Make a stand for Orcish rights in Golarion!


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Freehold DM wrote:

As Isis, Set, you do me one better. I

As an aside, in my version of the monstrous manual or whatever I end up calling it, i have replaced "always" with "usually" when it comes to alignment, and the duergar arte the once noble rear -guard of the dwarves who went to the surface to

AAARRGGHH!! PHONE MESSED UP MY POST!!!!


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Gorbacz wrote:
There's nothing more beautiful than the sound of orcish babies burned alive after you obliterate their village and chop their parents to pieces. Blowing up drow cities and decimating mind flayer colonies has nothing on that. The sound, the delicious crispy noise of burning flesh, that sweet tingling that your conscience has for 5 seconds before you remind yourself of how might makes right. Delicious.

So you have seen my druid interact with orcs before. Cool.


Is this where I come to step on an orcs rights?


Gorbacz wrote:
There's nothing more beautiful than the sound of orcish babies burned alive after you obliterate their village and chop their parents to pieces. Blowing up drow cities and decimating mind flayer colonies has nothing on that. The sound, the delicious crispy noise of burning flesh, that sweet tingling that your conscience has for 5 seconds before you remind yourself of how might makes right. Delicious.

Deliciously Evil, you were probably supposed to say. I can't help but imagine how frustrated (in more ways than one, derp) your Chaotic Evil character is for not getting to kill elves and other beings "just because they are good" then, which is kinda funny when you're playing a murderous psychopath who justifies his murder sprees by claiming that he's one of the good guys :3

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
There's nothing more beautiful than the sound of orcish babies burned alive after you obliterate their village and chop their parents to pieces. Blowing up drow cities and decimating mind flayer colonies has nothing on that. The sound, the delicious crispy noise of burning flesh, that sweet tingling that your conscience has for 5 seconds before you remind yourself of how might makes right. Delicious.
Deliciously Evil, you were probably supposed to say. I can't help but imagine how frustrated (in more ways than one, derp) your Chaotic Evil character is for not getting to kill elves and other beings "just because they are good" then, which is kinda funny when you're playing a murderous psychopath who justifies his murder sprees by claiming that he's one of the good guys :3

Maybe in your black/white "grimdark is bad" games, yes :)

That one particular character kills sentient beings only when he has no other choice. Orcs aren't sentient beings.


Orcs not sentient, you say?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sentient

"Lifeform with the capability to feel sensation, such as pain." - Conclusion: Orcs are sentient, whether you like it or not.
Also, the amount of enjoyment he takes in killing goes a bit against the notion of "doing it only when he has no choice" :3


Icyshadow wrote:

Orcs not sentient, you say?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sentient

"Lifeform with the capability to feel sensation, such as pain." - Conclusion: Orcs are sentient, whether you like it or not :3
Also, the amount of enjoyment he takes in killing goes a bit against the notion of "doing it only when he has no choice"

That's crazy talk, orcs can't form a sentence!


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"why is the xp still talking?" Stabs the Orc


As the DM, I am banning you, Paladin, for excessive meta-gaming. Have a nice day =w=

Scarab Sages

MC PALADIN AM SUCK AT SMITE EVIL. PALADIN AM REQUESTING MC TURN IN HOLY SYMBOL.


"Am seems confused. They detected evil" Looks in the book, confirms they are evil. " Yep evil!" Smites the Orc


I support this motion.

No, wait, this is FOR the preservation of orcs.

I'm all for wiping the suckers out. Females, kids, everything.

It's not a question of good/evil or sentience. They're ugly. The whole race. They get a charisma penalty, and races with a charisma penalty should be wiped out.

I could see making an exception for tieflings. Their penalty is weird, anyway.


DRUID AM OKAY WITH GETTING TO KNOW ORCS. JUST AM NOT SURE WHETHER USE DIPLOMACY OR WILD EMPATHY.

BAZINGA!


