Alien, it appears the thing at the core of the dispute is if point 2 (can only make one attack while mounted if it moves) our point 3 (pounce allowing a full attack on a charge) is a more specific instance.
Generally, I ascribe to the theory that specific named abilities are more specific than standard combat rules. You are welcome to interpret differently, and I do applaud you for coming up with something better than 'but the mount is charging, not you.'
BUT AGAIN THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CASTYS DEALING DAMAGE. I WANT TO SEE SOME 300D6 FIREBALLS.
Well it does. Because this thread is about dealing more damage than AM BARBARIAN. And as per RAW AM BARBARIAN gets one attack for 3d8+168.
This is what people have to beat here... your RAI (RAI will be only pounce with natural weapons anyway) or Rules as Interpreted don't change the fact that rule 2) WILL APPLY.
Sadly I don't have too much time at hands to build a full character topping that dmg atm.
You're throwing around the term RAI without any proof your interpretation is the correct one.
You are aware that is a very bad idea, right?
You're throwing around the term RAI without any proof your interpretation is the correct one.
You are aware that is a very bad idea, right?
Mine is no interpretation but RAW. That's the difference.
We have 2 rules and both seem to apply and the "more specific" applies. And its the mounted combat one. Because you are on a mount and no ability of yours changes the rules of how your attacks behave while mounted (except some nifty damage multipliers)
You're throwing around the term RAI without any proof your interpretation is the correct one.
You are aware that is a very bad idea, right?
Mine is no interpretation but RAW. That's the difference.
We have 2 rules and both seem to apply and the "more specific" applies. And its the mounted combat one. Because you are on a mount and no ability of yours changes the rules of how your attacks behave while mounted (except some nifty damage multipliers)
Which I would agree with, would this not then create the first and only time a general combat rule overrides a specific, named (Ex) or (Su) ability.
You're throwing around the term RAI without any proof your interpretation is the correct one.
You are aware that is a very bad idea, right?
Mine is no interpretation but RAW. That's the difference.
We have 2 rules and both seem to apply and the "more specific" applies. And its the mounted combat one. Because you are on a mount and no ability of yours changes the rules of how your attacks behave while mounted (except some nifty damage multipliers)
"Specific Ability", IE Pounce, is certainly more specific than "General Combat Rules", such as Charging and Mounted Combat.
Now its possible that it is not intended you can Pounce from a mounted charge, but until a rules person says this is the case, its a fairly safe bet that the most specfic (or highest level/most relevant) ability is what applies; in this case, the first point you come to is Pounce, which says you get all of your attacks.
*popcorn*
Hey, can you toss me some? Raging is hungry work and this is like sundering a wall of force.
But, If you start the fight with a pair of waves of fatigue the barbarian can just hit you, not as hard, but nothing will stop it.
Well, it starts with a pair of waves of exhaustion, one quickened, so he's done sundering my spells after the first one. Then I kill or disable BATTY BAT. After that, AM is in trouble, because I can throw spells far longer than he can rage. He's bound to fail a save eventually, and then he's done.
Oh, and that's enough of my tactics. The rest is a surprise.
You will survive a hit, as long as it doesn't crit.
And then AM Barbarian will go down the drain as soon as he can't charge. (at least his Bat will be dead next round by a chance of 100%)
People always say that, but I never see a 'how.'
At least I say how you will die. RAGELANCEPOUNCE and all that. It's a little more complex than that but I do want people to keep saying 'I make seventy billion clones!' for the moment because it's more interesting. And funnier.
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Diviner Wizard level 20.
Plays first since he always wins initiative
Time-Stop (extended with rod) (4 rounds)
Mage's Disjunction (area version)
Cast Gate as a horizontal circle above our opponent
Reverse Gravity (area non-target spell, may extend by feat)
Need rule clarification for being able to cast another spell while concentrating on a previous spell.
People always say that, but I never see a 'how.'
At least I say how you will die. RAGELANCEPOUNCE and all that. It's a little more complex than that but I do want people to keep saying 'I make seventy billion clones!' for the moment because it's more interesting. And funnier.
i think this may kill batty bat
For Spellcaster Damage, does anything actually really compete with the Wizard 19/CBSorcerer 1 with Spell Perfection, and Maximized (+3), Empowered (+2), Intensified (free due to Magical Lineage) followed by its pal with free Quicken (and room for MORE metamagic unless I'm missing something) and a lesser maximize rod for a pair of 22d6+44 (176 each) fireballs?Yes. A magus channel striking through his falcata and doing all that.
Eidolon suit has improved evasion. ...don't know about the magus though.
that polar ray?
Eidolon suit has improved evasion. ...don't know about the magus though.
Spell turning. On the bright side, AM didn't kill you.
