Make a stand for Orcish rights in Golarion!


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Liberty's Edge

Icyshadow wrote:
I brought up the Nazis only as it felt appropriate given how I felt about the whole "always evil" thing and the implications it brings on about the player characters and their intentions. Anyway, I wonder if James Jacobs or any of the other members of Paizo staff is even noticing this thead.

Some snitch went and told on everyone in his thread. =`( (that is a tear of sadness or something, I don't know how these emoticons work)

Scarab Sages

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Waah waah waah....Try being one of the heart beat challenged sometime.

Or, homerule it and get over it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There's this goblin in a red cloak I can hook you up with.


I have tried 6o address this issue in my homebrew campaign setting. On the world of Wune, Orcs are one of the First Races created by the gods. They were cursed for the role they played in the gods downfall, but still have some of the gifts they were called into being with. Despite having lowered intelligence, Orcs are renown for their eidetic memories and almost savant - level skill set. Orcs never forget a face or a phrase, even if they don't fully understand it, and have a rich oral tradition. The few other First Races that remember what life was like before the Divine War still prize Orcs for their memories and occasional tales of times gone past and refer to them as Reminders.

I'm working on ways to develop this. Most Orcs that have the wherewithal to become wizards become specialists, their few Bards focus on drumming and the spoken word instead of song and wind instruments, etc.


This is an odd choice for a bottle episode. {munches popcorn and jots notes for A Very Special Episode of Cougartown}


Mikaze wrote:
Absolutely not. But many of us also want more range beyond Always Chaotic Evil for our orcs. A lot of us would love to see alternate cultures as richly developed as what has been given to the other races rather than just the same old thing. And many of us would like to not have rape forced into our half-orcs origins.

I don't have a problem with good orc society in a game world...but I don't have problems with a inherently evil races in fantasy either. And orcs are not Always CE. That designation does not exist in PF.

If you don't want to have rape in your character background than have your orcish parent be a good aligned orc who married the human parent. There is absolutely nothing that I have read that say this is impossible.

Mikaze wrote:
There are plenty of ways to make orcs feel like orcs that don't depend on making them completely evil monsters. Same thing for half-orcs, plenty of ways to make them feel unique without requiring them to be tragic down tot he last one.

And just a minor point I think any half breed will have to a certain extent a tragic background. Or are you complete ignoring how half elves written? No matter how 'enlightened' you make the society.

Mikaze wrote:
All it takes is some creativity. Values dissonance alone could make non-evil orcs stand out as clearly orcy while being their own thing.

Ok how would you go about creating a orc that is a orc without the evil aligned culture? I don't mean to be flippant here I am really curious to hear people ideas on alternative cultures for orcs(r any race for that matter)

Mikaze wrote:
As for losing the RP-opportunity about "what to do with the women and children"... Honestly, in my experience it's mostly been used as an excuse for some players to commit "heroic" genocide and make other players miserable. Personally, it's never been fun for me when playing a genuinely good character to have attempts at sparing and/or redeeming orcs/goblins/whatever shut down or blow up and backfire "just because that's how they are". And RP-opportunities don't go away when a race is given range and nuance. They grow.

I am sorry to hear about the people you play with...though from your description on another thread about your group(in the Curse of the Crimson Throne game I believe)...I don't think your current group as the issue of killing things on sight.

Yes a poor GM has everything ALWAYS meet with failure...but actualy reading the orcs desciption in the Beatiary they chalk up all of their evil behavior to culture...so logic would entail that raising orcs in a loving enviroment could produce a good orc.

The thing is as orcs stand now I see great range and nuances...it might not be what you are looking for but it is there.

Mikaze wrote:
It would also be nice to see less skittishness about using half-orcs in art simply because they're "monstrous" looking. In this post-WoW world, I really don't think that's going to confuse gamers all that much to see a heroic half-orc.

That I can agree with...more because well ugly people can't be heroic? Than anything to do with race or such.

Mikaze wrote:
As for there being no Canon Police...well that's great if one is the GM. Not so much if you're a player looking to Orcs of Golarion for help.

