Do you mean ready-to-draw or simply carried?
If you mean the former, then an archer could likely carry one quiver on each hip and two more quivers across his back with a proper harness. Doesn't leave much room for backpacks or belt pouches though.
If you mean the latter, it's pretty much a measure of how many he can bundle together, fit into/onto a pack and comfortably carry on his back which is a measure of his strength. That'd likely be hundreds if he didn't bother with any other equipment. If he has a handy haversack or bag of holding however, it could easily be thousands.
As for the efficient quiver, I contend that there's no reason the other two compartments couldn't be crammed with additional arrows rather than the spears, javelins and bows mentioned in the item's description. If it has nothing besides arrows, I'd say that an efficient quiver could likely hold as many as 180 arrows.
As for the efficient quiver, I contend that there's no reason the other two compartments couldn't be crammed with additional arrows rather than the spears, javelins and bows mentioned in the item's description. If it has nothing besides arrows, I'd say that an efficient quiver could likely hold as many as 180 arrows.
I don't allow a standard efficient quiver to hold arrows in the other two compartments. However, if a player wanted to craft one that did, I don't see why they couldn't. Granted I think that would be called a handy haversack. (which looks like it could hold around 800 arrows...)
For an efficient quiver, I asked my DM if I could bundle arrows (I think we settled on about 10), and carry them in the secondary and tertiary compartments of the quiver. The assumption was that they wouldn't be accessable in combat, but that'd serve just fine as a method for carrying additional ammunition, and I would migrate them to the main compartment as I spent arrows from there.
Made sense to me that several arrows bundled together could have approximately the same 'profile' as a javelin.
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I allow an archer to carry two quivers maximum. Any additional arrows they require need to be stored in a pack
I allow an archer to carry two quivers maximum. Any additional arrows they require need to be stored in a pack
I agree with this, 2 quivers at the ready, and storage of arrows I limit like anything else, rational limits and carrying capacity.
Mmm, I don't really see an archer moving around in a battle with so many quivers on him and fire arrows with a dexterity of a gazelle...
I didn't say it would be elegant or even desirable only that, if looking to maximize the number of accessible arrows and willing to forgo other equipment (and grace), an archer could conceivably strap a quiver to each hip and one or two more to his back.
The description says "The second slightly longer compartment ... The third and longest portion of the case..." If before retrieving an arrow you have to search/reach for it, it' not very useful...
The description also says: "...the quiver can quickly produce any item she wishes that is within the quiver, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard." So no need to search for any of its contents; that's why it's called "efficient". ;)
If carrying a backpack, one hip quiver (right side if right handed to avoid getting "tangled" in the bow). If no backpack, one on the back and one on the hip.
Of course, the backpack can easily carry 3 or 4 more by strapping them onto the pack. However, the arrows will need to be contained (a lid) or bound together (string around the arrows) to avoid losing them. I'd say that it takes a Move action to get the stored arrows ready.
Just my 2 cp.
That last assumes that you're using the item as it's intended, including putting the items in the proper sections, not sticking arrows in the bow/staff space.
The item description doesn't say any such thing, nor does it say that items smaller than javelins or staves can't be placed in the second and third compartments.
Do you mean ready-to-draw or simply carried?
If you mean the former, then an archer could likely carry one quiver on each hip and two more quivers across his back with a proper harness.
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this sounds really awkward and cumbersome to me. Granted, I've never tried it, but I recommend anyone who thinks this is a viable option to pick up a couple of full quivers in real life and try running 100 meters with one strapped to each hip. I strongly suspect this would really slow one down and certainly would make one far less nimble than normal. I also suspect you'd be missing quite a few arrows by the time you stopped running. Even having *one* normal quiver on can feel really awkward. I see alot of miniatures/artwork where the archer has a quiver strapped across his back--and I love those minis and drawings--but I also wonder, what would happen if that character had to bend over to tie his shoes...or to inspect some tracks in the mud?
