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Interesting blog here.
Since it's not on the PFS Addtl resources, is it an understandable 'tweak' to allow clerics of the death or souls subdomain to swap out Animate Dead (a spell no cleric of Pharasma should ever have access to) for Speak with dead, as suggested in paizo's own blog?
RAI sometimes trumps RAW, seems this is an understandable example of allowing something that isn't on the PFS approved list (but 'RAI' should be) to be allowed at a PFS table?
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Note: This is an edited reply, in light of Gornil's observation
That's not a question of "RAW vs. RAI". That's a special exception to a game rule based on the campaign setting, because Pharasma isn't your normal death goddess.
If Mike hadn't allowed it, it wouldn't be legal.
Venture-Captain, Oregon—Portland
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According to Additional Resources that whole blog is legal for play in PFS, minus the comments.
Website Blogs
Last updated Wednesday, November 16, 2011The following blog posts are sanctioned for play with unique rules. Please note that this applies to the context of the blog post only and not the comments.
February 10, 2011: Golarion Day: Other Gods and New Subdomains
February 17, 2011: Golarion Day: Subdomains for Everyone!
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EDIT: Ninja'd. Somehow I failed to notice that part of the Addtl Resources. OP rendered moot by my bad eyesight and Gornil wins the thread, lol.
Does raise a new question imo. MUST a cleric of pharasma use the altered death/souls domains, or is he 'getting away with something' by using Animate Dead? Imo a cleric of pharasma should become an ex-cleric of pharasama if he casts Animate Dead, even if granted by domain :D
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EDIT: Ninja'd. Somehow I failed to notice that part of the Addtl Resources. OP rendered moot by my bad eyesight and Gornil wins the thread, lol.
Does raise a new question imo. MUST a cleric of pharasma use the altered death/souls domains, or is he 'getting away with something' by using Animate Dead? Imo a cleric of pharasma should become an ex-cleric of pharasama if he casts Animate Dead, even if granted by domain :D
If you used an animate dead spell and you were a cleric of Pharasma at my table, you wouldn't be a cleric of Pharasma much longer.
Though, a better point may be, how did you get that spell from Pharasma in the first place? Since you pray to her for your spells.
Though, a better point may be, how did you get that spell from Pharasma in the first place? Since you pray to her for your spells.
Thus demonstrating that perhaps Pharasman dogma is in error, and her actual view of undead is more nuanced?
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To fiend out more about Pharasma I would suggest to read the last Pathfinder Tales - Death Heretic.
The 'hero' is a inquisitor of Pharasma - and the book deals exactly with the question how does Pharasma resolve problems of her Faith. I don't want to give away the whole plot.
There clearly is a conflict between RAW in the Core Rulebook and the setting. A cleric raising undead wouldn't stay in the church for long. But you can't tailor the cleric spell list to each individual god and assume a fluent game or players choosing gods according to who grants the most powerful portfolio.
The problem for many casual players is that they don't know all the canon from Golarion. Once you read Gods and Magic, The Inner Sea Guide, Faithes of Good and the Campaign setting as well as Tales like Death Heretic or you GMed Godsmouth Heresy you understand that Pharasma and Undead don't work out together.
But if a player starts from the Core Rulebook he won't know the nuances and that he is making a big blunder in the background and how Pharasma is depicted to have a Pharasma cleric casting Animate Dead because it is RAW.
As GM we shouldn't judge these players too harshly but rather should try to educate them. I had a dwarf clericplayer in my group who followed Rovagug. Asked about his choice of deity he said - because he liked the domains and especially the great axe as favoured weapon.
He had no clue what Rovagug stands for - and that he is CE also somehow had been ignored. He hadn't even realised that he wouldn't be able to channel positive energy. And he also played it mote with tendencies of good play anyhow.
Role-play wise there was so much that shouted out to you that didn't fit. And with him using channel positive we had now a rules problem. I could have come down hard on him - likely resulting in the retirement of the character or even the player stopping to play. And I was maybe partly to blame as he had played on my table and I only realised it when we levelled up and I entered the character into HeroLab.
In the end we salvaged the situation by finding a minor (legal) dwarves god with Greataxe as favoured weapon, the right domains but an opposite alignment that actually was rules conform with positive channel as well as the way the player played.
I think education in this case was the best option. And I think that would be my preferred way forward for a Pharasman cleric wanting to animate dead. I would give him some of my books to read up on Pharasma and then to decide if that really fits to how he sees his god or if he should rather have another one - which he might not even have heard about - but who actually represents how hecsees his god and who fits his play style.
Yes - this raises the question of changes of gods - which shouldn't be allowed. And I'm aware of that. But for the specific player his god was nothing but a name until I told him more background.
Thod
Just an odd thought...
Maybe Pharasma gives her clerics Animate Dead so they have the ability to counterspell an evil cleric. The spell is a standard action to cast, so it can be done in the heat of battle.
He had no clue what Rovagug stands for - and that he is CE also somehow had been ignored. He hadn't even realised that he wouldn't be able to channel positive energy. And he also played it mote with tendencies of good play anyhow.
