| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Haunted curse says that "any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction." So let's say I have a metamagic rod, and I put a strap on it, which I then attach to my belt. Wouldn't it simply fall to my side when I drop it, rather than land 10 feet away?
It really does not matter if its strapped or not, the spirits will jerk the item away, and possible you off your feet( Hello reflex save). I would not allow you to bypass a curse so easy.
Here's another question, does this curse affect material components and foci for spells?
|
OK here's one for you then.
Does drawing a bolt or arrow for a crossbow or bow get affected? How about bullets for a sling?
All of these are stored items retrieved from her gear. The latter example raises a possibly interesting question, though, whether she can draw more than one piece of ammunition at once.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Haunted curse says that "any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction." So let's say I have a metamagic rod, and I put a strap on it, which I then attach to my belt. Wouldn't it simply fall to my side when I drop it, rather than land 10 feet away?
There is no way to sidestep the curse. The mechanics must be dealt with no matter how things are arranged.
Does drawing a bolt or arrow for a crossbow or bow get affected? How about bullets for a sling?All of these are stored items retrieved from her gear.
Not really.
"Retrieve a stored item" is a Move action that provokes, the same as picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Haunted: "Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer."
So retrieving an item goes from move action to standard, but does not affect drawing ammunition.
Since it's malevolent spirits doing the pushing, I'd say that the strap would mysteriously come undone somehow and the item goes flying anyway. This is a deity-level curse, after all.
I'm afraid I don't see an oracle's curse as the nigh insurmountable obstacle some seem to think it is. It's a handicap; one which, like many disabilities, could be overcome by reasonable precautions/measures. I don't believe the haunting spirits should be able to untie or wrench bound objects free.
If objects tied/strapped to one's body suddenly untied themselves and flew away or dragged the haunted oracle 10-ft in a random direction each time they were let go, imagine the never-ending comedy the poor oracle's life would be as he tries to get dressed in the morning:
Wake up, pull on and cinch pants, release = being dragged 10-ft by flying pants into wall.
Bend down, pull on and tie shoe, release = fall down as shoe unties itself and goes flying.
Pull on shirt, release = torn shirt flies off of chest and out the window.
Strap on belt, release = being dragged down the stairs by flying belt.
By this logic, anything the oracle touches and then releases, whether it's tied, strapped or bolted down suddenly has the unstoppable ability to wrench itself free and move 10-ft. Granted, that might have its uses while adventuring. Want to open a locked door, gate or portcullis? No problem, simply grab ahold of it and then release while taking cover. Watch with glee as the offending barrier conveniently removes itself from your path. A simple touch attack from an oracle would send any opponent hurtling 10-ft away. Demolishing walls and uprooting trees would be equally easy.
It'd be a nightmare most of the time however; one which would leave the oracle sprawled and naked most of the time. Articles of clothing would be sent flying away whenever touched indadvertedly throughout the day. Packing a backpack or simply putting change in one's pocket would be nigh impossible tasks; each released item would simply tear free and fly 10-ft away. Every. Single. Time.
That wouldn't be a curse; it'd be a living hell.
If you take a move action to set an object down or restow it, you're fine; it's only if you're trying to use a free action to let something fall that it flies away. There's a difference between setting an object down on a surface and just letting it drop.
Since it's malevolent spirits doing the pushing, I'd say that the strap would mysteriously come undone somehow and the item goes flying anyway. This is a deity-level curse, after all.I'm afraid I don't see an oracle's curse as the nigh insurmountable obstacle some seem to think it is. It's a handicap; one which, like many disabilities, could be overcome by reasonable precautions/measures. I don't believe the haunting spirits should be able to untie or wrench bound objects free.
If objects tied/strapped to one's body suddenly untied themselves and flew away or dragged the haunted oracle 10-ft in a random direction each time they were let go, imagine the never-ending comedy the poor oracle's life would be as he tries to get dressed in the morning:
Wake up, pull on and cinch pants, release = being dragged 10-ft by flying pants into wall.
Bend down, pull on and tie shoe, release = fall down as shoe unties itself and goes flying.