"Well Tieflings or Dwarfs don't breed as fast as Orcs, trust me I have done...umm..research"

Dark Archive

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*dons the ole Hellknight helmet*

Stay your hands, brother paladins. Orcs, like the dwarves before them, are vile creatures from beneath the earth. They are savage, ferocious in battle, and possessed of an erratic temperament. Nevertheless, they are possessed of positive qualities, and an appropriate period of slavery serves to dull their bloodthirst and make them receptive to the blessings of civilization.

In Cheliax, we have integrated several orc communities. They retain a faculty for producing earthworks and mining. So long as one permits them hunting rights and alcohol, they are agreeable. Older orc communities have gradually given way to half-orc ghettos, and the miscegenation of races often portends a decay of moral character and public order that requires close attention.

In time, it is my belief that the orc race may be trusted with the full rights of citizenship. Though I suspect not within my own lifetime.


"AM AGREES, oRC TASTE GOOD WITH CHICKEN"

Paizo Employee Creative Director

kaymanklynman wrote:


HAIL TUROSH MAK!!!!!

HA! Yay! Turosh Mak!

Dark Archive

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Morally confused Paladin wrote:
"Am seems confused. They detected evil" Looks in the book, confirms they are evil. " Yep evil!" Smites the Orc

The vast, vast majority of orcs are less than 5 HD, so they won't detect as evil unless actively engaged in or planning acts of evil, which, ironically, could happen even if they are neutral or even *good,* leading you to waste a Smite attempt!

It would also take 3 rounds to identify them as such, if they were over 5 HD, during which time, if they were the source of the evil you were sensing, they would have probably verified their evilness long before you finished spinning around with your hand on your temple, trying to find out where the evil is coming from.

Since many of their priests worship Gorum, even their *clerics* might not have an aura of evil (although they will have an aura of chaos)...

For a spell named 'detect evil,' it's surprisingly bad at what it does.


"Yes, Not a great spell but, they are Orcs" Shug " Odds are very Good they will be smitten, smitted, hurt really, really good By the awesome end of my sword"


Icyshadow wrote:

Orcs not sentient, you say?

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sentient

"Lifeform with the capability to feel sensation, such as pain." - Conclusion: Orcs are sentient, whether you like it or not.
Also, the amount of enjoyment he takes in killing goes a bit against the notion of "doing it only when he has no choice" :3

That is a pretty broad defination of sentience there....I thnk any animal can feel the sensation of pain....heck it could be argued that some plants can feel it too.

I agree orcs are sentient...just with the defination you used it sorta feels like we have watered down the sentient club requirements so just about anything can join.


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Goblins are both smarter and wiser then your average orc. Which is sad.

Dark Archive

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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Goblins are both smarter and wiser then your average orc. Which is sad.

Goblin mechanics and goblin fluff come from two completely different worlds. They are repeatedly described as lacking the wits or sense the gods gave a woodchuck.

-4 Int, -2 Wis and -2 Cha would be quite suitable, mechanically, for the crazy impulsive often-get-themselves-killed distracted-in-combat-by-boogers goblins, but, instead, they are equal to humans, and equally likely to pump out their own Socrates or Sun Tzu.

And if you turn one into a slavering flesh-devouring ghoul, it becomes smarter, significantly wiser and quite a bit more charming and personable than a human. Go figure.

Monster stats. What can ya do?


I agree goblin stats should have been changed, a hit in wisdom at lest. But you can be very smart and simply lack the common sense of a woodchuck and be easily distracted.

On the other hand Orc stats do match the in game fluff.


+1 Set... I never understood that myself.
I feel like the only explanation is that Paizo wanted to keep the door open for Caster Goblins,
but the end result is just baffling to me...
Better to have Traits/Feats that cancel out the CHA penalty for purposes of X class (like Tieflings).


James Jacobs wrote:
Draco Bahamut wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


If you're not playing in Golarion, then my arguments and opinions on orcs are pretty much irrelevant. It's only if you're using Golarion, or looking to modify Golarion, or want to build a world LIKE Golarion that my arguments matter... and even then, I present them as nothing more than my philosophies so that folks can see why things are the way they are in Golarion, and so that they can make informed decisions about any changes they might want to make.