The cleric has to be within one step of the deity's alignment, meaning that he would have to be CN to be a legal character. In the cleric's description it states that a neutral cleric on creation chooses either channel positive or channel negative for the life of the character. So a CN cleric of a CE god who channels positive energy is legal.
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Just an odd thought...
Maybe Pharasma gives her clerics Animate Dead so they have the ability to counterspell an evil cleric. The spell is a standard action to cast, so it can be done in the heat of battle.
I answer this as I read it is a clear no.
Do you own Faiths of Balance?
This is from the section about Pharasma
Taboos
[some non important stuff]
While Necromancy has many beneficial spells that allow you to care for both the dead and the living, you may not create undead, nor control them unless you do so specifically for the purpose of destroying them.
Now - rules lawyers might argue the sentence is ambigious as I read it that the unless part only applys to everything after the ',' starting with nor. I took care I wrote it down exactly and hope I didn't get it wrong.
There are so many bits sprinkled in that Pharasma detest undead - up to her holy book dealing with special treatment that undead don't arise or one of two traits being Corpse Hunter that gives you +1 on all attacks against undead.
Canon doesn't trump rules - but a good build should try to follow canon if the player is aware of it and not try to blatently break it.
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The cleric has to be within one step of the deity's alignment, meaning that he would have to be CN to be a legal character. In the cleric's description it states that a neutral cleric on creation chooses either channel positive or channel negative for the life of the character. So a CN cleric of a CE god who channels positive energy is legal.
He had no clue what Rovagug stands for - and that he is CE also somehow had been ignored. He hadn't even realised that he wouldn't be able to channel positive energy. And he also played it mote with tendencies of good play anyhow.
Read the rules again - RPG page 40. Your interpretation is what the player thought.
Only a Neutral player who who follows a neutral deity (or who isn't devoted to any deity) can choose. It doesn't allow a neutral cleric who follows an evil cleric to channel positive energy.
If you are Chelaxian and are LN than you channel negative. You don't have a choice. If you follow Nethys or Pharasma AND you are neutral (edited wrong alignent) then you can choose.
If you follow Pharasma or Nethys and are good, then you have to channel positive.
Edit:
From the rules
A good cleric (or one who follows a good deity) channels positive.
An evil cleris (or one who follows an evil deity) channels negative.
A neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity must choose.
Just an odd thought...
Maybe Pharasma gives her clerics Animate Dead so they have the ability to counterspell an evil cleric. The spell is a standard action to cast, so it can be done in the heat of battle.
I answer this as I read it is a clear no.
Do you own Faiths of Balance?
This is from the section about Pharasma
Taboos
[some non important stuff]
While Necromancy has many beneficial spells that allow you to care for both the dead and the living, you may not create undead, nor control them unless you do so specifically for the purpose of destroying them.Now - rules lawyers might argue the sentence is ambigious as I read it that the unless part only applys to everything after the ',' starting with nor. I took care I wrote it down exactly and hope I didn't get it wrong.
There are so many bits sprinkled in that Pharasma detest undead - up to her holy book dealing with special treatment that undead don't arise or one of two traits being Corpse Hunter that gives you +1 on all attacks against undead.
Canon doesn't trump rules - but a good build should try to follow canon if the player is aware of it and not try to blatently break it.
No I haven't read Faiths of Balance and nothing I see in your post has anything to do with preparing a spell to counterspell. Not sure what reason you are saying no to it.
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Just an odd thought...
Maybe Pharasma gives her clerics Animate Dead so they have the ability to counterspell an evil cleric. The spell is a standard action to cast, so it can be done in the heat of battle.
Sorry - I misunderstood this as I didn't really paid attention to 'spell' in counter spell.
Yes - counter spell should be a situation to use Animate Dead as a Pharasman cleric.
I interpreted it as countering an evil cleric by animating dead yourself which would be a no go in my view - similar to poison use by a paladin. You just wouldn't lower yourself to do evil to get the desired end result.
Thod
Yes - counter spell should be a situation to use Animate Dead as a Pharasman cleric.
Taking Animate Dead to counterspell someone else's Animate Dead would be even less useful than Align Weapon - Law, which my cleric sadly has. She went to the Abyss last week and it *still* didn't do anything useful...
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ThornDJL7, a player doesn't have to take the Pharasma-friendly version or the Death domain. (Indeed, unless he has access to the blog post in question, he doesn't have a choice but to take the Core version of the domain.)
I was more referring to the fact that even if it's on your domain list due to RAW, you still shouldn't be able to get the spell and be able to cast it. IMO you'd essentially have a big ol' blank spot where that spell would be.
Now in light of the counterspell argument, in that situation you would be able to receive the spell, but if you cast it in my game, and were educated on Pharasma (one of my favorite gods), and then used it to animate dead. You'd find your prayers unanswered, and I'd notate your sheet stating you needed atonement.
@Thod
You just put Death's Heretic on my to buy list. Love me some Pharasma.