It also bears mentioning that most characters are going have a dominant hand--especially with a bow. Trying to access arrows from an unusual location is going to be awkward and slow--at best. Even assuming you're using a crossbow, transitioning to one's weakside is easier said than done and is something that requires a lot of practice to even be remotely competitive with one's dominant side. I've had training in this using a modern rifle with state of the art holographic red dot sights and even under those (far more favorable) circumstances I can tell you, this is no easy thing to do.
I think I'd allow one quiver, worn on the character's "weak side" or on his back (handwaving some of the difficulties I think he'd encounter in real life) and I'd allow--at most, perhaps 24 arrows in it. (Naturally, he can have more arrows in a backpack/bag of holding, etc., but accessing it is probably going to be at least a full round action. Of course, a prudent archer would refill his primary quiver with more arrows from his pack/etc. between combats and would try to maintain a full load whenever practical).
Just my opinion.
Wands don't say that they'll blast you in the face if you aim them backwards either. Should they have to?That last assumes that you're using the item as it's intended, including putting the items in the proper sections, not sticking arrows in the bow/staff space.The item description doesn't say any such thing, nor does it say that items smaller than javelins or staves can't be placed in the second and third compartments.
No where does it say a spell originates from the wand. You activate the wand of fireball in your right hand and send the ball of flame barreling out of your left.
You activate the wand of cure serious wounds and touch your target with your hand, not the wand.
Ergo, where you actually point the wand doesn't matter, and is little more than thematic flavor.
Many good points.
You're quite right that quivers, wherever they're strapped, tend to be awkward. And certainly, strapping additional ones to your body would be progressively more awkward.
But keep in mind that the game already allows for many abstractions or hand-waiving in regards to carried equipment for the sake of playability. Take retrieving an item stored in a backpack for example; I've never seen anyone in real life who could fish a specific item out of a closed backpack (and return the backpack to their back) in a mere six seconds; the length of a single round. Also, imagine a person attempting to perform a high DC acrobatic check with a typical character's carried equipment. Realistically, doing so would most likely result in that person lying in a heap (due to their having gotten tripped-up by their own cloak, scabbard and quiver) with arrows, broken potion bottles, a busted bow, unrolled sleeping bag and what have you strewn all around.
Just saying, we can't nitpick this stuff too much if we want to have some fun during our action scenes. ;)
Wands don't say that they'll blast you in the face if you aim them backwards either. Should they have to?
Actually, I don't believe the description for wands says that they have to be aimed at all to function normally.
Edit: ninja'ed by Ravingdork.
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What would be a realistic number of arrows an archer can have/carry/bring with him?
OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!!!
i'm sorry. i had to do it.
^ +1
As a GM I limit the archer to 2 viable combat ready quivers and a reasonable number of bundles of quivers depending on equipment (back packs, haversack, efficiency etc)
It takes essentially 2 moves and a standard action to retrieve, unbound and ready a new stack of arrows from storage during combat but its assumed that between combat readying a new double quiver of arrows is an instinctive activity that does not require specific mention.
thus in a longer battle the archer takes a bit of a hit for all of that ranged awesomeness.
however... as a player who almost always plays rangers. I always try to work out access to like 200 arrows at any given moment and only keep track if the DM expressly requires it
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There's an arcane spell in UC that replenishes ammunition to a container, so this will be a non issue for clever players soon. 1st or 2nd lvl too.
Thank youAnd let's be fair to the game system: Number of arrows normally needed to kill man: one. Number of crossbow bolts to kill Richard I (considered the best knight in England): one. Check out information on Howard Hill - killed an Elephant with just one arrow.
