Whatever.
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P.S. BARBARIAN NOT USE CAPS. BARBARIAN HOLD SHIFT LIKE REAL MAN. PINKIE FINGER ALONE AM STRONGER THAN MOST CASTYS.
yet again you make my day AM.
Ignore the haters, AM and BATTY BAT forever.
Hyla, all the AM characters speak in ALL CAPS. It's a 'thing' that goes beyond the individual posters. If he stopped, it'd be...unnatural.
Not that AM BARBARIAN couldn't ask his buddy Trinam to speak up...
A rule of thumb I've heard from several RPG developers is if it's a 'must-have' it's too powerful.
Greater Beast Totem is a must-have. One would have to know they're 'stepping back' from the true potential of the class if not taken.
What Barbarian, going to level 10, would take another totem? Or not take the Beast Totem line just to get Pounce w/ weapons?
And yet, these Barbs are seldom using the natural weapons which are the theme of the totem.
I vote for revision.
I could houserule it, but I prefer avoiding houserules and think PF Society would benefit from the ruling.
Changing "Pounce" to natural weapons only or one attack per weapon (natural or manufactured) would balance it, or just saying pounce doesn't work with iterative attacks, like JJ.
Well I guess if a Martial class can figure out a decent high level combination of Feats/Rage Powers than others will seek to bring out the Nerf-Bat. Fighters have this option through Mounted Skirmisher, as discussed above. Alchemists have this option.
Balance issues here are laughable! What is easier for a GM to employ versus a party?: Pounce/Mounted Skirmishers Martials or equivalent level Casters? Its a nice paradigm shift to have a martial class able to hold it's own in high level play. It is happening for other classes (try to spot a 20th level Ninja!) Fighters using some of the Eldritch Heritage lines with Stalwart and Power Attack Feats can be REALLY nasty...
Its a nice paradigm shift to have a martial class able to hold it's own in high level play.
They do not need pounce for that.
They do not need pounce for that.Its a nice paradigm shift to have a martial class able to hold it's own in high level play.
CASTY NOT NEED CONJURATION TO HOLD OWN IN HIGH LEVEL. BARBARIAN BET IF THAT TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM CASTY WOULD BE WAILING MIGHTILY.
Hyla....
I submit that Casters have had "SaveorDie" , one round victory, abilities (and at very low levels) since the games inception. Barbs now have a similar potential with their feats and powers. Taking away Pounce would in fact move things the other way.. Fighters can achieve similar effects with their feats [Vital Strike Power Attack lines] It is easy to think of ways to deal with a pouncing barbs[see all the threads] Just takes some effort and planning, kinda like a Martial dealing with a Caster
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Look at it this way, Hyla: AM is a build that requires not only a 20th-level barbarian to follow a specific feat/power path, but also requires an 18th-level synthesist willing to act as a mount - just to have a chance of lasting into the second or third round against a high-level wizard. And that's only if one interprets several of the ambiguous rules in favor of the barbarian. There's no doubt that AM is a very high-powered build, but he's no match for the versatility of a full-progression caster.
I like the barbarian. I like the idea of this giant character with an even bigger axe bounding through the wilderness, yelling at the top of their lungs and chopping an ogre in two on a single leap.
If RAGEPOUNCE itself is out of whack, then I can say I don't want to lose that leaping barbarian. I've seen similar abilities, ala cavalier, ala casties, that are similar to RAGEPOUNCE. They just require some setup. When I say setup, I mean something like: the cavalier gets this amazing X IF they're on a horse, IF they've spent three feats, IF they're willing to eat an AoO, IF they have a charge line, IF the terrain is OK for a horse, and so on.
Similar to how a casty SHOULD invest in invisibility and fly at a minimum when doing something spectacular. Or, perhaps something more comparable to the old thief backstab. Whammo! But, it required a careful setup.
...yet wasn't it great when it did happen? I think it is. I think it has the potential to be great--it's the difference between ALWAYS rolling a billion and one damage, to getting to roll it when you've set it Up. Just. Right.
Getting that backstab felt great. Getting that lance charge felt FANTASTIC! That is, if you put in the effort, you should be able to pull it off.
Could we do something similar with barbarian pounce? This is a thought exercise I wanted to toss in, as something to chew over while we're waiting on a RAGEPOUNCE verdict. In other words, if the door does shut, I'm trying to explore here--I love the barbarian, and so hope for some ideas. Or at least, to open up another door of opportunity, if it makes sense.
Even more so, rage powers are infinitely expandable, something new to the classes that Paizo has introduced.
