Whip, whirlwind attack, and improved trip


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

this has yet to come up, but some other threads got me thinking.

If you have a character who is proficient with a whip, has the feats whirlwind attack and improved trip, could you trip all opponents within 15 feet of you with no AoO as one attack?

You know, as I type this out, I realize that it sounds like a RD question.. :P I guess I have read too many of them..


Happler wrote:
If you have a character who is proficient with a whip, has the feats whirlwind attack and improved trip, could you trip all opponents within 15 feet of you with no AoO as one attack?

Whirlwind Attack: "When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach."

Trip: "You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."

Bold mine. Looks OK to me.

-edit- though, "as one attack" may not be correct. You make an attack roll against each guy you hit (or trip).

Happler wrote:
You know, as I type this out, I realize that it sounds like a RD question..

Harsh.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Happler wrote:

this has yet to come up, but some other threads got me thinking.

If you have a character who is proficient with a whip, has the feats whirlwind attack and improved trip, could you trip all opponents within 15 feet of you with no AoO as one attack?

You know, as I type this out, I realize that it sounds like a RD question.. :P I guess I have read too many of them..

PRD: Whip wrote:
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

Aside from that, I think you're set.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You do not threaten with a whip. I know not if that makes a difference, but the whip really sucks, though I wish it didn't.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

blackbloodtroll wrote:
You do not threaten with a whip. I know not if that makes a difference, but the whip really sucks, though I wish it didn't.

In this particular case, it doesn't appear to matter. WWA just says "within your reach". As far as I know, you don't have to threaten to reach.

Dark Archive

Jiggy wrote:
Happler wrote:

this has yet to come up, but some other threads got me thinking.

If you have a character who is proficient with a whip, has the feats whirlwind attack and improved trip, could you trip all opponents within 15 feet of you with no AoO as one attack?

You know, as I type this out, I realize that it sounds like a RD question.. :P I guess I have read too many of them..

PRD: Whip wrote:
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
Aside from that, I think you're set.

Hmm, does that mean that if you attempt a trip with a whip without the improved trip you provoke 2 AoO's?


Happler wrote:
Hmm, does that mean that if you attempt a trip with a whip without the improved trip you provoke 2 AoO's?

I think so. One for attacking with a whip, the other for making an untrained combat maneuver.

Sort of similar to casting a ranged touch spell while threatened, normally it provokes twice (once for casting, and once for making a ranged touch attack), but by casting defensively it only provokes once (for the RTA).

However, for the whip trip, you provoke once from everyone that threatens you (whip) and then once only from the target of the CM (trip).

Improved feat removes the latter, but not the former. (I think)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Grick wrote:
Happler wrote:
Hmm, does that mean that if you attempt a trip with a whip without the improved trip you provoke 2 AoO's?

I think so. One for attacking with a whip, the other for making an untrained combat maneuver.

Sort of similar to casting a ranged touch spell while threatened, normally it provokes twice (once for casting, and once for making a ranged touch attack), but by casting defensively it only provokes once (for the RTA).

However, for the whip trip, you provoke once from everyone that threatens you (whip) and then once only from the target of the CM (trip).

Improved feat removes the latter, but not the former. (I think)

Hm, I had interpreted the ranged touch spell thing to be that you cast and then shoot, and that was why you could provoke twice. Whereas with the whip trip, it's all one thing, and I didn't think you could provoke twice with a single event.

Unfortunately I don't have time to go digging at the moment, but I thought I'd toss that out there.

Dark Archive

The answer is no, can't change a whip to a melee attack, even with whip master line. It will at least take away the AOO issues.

Dark Archive

Thalin wrote:
The answer is no, can't change a whip to a melee attack, even with whip master line. It will at least take away the AOO issues.

I might have missed something, can you expand upon this?

The whip is a melee weapon doing a melee attack. You just provoke an AoO when you attack with it as if it was a ranged attack.

Quote:

Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.

If you have the improved trip, you will not provoke AoO's from the trips, but would you provoke AoO's just from the whirlwind attack itself?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thalin wrote:
can't change a whip to a melee attack

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Could you clarify?

The Exchange

could a character combine this with Truestrike? and maybe with Disarm rather than Trip? so then you would disarm all enemies within your reach right?
and if you were large? what would be your reach? 20' or 25' or 30'?