Pull on shirt, release = torn shirt flies off of chest and out the window.
Strap on belt, release = being dragged down the stairs by flying belt.By this logic, anything the oracle touches and then releases, whether it's tied, strapped or bolted down suddenly has the unstoppable ability to wrench itself free and move 10-ft. Granted, that might have its uses while adventuring. Want to open a locked door, gate or portcullis? No problem, simply grab ahold of it and then release while taking cover. Watch with glee as the offending barrier conveniently removes itself from your path. A simple touch attack from an oracle would send any opponent hurtling 10-ft away. Demolishing walls and uprooting trees would be equally easy.
It'd be a nightmare most of the time however; one which would leave the oracle sprawled and naked most of the time. Articles of clothing would be sent flying away whenever touched indadvertedly throughout the day. Packing a backpack or simply putting change in one's pocket would be nigh impossible tasks; each released item would...
While this is extremely exaggerated, I actually agree that the metamagic rod example used by the original poster wouldn't fall under the items dropped clause of the curse. I think it stays in the leather strap. However, I do think that after it's dropped, it becomes a stored item, so when you go to look for it again, it's a full round action.
While this is extremely exaggerated,
To be clear, I agree; it is exaggerated. I was trying to point out the possible ramifications of a GM trying to play up this curse in an attempt to thwart reasonable precautions an oracle could take to keep dropped objects from flying away.
Thats hilarious. I now have visions of a monk with a level dip in oracle (OMG THE MAD) who builds to be a disarm expert and just sends weapons, shields, and anything really flying in every direction
Since it's malevolent spirits doing the pushing, I'd say that the strap would mysteriously come undone somehow and the item goes flying anyway. This is a deity-level curse, after all.
This.
The haunting entities untie your straps prior to flinging it when you're not looking. They're sneaky like that.
While this is extremely exaggerated,To be clear, I agree; it is exaggerated. I was trying to point out the possible ramifications of a GM trying to play up this curse in an attempt to thwart reasonable precautions an oracle could take to keep dropped objects from flying away.
The idea wasn't to play up the curse, it was that the curse is an important part of the class and that the intent of the rule was not that you could overcome the disadvantages of it with a few coppers worth of string. Obviously you're supposed to adjudicate it reasonably according to the intent of the class feature - this is why your clothes don't try to kill you when you undress AND why the string solution wouldn't work.
|
It really does not matter if its strapped or not, the spirits will jerk the item away, and possible you off your feet( Hello reflex save). I would not allow you to bypass a curse so easy.
Do boots of striding and springing fail to add +10 to the speed of an oracle with the lame curse in your games?
I am okay with the character spending money to get around parts of the curse (after all, it is still taking it's toll). The best part is that you now have ill-tempered spirits hanging around a character with rods hanging around his knees from straps. Since the book says this:
Malevolent spirits follow you wherever you go, causing minor mishaps and strange occurrences (such as unexpected breezes, small objects moving on their own, and faint noises).
I see a possible trip coming to this character as the spirit instead nudges the dropped rod to trip the oracle. Or the rod and strap combo gets caught up in some other piece of gear which makes it harder to get ready to use next time.
|
By this logic, anything the oracle touches and then releases, whether it's tied, strapped or bolted down suddenly has the unstoppable ability to wrench itself free and move 10-ft.
None of the examples given involve dropped items.
See, I agree with the notion that the curse is intended to remove the normal ability to drop an item as a free action (and get it back with a reasonable amount of effort.) Sort of like an archetype. It removes the 'dropped item falls at your feet' and gives an Oracle treat instead. Now, is the leather strap thing intended to restore the 'drop as free action' option? Because that's the crux of the matter for me. So long as the rod isn't ever dropped and recovered as it would be without the curse, I'd certainly permit the strap as a simple method of not losing a particularly valuable item.
Unfortunately, OP said,
Wouldn't it simply fall to my side when I drop it, rather than land 10 feet away?
If untying straps is too far removed from logic for folks like Ambrus, then perhaps debiting Oracle powers would be a better fit? Until the strap is untied, anyway...
Do boots of striding and springing fail to add +10 to the speed of an oracle with the lame curse in your games?