There is a lot of room for opportunity. And unlike 3.5, for an amazing level of growth and versatility.
So if RAGEPOUNCE is out of whack, what could "bring it into line"? And if it is, we have the potential for growth beyond RAGEPOUNCE. What SHOULD we propose, in terms of powers, that would help with the stated disparity?
I've already shown some bias, here. I like things that require a little effort to use--though that's mostly because it can feel really good when it DOES happen. Such things should not be impossible to achieve. ...just a rewarding part of strategy.
Aspect Master (Su):
Aspect of the Tiger: Dark stripes appear on the monk’s skin, and his face becomes more feline. His eyes become catlike, with vertical pupils, and his canines enlarge. Once per hour, the monk can move at 10 times his normal land speed when he makes a charge and is treated as if he had the pounce ability. The tiger is swift, fierce, and deadly—a monk of any alignment can take on the aspect of the tiger.
Monks can get Iterative Pounce too; without Natural Weapons at that. Just some food for thought.
I would say, along with many others, that if it is a must have it should not be an option(feat). You should just be able to do it.
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instead of envisioning a cat pouncing, imagine something out of a Samurai Film or some Anime. don't focus too much on the name of the mechanic, try and visualize the mechanic through different eyes.
no, the barbarian isn't running up, leaping and latching on, he is moving at ridiculously fast speeds, striking multiple times in an instant, making the foe explode into a geyser of blood instantaneously.
your number of attack rolls isn't exactly how often you attack, it's a mechanic, warriors rarely stay still. the attack rolls are an abstraction. those multiple attacks could easily be described as few or as many as fits your flavor.
if somebody can fire a bow 7 times in 6 seconds, than the anime samurai visual is just as valid.
instead of envisioning a cat pouncing, imagine something out of a Samurai Film or some Anime. don't focus too much on the name of the mechanic, try and visualize the mechanic through different eyes.
no, the barbarian isn't running up, leaping and latching on, he is moving at ridiculously fast speeds, striking multiple times in an instant, making the foe explode into a geyser of blood instantaneously.
your number of attack rolls isn't exactly how often you attack, it's a mechanic, warriors rarely stay still. the attack rolls are an abstraction. those multiple attacks could easily be described as few or as many as fits your flavor.
if somebody can fire a bow 7 times in 6 seconds, than the anime samurai visual is just as valid.
THIS AM RIGHT. WHY CASTIES THINK ONLY THEY CAN BE AWESOME I AM NOT KNOW. ALCHEMISTS CAN POUNCE. MONKS CAN POUNCE. WHY BARBARIAN FORCED NOT TO POUNCE? THIS SEEMS LIKE CONSPIRACY... MUST MAKE INQUISITION TO FIND CULPRITS!
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As far as I know monks cannot pounce unless you're talking about the Dimensional Agility feats which require four feats and lvl 17 or so to accomplish.
I would be happy if some caster abilities were toned down. Notably some of the no save spells and cheesy stuff like snapdragon fireworks with Dazing Spell. And the sap master combination. Sign me up for toning down the cheese in Pathfinder across the board.
I'd like Pathfinder to last. And the more cheese the game designers let in, the less people enjoy running the game. When game designers put in annoying combinations like the barbarian pouncing with all its other abilities, alchemist cheesy rage builds, sap master rogues knocking out dragons with nonlethal damage, spells with no saves that compelely debilitate an enemy, and other such cheese, the less attractive the game is.
DMs are the lifeblood of all pen and paper RPG games. If DMs don't enjoy running the game because they get blind-sided by poor design decisions that make challenging parties all but impossible, the game is damaged. As a person that DMs I find all this cheese that has been creeping in since Core has been turning me off to running the game.
They've corrected some of it. But I'm still arguing with my players over stuff like this barbarian beast totem outshining all other powers, sap master build, and quite a few spells like prediction of failure, euphoric tranquility, maze, and energy drain spells. I'm for toning down all these things.
You think I have any love for casters that maze the enemy fighter-type I designed to take on a party so they can focus fire the enemy caster? Not enjoyable as a DM either. Not epic. Makes the encounter trivial and boring to run.
Maybe players enjoy killing the main Big Bad Evil Guy with complete ease, but DMs do not like it. It makes the entire process of building up this BBEG and running an entire Adventure Path seem like an exercise in futility. Once a game reaches a point where the DM is no longer having fun, that game is going to have problems.