Dark Archive

Ah, maybe my PFS judge was wrong? I had it quoted differently; basically had the -4 penalty for combat applied to me as a "range weapon", so I guess that works :). Carry on.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Thalin wrote:
Ah, maybe my PFS judge was wrong? I had it quoted differently; basically had the -4 penalty for combat applied to me as a "range weapon", so I guess that works :). Carry on.

Do note that cover applies to reach weapons in the same way it applies to ranged weapons. The "shooting into melee" penalty does not, however.


nosig wrote:
could a character combine this with Truestrike?

Yes, though True Strike will only apply to the first attack roll. (You make an attack roll for each attack/trip/disarm during the whirlwind attack)

nosig wrote:
and maybe with Disarm rather than Trip? so then you would disarm all enemies within your reach right?

You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack, so yes.

If you successfully beat their CMD, then they drop an item. Remember, each one gets it's own attack roll.

nosig wrote:
and if you were large? what would be your reach? 20' or 25' or 30'?

Can of worms.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Grick wrote:
nosig wrote:
and maybe with Disarm rather than Trip? so then you would disarm all enemies within your reach right?

You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack, so yes.

If you successfully beat their CMD, then they drop an item. Remember, each one gets it's own attack roll.

Even better with Greater Disarm, sending each dropped item flying 15 feet in a random direction. That's a deliciously large chaos factor. >:D

The Exchange

Jiggy wrote:
Grick wrote:
nosig wrote:
and maybe with Disarm rather than Trip? so then you would disarm all enemies within your reach right?

You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack, so yes.

If you successfully beat their CMD, then they drop an item. Remember, each one gets it's own attack roll.

Even better with Greater Disarm, sending each dropped item flying 15 feet in a random direction. That's a deliciously large chaos factor. >:D

or with the 3.5 spell Servant Horde to send a bunch of Unseen Servants scrambleing to pick up the weapons and ... put them where the enemy can't get them (a deep well maybe).

Shadow Lodge

Happler wrote:
could you trip all opponents within 15 feet of you

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I'm pretty sure the whip was changed to NOT having reach. So you only threaten 5 feet, if you threaten at all. Don't have my book handy to check but it may not threaten since it deals nonlethal.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Nickademus42 wrote:
Happler wrote:
could you trip all opponents within 15 feet of you
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I'm pretty sure the whip was changed to NOT having reach. So you only threaten 5 feet, if you threaten at all. Don't have my book handy to check but it may not threaten since it deals nonlethal.

Incidentally, you don't NEED your book handy.

Core Rules, which are available free and official online in the PRD, wrote:

Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.


Nickademus42 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the whip was changed to NOT having reach.

You may be thinking of the Gladiator Weapon version of the Scorpion whip, which is not the same as the Scorpion Whip from .... Adventurer's Armory? I can't remember, and d20pfsrd compacted both of them into the same entry for some reason.

Anyway,

Whip: 15' reach, no threat, non-lethal, and can't hit armored guys.
Old Scorpion Whip: Just like a whip, but lethal damage, hits armor OK.
UC Scorpion Whip: James Jacobs: "if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do." (I have no idea what this means)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Grick wrote:
UC Scorpion Whip: James Jacobs: "if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do." (I have no idea what this means)

Well, given that the whip is listed as having the trip and disarm qualities and has some special feats related to it, he probably means that the scorpion whip does not suddenly gain all those abilities just because you're proficient with whips.

Dark Archive

Grick wrote:
Nickademus42 wrote:
I'm pretty sure the whip was changed to NOT having reach.

You may be thinking of the Gladiator Weapon version of the Scorpion whip, which is not the same as the Scorpion Whip from .... Adventurer's Armory? I can't remember, and d20pfsrd compacted both of them into the same entry for some reason.

Anyway,

Whip: 15' reach, no threat, non-lethal, and can't hit armored guys.
Old Scorpion Whip: Just like a whip, but lethal damage, hits armor OK.
UC Scorpion Whip: James Jacobs: "if you're proficient with a whip, you can use a scorpion whip. Doesn't mean you can use a scorpion whip to do all the things a whip can do, though... just what a scorpion whip can do." (I have no idea what this means)

Just to correct one thing, with the normal whip, you can hit armored guys, but you cannot damage armored guys. This is important for CMs like trip and disarm that do not require you to do damage, only hit.