Let's not be facetious. You're not merely implying that the boots would fail to give +10. The equivalent comparison would be those boots giving +20 to the Oracle only. +10 for the item, and +10 for removing the curse. The Oracle with the leather strap hasn't used up a magic item slot to be brought just up to normal. They've paid nothing whatsoever for that privilege.
Now, if you're asking 'would sacrificing a magic item slot be an effective remedy for a curse', I'd certainly say 'yes'. But a non-game-mechanic leather strap simply isn't.
Weapon cord the rod. Problem solved.
The bigger issue is what happens when a oracle fills a bash if holding type 4 with alchemists fire, them turns it inside out, dropping everything inside as a result.
Whirlwind of death!
Weapon cord the rod. Problem solved.
If the rod functions as a weapon, sure. (Rod of Lordly Might, ok. Metamagic rod, nope.)
The bigger issue is what happens when a oracle fills a bash if holding type 4 with alchemists fire, them turns it inside out, dropping everything inside as a result.
The items are scattered around 10' in random directions.
If a bag of holding is turned inside out, all of its contents spill out, unharmed.
|
|
Let's not be facetious. You're not merely implying that the boots would fail to give +10. The equivalent comparison would be those boots giving +20 to the Oracle only. +10 for the item, and +10 for removing the curse. The Oracle with the leather strap hasn't used up a magic item slot to be brought just up to normal. They've paid nothing whatsoever for that privilege.
Now, if you're asking 'would sacrificing a magic item slot be an effective remedy for a curse', I'd certainly say 'yes'. But a non-game-mechanic leather strap simply isn't.
which is why I went on to suggest that while the cord will stop it from flying away, there are other things that the spirits can do to that combo, that are still within the game.
Weapon cord the rod. Problem solved.If the rod functions as a weapon, sure. (Rod of Lordly Might, ok. Metamagic rod, nope.)
The bigger issue is what happens when a oracle fills a bash if holding type 4 with alchemists fire, them turns it inside out, dropping everything inside as a result.The items are scattered around 10' in random directions.
If a bag of holding is turned inside out, all of its contents spill out, unharmed.
1) Any rod can function as a weapon if you take catch off guard. Logically, this means if you have the feat you can also weapon cord a table to your belt.
Which is awesome.
2) No containers in the bag, you're spring the fire in there in liquid form. It falls out, contacts air, and bursts into flame, causing... Something? And haunted throws the fire 10 feet in every direction thereafter.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
The bigger issue is what happens when a oracle fills a bash if holding type 4 with alchemists fire, them turns it inside out, dropping everything inside as a result.The items are scattered around 10' in random directions.
If a bag of holding is turned inside out, all of its contents spill out, unharmed.
A regular backpack, then. ;)
Or a backpack filled with as many caltrops as possible. Then whip out your reach weapon.
None of the examples given involve dropped items.
It becomes a matter of semantic interpretation of the phrase "Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction." Some contend that to "drop" refers only to those things the oracle releases as a free action and not those things which are set down using a move-equivalent action. If true than the curse is a matter of care and time; an oracle can thwart this facet of the curse if he's patient and careful. So would that apply to anything the oracle grasps and then lets go freely, including other creatures or overlarge objects like buildings?
Seeing where this is going, some might say no; that the curse only applies to inanimate objects and those things that the oracle can himself physically lift. If so, would that mean the curse itself is equally strong to the oracle and increases in strength as the oracle does, so that it's less of a problem for physically weak oracles? Another question would be, must the oracle actually lift objects off the ground for the curse to affect them or is grasping and releasing a properly weighted object sufficient? And what if that object is secured to a larger immovable object? If the curse can overcome restraints are there any limits to what it can manage. Can it beat ropes, straps, chains or nails? And can an oracle be said to "drop" something if it's securely fastened?
If restraints such as a strap or rope aren't sufficient to keep a dropped item from flying away then this minor quirk of the curse can be exploited by clever oracles; causing troublesome items to tear free and shoot away from them with a mere touch be it an enemy's weapon, armor or a padlock baring a door.
