so a RLP (no disrespect intended but RAGELANCEPOUNCE is a mouthful!) is considered to be 3d8 +150 [AM BARBARIANS is likely MUCH more.... ;) ]
However Mounted Skirmisher lets other classes do this feat, albeit with movement and range disadvantages, so with these accepted limitations are builds with full out lance attacks viable for other classes? I am thinking Paladins (SmiteLANCEPOUNCE) Cavaliers (ChallengeLANCEPOUNCE) Rangers {FavouredLANCEPOUNCE} and even Fighters {SpecWpnTrainLANCEPOUNCE} would all do very well indeed damage wise and likely push or better RLP for damage. Fighters lacking a "tough" mount are perhaps a tier down?
What about SneakAttackLancePounce?
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to this thread.
Which I have.
By typing this.
As to builds, I think fighters would suffer significantly here because having a mount that doesn't die in a stiff breeze at level 20 is so important. (Read, be unplayable.)
Easy enough. One level of Cavalier and that feat from UC and you have a level 20 mount.
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As to builds, I think fighters would suffer significantly here because having a mount that doesn't die in a stiff breeze at level 20 is so important. (Read, be unplayable.)Easy enough. One level of Cavalier and that feat from UC and you have a level 20 mount.
Actually, it's 3 levels of Cavalier, but even that is pretty negligible.
It's important to consider that you need Pounce in there somewhere. It doesn't really matter how much extra damage you're getting in one attack, you want the full round attack if you're ever going to beat the damage from a RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
Actually, it's 3 levels of Cavalier, but even that is pretty negligible.
Actually we are both wrong. Expert Trainer is Cavalier 4 which is the killer requirement for Horse Master.
Could someone point me to this RAGELANCEPOUNCE build?
My searches are bringing up a lot of references to it, but I haven't seen this 3d8 + 150/attack build yet, and I'm super curious.
Sorry to be so behind the curve.
It can get crazy!! Consider a level 20 Cavalier with Spirited Charge and level 20 Supreme Charge this would lead to a 4X damage attack {Gendarme level 20 ability i dont think is any better for multiplier due to description}, Max damage would be useful but Supreme Charges Stun on Crit is, I think, better
So 38 str {quite doable, could be higher but easier math!} Power Attack 18, Wpn 5 , Challenge 20. Result is plus 64 damage. so a charge would be,(each attack) 4d8 +256 with a free chance to bullrush, disarm ,sunder or trip. Confirmed Crits stun for 1d4 rounds.
Again this is more of a tribute to RLP, and goes to show that Barbs are not alone in charging madness! As a side note to support full attacks on a charge note that the Cavaliers Charge "special" description states that 'MELEE ATTACK ROLLS' on a charge are at =4 to hit!! If the Cavalier doesnt challenge a foe damage would still be 'respectable' at 4d8 +176
Note that your listed damage for AM is per attack, not per round.
I don't believe precision damage is increased for the use of a lance. That would leave sneak attack out. (I could be wrong though.)
Like you said, the highest damage would be the general forerunners in damage, paladin vs. evil, ranger vs. favored enemies, specialized fighter vs. everything else, etc.
As to builds, I think fighters would suffer significantly here because having a mount that doesn't die in a stiff breeze at level 20 is so important. (Read, be unplayable.)
Well if I recall correctly Trinam was talking about AM BARBARIAN taking leadership and getting a sythesist summoner as a mount. Any class can now have a killer mount!
Well if I recall correctly Trinam was talking about AM BARBARIAN taking leadership and getting a sythesist summoner as a mount. Any class can now have a killer mount!Note that your listed damage for AM is per attack, not per round.
I don't believe precision damage is increased for the use of a lance. That would leave sneak attack out. (I could be wrong though.)
Like you said, the highest damage would be the general forerunners in damage, paladin vs. evil, ranger vs. favored enemies, specialized fighter vs. everything else, etc.
As to builds, I think fighters would suffer significantly here because having a mount that doesn't die in a stiff breeze at level 20 is so important. (Read, be unplayable.)
The BEST mount! 8D
ChallengeLancePounce on a Gendarme Cavalier Beast Rider Order of the sword riding the strongest mount available.
I add the mounts strength score to my damage then multiply it x4 due to transfixing charge. Add challenge to this.
AM BARBARIAN might PIERCE THE SKY but AM CAVALIER rides a dinosaur and shatters the very foundations of reality by challenging it.