Devil's advocate time. It was a crossbow bolt during a siege if you're talking about King Richard the Lionheart. The real question then is how many bolts that came his way before that one which didn't kill him. How many rattled off his armor, came close whizzed by, etc. All those could be construed as "hits" which cut into his luck, etc. until it ran out. Then bingo. And, in any event I think gangrene did him in after the seige, not the bolt itself. As for the elephant, low roll on the hp and a critical hit by an expert archer :)
Killing a normal 5th level fighter in Pathfinder takes 10-12 arrows... A PC 'optimized' as a fighter will probably take twice that.Unless you are a stickler for encumbrance then, it is only fair to ignore the bulk of the arrows, and allow every archer to carry an "unrealistic" number of shots.
Richard wasn't your typical grunt. Neither is a 5th level optimized fighter. Your typical level 1 Warrior / Fighter might just go down in one shot (or not). Why should the archer get effectively unlimited arrows without taking extraordinary (magic) measures? If he has a bag of holding full of quivers he can take a moment to pull one out once in a while.
*edit* Btw, I agree with your numbers in the post above and your cautions about the fletching but, iirc, those two dozen arrows would last about 2 minutes steady fire based on the number of aimed arrows longbowmen were required to be able to lose to enter the King's service.
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Same reason he's allowed to fire more arrows in 6 seconds than anyone else can.
Heck I'll take that one further -- same reason someone with a black powdered rifle is allowed to shoot more shots in 6 seconds than what the most actual proficient shooters could manage in a minute.
Besides next you'll be telling us you can't carry 3 hand axes, a battle axe, two javelins, a short sword, three daggers, and a shield into combat.
Also how is the archer prepping the arrows? I would allow him a standing quiver that he can prop when he goes to fire that he can simply pull from then as a swift action grab on his way when he moves.
Also how many people are requiring the archer to string his bow each fight?
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There's an arcane spell in UC that replenishes ammunition to a container, so this will be a non issue for clever players soon. 1st or 2nd lvl too.
Abundant Ammunition
1st level, on most spell lists.IMO, because of some of the caveats on the spell, it is potentially broken.
Not to say that my Fighter 8, Cleric 1, Ranger 1 won't be switching all his non-Domain Cleric spells to it.
Main thing is that:
1) It makes the non-OGL Quiver of Plenty possible, and I think it winds up cheaper than the old Quiver of Plenty, and has no limitations on special material arrows.
2) Adding specific spells to said quiver moves into sick-making time.
Especially in non-PFS campaigns, where Permanent is a legal spell...
Abundant Ammunition
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 1, cleric 1,
ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a single piece of ammunition)
Target one container touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that
contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including
masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each
round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the
container the round before. The ammunition taken from the
container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell,
you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon
or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles
this spell conjures are affected by that spell.
Looks like it can be cast on an Efficient Quiver.
Hit the quiver with Bless Weapon, Align Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon, etc.; and it moves into seriously ugly territory...
And it doesn't say how it interacts with the various types of Weapon Blanching...
Same reason he's allowed to fire more arrows in 6 seconds than anyone else can.
Well, we can skip any "realistic" limits on the game then! Let's let people wield more than 2 weapons and who needs two hands to use a bow? *sigh* You keep some stuff to preserve versimilitude / immersion so people can swallow the fantastic stuff. You know that. Keep the mundane real world junk to "ground the" in the game.
Heck I'll take that one further -- same reason someone with a black powdered rifle is allowed to shoot more shots in 6 seconds than what the most actual proficient shooters could manage in a minute.
I don't have gunpowder in my game :) I spent years (starting in 1974 -- it took quite a while) eradicating modern science / physics from my game and convincing players they couldn't "invent" guns, internal combustion engines, airplanes etc.
Besides next you'll be telling us you can't carry 3 hand axes, a battle axe, two javelins, a short sword, three daggers, and a shield into combat.
You might lug that pile around, but good luck using it at the same time. Or did we do away with those pesky real life limits? :D
Also how is the archer prepping the arrows? I would allow him a standing quiver that he can prop when he goes to fire that he can simply pull from then as a swift action grab on his way when he moves.
Longbowmen used to line them up point down in the ground in front of them to make it easier.