Now, if you're asking 'would sacrificing a magic item slot be an effective remedy for a curse', I'd certainly say 'yes'. But a non-game-mechanic leather strap simply isn't.
But even mundane items have game effects. I could use that same leather strap to bind your character so that he can't move. Should a disembodied "malevolent spirit" be able to tear apart a strap that an average PC couldn't?
If restraints such as a strap or rope aren't sufficient to keep a dropped item from flying away then this minor quirk of the curse can be exploited by clever oracles; causing troublesome items to tear free and shoot away from them with a mere touch be it an enemy's weapon, armor or a padlock baring a door.
The slope is not as slippery as you're making it out to be. Malevolent spirits which can move objects on their own are certainly capable of untying a knot or loosening a strap. Wresting a weapon from someone's grasp or snapping a padlock off a door is a completely different sort of action.
"Drop an item" is, in fact, a defined term in the PfRPG (see the Actions in Combat table). It is a way to remove something from your hand(s) by using a free action instead of a move action.
Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.
Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction.
Therefore, any item you release as a free action as an Oracle lands 10 feet away in a random direction.
I don't believe that one could drop something one has not first lifted off the ground, so the amount of weight that is subject to the curse is determined by the Strength table.
1) Any rod can function as a weapon if you take catch off guard. Logically, this means if you have the feat you can also weapon cord a table to your belt.
Catch Off-Guard doesn't turn anything into a weapon, or allow it to work with a weapon cord.
2) No containers in the bag, you're spring the fire in there in liquid form. It falls out, contacts air, and bursts into flame, causing... Something?
So the bag is susceptible to damage (sharp objects) why wouldn't it be susceptible to the liquid fire you just poured in there? The bag also has enough air in the extra-dimensional space for a living creature to breathe for 10 minutes. (Not that alchemist's fire is activated by oxygen anyway)
You can drop an item into an adjacent square as a free action, so I don't know why folks are trying so hard to cheese a super-combo out of the curse. Would the extra square even be worth the loss of choice of direction?
Do boots of striding and springing fail to add +10 to the speed of an oracle with the lame curse in your games?
That is a totally different argument and has nothing at all to do with this one. If he drops any object they grab it and throw it, if he is lucky the strap breaks, if not he is going with it.
You get to pick your curse, you choose this one so yes you must live with the issues it brings.
|
|
I am just amused how everyone focuses on only 2 aspects of the curse. you always hear about the following:
- Item dropped goes 10' in some random direction.
- Items take longer to retrieve from storage.
And they fail to talk about the fact that the spirits are also "causing minor mishaps and strange occurrences".
So, sure the cord stops the item from being flung away. It does not stop other things from happening. Getting entangled in your own equipment, tripping over it, having it swing out of your reach when you go to grab it, etc.. should all have a chance to come into play. Why should the spirits take the time to untie it, when they can annoy the oracle easier by making it swing in the wrong way at the wrong time?
Malevolent spirits which can move objects on their own are certainly capable of untying a knot or loosening a strap.
What if the strap can't be easily loosened? What if it's locked? What if it's a chain rather than mere leather strap? Limits have to be imposed on this curse and seeing as how this is only one aspect of the curse, I'd personally limit it to unfettered objects of relatively low weigh. No vaguely defined "spirit" should be able to break bonds, undo fastenings or move furniture; these are the types of actions which would require all other game creatures to have certain minimum ability scores, anatomy and successful die rolls to accomplish.
Oh they would not untie it, they would jerk it hard enough to knock you prone and drag you along with it.
|
|
Do boots of striding and springing fail to add +10 to the speed of an oracle with the lame curse in your games?That is a totally different argument and has nothing at all to do with this one. If he drops any object they grab it and throw it, if he is lucky the strap breaks, if not he is going with it.
You get to pick your curse, you choose this one so yes you must live with the issues it brings.
Okay, how about a haunted oracle with a Handy Haversack? does it take a move action to retrieve the item (as the magic item states) or does it take a standard action?
Haunted is already about the easiest curse to live with. Don't remove what little penalty it gives by the RAW.