Yes. A magus channel striking through his falcata and doing all that.For Spellcaster Damage, does anything actually really compete with the Wizard 19/CBSorcerer 1 with Spell Perfection, and Maximized (+3), Empowered (+2), Intensified (free due to Magical Lineage) followed by its pal with free Quicken (and room for MORE metamagic unless I'm missing something) and a lesser maximize rod for a pair of 22d6+44 (176 each) fireballs?
Wait. Spell Perfection really works like that?
Magus prepares Fireball (3), Intensified (lineage), Empowered (+2), Maximized (+3, free due to perfection), net level 5, and is valid as its less than spell level 9? Even though Magi can't cast 9th level spells...
Thats... crazy. And... awesome.
Don't have to. I've got arcanas to give me free empowers and maximizes.
Spell turning. On the bright side, AM didn't kill you.that polar ray?
Eidolon suit has improved evasion. ...don't know about the magus though.
I'm not sure what we're talking about, but spell turning won't work on polar ray (it's an effect spell).
I'm not sure what we're talking about, but spell turning won't work on polar ray (it's an effect spell).Spell turning. On the bright side, AM didn't kill you.that polar ray?
Eidolon suit has improved evasion. ...don't know about the magus though.
Rays target.
Rays target.I'm not sure what we're talking about, but spell turning won't work on polar ray (it's an effect spell).Spell turning. On the bright side, AM didn't kill you.that polar ray?
Eidolon suit has improved evasion. ...don't know about the magus though.
Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. From seven to ten (1d4+6) spell levels are affected by the turning. The exact number is rolled secretly.
Polar Ray
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a white ceramic cone or prism)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
People always say that, but I never see a 'how.'
At least I say how you will die. RAGELANCEPOUNCE and all that. It's a little more complex than that but I do want people to keep saying 'I make seventy billion clones!' for the moment because it's more interesting. And funnier.
Diviner lvl 20. (wins initiative)
13 Cha, Eldritch Heritage, Roc Companion., Boon Companion.
Greater Rod of Extend Spell, Greater Rod of Quickening#
Increase Casterlevel by 2 for a spell (can be done with a myriad of possibilities)
1. rnd:
Roc readies with his lunge feat to grapple the Bat. Bat still uses its CMD (AFAIK) and not the Barbarian's. (This is purely optional anyway)
Extended Timestop.
1st timestop: quickened Gate (2x Solar), Forcecage (you can't move and thus are immobile so you don't get a saving throw against it)
2nd timestop: quickened Gate (2x Solar), Forcecage (you can't move and thus are immobile so you don't get a saving throw against it)
3rd timestop: quickened Gate (2x Solar), Forcecage (you can't move and thus are immobile so you don't get a saving throw against it)
4th timestop: quickened Gate (2x Solar), Forcecage (you can't move and thus are immobile so you don't get a saving throw against it)
You are now inside of 4 Forcecages (takes 4 rounds to get out of) and have 8 Solars against you (they are in your way) which can't be sundered which all target your Bat (or you if you like). All are lvl 20 casters and can heal each other with Mass Heal while you can't kill them because of their regeneration(and you can't even ragelancepounce one because they will move near the forcecage)
2nd round:
All Solars cast Dictum.
That means your Bat is (most probably) 3 times paralyzed now. (another 3 rounds for you to sunder things while getting attacked by 8 Solars and 1 mage and his Roc AC)
3rd round:
All Solars cast Waves of Exhaustion
4th round etc pp... do whatever you like... the Barbarian and most likely any creature you will find in the books WILL die against them
EDIT: You seem to get the save against the Forcecage. But this doesn't matter once all Solars cast their Dictum. If that isn't enough they'll cast their Holy Words right after it.
And their Waves of Exhaustion will still affect you, too.
So this isn't too much of a downturner
Rays target.I'm not sure what we're talking about, but spell turning won't work on polar ray (it's an effect spell).Spell turning. On the bright side, AM didn't kill you.that polar ray?
Eidolon suit has improved evasion. ...don't know about the magus though.Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. From seven to ten (1d4+6) spell levels are affected by the turning. The exact number is rolled secretly.Polar Ray
School evocation [cold]; Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a white ceramic cone or prism)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
If ray's don't target then neither do attack rolls.
Spell turning. On the bright side, AM didn't kill you.that polar ray?
Eidolon suit has improved evasion. ...don't know about the magus though.
Still you are staying classy Schroedinger. Ofc the Barbarian has just the equipment he needs :P
Still you are staying classy Schroedinger. Ofc the Barbarian has just the equipment he needs :PSpell turning. On the bright side, AM didn't kill you.that polar ray?
Eidolon suit has improved evasion. ...don't know about the magus though.
