heads up to players when things look like they may shift (and/or that shift may affect the PCs class ability's) but that doesn't change that tracking Alignment is totally in the GM's hands. What the PCs do is totally in the player's hands (within what is possible by the rules), but the consequences of those actions are in the GMs hands.
And try playing with just the Core Rules, or explicitly limiting what else you allow.
If you are not 100% on top of the rules, that is just common sense.
We've got the Sorcerer Druid who gets unarmed damage and regular damage and flurry of blows with all natural attacks, the Sorcerer/Zen Archer/Arcane Archer who can cast multiple spells per round through the bow as a free action (and only the first one counts against spells per day), an Inquisitor who's bane instakills everything and who certainly doesn't act Lawful Good, and a Ranger with four arms (Gods damned Advanced Race Guide playtest) who duel wields longbows (and still pales in comparison to the Sorcerer).ARG playtest does not have 4 arm support for race creations
He's a lying cheating munchkin.
Insta-ban.
That's not in there? Does that mean there is no racial hatred attribute that grants a death attack, either? It's making the Inquisitor pretty dangerous when combined with Bane. Does this mean half the racial options my players have are illegal?
Does someone know where I can get a copy of the ARG playtest?
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Reminding them if the implicit social contract is different from actually unleashing Infinite Tarrasques or Rocks Fall. Honestly, grab a beginner box and some friends and teach the game to people who haven't picked up so many bad habits.
This is awesome advice. Honestly, do yourself a favor with it and begin with the bases, and with people just wanting to have fun in something they will not be able to abuse.
I think I'll write an universal FAQ thread for DMs having problems, and about how to handle them. Your examples of cheese are so stupid that I can not honestly say if people who read them in the FAQ will know they happened in real life, before they read it afterhand.
Not to harsh on you, but allowing a resource - the ARG PLAYTEST - that you yourself don't even have access to, nor have read apparently, just is not a good idea for ANY GM. Would you think GM'ing a PRPG game when you don't even know the Core Rules is a good idea? Same reason why you need to have a handle on all the material in the game. A plain Vanilla PRPG game is more than enjoyable, so if that's what you're comfortable with, that's probably what should be allowed in your game.