Will be workin on the cavalier guide once I finish cleaning up the cleric one. :D
EDIT: Or perhaps not a Gendarme if Nordlander is correct. I'll have to seek clarification.
The BEST mount! 8D
Well if I recall correctly Trinam was talking about AM BARBARIAN taking leadership and getting a sythesist summoner as a mount. Any class can now have a killer mount!
To be fair, not everybody can have that. BATTY is already spoken for...
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It can get crazy!! Consider a level 20 Cavalier with Spirited Charge and level 20 Supreme Charge this would lead to a 4X damage attack {Gendarme level 20 ability i dont think is any better for multiplier due to description}, Max damage would be useful but Supreme Charges Stun on Crit is, I think, better
So 38 str {quite doable, could be higher but easier math!} Power Attack 18, Wpn 5 , Challenge 20. Result is plus 64 damage. so a charge would be,(each attack) 4d8 +256 with a free chance to bullrush, disarm ,sunder or trip. Confirmed Crits stun for 1d4 rounds.
Again this is more of a tribute to RLP, and goes to show that Barbs are not alone in charging madness! As a side note to support full attacks on a charge note that the Cavaliers Charge "special" description states that 'MELEE ATTACK ROLLS' on a charge are at =4 to hit!! If the Cavalier doesnt challenge a foe damage would still be 'respectable' at 4d8 +176
So we make our man here an Order of the Sword Beast Rider and throw in a tyrannosaurus mount. Give it a belt of strength +4 for the hell of it it now has a 36 strength. So another +13 damage on the lance multiplied by 4 to throw in 52 more damage. so 4d8+308 times four attacks 16d8+1232 damage. 20d8+1540 damage if hasted.
So AM CAVALIER has not only killed the Advanced Giant Celestial Fiendish Half Dragon Half Celestial Half Fiendish Tarrasque. He has probably annihilated the landscape behind it.
Now if we decide against Gendarme entirely we can get into some Tactician teamwork feat shenanigans.
You forget you are using two lances of Speed and full TWF. Add 5 more attacks, please.
===Aelryinth
It does. Wield two kukri's of speed, you get an extra attack with each weapon. Ditto, two ends of a quarterstaff.
==Aelryinth
TarkXT,
So glad you are doing a Cavalier guide (saves me doing it and your guides are more comprehensive than mine.)
You might wanna cover:
Switch hitter cavalier. The Luring Cav wins at range and close.
Tactician focused. Outflank, Combat Reflexes is full of sex and win
So does co ordinated charge, since you just gave your whole party POUNCE.
Order of the dragon and shield are probably the best. Giving the party a +5 to attack the bbeg or giving it to your self and stem the tide is freaking awesome. the order of the shield is probably the best pin down twf you can make with a Cav.
You forget you are using two lances of Speed and full TWF. Add 5 more attacks, please.
===Aelryinth
40d8+3080?
Nah. I happen to like this universe.
It does. Wield two kukri's of speed, you get an extra attack with each weapon. Ditto, two ends of a quarterstaff.
==Aelryinth
Has this ever been confirmed officially. multiple haste effects don't stack.
Giving the party a +5 to attack the bbeg or giving it to your self and stem the tide is freaking awesome.
Not really.
I'll take more FOR THE KING thank you.
Just before my Order of the Dragon bro declares that we ACT AS ONE!
Stem the tide! Stem the tide insists we stand! I SAY THEE NAY!
CAVALIERS CHARGE!
Has this ever been confirmed officially. multiple haste effects don't stack.It does. Wield two kukri's of speed, you get an extra attack with each weapon. Ditto, two ends of a quarterstaff.
==Aelryinth
It doesn't stack with Haste. But yes, Speed effects on seperate weapons do work on those weapons.
Note: I don't LIKE it that they stack, for just this kind of numbercrunching nonsense.
The Ubercharger numbers on the WoTC Optimization boards got into orders of magnitude with this stuff.
==Aelryinth
Giving the party a +5 to attack the bbeg or giving it to your self and stem the tide is freaking awesome.Not really.
I'll take more FOR THE KING thank you.
Just before my Order of the Dragon bro declares that we ACT AS ONE!
Stem the tide! Stem the tide insists we stand! I SAY THEE NAY!
CAVALIERS CHARGE!
You DON'T like that Order of the shield are the only class that can pin with an AOO (that still does damage)? Every other ability (Standstill or Pin Down) can stop foes but the attack doesn't hurt the foe.
