Countering Withdraw Spam


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

In my CoT PbP game I've run into an interesting challenge.

We're fighting some sort of rogue teifling in narrow dungeon corridors and she seems to have no interest in fighting us. I'm sure she's leading us into some sort of horrible trap but at this point I'm a tad frustrated and want to catch her out of principle.

Onto my actual question:

Assuming two characters without reach, that are the same speed, in terrain that does not allow charging, without decent ranged attacks/options...

Is there anything that a pursuing character can do to catch/hurt a constantly withdrawing foe?


Go back to town and get some tanglefoot bags

Liberty's Edge

Feral wrote:

In my CoT PbP game I've run into an interesting challenge.

We're fighting some sort of rogue teifling in narrow dungeon corridors and she seems to have no interest in fighting us. I'm sure she's leading us into some sort of horrible trap but at this point I'm a tad frustrated and want to catch her out of principle.

Onto my actual question:

Assuming two characters without reach, that are the same speed, in terrain that does not allow charging, without decent ranged attacks/options...

Is there anything that a pursuing character can do to catch/hurt a constantly withdrawing foe?

Expeditious Retreat or Haste. I'm sure there are others, but those come to mind first.

Liberty's Edge

I'm not really looking for spells or special weapons or items.

I am curious if there are any readily available combat tactics or maneuvers I'm not thinking of.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Throw a melee weapon at her and call it an improvised throwing weapon?

Intimidate her?

Depending on the nature of the hindered/unchargable terrian, ask to roll Acrobatics or Survival or whatever's relevant to try and negate that penalty? (GMs are more likely to agree to this if you also propose a penalty you'll face for failing the check.)

Can't you run in hindered terrain even if you can't pull off a "charge attack"? This makes you flat footed and other badness, but hey, cutting her off sounds like a good idea.

Ask the GM to use the Chase rules instead of the TacMat rules, since that seems a more appropriate way to adjucate this particular situation?


Feral wrote:

I'm not really looking for spells or special weapons or items.

I am curious if there are any readily available combat tactics or maneuvers I'm not thinking of.

Readied trip action. However it won't help you if opponent already withdrew and now you have to use your full-round action just to reach her and can't spare standard action after becoming adjacent. And can hurt a lot if you can't trip without provoking attacks of opportunity.


No Escape rage power. If they're next to you and withdraw you literally follow them on their turn.

Proceed to full attack. Best served cold, garnish with parsley.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Grapple, trip, dirty trick are the main ones. If she's leading you somewhere, don't go charging after her. Take your time, she'll be waiting for you no matter what you do. Might as well not walk right into her death trap.

Running around with no reach melee isn't a good idea to begin with. Always carry tanglefoot bags, ranged weapons etc.


Go out and buy plot twist cards and demand that your dm uses them


You must be talking about a situation where you take a double move each round (no charge) to get into melee range, but are unable to attack. Then he takes a double move away from you, right?

First, he can never hurt you by doing that, so just let him go. Stay where you are, or back up to the nearest convenient place, and set an ambush for him. Basically, don't take the bait.

Second, you have an entire party with no spells, reach weapons, bonus movement, or ranged attacks? Really? That surprises me. What's the party make up? (classes, levels, etc.)

Liberty's Edge

Intimidate doesn't do anything to stop her from running.

You can run in hindered terrain but you have to run in a straight line.

Yeah, readying an attack won't work since the enemy is already outside of range.

That rage power would work perfectly, but that's in the same vein as spells. I'm looking for more general strategy options.

None of those combat maneuvers are going to work. I thought overrun might work but it's a standard action during a move action so not an option when an double move is needed to catch up.

Plot cards might work but I don't know what those are.

Yup, Blueluck you described the scenario. Keeping a reach weapon on hand is something I'll consider in the future but that doesn't help right now.

It appears that if an enemy doesn't want to fight you, they can simply leave.

Silver Crusade

Keep following them. If you expect they're luring you into a trap, you either let them go, or get lured into the trap. In a dungeon, its very easy to get away from your opponent, especially if you know the dungeon and they don't. They'll either run into a dead end, go into the underdark or some other place, or get into the open where you can really start chasing them. Of course, the rouge has a pretty good chance to outrun you there, too.

Since you weren't prepared to stop such a fleeing character, you'll probably have to consider letting them go your best option.