So if Paizo wants to keep their game healthy and growing, they need to catch the cheese and cut it out when it is pointed out to them. Rather than wait until they release a few more supplements that add more cheese and they don't even know where to begin to cut to get things somewhat back on track.
Look at 3.5 as an example. The game was revitalized by cutting out a lot of problem material and adding quality options to the existing material. Now does Pathfinder want to let its flagship game head in that direction by not addressing problem abilities before they get out of hand? I hope not. I hope Paizo game developers want problem areas in the game material pointed out to them for correction.
Sure, we DMs can house rule it. But that creates adversarial relationships with players. It is much easier if the The Bible of the game (aka the source material) and its gods (aka the game designers) clean these rules up from up on high for the entire Pathfinder community.
And, for the record, every class can get the majority of the mechanical benefit of pounce while mounted through the Mounted Skirmisher feat.
To be honest Pounce itself is not so much the issue here, but a full attack with the damage bonus from a lance charge.
THIS is what makes the whole deal whacky. Pounce alone I would be pretty OK with actually.
And, for the record, every class can get the majority of the mechanical benefit of pounce while mounted through the Mounted Skirmisher feat.To be honest Pounce itself is not so much the issue here, but a full attack with the damage bonus from a lance charge.
THIS is what makes the whole deal whacky. Pounce alone I would be pretty OK with actually.
Then let's push for a special exception rather than a nerf of the Beast Totem tree. Monks have special rules where they and only they can't apply Improved Natural Attack, and I don't even think the consequences of that are anywhere near overpowering or cheesy.
I think easiest would be to specify that Pounce can not be used while mounted.
Care to be more specific Meatrace?OK. I'll spell it out.
Beat Totem Rage powers eventually allow the Barbarian to pounce while raging.
They also give him claw attacks at a lower level.
Because natural weapons are more expensive to enchant, the claws do low base damage, only get +Str to damage, and don't get a favorable Power Attack ratio, it is still more efficient to use a 2H weapon and fall back on your claws in a pinch.
If, at level 10 when you get pounce you are only allowed to pounce with your far, far inferior natural attacks gained while raging, the beast totem rage powers are less enticing of a rage power tree than originally hoped.
Thus, if it is ruled that pounce only works with natural weapons, Beast Totem rage powers go from being the best Barbarian build to something of a curiosity. And the Barbarian goes back to being the red-headed stepchild of warrior classes.
I think barbarians have a lot more options than just Beast Totem. The barbarian I run in my group has been the hardest class to deal with for most of his levels. Far superior to the two-weapon damage warrior. He is using Fiend Totem.
Did you forget about the following:
1. Massive hit points
2. Half level DR from invulnerable rager.
3. Come and Get Me: Easily the best physical damage dealer offensive ability in the game.
4. Superstition
5. Raging Brutality
6. Reckless Abandon
7. Strength Surge
8. Higher number of skill points and better class skills
9. Faster movement
I guess you forgot all that when you made your statement about the only thing making the barbarian good was Greater Beast Totem. I've DMed one of these monsters from 1st to 20th level, it was one of the hardest classes I've ever had to deal with. Only thing that was a lot worse was the 3.0 Archmage before the changes.
I see. Monks can get pounce one time an hour. If barbarians got it one time a rage, I would be pretty fine with it. Fixing it that way would be fine as well.
It is pounce from enemy to enemy so they are never not making a full attack and making up to a double move, an ability more powerful than the mobility fighter at level 20, I'm not cool with. Not pleasant for a DM and completely overshadows all the other physical damage dealers other than the archer.
And, for the record, every class can get the majority of the mechanical benefit of pounce while mounted through the Mounted Skirmisher feat.
This is limited to a single move. It also requires an investment in a feat tree and skills. It also means you'll have a mount, which for most classes means you have a liability which will die fast. And flavor-wise, Mounted Skirmisher doesn't say you are pouncing, so I don't have a problem with it.
The way most people seem to want to use Beastmorph and Beast Totem is to get pounce with manufactured weapons which is clearly not the intent. The monk tiger aspect example is the only odd one out. Then again, the monk can attack with any part of its body, so it's not like a pounce from a monk has to mean he walks forward and uses his right fist 6 times and we call it a pounce.
instead of envisioning a cat pouncing, imagine something out of a Samurai Film or some Anime. don't focus too much on the name of the mechanic, try and visualize the mechanic through different eyes.
no, the barbarian isn't running up, leaping and latching on, he is moving at ridiculously fast speeds, striking multiple times in an instant, making the foe explode into a geyser of blood instantaneously.
your number of attack rolls isn't exactly how often you attack, it's a mechanic, warriors rarely stay still. the attack rolls are an abstraction. those multiple attacks could easily be described as few or as many as fits your flavor.
if somebody can fire a bow 7 times in 6 seconds, than the anime samurai visual is just as valid.
