Lance and barbarians

[leo1925]

I have seen a barbarian build mentioned where the pouncing barbarian uses a lance. So i have to ask how exactly that helps him? Can someone show me that build?

[ShadowcatX]

leo1925 wrote:

I have seen a barbarian build mentioned where the pouncing barbarian uses a lance. So i have to ask how exactly that helps him? Can someone show me that build?

If your mount charges, you charge. If you charge you pounce. If you pounce you get lots of attacks with sick damage because of being mounted with a lance.

[Trinam]

Basically that.

To break it down a little more... He grabs a tattered 3-ring binder and opens it mysteriously

The barbarian in question, at 20th, is getting a damage amount of...

d8 + 25 (44 STR after raging, 2handing) + 18 (PA) + 7 (Enhancement from the weapon, god Furious is amazing) for a total of d8+50. This is already pretty darn respectable (Albeit low-end. This might be able to be boosted further.)

A lance at that level, on a charge, deals x3 damage after spirited charge.

This means every attack he makes is 3d8+150. With four attacks a round, this makes it (Without haste) up to 12d8+600 total damage. With haste or a speed weapon it becomes 15d8+750.

This is enough to instantly down anything in the bestiary, hence LANCES AND CHARGES!

[DragoonSpirits86]

I've seen this a couple times before and as far as i can tell PF hasnt changed any of the wording on the SRD that made this unworkable.

The way our group has always seen this there are 2 main issues, one relating to gaining charge/movement effects(Skirmish anyone?) while mounted that don't Specificly get called out as usable while mounted, and the other in the wording of Pounce.

As to the latter:
Charging is a full round action that restricts you to specific movement and a Single attack:
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move."

Mounted combat specificly notes that:
"If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack."

These are similar, but NOT identicle restrictions. While mounted, any movement prevents any and all kinds of attacks past the limit of 1.

Pounce notes it can be used to allow a full attack after a charge action.
"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."

This DOES NOT bypass the clause specifly related to mounted combat noting that more than 5 ft. movement has occured.

Also, these differences are made more clear later in the mounted combat section with the further details of:
"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

This is not the same, as you simplified it to, as "If mount charges YOU charge." Again, charging is a Special full round action, and for a mount to charge its using its actions, not yours. Nothing except what is explicitly noted to work in this case should be applicable to the "PC charges" trigger, because you are not, in fact charging. Mounted combat just happens to note, for instance, you still gain the benefits of lances and mounted feats like spirited charge in this case. The wording would be useless and incredibly redundant if, RAI they simply meant'Mount charge=you charge."

As to the former:
This one is more ambiguous, but Pounce does not make it clear that the ability to make a full round attack indeed makes EVERY attack IN the full attack a charge attack, or just the initial single attack. The 2 possible ways to read it are
1. just as you intended, and the entire full attack becomes PART of the charge action itself.
2.The normal Charge full round action is taken, and the Pounce special attack triggers, allowing you to continue to make attacks as a full attack option AFTER the charge is completed, meaning the rest of the attacks miss out on both the +2 to hit and other charge related bonuses.

Has there been any direct notice on how this was intended?

[Squawk Featherbeak]

if there's still enough feats, you could actually dual wield lances on a mount (although looking stupid) or you could have a large lance for 2d6 (although this will be unusable out of mount)

[Trinam]

DragoonSpirits86 wrote:

"If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

Pounce is a bonus gained from a charge.

More to the point, if you're arguing that the mount using a charge action is not you using a charge action... (which is what I believe you're arguing because of the quote below)

DragoonSpirits86 wrote:

Again, charging is a Special full round action, and for a mount to charge its using its actions, not yours.

Consider that this feat:

Da SRD wrote:

Spirited Charge (Combat)

Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount of damage.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

And also this feat:

Da SRD wrote:

Ride-by Attack (Combat)

While mounted and charging, you can move, strike at a foe, and then continue moving.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.

Now do nothing, since it is the mount that is using the charge action under your logic and not you.

I'm sorry, but I think there's a hole in your logic brah.

[Skyth]

I guess those feats do nothing then if you want to play by RAW :)

[Trinam]

Skyth wrote:

I guess those feats do nothing then if you want to play by RAW :)

Yes, clearly that is the point I was trying to make. 8D

[leo1925]

So are we talking about mounted fury barbarians or barbarians who buy A LOT of horses?

[Trinam]

leo1925 wrote:

So are we talking about mounted fury barbarians or barbarians who buy A LOT of horses?

Either, though Mounted Fury/Superstitious is probably more optimal.

Leadership is the best though if you can do it. :P

[leo1925]

Ok thanks.

[Mike Schneider]

I, and probably most GMs, wouldn't allow more than one attack (the first) to score Spirited's x3 on a charge.

[Akeaka]

How are you guaranteeing him hitting each and every time?

[unforgivn]

Akeaka wrote:

How are you guaranteeing him hitting each and every time?

His attacks start at roughly +47 to hit. That means that his final iterative hits the tarrasque with anything higher than 7 on the die (or 4 on the die if you consider the tarrasque flat-footed from being charged at from beyond its Perception range).

AM hits the tarrasque on anything but a natural 1 with his first 2 iteratives at normal AC and his first 3 iteratives at his flat-footed AC. Add the basically auto-hit attack from haste on there and you're looking at 414-562 damage after DR if he doesn't fumble an attack.

[Pinky's Brain]

The lack of explicit rules for mounted charges counting as charging for the rider has always been a blemish on mounted pouncers, even in 3.5 ... the solution in 3.5 for people who wanted 100% unambiguity was always to use centaurs, since they counted as mounted for lances according to RoF. Those rules don't seem to exist in PF though.

[Nickademus42]

My biggest question since I saw this build was if pounce was meant to be a single attack with each weapon (since it originally came from lions which had 4 separate claws and a bite). If using a single attack for multiple iterations, would you get any charge bonuses? Theoretically, after the first hit, you no longer have the momentum for the +2 attack and 3x damage. You're just quickly stabbing with a lance before riding away.

Obvious logic problems with RAGELANCEPOUNCE but I still like it because it's neat to think of monsters walking along and suddenly exploding in gore without getting to roll Initiative. :D

[leo1925]

Mike Schneider wrote:

I, and probably most GMs, wouldn't allow more than one attack (the first) to score Spirited's x3 on a charge.

And if i know of this house rule before making such a character (so i wouldn't even try) i have no problem with that.

Anyway thank you all for answering my questions.

[Name Violation]

i always thought there was a clause in pounce that said only the first attack gets the charging bonus.

[ShadowcatX]

There is no caveat that says pounce and charging works any way other than the way AM is using it. A house rule is certainly not a bad idea in this case, but it is still a house rule.

[NeverNever]

However the rule that says you can only get one attack if your mount moves more than 5 feet has nothing to do with whether you are charging not, it's just a condition of being mounted.

On the other hand... mounted skirmisher looks like it supersedes that.