Liberty's Edge

Well the fact that it's a rogue is largely immaterial. She isn't using acrobatics to avoid AOs or anything. She's just withdrawing every turn. This could just as easily be a fighter, ranger, cleric, or bard.


Have you tried burning hands vs. the rogue Tiefling? That's sure to be effective.

:p

Liberty's Edge

Too soon Appario... too soon...


use stealth to sneak up on them?
use bluff to make them think you`re doing something different than you really are? (possibly in combo with stealth?)

worst case, ignore them. they aren`t attacking you. you think they`re luring you to a trap. fine.
but what would you do without this NPC leading you along?
right, probably continue thru the dungeon just like you are doing.
so all the NPC is probably doing is making themself feel important.

Liberty's Edge

How high of level are the creatures you have been fighting?

4HD - someone in your party must have Daze.


Blueluck wrote:
. . .you have an entire party with no spells, reach weapons, bonus movement, or ranged attacks? Really? That surprises me. What's the party make up? (classes, levels, etc.)

I ask again. What do you have to work with? How many PCs? What classes? What level?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Feral wrote:
Intimidate doesn't do anything to stop her from running.

Sure it does. Intimidate makes people Friendly. Ask the friend to stop, or you'll kill her mommy

Feral wrote:
I'm looking for more general strategy options.

Throw your melee weapon at her. It's the only option you seem to have on the table.

Feral wrote:
It appears that if an enemy doesn't want to fight you, they can simply leave.

Rather, I'd say "It appears that if an enemy doesn't want to fight you, and you don't have any tools to stop them, they can simply leave." *shrug*

Lots and lots of things in the game are like that: "It appears that if your character dies, and you don't have a caster in the party or someone to pony up money to pay one, then your character stays dead."

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

If it is a straight corridor you should be able to charge or use the RUN action to get around her. If it's a windy corridor you might be out of luck.

Next time you get to town start planning around the idea of ranged weapons, tanglefoot bags, whips... your character sounds a bit one-dimensional (melee attack only).


Well... Even if you have no real ranged weapons... Throw stuff at her?

Spoiler:
At the beginning of your turn, you are two move actions away from melee distance, right?

You use one move action to get closer, one standard action for a ranged attack (throwing whatever you have).

Maybe you hit and do some damage, (and if your gm applies common sense, you might trip her or at least slow her down), maybe you miss, but you got nothing to lose, since on the rogue's turn, she could spend one move action to retrieve your weapon (or pluck it out of her chest), but then she has only one action left to move so your friends can get her, so she probably won't be that kind. Say she takes her standard double move. She's now two moves away from your friends and three moves away from you.

Next turn, one move action to get where she was, one move action to retrieve your weapon.
She takes her double move, is now four moves away from you.

Next turn, you take a full round action and run. (Four moves).
She takes two moves, so the distance is now back to two moves, again.

Or just run ahead of her, eat the AoO you draw from her (or use acrobatics to evade that) and block her way.


Option one: use something so that you restrict her speed
Option two: use something that restricts her from having full-round action
Option three: shoot her??
Option four: RUN past her, and prepare for grapple?

When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.


Use the supplied Evasion and Pursuit/chase mechanics. In the short term is a Dex based Check-off, in which case they might win, but longer term its Con based Check-off. If they're a rogue and you're anything other than a caster or another rogue then there's a fair chance you have better Constitution score, and can out run them over time, Endurance feat might help here, not sure.

Can you attempt a trip attack with a thrown improvised weapon?
Throwing, say, a long sword could surely cause someone to get a little off balance...

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Got a rope? Lasso time.


Are they actually trying to do something to you, or just trying to get away and you are trying to catch them?

Does this place have an endless amount of room for them to get away? Unless this is an open area, you should be able to corner them.

If it really is just a chase, ask the DM to quickly improv a Chase scene, use the Game Master Guide's rules.


The actual scenario referred to ended pretty quickly; the corridors mentioned were only about 100 ft long, and after that the runner (who was fleeing for her life) was quickly overtaken by the OP (who did have above-average speed).

The question presented is more of a "what-if" type scenario :)

Liberty's Edge

This came up again. =(

Still looking for good solutions.

Silver Crusade

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In the future you character might want to keep a bola or two handy.


Feral wrote:

This came up again. =(

Still looking for good solutions.

If you ever get in base to base contact and have an action, ready an action to trip or grapple as soon as she tries to move.