The Archer firing a bow fast and similarly fast combat is an abstraction of somebody's skills in combat improving. Pounce is an abstraction of a creature jumping on another creature.
The anime trick with super fast moving characters exists for a few reasons. One, you can't show limbs being severed on Japanese TV. The flash of white and then tons of blood spurting out (or for younger kids shows, people simply falling down) is for censorship reasons. Two, it's extremely cheap to animate. You can tell because shows with smaller budgets will overuse this trick to the extreme. Anime writers figured out a long time ago that they could spin this to mean the character is really fast and cool. Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I'd much rather actually see somebody fight. For an example of how to handle this trick well, see Bradley from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. They use the trick a couple times to show how fast he is, but all his major fights are fully animated. So (tl;dr) I could visualize pounce as something that it isn't, but I choose not to :P
I kind of like the idea of pounce being held in reserve as a special move, only pulled out in important circumstances. I could see myself limiting its use by choice rather than some 'once per rage' rule.
Screaming a special attack name optional.
That's pretty similar to what I'm suggesting. I think if we opened pounce up to each class, it would end up as too much of a game-changer. PF tried to introduce a number of things already to counter the FA loss for martials, and we'd still have those items in play. As a combined package, it might be too strong. However, allowing pounce (and thus, more FA) selectively (as a limited option, or through strategical setup) would be a nice oomph for the martial classes.
Maybe I'm leaping too far ahead, though. Or, perhaps, not far enough.
PS. Mounted Skirmisher works with charges.
Then it is whacky as well.
I have been doing some reading on the issue of the "Charge bonus" applying to the full-attack. In fact, I believe the rules imply that only the first attack of the full-attack gets the benefit of a charge, while all the rest are calculated normally.
Thoughts?
PS. Mounted Skirmisher works with charges.And, for the record, every class can get the majority of the mechanical benefit of pounce while mounted through the Mounted Skirmisher feat.To be honest Pounce itself is not so much the issue here, but a full attack with the damage bonus from a lance charge.
THIS is what makes the whole deal whacky. Pounce alone I would be pretty OK with actually.
You could argue that it works as long as you don't make a double move charge. But it is another feat that DM could easily rule was only meant for a regular move action. The feat only allows a full attack if you move the mount's speed or less. Nowhere does it say you can charge. You are claiming the charge works by omission rather than actual statement the feat works with a charge.
RAW a caster can evoke a searing explosion with a 20 foot radius spread out to 400 feet plus 40 feet/level. This is a Fireball Spell, the initiating bead travelling faster than 60 miles/hour and cast as a standard action.
RAI I have never seen a magician do this. I have seen magicians pull cards, rabbits, doves or "boas" out of sleeves or hats in close proximity to themselves. I think by RAI we have to think casters then are actually using some form of prestidigitation to cast showers of cards or rabbits at their foes while shouting 'Fireball! Fireball!' Damage may be Illusory and based on the velocity of the thrown rabbits and shouting of the caster. Fireball damage should likely be toned down [compare to getting hit by a Claymore for instance]
I really dont get how people cant "imagine" somebody Pouncing with a sword??? Conan moves with "Pantherish Grace"!
Compare a caster in a combat round....He will take his move action and his standard action. The standard action is likely casting a spell which as he levels up is cast at an appropriate power level. If staggered by a blow he can still cast away with full effect.
A martial at low levels does much the same thing. A move and an attack. Then curiously as he gains skill he realises that to fight most effectively he must move only 5 feet while laying out his iterative attacks. If staggered he can only attack one time [while arguably the Caster is still "Full Attacking" with his spell , not getting into metamagic btw] Maybe the Martial[Fighters only??] would benefit from having an option to have a single attack using all damage from his iteratives??
Pounce and other such feats/abilities are a way to redress this built in inequity of action effectiveness. If casters had to cast spells as a full action, then I could see a reason to get rid of Pounce and Mounted Skirmisher (I think this would actually improve the game....)
RAW a caster can evoke a searing explosion with a 20 foot radius spread out to 400 feet plus 40 feet/level. This is a Fireball Spell, the initiating bead travelling faster than 60 miles/hour and cast as a standard action.
What?
Thats not RAW.