Well it is the GM's game....if he wants a inherently evil races( a mainstay for most fantasy) than that is his or her right. Personaly I hate absolutes like that and aviod them as a GM...but I do recognize a GMs right to run the game as he wants to.

Here is a morale question...if race is inherently evil...is it ok to commit genocide on that race?


Icyshadow wrote:
I'm as much angered by the treatment of the Orcs in Golarion as a whole as I am angered by James' view on them (mostly because his view was overly biased, and he wasn't even sorry about that). Always Chaotic Evil is an exceedingly stupid trope, and if the Orcs in my setting end up like that while I am the DM, I will also declare that every Paladin MUST play Lawful Stupid or I will have them lose their powers very fast. Yes, a large amount (60%-70%) of Orc tribes are evil (unless you are playing a Pathfinder game in Eberron), BUT I think there should also be like a 30%-40% population of chaotic neutral Orc tribes. Good as an alignment for an Orc should still be uncommon among Orcs, but not to the point that we will have the Driz'zt syndrome all over again.

People keep bring up Ebberon as the gold standard of orc(and other monstrous) races equality...when yes they paid lipped service to non-evil orcs and such...but really never carried thru with it. You can only really find the nature loving orcs in small pockets of the world...the rest are the CE beastlies that we all know.

Liberty's Edge

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Occupy Mordor!

Dark Archive

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Random unrelated thoughts;

It's intriguing to think of the standard orc as being a larval stage (that 99% of them never outgrow). Everything in orc society is about strength and proving oneself and keeping an eye out for those wishing to advance their own reputations by kicking your butt. As they age, their physical attributes begin to decline, and their mental attributes drift up into human racial averages. It could be interesting if the orcs, similar to the Tolkein-ish originations, have an extremely long maturity, and retreat from traditional orc lands to the company of other orcs that have outlived the 'might is right' part of their life-cycle. (For their part, the younger orcs assume that the older orcs have just wandered off to die...)

Part of the role-playing angst of being a half-orc is that orcs are so terribly disappointing, culturally. Their natural inclination is to tear stuff down, and so they end up living in places that they have stolen from other people, that increasingly end up falling down around them. I could see a half-orc being 'the Worf,' with unrealistic and naive assumptions about orcish battle-glory and 'noble savagry' or whatever, and being terribly disillusioned to meet real orcs, who have no interest in glory or honor or whatever, and are all backstabbing poison-using race-betraying treacherous dicks.

It could be interesting to play with that setting preconception, rather than think about it out of game, to make a half-orc character who is a skilled bard or archaelogist, devoted to uncovering the 'secret history' of orcs, and how, back in the really old days, they were more cultured and advanced, or whatever, before the taint of Rovagug leaked from his prison and tainted their race with rage and a lust for destruction. The half-orc might not care one bit that this secret history is a tissue of lies (or might completely believe it himself), and might work with Pathfinders or a similar group to plant forgeries in ancient dig sites to 'prove' his theories, using his position to 'edit' the past!

He might, on occasion, come across as 'the Chekhov,' forever saying that 'X is a Russian inwention!' and claiming that various sites or artifacts are 'clearly of proto-orcish construction!' and yet, being a clever and persuasive fellow, occasionally end up with populations of true believers, and even controversial published dissertations on the subject of the 'proto-orcish culture' and how it has been expunged from the historical record by dwarvish, etc. machinations...

Even more fanciful theories might include that the peaceful, simple and physically powerful orcs were originally used as slave-labor in the Darklands by a cruel dwarven empire, who regarded them as sub-human beasts. A great revolution by the oppressed orcish slaves led to the disintegration of the dwarven empire, and the orcs fled to the surface in the great 'Quest for Sky,' pursued by the vengeance obsessed remnants of the once-mighty dwarven empire. Even today, one can travel to the Darklands and see the dwarves who remained behind, gray-skinned dour slavers called the Duergar, who are the *true* face of dwarven kind, as cruel and heartless beings. Dwarves will deny it with red-faced bluster and threats of terrible violence, but the Duergar are their true face, and the surface dwarves are those who chased their former subject-race to the surface, in a genocidal campaign, only belatedly claiming to have 'quested for sky' when they discovered a rich surface world to begin to claim and settle for themselves.