Cast a web spell behind her in the direction of her retreat.

Cast a grease spell under her.

Throw down caltrops in her path of retreat.

Use a rope and create a lasso and attempt to entangle it. You'll be at a hefty minus I belioeve since Lasso is an exotic weapon.

Throw flasks of oil in her path of retreat to attempt to make it unfavorable/rough terrain and slow her movement.

Buy a ranged weapon and shoot her.

Remember only the very first square they leave on a Withdraw is not considered threatened.

We could give you more advice if you gave us more information on the resources your party has, your levels and classes in the group.

PS: How is it you cannot charge to her but the terrain is good enough for her to use a double move Withdraw?


Feral wrote:

This came up again. =(

Still looking for good solutions.

The Chase/Pursuit rules weren't a good enough solution?

That's really the only thing that fits your criteria since you said spells and items were out.


I've seen this come up in a few different games so the scenario varies.

A lot of the suggestions assume that the characters in question know that their target is going to try running away. In most situations, that's not the case. You don't know that the goblin/evil cleric/assassin is going to withdraw over and over again when the encounter starts.

For sake of the example, assume it's a series of 20 foot corridors that turn at right angles.

Dark Archive

You can overrun as part of a charge. Get one person in front of her and one behind her and she's going to have trouble withdrawing without penalty.


Get some party members to use the "run" action and form a wall in front of the guy, then keep the chaser doing double moves to force him to use the "withdraw" action instead of "run"


We really need a full run down of what your character has access to i.e. what gear and what items in the area around him/her.


Spells and ranged options are good things to have. Come prepared.

If you're nothing but dumb melee brutes that shirked on buying even slings (seriously?), then try to use readied actions and the combat maneuver rules, probably bull rush, though grapple to move the grapple might work, too, to forced move a PC up closer to her and then he can use his turn to close and trip/grapple her.


pick up (move) throw rock (std, str based improv weapon)?

Liberty's Edge

I'm curious, how is it that the withraw action can be used, but the charge action cannot?

Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed.

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.

The movement allowances for each action are very similar. I would think that whatever obstacles or conditions that hinder the charge would also hinder the withdraw.

Grand Lodge

Nobody has a Net?

Everyone of my martial PCs picks up a Net.


RedDogMT wrote:

I'm curious, how is it that the withraw action can be used, but the charge action cannot?

Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed.

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.

The movement allowances for each action are very similar. I would think that whatever obstacles or conditions that hinder the charge would also hinder the withdraw.

Charge must be done in straight line. So any corner you can turn, forbid charging, but not withdrawing


RedDog: Withdraw is a full round, but is only a move, a charge is a special attack/move that has very specific requirements, one of which is straight lines

Liberty's Edge

gustavo iglesias wrote:
Charge must be done in straight line. So any corner you can turn, forbid charging, but not withdrawing

This is precisely the problem.


Your problem is, as you said:

1.) The terrain is unfavorable.

2.) Your party is woefully unprepared for anything that can't be meleed.

3.) Nobody has extra movement speed.

There's not a solution to "you dun goofed", sorry, besides "Come back better prepared".


Feral wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Charge must be done in straight line. So any corner you can turn, forbid charging, but not withdrawing
This is precisely the problem.

Frequent corners also kill the ranged weapons suggestions and most attack spells. You have to double move to establish line of sight, so you can't shoot or cast.

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:

Your problem is, as you said:

1.) The terrain is unfavorable.

Does anything that prevents charges count as unfavorable? If you weren't aware, there are tons of things that prevent a charge.

Quote:
2.) Your party is woefully unprepared for anything that can't be meleed.

Perhaps but that's one of the things I'm looking for. I'd like to see solutions to withdraw spam that can be used reactively rather than preemptively. It's not practical to go into every encounter and ready actions constantly in fear of enemies retreating.

Quote:
3.) Nobody has extra movement speed.

Anything short of 60 feet base movement is not enough. Getting ahead of the withdrawing character just means they withdraw the other direction.


1.) Anything that allows someone to just "lol I'ma run, kay?" away from you without you being able to catch them is unfavorable.

2.) I didn't say ready actions to prevent anyone from retreating. Nobody in your party had a bow? Tanglefoot Bags (something that's very nice to have on hand and shows up in random loot)? Nets, Bolas, ANYTHING? Or even better, spells of any kind? Hold Person, Entangle, Black Tentacles, something like that?