BATTY BAT and AM BARBARIAN have had rings of spellturning since their inception.
But you know what? Forget it. The OP's mistake was even mentioning AM BARBARIAN because casty's are still dragging it out like they want to kill him specifically rather than outdamage him as the original poster intended.
I'm a divination wiz so I go first.
Quickened Fly
Move up
Ready action for barbarian moving 15ft towards me.
Maze on Barbarian
Next round, Summon.
3rd round, We are in the same place,as round 1, except I now have a friend. REPEAT!
If ray's don't target then neither do attack rolls.
I'm not sure who you're addressing, but it doesn't matter whether rays target or not. Ray spells are effect spells (always have been, at least in 3.X), thus they aren't affected by spell turning. You can't turn a ray (or an acid arrow, or a flame blade).
I thought Gate wasn't usable during a Timestop.
Why not? People are just invulnerable to all your effects while you are in a timestop. You can still cast whatever you want.
Yet only things with a duration still exist after your Time Stop wears out and thus are able to affect people.Gate has a duration (the gated creatures stay after all) and thus its no problem at all.
If ray's don't target then neither do attack rolls.I'm not sure who you're addressing, but it doesn't matter whether rays target or not. Ray spells are effect spells (always have been, at least in 3.X), thus they aren't affected by spell turning. You can't turn a ray (or an acid arrow, or a flame blade).
The point being is in order for you to hit am with a ray you have to make an attack roll against him and thus target him. Same with ranged touch attacks.
To argue otherwise is to probably get chased away from many sane gm's tables.
Wait nevermind this thread stopped being sane from the first post. You may continue.
If ray's don't target then neither do attack rolls.I'm not sure who you're addressing, but it doesn't matter whether rays target or not. Ray spells are effect spells (always have been, at least in 3.X), thus they aren't affected by spell turning. You can't turn a ray (or an acid arrow, or a flame blade).The point being is in order for you to hit am with a ray you have to make an attack roll against him and thus target him. Same with ranged touch attacks.
To argue otherwise is to probably get chased away from many sane gm's tables.
Wait nevermind this thread stopped being sane from the first post. You may continue.
So Spell Turning says that you have to make an attack roll and then its turnable? I see ^^
If ray's don't target then neither do attack rolls.I'm not sure who you're addressing, but it doesn't matter whether rays target or not. Ray spells are effect spells (always have been, at least in 3.X), thus they aren't affected by spell turning. You can't turn a ray (or an acid arrow, or a flame blade).
CLEARLY, BARBARIAN GROW SPONTANEOUS COLD IMMUNITY TO COUNTERACT SPONTANEOUS LOGIC IMMUNITY OF CASTY.
So Spell Turning says that you have to make an attack roll and then its turnable? I see ^^If ray's don't target then neither do attack rolls.I'm not sure who you're addressing, but it doesn't matter whether rays target or not. Ray spells are effect spells (always have been, at least in 3.X), thus they aren't affected by spell turning. You can't turn a ray (or an acid arrow, or a flame blade).The point being is in order for you to hit am with a ray you have to make an attack roll against him and thus target him. Same with ranged touch attacks.
To argue otherwise is to probably get chased away from many sane gm's tables.
Wait nevermind this thread stopped being sane from the first post. You may continue.
Actually disregard what I said. Helps to read the spell in question.
That being said you are targeting one of his higher defenses with a very low number in comparison. Good luck.
The point being is in order for you to hit am with a ray you have to make an attack roll against him and thus target him. Same with ranged touch attacks.
To argue otherwise is to probably get chased away from many sane gm's tables.
Wait nevermind this thread stopped being sane from the first post. You may continue.
I'm just saying that spell turning doesn't work on effect spells (which include all ray spells), which is exactly what the text of spell turning says verbatim.
Not sure if I understand what you're saying |:
Edit: yeah, I sometimes suffer from failing to read the words in front of my face (:
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I thought Gate wasn't usable during a Timestop.Why not? People are just invulnerable to all your effects while you are in a timestop. You can still cast whatever you want.
Yet only things with a duration still exist after your Time Stop wears out and thus are able to affect people.Gate has a duration (the gated creatures stay after all) and thus its no problem at all.
You can use gate to create a gate to another plane while time stopped.
You cannot use gate to call a creature to you while time stopped, because the target of your calling is invulnerable to your calling spell.
If ray's don't target then neither do attack rolls.I'm not sure who you're addressing, but it doesn't matter whether rays target or not. Ray spells are effect spells (always have been, at least in 3.X), thus they aren't affected by spell turning. You can't turn a ray (or an acid arrow, or a flame blade).The point being is in order for you to hit am with a ray you have to make an attack roll against him and thus target him. Same with ranged touch attacks.