The Exchange

In actual seriousness, I look a Good Orc or two, and I have them occasionally in my games. My player's never get to them, because they get bored in my games, or destroyed, but they're there.

The evil-ocity of the orc is simply a legacy, and I see no reason why it can't be house-ruled out. That's what I've always done, and that's what I'll continue to do.

Dark Archive

Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
The evil-ocity of the orc is simply a legacy, and I see no reason why it can't be house-ruled out. That's what I've always done, and that's what I'll continue to do.

The lawful-ocity of the earlier edition orcs was also a legacy, that got phased out in later years, so it's not much more of a step to phase out the evil as well.

I don't miss them being pig-men, myself. I do miss the hobgoblins dressing like samurai, and the succubi being topless. :)


Set wrote:

I do miss...the succubi being topless. :)

Here, here! (Or is it hear, hear?)

I am currently reading Gary Gygax's Gord the Rogue books. They're not very good novels, but, it's amazing how "adult" they are. You don't find much swearing or mention of sodomy in the DragonLance books, that's for sure!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Doodlebug Anklebiter wrote:
Set wrote:

I do miss...the succubi being topless. :)

Here, here! (Or is it hear, hear?)

I am currently reading Gary Gygax's Gord the Rogue books. They're not very good novels, but, it's amazing how "adult" they are. You don't find much swearing or mention of sodomy in the DragonLance books, that's for sure!

I tend to think of them as a very verbose form of pulp fiction.


As Isis, Set, you do me one better. I
As an aside, in my version of the monstrous manual or whatever I end up calling it, i have replaced "always" with "usually" when it comes to alignment, and the duergar arte the once noble rear -guard of the dwarves who went to the surface to


Time was, we'd (unjustly) depict foreigners and minorities as monstrous races.

Now we depict monstrous races as foreigners and minorities.


Make a stand for orcish rights? Okay:

You have the right to remain silent. Everything you have said or done can and will be held against you by the agents of law, who include roving bands of adventurers.

You have the right to speak to an attorney, but since you killed him and his family and burned down his village, it isn't going to do you any good, even if you can cast speak with dead.

You have the right to a swift, nearly-painless execution. If you refuse this right, you will be hacked down any old way.

You have the right to have your soul go to the Abyss, where you will be among beings even more powerful than you who will treat you the way you treated others in life.

Do you understand these rights, indicating that you are sapient being who deserves execution for his crimes? Or are you just an animal who is no more immoral to kill than a hog?


As Isis, Set, you do me one better.
As an aside, in my version of the monstrous manual or whatever I end up calling it, i have replaced "always" with "usually" when it comes to alignment, and the orcs are usually neutral evil. The duergar are what remains of the once noble rear -guard of the dwarves who went to the surface to fight in the Divine War. They are now a stunted, shunned, inbred and insane offshoot of the dwarven race that never took part in the Renaissance that occurred after that terrible struggle, keeping watch over crumbling castles and edifices miles beneath the earth who cannot wait to welcome back their brethren with sharp axes and cruel mauls.


see wrote:

Make a stand for orcish rights? Okay:

You have the right to remain silent. Everything you have said or done can and will be held against you by the agents of law, who include roving bands of adventurers.

You have the right to speak to an attorney, but since you killed him and his family and burned down his village, it isn't going to do you any good, even if you can cast speak with dead.

You have the right to a swift, nearly-painless execution. If you refuse this right, you will be hacked down any old way.

You have the right to have your soul go to the Abyss, where you will be among beings even more powerful than you who will treat you the way you treated others in life.

Do you understand these rights, indicating that you are sapient being who deserves execution for his crimes? Or are you just an animal who is no more immoral to kill than a hog?

I assume you never read the section of the Book of Exalted Deeds that spoke about mercy being a virtue? Please, do try to provide some other, more productive alternative to the situation than a summary execution. I'd be especially disgusted if I saw a worshipper of Sarenrae in this group of yours and be accepting of this decision.