My problem isn´t that orcs aren´t good guys or bad guys, my problem with Golarion orcs is that they are kind of bland. Goblins got a nice redesign, elfs and drows too, but the orcs of Golarion brought no deepth. Where are the great orc shamans traditions or war-machines ? Where are the great orc warlords that shove fear in the armies of Lastwall ? Ok, the orcs of golarion are bad guys, but they aren´t villains, they are just low level thugs. I guess that after Red Hand of Doom mister Jacobs has been saving the spot of the great adversaries of humanity for the hobgoblins when they make their appearance in Golarion, but if they don´t give us legendary orc heros, they could at least let some infamous orc really bad guys slip by so we could relate to them.

Please, more love to Belkzen, Orcs of Golarion wasn´t inspired enought.

Fair enough. It's certainly true that we haven't done much at all with orcs.

Yet.

That will change soon enough.

Does this mean we get Orc cheesecake? I want Orc cheesecake!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Set wrote:
Morally confused Paladin wrote:
"Am seems confused. They detected evil" Looks in the book, confirms they are evil. " Yep evil!" Smites the Orc

The vast, vast majority of orcs are less than 5 HD, so they won't detect as evil unless actively engaged in or planning acts of evil, which, ironically, could happen even if they are neutral or even *good,* leading you to waste a Smite attempt!

It would also take 3 rounds to identify them as such, if they were over 5 HD, during which time, if they were the source of the evil you were sensing, they would have probably verified their evilness long before you finished spinning around with your hand on your temple, trying to find out where the evil is coming from.

Since many of their priests worship Gorum, even their *clerics* might not have an aura of evil (although they will have an aura of chaos)...

For a spell named 'detect evil,' it's surprisingly bad at what it does.

You know paladins don't take 3 rounds to detect evil in pathfinder, right? ;)


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:


Does this mean we get Orc cheesecake? I want Orc cheesecake!

You seen the inquisitor right, she even has her own porn! Ok her and the fighter but still.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:


Does this mean we get Orc cheesecake? I want Orc cheesecake!
You seen the inquisitor right, she even has her own porn! Ok her and the fighter but still.

She's nice, but she's a half-orc.


And not a monster :), Monsters do not normally get cheesecake. Well other then drow, people like near naked black chicks..go fig.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:


Fair enough. It's certainly true that we haven't done much at all with orcs.

Yet.

That will change soon enough. [/i]
.

Personally, I think the best character development the orcs of Golarion ever got was way back in the story segments of the APs where Eando Kline worked his way through Belkzen.  All the different tribes, individuals, settlement details, and (violent) customs he encountered along the way did wonders to personify orcs as a people in Golarion.  I'm away from my AP collection right now, but I want to give the writer(s) big kudos and recommend anyone who sees the orcs of Golarion as under-characterized read those stories!  Now if I could only remember which volumes they were...


James Jacobs wrote:
kaymanklynman wrote:


HAIL TUROSH MAK!!!!!

HA! Yay! Turosh Mak!

I am glad that you remembered him.

My opinion is: Orcs are evil so, RELEASES THE HORDES...SEEK and DESTROY.

Silver Crusade

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JMD031 wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
JMD031 wrote:
If Orcs are not villians then their only niche they could fill is comedy relief which is by far a worse fate than being Evil. Just look at the kobold.
Absolute false dichotomy. There are plenty of serious directions one can take orcs that don't require them to be always-evil villains.
Really? Name 3 that aren't already taken up by some other race.

Seriously?

Okay, off the top of my head and with no effort, focusing on characterizing orcs by strength and paassion as per Irnk's take, which I agree with in part.

1. Those playing catch-up. Younger and shorter lived than the other races, they've been largely left behind in terms of technical development, and are starting with a handicap when it comes to catching up with their neighbors. They generally have more drive than the other races, and their determination often gets the best of them, causing them trouble even as it carries them through adversity. When it comes to work, they don't cleave to tradition like dwarves or take their time contemplating an issue like elves. They just get @#$% done, even if it kills them.