To argue otherwise is to probably get chased away from many sane gm's tables.
Wait nevermind this thread stopped being sane from the first post. You may continue.
Even under the straight up magic rules, rays are under effect. Not target. So they're immune from spell turning.
Regarding the Gate during timestop issue, I thought the argument went that since people are invulnerable to all your effects during a timestop, the creature cannot be gated through the gate.
Even if your argument were right then the Gate stays "just as long enough to transport the creature". And if that happens after 4 rounds it stays open that long. At least I see no limit on how long "just as long" is. Its as long as it needs to be.
So Spell Turning says that you have to make an attack roll and then its turnable? I see ^^If ray's don't target then neither do attack rolls.I'm not sure who you're addressing, but it doesn't matter whether rays target or not. Ray spells are effect spells (always have been, at least in 3.X), thus they aren't affected by spell turning. You can't turn a ray (or an acid arrow, or a flame blade).The point being is in order for you to hit am with a ray you have to make an attack roll against him and thus target him. Same with ranged touch attacks.
To argue otherwise is to probably get chased away from many sane gm's tables.
Wait nevermind this thread stopped being sane from the first post. You may continue.
Actually disregard what I said. Helps to read the spell in question.
That being said you are targeting one of his higher defenses with a very low number in comparison. Good luck.
+40 is low? How high exactly is his touch AC?
Those threads are to defend the martial classes. The caster classes are already winning.
Maze solves these problems guys....
Go ahead, spell turning the Maze. Now I have some time to buff and your spell turning ring just lost a few of its turns.
Maze solves these problems guys....
Go ahead, spell turning the Maze. Now I have some time to buff and your spell turning ring just lost a few of its turns.
Weeelllll that's a tricky one. That depends entirely upon what AM BARBARIAN does next. Does he:
A. Spell Sunder the maze to get to the squishy casty inside?
or
B. Figures he wins and flies off being miles away before you get done buffing?
In column A. you get basically one, maybe two rounds. Maybe.
Column B. He's gone. You survived but he's still loose upon the world.
+40 is low? How high exactly is his touch AC?
Took me a moment to figure out just who exactly you were talking about.
+42 is high but iirc it still wasn't a guarantee. CAn't recall the exact number but I believe it was actually higher than his normal AC if you can believe that.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Regarding the Gate during timestop issue, I thought the argument went that since people are invulnerable to all your effects during a timestop, the creature cannot be gated through the gate.Even if your argument were right then the Gate stays "just as long enough to transport the creature". And if that happens after 4 rounds it stays open that long. At least I see no limit on how long "just as long" is. Its as long as it needs to be.
Actually, the spell's duration is "instantaneous" (as a calling spell) or concentration/1 round per level (as a planar gateway spell, repeated in paragraph 6 of the spell description).
You are targeting a creature with an instantaneous calling spell. During a time stop, creatures are invulnerable to your spell. The spell fails, and because it is instantaneous its duration does not persist beyond the duration of the time stop.
Time stop + gate in solar/balor/Barney the dinosaur does not work.
+40 is low? How high exactly is his touch AC?Took me a moment to figure out just who exactly you were talking about.
+42 is high but iirc it still wasn't a guarantee. CAn't recall the exact number but I believe it was actually higher than his normal AC if you can believe that.
Schroedinger much?
There NEVER were actual numbers on his character. You are all still falling for his Schroedinger concept and celebrating it as invincible...
Its not even him who comes up with this. He just lets you do the work and one of his fanboys ALWAYS comes up with an antidote just right for that occasion and ofc AM BARBARIAN happens to just have that one right now...
It was ~36 touch AC maximum.
I also included a luck blade (zero wishes) for a rerolled attack roll, but if you really want to get paranoid about natural 1s, you could have a couple of luck blades. They're not that expensive @ 20.
The biggest negative versus polar ray (which is hilarious that we're talking about since many people think it's too weak) is that cold resistance 30 is enough to probably keep AM BARBARIAN alive. That's pretty easy to get at level 20, particularly if you're expecting it. Also, if you shift the damage from one elemental type to another, you lose 100 damage from the crossblooded bonuses, so that won't work.
One thing that isn't being mentioned is that these attacks can crit. I can probably work Improved Critical in the polar ray build. If both attacks crit, that's 858 average damage.
I'm also sure there's a way to squeeze out more damage with a ray-focused build.
By the way, cold ice strike is a mistake in the printing of ultimate magic -- it's not a real spell (actually I think it was supposed to be a monk ability). I'm pretty sure if it isn't already errated, it will be.
I'm also sure there's a way to squeeze out more damage with a ray-focused build.
Yeah, be a magus and channel it through a melee attack.
If you're scared of going toe to toe with him be a myrmidarch and shoot him with it.