Honesty I am good with them mostly being evil, even eberron had them mostly evil in truth.They are a race ruled by baser needs, could you civilize one? Sure , is it likely they would overcome their own nature to build a lasting less orc like civilization? No.

You could have a non-evil orc civilization but you would need to change orcs. Its no different then goblins, even the rare "good" goblin loves to sing and loves fire. Orcs at heart are ruled by desire and rage.

In your home games feel free to do as you like, but I for one like them as they are.


OK after having read all the posts up to this point all I can say is I don't get it.

The game is set up for the good races to kill the bad guys, always has been.
Orcs, drow, Undead, Dragons, Aberrations, etc,etc. Were all put in as representations of the forces of EVIL. plain and simple. Why include political correctness in a fantasy RPG?

If you think paladins are bad for genocide you really don't want to hear what my druids have done to those forest slaying tusk breathers. By the time I was done my animal companions belly was very full of soft tender orc flesh and I had buried an entire towns worth of bodies in the area they had just decimated to help the soil become enriched and the trees grow better.

Look at the deities that created the race for goodness sakes, their all gods of war, destruction and hate with a divine mandate for their followers to kill every other race on the planet. I'm referencing the Forgotten Realms as my source for this statement. Eberron is not so bad and you can play a noble orc or at the very least a very rich one but they are still less civilized than all the other races.

In short orcs = exp.


Maybe you don't get it because you might be assuming that your view on this isn't just an opinion, but also a fact (this I am merely judging from that last comment). Anyway, some people don't want to see the "it's okay to kill them because they are evil" thing because it just manages to create questionable and awkward situations. Sure, there are the type of meta-gaming rollplayers who just think of orcs as exp in existence, but it's just that, META-GAMING.

If I want to be role-playing an actual character, I would develop a character with a clear opinion on orcs. It would make sense for a guy from Lastwall to hate orcs with a passion, but there can always be a cleric of Sarenrae and they're all about redeeming villains if they can. What's the point of introducing that aspect of the goddess to the story IF NOBODY EVER GOES WITH IT? You do NOT have to link this issue to specific campaign settings like Eberron, nor do you have to make assumptions like that about the people who want to see some neutral orcs for once. In summary, I think you read through those posts without giving much thought to your response.


You can try to redeem anyone, some time it takes , some time it does not. Orc culture programs orcs to be brutish, violent and evil. As does there very nature. If you take a bunch of orc babies you can save some of them, but not all of them as they are born with instincts to be brutish and rage prone.

The race is just set up that way. The same thing a full grown orc born and raised in an orc village is hard wired and while you may save a few, so very few most you simply can not.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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First point...

The word "orcish" doesn't exist in Pathfinder. The adjective form of "orc" is merely "orc."

So, you'd have an orc longsword, an orc bloodline, or problems with orc racism... but never an orcish longsword, an orcish bloodline, or problems with orcish racism. This isn't anti-orc propaganda, of course, but a style we chose for almost ALL of our races. "Ish" never gets added to any race in Pathfinder.

As for the rest... I'm glad that my apparent orc racisim has eclipsed my very real dwarf racism.

HUMANS AND TENGUS AND HALFLINGS AND GNOMES AND ELVES 4EVER!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Icyshadow wrote:
I brought up the Nazis only as it felt appropriate given how I felt about the whole "always evil" thing and the implications it brings on about the player characters and their intentions. Anyway, I wonder if James Jacobs or any of the other members of Paizo staff is even noticing this thead.

We are.

And citing real-world organizations or non-gaming fiction as a way to justify alignment arguments is a bad idea, regardless of whatever real-world organization or non-gaming fiction you're citing.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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And to be clear...

I actually really like orcs a lot. AS BAD GUYS.

Half-orc is the way to go, in my opinion, if you want a good guy orc.