Protect the meek is pretty cool, but a little redundant once you swift action grant co-ordinated charge to everybody.
Cavs are like 80% of kick a$$ with 20% buffer and 30% Mounted Chargerfor 130% of Awesome! (Are you gonna cover samurai too?)
Someone's addressing cavaliers?
I get charging, but I don't understand them. This is interesting waiting to happen!
You DON'T like that Order of the shield are the only class that can pin with an AOO (that still does damage)? Every other ability (Standstill or Pin Down) can stop foes but the attack doesn't hurt the foe.
Issue is it only goes off when they provoke an AoO for moving. Compare that to say an ability that boosts everyones attack and damage by your charisma or one that lets you use scrolls without UMD rolls.
On top of that Stem the tide practicaly requires you to take combat reflexes to function appropriately.
No thx. It's an okay ability and the best one that the shield order gets but that's not saying much.
Cavaliers can do some insane damage charging.
Different perspectives I guess. Me? I like order of the shieldbecause it's the only one that gives a 'to hit' bonus for challenge. (unless you allow order of the dragon to to count as your own ally), besides order of the sword which REALLY locks you into Mounted.
I have doing other orders more suited for 2handing but the order of the shield, with combat reflexes andstem the.tide makes a damn good TWF.
Mounted is awesome, but in MOST AP'S the opportunities are limited. I found much more use focusing on teamwork and using the horse as a flank partner.
40d8+3080??!?!!?
thats like Dragon Ball Z type damage...
40d8+3080??!?!!?
thats like Dragon Ball Z type damage...
Well, some-one just went and statted out freiza, obviously the only answer is to make a build and see if he can beat him, then we will know.
Well, some-one just went and statted out freiza, obviously the only answer is to make a build and see if he can beat him, then we will know.40d8+3080??!?!!?
thats like Dragon Ball Z type damage...
Can the build be called "Over 9000"?
This thread makes me less sad.
Fear not my friend, TarkXT is a fine writer of Guides. I am sure when he is done there will be a whole slew of threads, dedicated to highlighting why we Cavaliers are so OMG Overpowered.
The charge abilities alone are enough, but few people have even mentioned our 'Smite anybody' abilities or wonderful order powers which blow feats out of the water. Or our awesome good looks. Or the fact WE can change our orders, thus not completely pinned to a feat progression that did not go our way....
I could go on, but I'll let TarkXT elaborate, I'm off to Spear a dragon on my TIGER mount (flying saddle, you know!)
I was playing with an Order of the Sword Cavalier (Beastrider).
You get a lion and boost up his strength so it is 30 at it's highest level.
So you're looking at damage something like this on a charge.
1d8 Lance
+20 challenge
+18 Power Attack
+18 str
+5 weapon
+10 mount
4d8+284 damage on a charge. Average 302.
That would be pretty nasty for a single hit.
I don't know if a board called "Advice" is the right place for that post, but carry on showing that an Epic Level Handbook is already here :)
This kind of thing makes prone to instating rules along the lines of "unless critting, no single attack can exceed 100hp in damage".
This is also the kind of thing to evoke GM RKD PC (GM RAGEKILLDEAD the PC).
This kind of thing makes prone to instating rules along the lines of "unless critting, no single attack can exceed 100hp in damage".
This is also the kind of thing to evoke GM RKD PC (GM RAGEKILLDEAD the PC).
RAGEKILLDEAD PC has got nothing on RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
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RAGEKILLDEAD PC has got nothing on RAGELANCEPOUNCE.This kind of thing makes prone to instating rules along the lines of "unless critting, no single attack can exceed 100hp in damage".
This is also the kind of thing to evoke GM RKD PC (GM RAGEKILLDEAD the PC).
They both deal similar damage, actually.
Which is to say, 'enough to kill anything.'
This kind of thing makes prone to instating rules along the lines of "unless critting, no single attack can exceed 100hp in damage".
This is also the kind of thing to evoke GM RKD PC (GM RAGEKILLDEAD the PC).
As a GM you have two pc's, one who has a good chance of doing elevenity thousand points of damage, the other who has a good chance of dominating monster. Which one is gonna be more trouble?