2. Thrill seekers. They don't live long and are thus left with a need to leave a mark on the world that will outlast them. Deeds are greater than words for them, and great acts of bravery(for good or ill) are more viable in their eyes than works that may take more time than they have. Courage is a cheap commodity for them at this point, and too many orcs live fast and die young trying to make their names.

3. OH HEY, NON-PRETTY NOBLE SAVAGE RACE TOO.

Silver Crusade

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Steven Tindall wrote:

I blame a certain forgotten realms ranger for this entire mess of bad guys being looked at as something other than cannon fodder or exp givers.

Certain races are evil by their make up and culture other wise where do the HEROES!! come in at. If all the green skins are singing com-by-ya and all the vampires are sparkly when they walk into the sunlight and all the dragons are wise sages of benevolence and salt water taffy where can heroes be heroes?

Oh boy, a Drizzt and Twilight reference.

Instead of assigning motives to other gamers for their preferences, why not simply ask them why they prefer certain things instead of taking potshots at them?

Personally, I've always hated the notion of inherently evil mortal races. It's always made me uncomfortable. I hate genocide. I hate the notion of entire races of sapient beings being tagged as alright to murder. But I sure as hell don't go around insulting gamers that do prefer their monster races as black hats. I just want some support for my game too, like they've gotten for decades.

And heroes can certainly be heroes in a world where you don't have entire races as evil just because they're members of that race. You can even have black-and-white morality in a setting where goblins, orcs, gnolls, medusas, etc. can be of any alignmnet, because such a setting still has ample room for truly evil villains, and Always Evil organizations.

You don't need to have genocide in order for heroes to be heroes.


The race you are wanting is not the race as presented in any version of D&d or in pathfinder. Orcs are built to be what they are, not all orcs are evil but if left alone they become what they become every time. They are simply not built to be the race you want. They are born with less intelligence and more aggression then most "normal" races.

Many Monster races are monster races not because of looks, but because their very nature drags them back to what they are. Left to themselves goblins will be goblins and Orcs will be orcs.You have a better chance of uplifting hobgoblins then orcs without changing the race in some manner.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Draco Bahamut wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


If you're not playing in Golarion, then my arguments and opinions on orcs are pretty much irrelevant. It's only if you're using Golarion, or looking to modify Golarion, or want to build a world LIKE Golarion that my arguments matter... and even then, I present them as nothing more than my philosophies so that folks can see why things are the way they are in Golarion, and so that they can make informed decisions about any changes they might want to make.

My problem isn´t that orcs aren´t good guys or bad guys, my problem with Golarion orcs is that they are kind of bland. Goblins got a nice redesign, elfs and drows too, but the orcs of Golarion brought no deepth. Where are the great orc shamans traditions or war-machines ? Where are the great orc warlords that shove fear in the armies of Lastwall ? Ok, the orcs of golarion are bad guys, but they aren´t villains, they are just low level thugs. I guess that after Red Hand of Doom mister Jacobs has been saving the spot of the great adversaries of humanity for the hobgoblins when they make their appearance in Golarion, but if they don´t give us legendary orc heros, they could at least let some infamous orc really bad guys slip by so we could relate to them.

Please, more love to Belkzen, Orcs of Golarion wasn´t inspired enought.

Fair enough. It's certainly true that we haven't done much at all with orcs.

Yet.

That will change soon enough.

Does this mean we get Orc cheesecake? I want Orc cheesecake!

I am ok with killing the Orc and taking his cheesecake instead of pie.


"Why no want orcs be orcs?"

Shadow Lodge

This thread. I just don't know. :|

Liberty's Edge

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TOZ wrote:
This thread. I just don't know. :|

I get the impression some people aren't playing the right game. They'd probably be happier playing "Sunshine and Rainbows" or something...

Shadow Lodge

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You're right, some people do need to be playing a different game. Warhammer 40K comes to mind.

Dark Archive

AM CONFUSED wrote:
"Why no want orcs be orcs?"