Also how many people are requiring the archer to string his bow each fight?
*smiles sheepishly* *raises hand*
I worry about their bowstrings getting wet too. Reduces the effectiveness of the bow...
How many arrows can they carry?
I reckon its the same answer as...
The same number of bits in the Wizards spell component pouch, or the number of strikes the fighters sword can deliver before it is bent/broken through viloent strikes.
How many arrows can they carry?
I reckon its the same answer as...
The same number of bits in the Wizards spell component pouch, or the number of strikes the fighters sword can deliver before it is bent/broken through viloent strikes.
Yes.
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I have always strongly disliked gameplay where tracking mundane items like this mattered, unless it was a critical "lost at sea" or "trapped underground" type adventure where use of resources was a key game component. Or if you had a player who really wanted that level of detail (I once had a player who wanted me to detail all the types of coins he stole, he was really into it)
Bottom line: and archer has enough arrows to shoot at any given time. I presume he or she replenishes them when necessary or retrieves them during battle in some way. Unless the arrows are magic or special, then we track them.
I dont want to track arrows or ammo or torches or other things like that.
That's not why I play D&D (or Pathfinder). We've got plenty of other stuff to track.
Agree with the above.
If there is a specific reason that tracking micro-detail might be relevant then thats fair enough.
Otherwise we are simply applying a constraint to one type of player 'for realism' and then not applying that level of scrutiny to his fellows, which is another way of saying 'nerf'.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Bottom line: and archer has enough arrows to shoot at any given time. I presume he or she replenishes them when necessary or retrieves them during battle in some way. Unless the arrows are magic or special, then we track them.
Actually, I think the items you have to track are the only reason this is an issue at all. Some player want 10 adamantine arrows, 20 silver, 20 cold iron, 20 flaming, 20 +1 dragon bane...
Generally I agree though, as long as the player keeps track of how many of which special arrow he's fired that's good enough for me. Particularly if they spent the money on a magic quiver.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I generally limit my players to three quivers of 20. One on each shoulder and another on the non-dominant side hip. In essence, though, we don't really track them very carefully. At the end of combat we'll say "How many do you think you shot? 12? Okay."
60 arrows should be more than ample until you get up into the higher levels, at which point efficient quivers should be the order of the day.
As many as they want, this is a game about heroic fantasy, not feces-covered peasants crying as they try to shoot bows at other feces-covered peasants.
Seriously when in the hell would this ever come up in a way that doesn't end with you just handwaving it?
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I have always strongly disliked gameplay where tracking mundane items like this mattered, unless it was a critical "lost at sea" or "trapped underground" type adventure where use of resources was a key game component. Or if you had a player who really wanted that level of detail (I once had a player who wanted me to detail all the types of coins he stole, he was really into it)
Bottom line: and archer has enough arrows to shoot at any given time. I presume he or she replenishes them when necessary or retrieves them during battle in some way. Unless the arrows are magic or special, then we track them.
I dont want to track arrows or ammo or torches or other things like that.
That's not why I play D&D (or Pathfinder). We've got plenty of other stuff to track.
Completely and wholeheartedly agreed....
Also how many people are requiring the archer to string his bow each fight?
*smiles sheepishly* *raises hand*
I worry about their bowstrings getting wet too. Reduces the effectiveness of the bow...
Very well R_Chance you are exempt and may go about your business (I knew a nutter like you would show up but hey welcome back).
As to the weapons kit I mentioned above? Yeah many armies/warriors lugged that around and fought in it on purpose (Romans, Norse, Egyptians among others)
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Same reason he's allowed to fire more arrows in 6 seconds than anyone else can.Well, we can skip any "realistic" limits on the game then!
Lajos Kassai can fire a dozen arrows in under eighteen seconds while mounted.
Lajos Kassai can fire a dozen arrows in under eighteen seconds while mounted.Same reason he's allowed to fire more arrows in 6 seconds than anyone else can.Well, we can skip any "realistic" limits on the game then!