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RAW a caster can evoke a searing explosion with a 20 foot radius spread out to 400 feet plus 40 feet/level. This is a Fireball Spell, the initiating bead travelling faster than 60 miles/hour and cast as a standard action.
What?
Thats not RAW.
it is.
an archer can fire 7 arrows in 6 seconds
why can't someone get multiple attacks with the same weapon on a "pounce". Remember those Samurai movies?
pounce is merely the name of the ability, an abstraction of making a full attack after the abstraction of making time.
at the same time, it can just as easily be you temporarily stopping time as you move, get a massive amount of slashes in and time reverts to normal.
but either way, they use the mechanics of pounce. just look at it from a mechanical standpoint. forget the name, think of the mechanic. "pounce" sounded cooler than "charging flurry" or "endless cuts while time stands still"
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Actually... if you're level 10 and firing a fireball as far as you can it'd get to 800 ft total. Traveling 800 ft in 6 seconds is... 480,000 ft per hour, which translates to approx. 90.9 mph. That's raw.
I guess you forgot all that when you made your statement about the only thing making the barbarian good was Greater Beast Totem.
I guess it's a good thing I didn't say anything of the sort.
It IS the strongest offensive option they have, however. Eliminating the strongest option of a class makes it weaker.You can have all those things you listed, vs. having them all PLUS pounce, and guess what the pouncing barbarian is stronger. DUH!
RAW a caster can evoke a searing explosion with a 20 foot radius spread out to 400 feet plus 40 feet/level. This is a Fireball Spell, the initiating bead travelling faster than 60 miles/hour and cast as a standard action.
What?
Thats not RAW.
it is.
an archer can fire 7 arrows in 6 seconds
What!?
I was talking about the fireball.
And that is a burst. It burst with a 20ft radius from where it lands / originates. So no 1000 ft long 40 ft wide swath of fiery doom.
@Pounce:
As stated I am OK with Pounce giving a regular full attack (or mounted skirmisher!). I am however NOT ok with a full attack with the lance charge damage bonus.
Because this
a) clearly breaks the game as far as damage / round goes
b) is just silly: "I charge the dragon and impale him on my lance, using all the power from my motion and the whole weight of me and my mount ... five times: stab stab stab stab stab." Yeah right.
I want to believe that Pounce should only allow one attack per limb, but the RAW doesn't outline any such limitation, and the Rough Rider already explicitly allows a mounted combatant to move in, jump off his horse and make a full attack. Nowhere does it imply they're natural weapons.
They've printed material that proves there is time to move in and still make all your iterative attacks.
I think it's interesting how far these discussions have been carried without developer intervention. But I'm not surprised. They don't want to make a decision that will anger too large a portion of their fan base. They really would like for us to work this out on our own. I think if the issue starts showing up excessively in organized play it would get addressed but how much of that goes to the levels relevant to the issue?
We're on our own.
b) is just silly: "I charge the dragon and impale him on my lance, using all the power from my motion and the whole weight of me and my mount ... five times: stab stab stab stab stab." Yeah right.So dragons, fireballs, and wish spells don't break suspension of disbelief, but a warrior infinitely more capable than anyone ever seen in the real world lancing a 150' flying, fire-breathing, spell-casting lizard more than once as he rides up to it is a road too far? Really?
Yes, really. A lance charge is an iconic trope in fantasy and romantic medieval literature / gaming. A lance charge is always a single attack.
It does not break the game. I can make a character that can one-round any monster in the Bestiary without using lances to charge.
Then the rules you are using for that build are probably whacky and need to be revised, too. One rounding any creature in the bestiary is pretty much the definiton of game-breaking.
Then the rules you are using for that build are probably whacky and need to be revised, too. One rounding any creature in the bestiary is pretty much the definiton of game-breaking.It does not break the game. I can make a character that can one-round any monster in the Bestiary without using lances to charge.
I can't agree with this. Lucky crits or archers can kill a lot of stuff in the bestiary in one round and casters can eliminate something in one round.
The two-hander fighter at level 19 can annihilate a lot of stuff in a single attack. A high level cavalier or paladin can annihilate a lot of monsters with one hit while doing a mounted charge.
I'm certainly not against characters being able to take stuff out in one round. That happens quite often in high level play. What I'm against is builds that allow for no weaknesses like the barbarian.
Every class has a few weaknesses. But the barbarian has reached a point where everything they have from DR to damage to Combat maneuvers to saving throws to hit points to the ability to deal with spells is better than every other physical damage class. That's pretty lame for other physical damage dealing classes and the DM.
I should say what I meant was "reliably taking out any creature out of the bestiary in one round".