3.) You do realize not everybody has to run in front of them right? You get someone ahead of them, and then everyone else stays behind. That way, when they "withdraw in the other direction" they run into other people. It's basic tactics. I'm guessing you were never much of a Tag player as a kid.


Our Rogue scouts ahead and is often discovered behind enemy lines... We are happy that he can run away with his slghtly above average speed and successive withdrawals, and as he leads them to the rest of the party that qualifies as a trap!

Its good for pc's and for stories if its possible to run away sometimes. Generally archers and spellcasters are impossible to escape.

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:
1.) Anything that allows someone to just "lol I'ma run, kay?" away from you without you being able to catch them is unfavorable.

So difficult terrain, walls, other enemy combatants, etc.

Anything shy of a big flat plain is unfavorable terrain.

Quote:
2.) I didn't say ready actions to prevent anyone from retreating. Nobody in your party had a bow? Tanglefoot Bags (something that's very nice to have on hand and shows up in random loot)? Nets, Bolas, ANYTHING? Or even better, spells of any kind? Hold Person, Entangle, Black Tentacles, something like that?

Secondary bows are only really a viable solution at low levels. At middling levels they aren't going to do enough to matter. 1d8+4 isn't going to matter against an enemy with 100+ HP. Tanglefoot bags have a 10 foot range increment. So you're taking a -6 penalty to hit with it after the enemy moves away.

Quote:
3.) You do realize not everybody has to run in front of them right? You get someone ahead of them, and then everyone else stays behind. That way, when they "withdraw in the other direction" they run into other people. It's basic tactics. I'm guessing you were never much of a Tag player as a kid.

This is the first good solution you've had. Yes, if you have multiple party members chase after the fleeing enemy (at least one of which is faster) you can 'trap' it and force it to provoke at least once.

Even so, it seems kind of silly that it requires a coordinated effort to catch one enemy with average speed.


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Feral wrote:

So difficult terrain, walls, other enemy combatants, etc.

Anything shy of a big flat plain is unfavorable terrain.

Don't get petulant. Yes, difficult terrain is unfavorable (hence why it's called "difficult"), the other things are manageable as long as your only thought isn't "Moving double means I have to charge, right?"

Feral wrote:
Secondary bows are only really a viable solution at low levels. At middling levels they aren't going to do enough to matter. 1d8+4 isn't going to matter against an enemy with 100+ HP.

They'll be a lot more viable than standing around with your thumb up your ass because you can't catch a guy.

Feral wrote:
Tanglefoot bags have a 10 foot range increment. So you're taking a -6 penalty to hit with it after the enemy moves away.

That's cool and stuff but a -6 on a touch attack is hardly a problem.

Feral wrote:

This is the first good solution you've had. Yes, if you have multiple party members chase after the fleeing enemy (at least one of which is faster) you can 'trap' it and force it to provoke at least once.

Even so, it seems kind of silly that it requires a coordinated effort to catch one enemy with average speed.

It's not silly at all. If you're uncoordinated and unprepared of course it's going to be difficult. That's like saying it seems silly that it's impossible to kill a ghost when you forgot to bring a spellcaster or a magic weapon of any sort.


Has the rogue attacked you?


If there's not a lot of turns, the feat Dragon Style lets you ignore difficult terrain when charging.
Rhino Charge lets you ready a charge action, so assuming that you you can get close enough to have a straight line to your target in a single move you could ready a charge on her next move.

But yes, in a twisty dungeon with 5-foot wide cooridors it's conceivable that someone could keep withdrawing from a melee character without a reach weapon. They wouldn't get away (as you'd stay with them), but they wouldn't get hit. That's why, like others said, having tanglefoot bags, nets, spells, etc. are a good idea. Consider the following solutions:

1) Tanglefoot bag! - As long as you hit with a ranged touch attack, they move at half speed. They could even be stuck to the floor.
2) Summon Monster behind them, cutting them off.
3) Caltrops behind them. (This hurts you as well, so have protective footwear).
4) Elemental gem behind them, again cutting them off.
5) Cast Enlarge Person on the pursuer (for the reach).
6) Haste/Expeditious Retreat/Blessing of Fervor to allow you to catch and damage them.
7) Wield a reach weapon.

There are a ton of other options, especially if you move out from a 5-foot wide corridor and/or into something with straight lines.

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