Okay, how about a haunted oracle with a Handy Haversack? does it take a move action to retrieve the item (as the magic item states) or does it take a standard action?
Standard. The curse makes it harder, even if the bag can store more items then normal, the spirits still try to rip it from your grasp as you remove it.
You picked the curse, you must deal with the curse.
|
|
Okay, how about a haunted oracle with a Handy Haversack? does it take a move action to retrieve the item (as the magic item states) or does it take a standard action?
Do boots of striding and springing fail to add +10 to the speed of an oracle with the lame curse in your games?That is a totally different argument and has nothing at all to do with this one. If he drops any object they grab it and throw it, if he is lucky the strap breaks, if not he is going with it.
You get to pick your curse, you choose this one so yes you must live with the issues it brings.
Standard action that doesn't provoke?
The magic item can move the Oracle one step towards normal. That's totally okay in my book. It just shouldn't obviate it entirely. Otherwise, what's the point of having it in the first place?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That magic item allows you to carry more stuff. It does not allow you to sidestep a curse placed upon you by Fate and the gods.
Sorry no, you can't just sidestep the curse.
|
|
Okay, how about a haunted oracle with a Handy Haversack? does it take a move action to retrieve the item (as the magic item states) or does it take a standard action?
Standard. The curse makes it harder, even if the bag can store more items then normal, the spirits still try to rip it from your grasp as you remove it.
You picked the curse, you must deal with the curse.
Not disagreeing with the "you picked the curse" just with the limited way in which the curse is being applied.
There are 3 parts to this curse, of which only 2 have "solid" rules for dealing with, the third is left open to the GM to play with. Ignoring that 3rd, is making the curse too easy to deal with. Sure, it is a move action to get an item out of the handy haversack. Do you assume that it is the correct item all the time that is brought to the top?
There are 3 parts to this curse, of which only 2 have "solid" rules for dealing with, the third is left open to the GM to play with. Ignoring that 3rd, is making the curse too easy to deal with. Sure, it is a move action to get an item out of the handy haversack. Do you assume that it is the correct item all the time that is brought to the top?
Yep three parts and you must always deal with them all. They don't make magic items that bypass this curse. So no, its not a move action, its a standard action, that bypasses the normal action of the bag as the bag has no power to ignore a curse.
If you can show me where it states in the book the bag may bypass a curse I may change my mind, but you can't as it is a curse. If they did not cause issues it would not be called a curse now would it.
What if the strap can't be easily loosened? What if it's locked? What if it's a chain rather than mere leather strap? Limits have to be imposed on this curse and seeing as how this is only one aspect of the curse, I'd personally limit it to unfettered objects of relatively low weigh. No vaguely defined "spirit" should be able to break bonds, undo fastenings or move furniture; these are the types of actions which would require all other game creatures to have certain minimum ability scores, anatomy and successful die rolls to accomplish.
We aren't talking about a locked chain or a piece of heavy furniture, and moving an object 10' in a random direction is already an action which requires minimum ability scores and anatomy. This isn't some competitive tournament or computer simulation where every rule must be followed to the literal extremes. The spirit of the rule is that the Oracle has a significant disadvantage when it comes to dropping items; overcoming that with an item of negligible cost and no disadvantage is contrary to the spirit.
That said, I will mention that I'm okay with weapon cords in this respect (because they do have disadvantages).
|
|
There are 3 parts to this curse, of which only 2 have "solid" rules for dealing with, the third is left open to the GM to play with. Ignoring that 3rd, is making the curse too easy to deal with. Sure, it is a move action to get an item out of the handy haversack. Do you assume that it is the correct item all the time that is brought to the top?
Yep three parts and you must always deal with them all. They don't make magic items that bypass this curse. So no, its not a move action, its a standard action, that bypasses the normal action of the bag as the bag has no power to ignore a curse.
If you can show me where it states in the book the bag may bypass a curse I may change my mind, but you can't as it is a curse. If they did not cause issues it would not be called a curse now would it.
Just a difference on how we would run games then. In my view, lessening one aspect of the curse would just strengthen the other 2 (in one way or another), as long as the amount of annoyance from the curse as a whole is the same.
