I forget how actions work, but doesn't say full attack after movement. This does not allow a charging lance pounce. Charging was still a full round action and could not be broken up. This allows a full attack after a move as a standard action. That is different and shows the game designers were aware of how this works unless charging worked differently in 3.0.
So explain to me how this is the same? If you can make a full attack as a standard action after moving more than 5 feet, that does not mean you make a full attack at the end of a charge.
Wording is different. That is very, very clear.
Either provide the 3.0 version of charge which shows otherwise, or I must ask you the same question: Do you care to revise your assertion?
Yes, actually, it does allow a full attack on a charge. There is no actual wording in any edition of the rules that prevents you taking a full attack on a mounted charge specifically--the rule is that if your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single attack (partial action in 3.0 terms, standard action in 3.5/PF). This ability overrides that rule and allows you to make a full attack at the end of the mounted charge. BTW, Standard Actions are different between 3.0 and 3.5/PF; 3.0 Standard Actions are a Standard + Move (and can be converted to Full Round) in 3.5/PF terms.
The entire, very clear and obvious, point of that prestige class is to get devastating full attacks with a lance while charging on a mount. Everything it does and requires is based around on that.
You are incorrect. Provide the rule clarification to prove your rules interpretation.
A partial charge was only allowed when a full round charge could not be taken. Same as now, though the action named was different.
If you partial charge, you do not gain an extra standard action. Which is why the wordking says "as a standard action". Which is very different from Pounce.
This ability does not allow you take an extra standard action. It allows you to full attack as a standard action after moving more more than 5 feet. Which means you can make your move and then full attack as a standard action.
Not the following:
1. Take a partial charge and then make a full attack action. You do not get an extra standard attack.
2. To my knowledge even in 3.0 you could not take a partial charge and then make a standard action. You either did the full round charge or you made a move and then an attack.
3.0 Charge
Charge [Full][AoO: No]
Description: The character must move before attacking, not after. The character must move at least 10 feet and may move up to double base speed. All movement must be in a straight line, with no backing up allowed. The charge stops as soon as the character threatens the target. A character can't run past the target and attack from another direction.
After moving, the character may make a single melee attack or a bull rush. The character gets a +2 bonus on the attack roll. The character also suffers a -2 penalty to AC for 1 round.
A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
A target can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges by using the ready action against receiving a charge. A weapon of this type deals double damage if the readied attack is successful.
Sorry Fozbek, you are confusing how this ability reads. The wording is specific and does not grant an extra standard action if you move more than 5 feet. "As a standard action" has a very different meaning.
Charge is a full round action. You cannot reduce it to a partial action charge and a standard action. It's no different than prior.
So I ask you again, "Do you wish to change your assertion?" Or are you too intent on being right? I did my research. You were incorrect.
You want to be rude to someone, Fozbek and call them out, you better be right. In this case you were not.
I fail to see how 3.0 rules are relevant to this discussion?
The first class supplements (Swiord & Fist, Tome & Blood etc.) were famously broken anyway.
They're relevant in that full attacks with mounted charging lances have been in the game for more than a decade and across three editions. That clearly speaks to intent.
You could see it that way. You could also bemoan that the opportunity to take this insanity finally out of the game was not taken. It also its important to note that it was never part of the core rules.
"The core rules" aren't some sacred bastion of balance, you know. Cavalier dealing x4 damage with full attacks with lances on mounted charges is more balanced by several orders of magnitude than Wizards using just the 3.0 PHB. They could cast 3 spells a round thanks to haste, and the spells that are strong in Pathfinder were eye-rolling overpowered in 3.0 core.
I know.
I just do not see how the problem of overpowered high level casters (still present in PF), is alleviated in any way with martial characters who deal 800 damage per turn.
"Casters are broken, lets make the martial classes broken, too."
That can't be the solution.
CR adjustment is not really needed, its mostly a little too low anyway.
I would much rather nerf a few problematic spells than deal with ragelancepounce or equivalent aberrations.
Been doing even more reading on 3.0. Now I am even more sure of your incorrect interpretation, Fozbek
A partial charge is a single action, not a separate action as is a charge. It is very specific in what it allows you to do.
A partial charge allows you to charge 30 feet and attack once. It does not allow you take a standard action at the end of the charge. So you cannot partial charge taking your charge attack and then take a standard action to take a full attack while gaining all the benefits of the charge. The only benefit full mounted attack grants is the ability to take a move action moving your full 30 feet and then take a full attack as a standard action after taking a move action.