Which is still the same as a fighter with rapid shot can do at level 6 in the same 18 seconds -- never mind if he has multishot. We have a top end where the level 20 fighter unleashing an arrow a second, or more if not more with haste.
Something I noticed, the guy held 12 arrows in his bow hand while doing that.
Yah Yah, all this crazyness about bows and arrows.
Nobody sees what a halfling with a halfling slingstaff, the warslinger trait and a simple pathfinder pouch at his belt can do.
Yah Yah, all this crazyness about bows and arrows.
Nobody sees what a halfling with a halfling slingstaff, the warslinger trait and a simple pathfinder pouch at his belt can do.
What CAN they do?
What CAN they do?Yah Yah, all this crazyness about bows and arrows.
Nobody sees what a halfling with a halfling slingstaff, the warslinger trait and a simple pathfinder pouch at his belt can do.
I believe the answer is, "your face, hard." and it is correct.
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For me, this falls under the category of "minute details that unnecessarily slow the game down", like spell components. Therefore, we tend to ignore stuff like this and focus on other things... like having fun.
Generally all my ranged characters have 20 normal arrows/bolts, 20 silver, and 20 cold iron just in case. Nobody ever seems to care and I replenish them after each quest if I use them.
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Lajos Kassai can fire a dozen arrows in under eighteen seconds while mounted.Same reason he's allowed to fire more arrows in 6 seconds than anyone else can.Well, we can skip any "realistic" limits on the game then!Which is still the same as a fighter with rapid shot can do at level 6 in the same 18 seconds -- never mind if he has multishot. We have a top end where the level 20 fighter unleashing an arrow a second, or more if not more with haste.
Something I noticed, the guy held 12 arrows in his bow hand while doing that.
Lajos is a fifty year-old who has four Guinness records for doing this....and arguably he has those records because he's about the only guy doing it. Take a hundred Hun raiders from centuries past, men born to the bow and saddle and living or dying as a direct consequence, and probably most of them would have shot equal or better.
In Pathfinder build terms, they'd be Zen Archer/Dragoon multiclass.
"In essence, there are two kinds of people. People of the question and people of the answer. The man of the question is ever searching, wishing to experience and know things. The man of the answer says that his religion furnishes all the answers and he retires into the rituals of his faith. My life seems to be a composite of the two. I have always wanted to try everything and always held that it is the stupid who wish to learn by the mistakes of others, as nothing is more important than personal experience. Knowledge is our only treasure that cannot be taken from us, while it is also the most aristocratic thing in the world. Now that I have reached the zenith of my life, I have reached a sunny clearing and left behind the tormenting jungle of questions and desires. Acceptance dominates the desire to change. Horseback archery, which had once allowed me to fly on a magic steed through space and time, has become a ritual for me that furnishes the framework for my everyday life. For me, it represents science, art and religion all in one. I have tried to learn as much as possible about that activity using reason, then tried to present it in an artistic manner to the best of my abilities, and by the time I got that far, I noticed it had become my faith."
-- Kassai Lajos, Horseback Archeryp
Yeah again nothing that a level 6 fighter couldn't do -- which is fine because like you said the skill isn't anything special. While he might be the one doing it now, that doesn't mean no one else can do it. Bully all for his ability to do so, but at the same time all you've proven is that it is possible to fire 12 arrows in 18 seconds.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I believe the answer is, "your face, hard." and it is correct.What CAN they do?Yah Yah, all this crazyness about bows and arrows.
Nobody sees what a halfling with a halfling slingstaff, the warslinger trait and a simple pathfinder pouch at his belt can do.
I was kind of hoping for a more detailed explanation. :P
I don't even know what a pathfinder pouch is, much less what it does.