Again, Ambrus, you're completely free to houserule away the curse in its entirety.
Saying that the curse can't untie knots, break bonds or drag characters around isn't houseruling the curse; saying the opposite is the houserule since there's no mention of any such abilities in the curse's description.
Meanwhile, how do you account for the lack of balance?
We're talking about one minor drawback to the class, which can be alleviated by various means just as a halfling or gnome's slow speed drawback can be alleviated by mundane or magical means. As long as the player takes reasonable actions to deal with the weakness, then there's no balance issue. Honestly, the oracle class isn't balanced power-wise by these curses. How often does a character drop items, really? Its fluff intended to provide roleplaying opportunities. If one prefers to roleplay suffering through their disability then fine. If one instead prefers to roleplay a character who uses practical means to deal with their handicap then that's fine too.
Okay, how about a haunted oracle with a Handy Haversack? does it take a move action to retrieve the item (as the magic item states) or does it take a standard action?
The magic of the item supersedes normal limitations placed upon a character; the same way wings of flying allow a character to supersede gravity.
The bigger issue is what happens when a oracle fills a bag of holding type 4 with alchemists fire, them turns it inside out, dropping everything inside as a result.The items are scattered around 10' in random directions.
If a bag of holding is turned inside out, all of its contents spill out, unharmed.
Once a druid played by a munchkin player purchased a handy haversack and filled it with alchemical items, especially alchemist's fire. In a battle he had tossed the haversack to the cleric of Gorum, who was not content with retrieving flasks one at a time. He dumped the contents. The contents included 20 alchemist's fires and 22 flasks of oil.
The items landed unharmed in a pile. The GM rolled and two globe of alchemist's fire rolled off the top of the pile and broke open.
The party ran, except for one PC and one NPC who remained to battle the monster and block it from running. One round later, the GM declared that the resulting fuel-air explosion acted as a 42d6 fireball. It killed the NPC immediately, and the PC used her last action to grab the monster before the Molotov cocktails she was carrying exploded too, killing both. We gave her ashes a heroic funeral.
After we drummed the druid and cleric out of our party, we persuaded an experienced roleplayer to join us. She created a battle oracle with the haunted curse.
She is such a stickler for roleplaying that she stated that her oracle cannot use ranged weapons, because the spirits would divert her projectiles. Thus, the issue of whether the spirits interfere with drawing ammunition never came up.
I am the GM of that campaign now, and I put a Lesser Rod of Quicken into one stash of treasure for the oracle. She typically casts several low-level buff spells at the beginning of battle, while the wizard and sorcerer let fly with high-level spells instead. The oracle strapped the rod to her leg. Technically, that does not fulfill the requirement to have the rod in hand--I had not thought about that before. I will ask the player to strap it to her arm instead and claim it fills the arm slot.
As for the original question about dropping a rod attached with a strap, I would rule as the GM that the spirits would try to move the rod and fail. But their efforts would have a 25% chance of entangling the oracle in the strap as if they had pulled a successful Dirty Trick maneuver.
|
|
They don't make magic items that bypass this curse. So no, its not a move action, its a standard action, that bypasses the normal action of the bag as the bag has no power to ignore a curse.
So... you wouldn't let a Human Oracle with the Lame Curse (starting Base Speed 20 feet) take the Fleet Feet for +5 Feet added to Speed for a total of 25, and a few levels in Barbarian for an addition of 10 feet (which would let them take Rage Prophet if they were so inclined) putting the Lame Oracle's movement rate up to 35 feet (which is higher than most other humans). Simply because you believe that an Oracle has to live with their curse?
Sorry for necro'ing this, but the issue of the Haunted Curse has recently come up in one of my potential adventures.
I am pretty confident now that getting ammunition from a quiver or bullet sack does not count as retrieving a stored item as retrieving ammunition is a free action. I am also more or less confident that if you place an item down as a move action or slower that it does not count as dropping the item since the rules clearly define dropping an item as letting go of an item as a free action.
But what I am wondering is how does the Haunted Curse react in particular towards Ammunition fired from a Crossbow or a Sling or which is thrown like a spear or dagger?