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One question that keeps popping up in my head with this lance charging business.... How the heck do you prevent the stickety-stick from snapping, breaking or, when you get past the 1k points of damage, disintegrating? :D
Because it's magic? :P
Can the build be called "Over 9000"?Well, some-one just went and statted out freiza, obviously the only answer is to make a build and see if he can beat him, then we will know.40d8+3080??!?!!?
thats like Dragon Ball Z type damage...
Only if someone can find a way to get it to do "Over 9000" damage in one round. Hey, we're almost half way there ;)
Only if someone can find a way to get it to do "Over 9000" damage in one round. Hey, we're almost half way there ;)Can the build be called "Over 9000"?Well, some-one just went and statted out freiza, obviously the only answer is to make a build and see if he can beat him, then we will know.40d8+3080??!?!!?
thats like Dragon Ball Z type damage...
It's possible.
Dual Wield two heavy lances.Give them both Speed and as high of fixed bonuses as possible.
Get Gargantuan size. 8-48 base per lance? +32 to Strength?
Add in a Beard attack, maybe a jaw attack. If you've got multiple arms, claw attacks. Maybe a horn attack?
Find some kind of smite ability that goes off character level.
Spirited Charge and other charge boosting feats.
And get full attacks on a charge.
3.5 Power Attacking feats, maybe. And a Valorous weapon, if allowed.
These numbers get really big, really fast.
==Aelryinth
One question that keeps popping up in my head with this lance charging business.... How the heck do you prevent the stickety-stick from snapping, breaking or, when you get past the 1k points of damage, disintegrating? :D
Because it's magic? :P
actually, yes.
You'd be the one doing the damage to the weapon, and since PC races are not intrinsically magical, and in any event the target and yourself are likely going to have an enhancement bonus less then the weapon, they cannot harm the weapon even if you do a million points of damage.
==Aelryinth
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Get Gargantuan size. 8-48 base per lance? +32 to Strength?
While getting Gargantuan size is difficult by the rules, I can see one solution that is legal (albeit still insane).
Hello, Magic Jar!
While it will not give us a +32 str bonus (which I can't see how we can get by the rules), the most efficient choice we have, I believe is body-snatching a Thanatotic Titan is the best choice. With a reduce person, it retains a str of 47, and using a manual and a belt, that will raise our str to 58.
Our lances now deal 3d8, but wait, a little lead blades spell later and our lances deal 6d6(?).
Yes, I know it is a ranger spell, but we are going to need UMD for the magic jar anyway.
When we got the skill, let add in a smite abomination (cl 25) for an additional 25 damage against an undead.
Now our mount is the problem, beastmaster or not. The only solution is the trusted old magic jar (som UMD for the mount as well).
For flavor, I would suggest a Titan Centipede with a str of 43, or 49 with a belt.
Not needing our physical abilities, we can max our cha for the knights challenge.
With these small additions our damage is going to be:
6d6 + 36(str) + 18(PA) + 6(challenge) + 25(smite) + 5(wpn) + 13(ch) + 19(mount str) = 6d6 + 122
On a charge that becomes: 24d6 +488
With a double speed lance TWF full attack we end up with damage of: 216d6 + 4392.
So by rolling a lot of 6s, we can deal a total of 5688 damage.
There is still some way to go to reach 9000... More attacks, and some extra modifiers are needed.
Only if someone can find a way to get it to do "Over 9000" damage in one round. Hey, we're almost half way there ;)Can the build be called "Over 9000"?Well, some-one just went and statted out freiza, obviously the only answer is to make a build and see if he can beat him, then we will know.40d8+3080??!?!!?
thats like Dragon Ball Z type damage...It's possible.
Dual Wield two heavy lances.
Give them both Speed and as high of fixed bonuses as possible.
Get Gargantuan size. 8-48 base per lance? +32 to Strength?
Add in a Beard attack, maybe a jaw attack. If you've got multiple arms, claw attacks. Maybe a horn attack?
Find some kind of smite ability that goes off character level.
Spirited Charge and other charge boosting feats.
And get full attacks on a charge.3.5 Power Attacking feats, maybe. And a Valorous weapon, if allowed.
These numbers get really big, really fast.
==Aelryinth
Missing just 1 little detail though...much of the damage from RAGELANCEPOUNCE comes from holding the weapon with 2 hands-1.5 str bonus, +6 extra damage from power attack (which is then multiplied by charging), all of that is quite significant, and which you lose by holding two lances 1-handed. Sure you recover some of it from the second lance, but it will not be doubled. Not even close to 1.5 times I suspect.