This...seems like a less reasonable post by you, James. Also, tengus are for the kind of people who like anime (even the name is Japanese), nobody ever plays gnomes anyway (joking) and we've all heard the common elf jokes by now (seriously). *Runs off with his homebrew races with a grin on his face*

Also, why aren't all half-orcs evil? They have the "evil orc taint" in them kinda like the tieflings have the blood of an actual fiend in them? What makes a neutral orc so heart-rendingly horrific as an idea? (Sheesh, I ended up asking this question a second time)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Icyshadow wrote:
This...seems like a less reasonable post by you, James. Also, tengus are for the kind of people who like anime (even the name is Japanese), nobody ever plays gnomes anyway (joking) and we've all heard the common elf jokes by now (seriously). *Runs off with his homebrew races with a grin on his face*

I'm somewhat incapable of making reasonable posts in threads with hideous style errors in the title is all.

Also... orcs eat poop.


James Jacobs wrote:

I'm somewhat incapable of making reasonable posts in threads with hideous style errors in the title is all.

Also... orcs eat poop.

...really? This is the kind of style you choose for a legitimate roleplay concern players like me and Mikaze have? Making fun of the thread title?


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Icyshadow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

I'm somewhat incapable of making reasonable posts in threads with hideous style errors in the title is all.

Also... orcs eat poop.

...really? This is the kind of style you choose for a legitimate roleplay concern players like me and Mikaze have? Making fun of the thread title?

It is an offtopic thread that the OP meant as a joke or it would not have been in OT


I think it went to a serious discussion half-way on the first page. And I still wouldn't treat this thing as a joke. Hell, my players even have that meta-game mentality of monsters being Exp fodder, but my Kingmaker campaign somehow had an improvised Orc raid at one part, and the leader was Chaotic Neutral. He was pretty close to being Evil, but my players didn't have a problem, actually ROLE-PLAYED THE ENCOUNTER, and everyone was happy with it. I still find if baffling that you just have to somehow justify killing legions of kobold/goblin/orc/whatever men, women and children with a mere "evil" label.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

I'm somewhat incapable of making reasonable posts in threads with hideous style errors in the title is all.

Also... orcs eat poop.

...really? This is the kind of style you choose for a legitimate roleplay concern players like me and Mikaze have? Making fun of the thread title?
It is an offtopic thread that the OP meant as a joke or it would not have been in OT

Yea. I like my orc cultures non-evil, but I made the thread and Grumash Boneboiler alias mostly because I felt like joking around a bit. It was never meant as a serious thread. That's why I spend the first part of the thread (before I went to sleep for the night) screwing around, not acting seriously.


Icyshadow wrote:
I think it went to a serious discussion half-way on the first page. And I still wouldn't treat this thing as a joke. Hell, my players even have that meta-game mentality of monsters being Exp fodder, but my Kingmaker campaign somehow had an improvised Orc raid at one part, and the leader was Chaotic Neutral. He was pretty close to being Evil, but my players didn't have a problem, actually ROLE-PLAYED THE ENCOUNTER, and everyone was happy with it. I still find if baffling that you just have to somehow justify killing legions of kobold/goblin/orc/whatever men, women and children with a mere "evil" label.

The lady speaks sense.


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James Jacobs wrote:
Also... orcs eat poop.

So do dinosaurs.


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No one in this thread advocated killing children or defenseless. However those are not the ones you encounter most often and yes even those often will try and kill you and if they catch you will happy torture you to death with childlike chants and joy.

Heck goblin children are more like rabid animals then thinking creatures.


James Jacobs wrote:

And to be clear...

I actually really like orcs a lot. AS BAD GUYS.

Half-orc is the way to go, in my opinion, if you want a good guy orc.

Half orcs are puny.


James Jacobs wrote:

The word "orcish" doesn't exist in Pathfinder. The adjective form of "orc" is merely "orc."

So, you'd have an orc longsword, an orc bloodline, or problems with orc racism... but never an orcish longsword, an orcish bloodline, or problems with orcish racism. This isn't anti-orc propaganda, of course, but a style we chose for almost ALL of our races. "Ish" never gets added to any race in Pathfinder.

BLASPHEMY!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Last night I promised I would get back with more coherent thought on the subject of options for orcs who aren't necessarily evil but still remain 'Orc'.

So here I am.

I'm going to use bits from Orcs of Golarion for this but I'm going to paraphrase for those of us (like me up until this last week) who don't have that particular volume.