Not take a partial action charge which in and of itself gives an attack and then take a standard action while still benefitting from the charge.
That's now how it works. Read up on 3.0 actions as I took the time to do and you will see that a full attack with the benefits of a charge were not allowed in 3.0. The rules were specific, even if convoluted.
I hadn't read up on 3.0 in ages. Fun to read up on the old action system as it brought back memories. But it also shows quite clearly that your interpretation is incorrect.
There is no partial charge with a standard action.
There is no standard action charge that allows a second standard action.
You're either moving and using a standard action to attack.
Or your partial charging taking your single attack and then taking a seaparate standard action to make a full attack without the benefit of the charge bonuses.
That's how it works. If you have a ruling otherwise, then provide it.
I did my research and now remember quite clearly how actions work. You cannot take a partial charge and standard action and gain the benefits of the charge throughout the round.
Yes. You are correct. Actions were different. And how you adjudicate them quite clear.
The cavalier did not grant the ability to make a full attack while gaining the benfits of a charge. You are wrong.
So once again, I ask Do you wish to change your assertion?
When you say it's a 'little too low' are you accounting for the fact that CR=Party Level is supposed to be easy?
For my lvl 10 group CR 12 encounters are easy. CR 10 encounters are a joke.
Let me give you another example to show how it works.
A wizard could not partial charge, take the attack allowed by the charge, and then cast a spell gaining the charge bonus.
If what you say is true, then any character in the game could take partial charge, make their attack, and then take a second attack with the benefits of the charge. Isn't that how you're interpreting it? Why yes you are.
You are saying a cavalier can take a partial charge and then a full attack as a standard action with the full benfits of the charge. And that is not correct.
The way a charge is done is as a separate action. Which means you can either take a standard action charge (equivalent to full round) taking a single attack at the end of a double move which does not allow another standard action without haste.
Or you could take a partial charge which allows a single attack at the end of the charge as part of the charge action. But you could not then take a standard action full attack and will the full benefits of the charge.
Why? Because you already reduced your normal standard action to a partial charge. So you can either take a move action and ready a partial charge or you can take a move action and make a full attack as part of your standard action. Not both.
All the game designers were trying to do with the cavalier is allow them to move around on their mount and still get a full attack. Not allowing them to charge an opponent on a lance and get a full attack with the benefits of a charge.
And they were very clear about that which is why they spelled out the actions allowed so carefully.
After reading I don't even believe you could pull this off with a haste spell because of how specific the actions are spelled out.
The cavalier ability allows you to make a full attack as a standard action. Period.
A partial charge is a specific type of partial action useable as part of a standard action after taking a move action such as moving your speed or climbing.
A standard action allows a move action and a partial action like an attack.
A standard action allows a full attack if you don't move more than 5 feet.
The cavalier ability allows you to attack as a standard action when your mount moves more than 5 feet.
It does not allow you to charge or partial charge and attack as a standard action, which are both specific types of actions: one a standard and the other a partial action.
All spelled out very clearly. No wonder I never saw anyone use it in 3.0. It wasn't as you say it was. There was no full attack after a charge, there was only a standard action full attack after moving more than 5 feet.
Damn. 3.0 action tree. So glad they changed it.
Charge
[Full][AoO: No]
Description: The character must move before attacking, not after. The character must move at least 10 feet and may move up to double base speed. All movement must be in a straight line, with no backing up allowed. The charge stops as soon as the character threatens the target. A character can't run past the target and attack from another direction.
After moving, the character may make a single melee attack or a bull rush. The character gets a +2 bonus on the attack roll. The character also suffers a -2 penalty to AC for 1 round.
A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
A target can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges by using the ready action against receiving a charge. A weapon of this type deals double damage if the readied attack is successful.
The bolded portions:
1. The charge only alllows a single melee attack or bull rush, not a standard action.
2. The bonus on the charge is not for the entire round like the AC penalty. It is only on a single attack roll.
3. The cavalier could not charge, gain the full benefits of a lance charge, and make a full attack.
They did not allow this in 3.0 or 3.5 until I guess 2007.
I am betting the Pathfinder game designers did not intend for it either.
I am now done with the 3.0 rules discussion. Thanks for making me prove my point with supporting evidence. I knew I was right because if this were possibly, one of my players would have done it. At least a few of them love game breaking power gamer combinations. If your DM allowed it, more power to you. I think I would have seen the rules problem and not allowed it even back then.
Thanks for the debate.