EDIT: Another way of explaining my original thought process. Cleric sees on his "Newbie cleric guide" that he could pray for animate dead, being a cleric with no knowledge religion, he sits down and prays to pharasma for his spells. He gets every spell he prayed for except for animate dead. Pharasma herself would not grant the spell.
Probably another topic, but I consider the Know(religion) skill for clerics being in regard to other religions. The basic tenants of the cleric's god should be part of taking the first class level.
In my eyes, if Pharasma hates undead then any cleric of Pharasma would be instructed as such regardless of Knowledge ranks or bonuses. Otherwise I agree with Pharasma not having Animate Dead as a domain spell.
Though, I still see why she would offer it for the purpose of counterspelling for roleplay reasons. The act of casting the spell rips the soul of the person from the afterlife at the time of casting. Sure you could kill the undead to send the soul back, but if the goddess really cares about her souls or really cares about her plans not being disturbed by soul-thievery, she would offer her clerics a way to stop the spell before it happened.
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IMO, Pharasma could grant Animate Dead for the sole purpose of using it as a counterspell. She is Neutral so I see no reason why she wouldn't consider using the tricks of her enemies. It's not like she is some beacon of morality like Iomedae.
They key is, "with great power comes great responsibility." I am quite sure that if you were granted access to the spell, Pharasma would keep a close eye on its use. Use it for anything other than its granted purpose and you risk divine retributive. I expect at minimum you would lose all clerical powers and have to Atone, seriously Atone.
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One can memorize a lower level spell in a higher level slot, or one can use the slot for a metamagic'd spell. To clarify, that third level domain slot ostensibly for the forbidden / nigh useless animate dead could be extended False Life (per Gods & Magic), or just plain old False Life wasting a higher level slot. It needn't be animate dead, carved in stone, come what may. You have options.
How do people feel the separatist archetype should be handled then:
A cleric of Rovagug with the Love subdomain
A cleric of Shelyn with the Destruction domain
A cleric of Sarenrae with the Darkness domain
A cleric of Asmodeus with the Liberation domain
A cleric of Iomedae with the Trickery domain
A cleric of Norgorber with the Glory domain
A cleric of Pharasma (fate) with the Luck domain
A cleric of Abadar with the Madness domain
A cleric of Zon-kuthon with the Community domain
There are some fascinating character concepts in there, and RAW they still gain cleric powers with the caveats imposed by the archetype. If those are all legitimate then a Pharasman cleric who animates undead, without even the penalties the separatist gets, seems perfectly fine to me. They may be excommunicated from the church if they do it openly, but I wouldn't strip their powers from them. Pharasma did give them the ability to cast the spell after all.
I may well play the Rovagug example mentioned above. She uses the destruction aspect of Rovagug to demonstrate the impermanence of all things, even the world, and considers her 'teachings' to be an act of love. Destroying everything that people are attached to releases them from the source of their suffering and helps them on their way towards enlightenment. Admittedly, it's not an approach the Dalai Lama is likely to take, but they're just two paths to the same goal...
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How do people feel the separatist archetype should be handled then:
A cleric of Rovagug with the Love subdomain
A cleric of Shelyn with the Destruction domain
A cleric of Sarenrae with the Darkness domain
A cleric of Asmodeus with the Liberation domain
A cleric of Iomedae with the Trickery domain
A cleric of Norgorber with the Glory domain
A cleric of Pharasma (fate) with the Luck domain
A cleric of Abadar with the Madness domain
A cleric of Zon-kuthon with the Community domain
As GM I would say it should be handled the following way:
Players don't select any completely detrimental but RAW allowed domains
GMs then wouldn't need to worry to make calls at the table
Paizo wouldn't need to add errata or FAQs how to handle it
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Taking Animate Dead to counterspell someone else's Animate Dead would be even less useful than Align Weapon - Law, which my cleric sadly has. She went to the Abyss last week and it *still* didn't do anything useful...
Yes - counter spell should be a situation to use Animate Dead as a Pharasman cleric.
"I went to the Abyss and all I got was this lousy domain power."
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Without looking at specific domain spells, IMO, it is a bit of a stretch to assume that Pharsama would grant unilateral use of Animate Dead just because it is part of a domain that she would otherwise be okay with. The same could be said about the other deity/domain combos.
The key to remember is that the deity is granting the spells when you prep. It does not make sense that Phasasma would grant a spell diametrically opposed to her spheres of concern without an extremely special set of circumstances. Again, the same would be said for other deity/domain combos.
Unless you have an idea that there is an imminent need to Animate Dead to counter-spell it being cast, I doubt she would grant it. YMMV
As GM I would say it should be handled the following way:
Players don't select any completely detrimental but RAW allowed domains
GMs then wouldn't need to worry to make calls at the table
Paizo wouldn't need to add errata or FAQs how to handle it
As GM I'd just leave it to the player to justify, although they may find themselves engaged in a theological debate if time is permitting, but I won't tell the player they cant do something just because of dogma. I'm pretty sure most religions have texts that far exceed the contents of the ISWG in quantity and open up considerable scope for interpretation.