Can we all agree that two elements quintessential to Orc character are Strength & Passion? Hopefully we can because otherwise my arguments fall apart before they even begin. Note, I am not saying the only quintessential elements of Orc character, merely two. I am also not arguing that only Orcs have those elements of their character.

Moving on, if Strength & Passion are quintessential elements of orc character than one real, solid, change in world view that moves them rather forcefully out of the 'always' & into the 'usually' or even 'only sometimes' evil camp, while at the same time guaranteeing that a lot of non-evil races/nations still wouldn't like having them around is this. Right now the 'as written' Orc philosophy on strength (don't laugh, yes they have one, they just don't know how to articulate it) is 'You(everyone else) are Weak!' Change that to 'I(Orcs) am Strong!'

I realize this may mean almost nothing to some people, but if you stop to think about it, it completely changes the dialogue.

'You are Weak' is how Asmodeus managed to convince House Thrune to convert (& then forcibly convert the rest of Cheliax) to his worship.
'I am Strong!' is why there still isn't a unified River Kingdoms.

I can give other examples, but I only get so much time on my soapbox & I really want to hear other's responses to my idea.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Icyshadow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

I'm somewhat incapable of making reasonable posts in threads with hideous style errors in the title is all.

Also... orcs eat poop.

...really? This is the kind of style you choose for a legitimate roleplay concern players like me and Mikaze have? Making fun of the thread title?

If this thread's serious... I obviously didn't read it well enough. The tone of the first post certainly doesn't set it up to be serious.

If you're looking for a more serious response from me, then that is this:

On Golarion, an orc's role is to serve as a monster. They're NOT intended to be good guys OR player character races—that role is filled by the half-orc. If orcs are meant to be PC races or good guys, we would have ditched the half-orc entirely and just presented the orc as a good guy. There are already PLENTY of other game options out there for orcs as not-always-evil bad guys, ranging from Shadowrun to Eberron to the Elder Scrolls to, most importantly, World of Warcraft. In fact, it seems to me that MOST settings present orcs more as misunderstood savages than as outright bad guys... which is their traditional role... which is how I prefer them to behave in Golarion.

So, I'm not racist against orcs at all. If anything, I'm advocating a return to the creature's roots as bad guys—same as I did with drow in Second Darkness.


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BARBARIAN HAVE THOUGHT. AM PAINFUL.

ORC AM EATING POOP. THIS MEAN ALL ORC BARBARIANS AM CRAPPY BARBARIANS?


James Jacobs wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

I'm somewhat incapable of making reasonable posts in threads with hideous style errors in the title is all.

Also... orcs eat poop.

...really? This is the kind of style you choose for a legitimate roleplay concern players like me and Mikaze have? Making fun of the thread title?

If this thread's serious... I obviously didn't read it well enough. The tone of the first post certainly doesn't set it up to be serious.

If you're looking for a more serious response from me, then that is this:

On Golarion, an orc's role is to serve as a monster. They're NOT intended to be good guys OR player character races—that role is filled by the half-orc. If orcs are meant to be PC races or good guys, we would have ditched the half-orc entirely and just presented the orc as a good guy. There are already PLENTY of other game options out there for orcs as not-always-evil bad guys, ranging from Shadowrun to Eberron to the Elder Scrolls to, most importantly, World of Warcraft. In fact, it seems to me that MOST settings present orcs more as misunderstood savages than as outright bad guys... which is their traditional role... which is how I prefer them to behave in Golarion.

So, I'm not racist against orcs at all. If anything, I'm advocating a return to the creature's roots as bad guys—same as I did with drow in Second Darkness.

...

GRUMASH SHALL BOIL YOUR BONES!


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
*Interesting views on the topic at hand*

So, basically using alternative perspectives to those ideals / elements of the Orcs? That sounds pretty clever, and doesn't skewer the view on the race either.