*dons the Hellknight helmet again*

Because law and order must prevail. And your nature is antithetical to that. Take heart, savage: your pain and suffering betters you.


If you want to play an ork, play shadowrun or WoW :) I vote shadowrun myself.


Kegluneq wrote:
AM CONFUSED wrote:
"Why no want orcs be orcs?"

*dons the Hellknight helmet again*

Because law and order must prevail. And your nature is antithetical to that. Take heart, savage: your pain and suffering betters you.

"Why U USE bIG WORD? AM SO CONFUSEDED"

Liberty's Edge

I believe someone has a phrase that applies here.

Home rule it and move on.

Liberty's Edge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Many Monster races are monster races not because of looks, but because their very nature drags them back to what they are. Left to themselves goblins will be goblins and Orcs will be orcs.You have a better chance of uplifting hobgoblins then orcs without changing the race in some manner.

What. The. Hell.

Dark Archive

AM CONFUSED wrote:
Kegluneq wrote:
AM CONFUSED wrote:
"Why no want orcs be orcs?"

*dons the Hellknight helmet again*

Because law and order must prevail. And your nature is antithetical to that. Take heart, savage: your pain and suffering betters you.

"Why U USE bIG WORD? AM SO CONFUSEDED"

*Hellknightin'*

Alright. Orc! Take up that pick and work. If you do, you will eat. If not, pain.

Hrmph. The Chelaxian burden.


Kegluneq wrote:


*Hellknightin'*

Alright. Orc! Take up that pick and work. If you do, you will eat. If not, pain.

Hrmph. The Chelaxian burden.

Chews on hellknight helmet "BAD! TASTE BAD! WHY U NO HAVE PIE? ME LIKE PIE"

Liberty's Edge

Drakli wrote:
Personally, I think the best character development the orcs of Golarion ever got was way back in the story segments of the APs where Eando Kline worked his way through Belkzen.  All the different tribes, individuals, settlement details, and (violent) customs he encountered along the way did wonders to personify orcs as a people in Golarion.  I'm away from my AP collection right now, but I want to give the writer(s) big kudos and recommend anyone who sees the orcs of Golarion as under-characterized read those stories!  Now if I could only remember which volumes they were...

I think those were in the CotCT AP. Does A History of Ashes sound right?

Silver Crusade

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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
The race you are wanting is not the race as presented in any version of D&d or in pathfinder.

Actually orcs as "not always evil" have been in various D&D settings. It's just that even in Eberron, we never got to see them fully explored like we have for elves and dwarves several times over.

houstonderek wrote:
I get the impression some people aren't playing the right game. They'd probably be happier playing "Sunshine and Rainbows" or something...

Despite anything they say to the contrary?

Just because someone doesn't like "genocide is good!" or Always Chaotic Evil doesn't mean they want Happyland.

houstonderek wrote:


Home rule it and move on.

Again, that works if you're a GM.

It also doesn't make a Pathfinder-quality sourcebook for non-stereotypically-evil orcs appear.


Mikaze wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
The race you are wanting is not the race as presented in any version of D&d or in pathfinder.

Actually orcs as "not always evil" have been in various D&D settings. It's just that even in Eberron, we never got to see them fully explored like we have for elves and dwarves several times over.

Yet when you get into the setting most of these "non evil" Orcs live pretty much like all other orcs, raiding and looting and being big evil and disorganized barbarians, then in the shadowmarches most of the "Good" places are mostly half orc with some orc thrown in while most of the "evil" places are full orcs worshiping the dragon below.

Its just the same with better PR.

Liberty's Edge

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Steven Tindall wrote:

Certain races are evil by their make up and culture other wise where do the HEROES!! come in at. If all the green skins are singing com-by-ya and all the vampires are sparkly when they walk into the sunlight and all the dragons are wise sages of benevolence and salt water taffy where can heroes be heroes?

Heroes fight the cold-hearted elves, insane gnomes, expansionist humans, and stupiddumbshort halflings.

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