EDIT: Did some research. Still don't know what that pouch is about, but Warslinger doesn't work with halfling sling staffs, only slings. Trying to apply it to halfling sling staffs would be like having a player trying to apply weapon focus (shortbow) to his longbow. Just because the word "bow" (or "sling" in this case) appears in its name doesn't make it a valid combination.
I believe the answer is, "your face, hard." and it is correct.What CAN they do?Yah Yah, all this crazyness about bows and arrows.
Nobody sees what a halfling with a halfling slingstaff, the warslinger trait and a simple pathfinder pouch at his belt can do.I was kind of hoping for a more detailed explanation. :P
I don't even know what a pathfinder pouch is, much less what it does.
Basically he can do almost everything the archer can do, but doesn't have to worry about strength penalties (or bow strength ratings), and can use a light shield thereby giving him an off hand weapon to attack with too.
(I wouldn't bother with the staff sling myself)
Very well R_Chance you are exempt and may go about your business (I knew a nutter like you would show up but hey welcome back).As to the weapons kit I mentioned above? Yeah many armies/warriors lugged that around and fought in it on purpose (Romans, Norse, Egyptians among others)
Well. thanks. I have your permission. Looking at your avatar I have to smile at being called a "nutter" :)
I'm fully aware of the load outs of various ancient and medieval warriors. So are my players. Most of them are history buffs / SCA members and play historical miniatures. I've weaned myself off the reenactment, mostly off the miniatures. I still read history for relaxation and teach it. Well, I do play miniatures occasionally. My players like to keep track of things. Rations, arrows, etc. They like the minutia of camp life too. They carry whetstones, rope, spikes, pitch tents, set cook fires, arrange the watch, etc. Keeping track of arrows is simple. The players do it. When they go to recover arrows I let them know how many can be recovered / reused. Depends on the targets, the environment and a bit of luck. Not hard. As for running out, they don't. They go prepared.
Having said that, I keep track of other things too. Or my players do. Spells, for example. Keeping track of spells, munitions, rations, gear, all easy.
It doesn't bother me if others don't. Every group has it's own preferences and to each their own. It doesn't bother me, or impress me, that others do or don't. It's just how people play their games. When I respond to posts, I'm putting in my two cents, not telling people how to run their games. That's their call.
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Yeah again nothing that a level 6 fighter couldn't do -- which is fine because like you said the skill isn't anything special. While he might be the one doing it now, that doesn't mean no one else can do it. Bully all for his ability to do so, but at the same time all you've proven is that it is possible to fire 12 arrows in 18 seconds.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Why are you arguing with me? -- I'm supporting your position.
Nobody sees what a halfling with a halfling slingstaff, the warslinger trait and a simple pathfinder pouch at his belt can do.
Cry until he splurges feat slots for Ammo Drop and Juggle Load merely in order to catch up to the rate-of-fire for a bow, and then he's still firing projectiles that are d3 rather than d6 (oh, but Halflings of Golaron has even more feats and traits to fix that, just in case you were eagerly looking forward to devoting every last steenkin' one of them to making an otherwise grotesquely suboptimal weapon pass muster in a one-trick-pony munchkin-trapped character -- so feel free to exchange more and more of your rogue levels for fighter levels to do that, and watch you sneak-attack dice-count nose-dive!
And then there's the annoying 50' range increment, which will have you slowing down the game to count off half the time (when a bow archer simply doesn't need to in 99% of encounters).
(But gosh, think of the savings on bullets and slings versus bows and arrows; why, you might save upwards of a few thousand gold by 20th level fighting with one of the rottenest weapons in the game!)
With the same stats, calculate what level a halfling slinger would have to be in order to acquire the feats to match the same rate-of-fire and attack/damage as a 6th-level Zen Archer or ranger with a composite longbow, and whose only archery feat not acquired for free with class levels is Deadly Aim (if he wants it). You need four traits and feats from HoG just to match them, which means that if you are one of them, you have exactly one of your two traits unallocated over your entire build to 6th...and you won't have Deadly Aim or Improved Precise Shot.