@James

Why do you keep mentioning good orcs? I mostly talked about NEUTRAL ORCS. Hell, Lizardfolk are treated as monsters by canon even though they are usually TRUE NEUTRAL and their reasons for attacking others are pretty darn well justified in most cases. That's even more disturbing implications than I would like to handle in a group with people who have as much immersion to the world of Golarion as I do when we actually get to playing the game.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Icyshadow wrote:
Why do you keep mentioning good orcs? I mostly talked about NEUTRAL ORCS. Hell, Lizardfolk are treated as monsters by canon even though they are usually TRUE NEUTRAL and their reasons for attacking others are pretty darn well justified in most cases. That's even more disturbing implications than I would like to handle in a group with people who have as much immersion to the world of Golarion as I do when we actually get to playing the game.

In my mind, good and neutral orcs are identical issues, since they're not evil orcs. You can take the word "good" when I talk about good orcs to also mean "neutral" in pretty much every case.

Lizardfolk, in my experience, are treated equally as good guys as much as they are bad guys. One of the biggest lizardfolk adventures from the early days, "Danger at Dunwater," presented them VERY well as a neutral tribe that the PCs were expected to ally with. And when we present lizard folk in our games... we tend to do the same—as neutral, they can go any direction. In fact... there's a nation of lizardfolk down in southern Garund who would work quite well as, if not good guys, allies against evil.

I can't say the same about orcs in Golarion, because they're intended to be evil. Comparing lizardfolk to orcs in this case isn't really helpful, since lizardfolk in Golarion are NOT intended to be evil. They can be, but they're just as likely to be good or neutral.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

There are already PLENTY of other game options out there for orcs as not-always-evil bad guys, ranging from Shadowrun to Eberron to the Elder Scrolls to, most importantly, World of Warcraft. In fact, it seems to me that MOST settings present orcs more as misunderstood savages than as outright bad guys... which is their traditional role... which is how I prefer them to behave in Golarion.

So, I'm not racist against orcs at all. If anything, I'm advocating a return to the creature's roots as bad guys—same as I did with drow in Second Darkness.

This is a valid argument, and one I have read you use before in similar threads. For me, the difficulty is that, right now, I don't play any of those games.

I may be alone in this, but for me, when it comes to fantasy role playing games, Pathfinder is it.

And sometimes I wanna get my green on without feeling I'm either a green Dritzt (and don't even get me started on that topic...)
Actually now that I think about it, not wanting to feel like my character is a green Dritzt pretty much sums up why I would like non-evil Orc cultures.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

This is a valid argument, and one I have read you use before in similar threads. For me, the difficulty is that, right now, I don't play any of those games.

I may be alone in this, but for me, when it comes to fantasy role playing games, Pathfinder is it.

And sometimes I wanna get my green on without feeling I'm either a green Dritzt (and don't even get me started on that topic...)
Actually now that I think about it, not wanting to feel like my character is a green Dritzt pretty much sums up why I would like non-evil Orc cultures.

It's worth noting that you say "Pathfinder is it," and not "Golarion is it."

My arguments about orcs has been 100% about orcs in Golarion.

For other worlds using the Pathifnder rules... ABSOLUTELY do whatever you want. That's the whole point of the game. In fact, changing an expected alignment about a creature for your own world is a GREAT way to individualize that creature for your world...

If you're not playing in Golarion, then my arguments and opinions on orcs are pretty much irrelevant. It's only if you're using Golarion, or looking to modify Golarion, or want to build a world LIKE Golarion that my arguments matter... and even then, I present them as nothing more than my philosophies so that folks can see why things are the way they are in Golarion, and so that they can make informed decisions about any changes they might want to make.

I'm in no way advocating the idea that there's only one way for something to be in an RPG.

Folks tend to forget that, though. And as a result threads like this pop up that... even if they're originally created in jest, often diverge into serious topics.

Also... if you are interested in neutral or even good orcs, or really compelling and interesting takes on non-evil orcs... perhaps you should check some of the games I mention above out. Even if you don't play them, chances are good that you'll find stuff in there that can inspire you in developing similar orc cultures for your home games, moreso than what we're doing with Pathifnder can, since what we're doing with orcs doesn't seem to match what some folks are looking for.


Shadowrun 4 life, chummer!!!

James Jacobs wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

I'm somewhat incapable of making reasonable posts in threads with hideous style errors in the title is all.

Also... orcs eat poop.