Jiggy wrote:
Well, given that the whip is listed as having the trip and disarm qualities and has some special feats related to it, he probably means that the scorpion whip does not suddenly gain all those abilities just because you're proficient with whips.

Including reach? It's listed on Whip along with disarm, nonlethal, and trip.

According to UC, the Scorpion Whip is a Light martial weapon that deals 1d4 x2 slashing damage with the performance special. If you're not performing, it's worse than a dagger. It direly needs some clarification. (Or just add the performance special to the old Scorpion Whip) But this is getting way off topic.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Grick wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Well, given that the whip is listed as having the trip and disarm qualities and has some special feats related to it, he probably means that the scorpion whip does not suddenly gain all those abilities just because you're proficient with whips.

Including reach? It's listed on Whip along with disarm, nonlethal, and trip.

According to UC, the Scorpion Whip is a Light martial weapon that deals 1d4 x2 slashing damage with the performance special. If you're not performing, it's worse than a dagger. It direly needs some clarification. (Or just add the performance special to the old Scorpion Whip) But this is getting way off topic.

Yeah, well, everyone knows that in the Pathfinder world a dagger is serious business.

Sure, in movies, the dagger is mostly the desperate, wish-I-was-actually-threatening, last-resort weapon of someone who either doesn't want to fight or has been disarmed of a primary weapon. Or else it's used by an assassin or other non-combat type person to kill a defenseless innocent. But in Pathfinder, it's a valid combat choice, is the only weapon (that I'm aware of) that can get a universal damage bonus from a trait, can parry a greatclub in the hands of a duelist, can sunder full plate armor, and can make it easier to trip someone if it's of masterwork quality.

Sort of like how in movies a wizard will rely solely on magic for ranged combat, while in Pathfinder every wizard worth his salt is also a crossbowman. ;)

The Exchange

elven wizards are Bowmen - but yeah, I get your point Jiggy.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I suddenly have the urge to make a dagger-wielding sunder specialist...

The Exchange

Jiggy wrote:
I suddenly have the urge to make a dagger-wielding sunder specialist...

I'm sure it's already been done....

Liberty's Edge

Scorpion whips apply for both Agile enhancement and Piranha Strike -- so you could make a serious TWF carnage machine. (The feat tax is high because you need the Whip Master chain out of UC to make it viable, but the reach makes it better than anything else + Lunge.)

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
Incidentally, you don't NEED your book handy.

Bah. Too lazy to pull up the PRD. Don't like it anyway. It's all maroon and stuff.

I was thinking of the spiked chain when I posted. It's the weapon I'm used to seeing ranged trip builds using. Now it's no longer a reach weapon. Forgive me.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

ranged trip build? martial weapon from UC: hooked lance, exotic weapon: meteor hammer.

good for trip w/ reach. meteor hammer you can even change stance and then use the weapon without reach according to the latest printing in ultimate combat.

Dark Archive

Seraphimpunk wrote:

ranged trip build? martial weapon from UC: hooked lance, exotic weapon: meteor hammer.

good for trip w/ reach. meteor hammer you can even change stance and then use the weapon without reach according to the latest printing in ultimate combat.

Mostly it was for the fun of tripping or disarming every foe in a 15' radius.

With the changes to the trip CM, you can now trip with any weapon (so you could just trip with a longspear if you wanted to).

Sovereign Court

Mike Schneider wrote:
Scorpion whips apply for both Agile enhancement and Piranha Strike -- so you could make a serious TWF carnage machine. (The feat tax is high because you need the Whip Master chain out of UC to make it viable, but the reach makes it better than anything else + Lunge.)

Agile definitely, but are you sure about Piranha Strike?

The text of Piranha strike says any light weapon, NOT any weapon to which you can apply weapon finesse


The new and changed Scorpion Whip is a light weapon. Its the AA version thats a One-Handed.


This thread really made me want to make a Breaker Barbarian Broken Whip Whirlwind Sunder build.

(Not looking for a discussion on the legitimacy of sunder and whirlwind attack).

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Whip, whirlwind attack, and improved trip All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.