...really? This is the kind of style you choose for a legitimate roleplay concern players like me and Mikaze have? Making fun of the thread title?

If this thread's serious... I obviously didn't read it well enough. The tone of the first post certainly doesn't set it up to be serious.

If you're looking for a more serious response from me, then that is this:

On Golarion, an orc's role is to serve as a monster. They're NOT intended to be good guys OR player character races—that role is filled by the half-orc. If orcs are meant to be PC races or good guys, we would have ditched the half-orc entirely and just presented the orc as a good guy. There are already PLENTY of other game options out there for orcs as not-always-evil bad guys, ranging from Shadowrun to Eberron to the Elder Scrolls to, most importantly, World of Warcraft. In fact, it seems to me that MOST settings present orcs more as misunderstood savages than as outright bad guys... which is their traditional role... which is how I prefer them to behave in Golarion.

So, I'm not racist against orcs at all. If anything, I'm advocating a return to the creature's roots as bad guys—same as I did with drow in Second Darkness.


I just realized something that's on topic and kinda odd. Aasimar are a naturally Good race, right? Then how come Nualia was turned evil? Wouldn't that be as extremely insane an idea as an Orc who has turned good? As much as I like Nualia, I just realized she's more or less based on a double standard of sorts. Also, if I ever run a Rise of the Runelords campaign, I hope as a player to have a chance at redeeming her, and as a DM I WOULD give the players a chance at redeeming her (never said it's going to be easy, but I would let them have a fair chance and let them try) so yeah.

Scarab Sages

Icyshadow wrote:
I just realized something that's on topic and kinda odd. Aasimar are a naturally Good race, right? Then how come Nualia was turned evil? Wouldn't that be as extremely insane an idea as an Orc who has turned good? As much as I like Nualia, I just realized she's more or less based on a double standard of sorts. Also, if I ever run a Rise of the Runelords campaign, I hope as a player to have a chance at redeeming her, and as a DM I WOULD give the players a chance at redeeming her (never said it's going to be easy, but I would let them have a fair chance and let them try) so yeah.

Mr Jacobs said in another threat (answering one of your posts) that if there is need of a good Orc for an adventure, there will be a good Orc. So taking Nualia, a fully fleshed out villain that is special in part because of her being an Aasimar, a creature taken to be saintly and blessed by most, as an example of a double standart is simply wrong, unless you would imply that there absolutely and instantly have to be fleshed out characters for the opposite alignment of a cultures standard (one good ogre, one lawful good and one chaotic evil lizardman, one saintly tiefling, etc.) in important roles.

AKA Even James Jacobs (using 'even' because you seem to be bend on showing him of as the very example of an 'anti good/neutral Orc' supporter) never said there can absolutley no redeemed/food/nonevil Orc. He even (in that other thread) pointed ot that there are no alignment absolutes for mortal races and that there would be room for a published good Ork should one be needed/be a great part of an adventure.


James Jacobs wrote:
I'm glad that my apparent orc racisim has eclipsed my very real dwarf racism.

[Scottish accent]Damn you, Jacobs!!![/Scottish accent]

shakes fist

Scarab Sages

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Wash, rinse, repeat....

Home rule it, and get over it.


Icyshadow wrote:
I assume you never read the section of the Book of Exalted Deeds that spoke about mercy being a virtue?

After seeing the execrably low quality of the moral reasoning in the Book of Vile Darkness, I never bothered reading it counterpart. And since it isn't canon for Pathfinder, it is of no rules value.

If you wish to have an argument over the real-world value of mercy here, don't expect me to bother answering you. Long experience has shown me that sort of discussion is a waste of time.

Icyshadow wrote:
Please, do try to provide some other, more productive alternative to the situation than a summary execution.

The most productive use possible for an orc is fertilizer for the soil. Attempting to reform them wastes resources that could be used to help non-monsters.

Icyshadow wrote:
I'd be especially disgusted if I saw a worshipper of Sarenrae in this group of yours and be accepting of this decision.

Anyone who wants to reform orcs is welcome to try. Then I'll come along and execute the orcs that murder them for their trouble.

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