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Do we both agree that after you turn invisible, anything you pick up, or that sticks to you, that you do not conceal behind robes, clothing etc, is still visible?
Because that's what the spell description says

Now how would dirty trick/mud kick or something similar, say, throwing flour on the target NOT work to visual identify their location?

I'm not saying it makes them visible, just like having scent and being 5ft away doesn't make them visible, nor does Glitterdust, none of these things actually make them visible OR negate the 50% miss chance, it just allows you to target your attacks that will suffer that 50% miss chance

On a strange note, Faerie Fire specifically says it negates the 50% miss chance, while Glitterdust does not, but both impose a Stealth penalty, which would negate the bonus from being invisible (at least partially), and allow for Perception checks to pin-point invisible foes.


Glitterdust doesn't remove his total concealment either, but I agree with you that I'd let my players target him with spells, what I'm getting at is that invisibility and concealment are only means to avoid enemies knowing which square to target in the first place. And that the spells have a way of 'finding' the appropriate target once you cast them into the correct place, as in the case of the Mirror Image example.

Here's an idea,
New spell

Name: Pollock's Fury
Area of Effect, pain falls from 10 ft above the area designated and sticks to everything it touches, possible colours include bright orange, yellow, and Hot pink. The paint does not blind or unduly confuse those affected or in any way hinder them other than to visually colour them. The paint wares of in 1d4 minutes or by full immersion in water or a similar liquid.

Save: None (Its a Conjuration spell after all) Spell Resistance: None

Now if I was the wizard and wanted to make my own spells, THIS would be on the list haha. And it probably wouldn't be very high level


You can place flour on an object to keep visual track of it, but mud wouldn't work on a creature? After the invisibility effect is cast, for the duration, everything else on or picked up by the creature is visible unless tucked away, so why not?


How about this scenario, use a Dirty Trick to kick mud at someone, mud sticks to them and shows where they are, then cast a spell targeting them?


Fair enough, I'd read that part in the rules too, I was just unsure what, specifically 'see' means, for example, if a creature is invisible but covered by glitter dust is it still unable to be targeted by spells?

Glitter dust reads "visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell" Although it doesn't actually say it negates the effect of invisibility

But I guess this is a tangent to the scenario I presented above, here the target at least has some visual cues as to there where abouts.

My line of thinking is, just as a spell caster can cast a spell at a living creature subject to mirror image (as long as it doesn't require an attack roll it still hits the target no matter) why not be able to target a creature you know is there, in a square you know they're in.

As a DM it's something I'd house rule on but I'd like to know what others think


Can spells that target foes be used on invisible targets that have been pin-pointed?, lets say a caster with the scent ability, starts his turn 5ft away from an invisible creature (Auto pin-point), takes a 5ft step away (To avoid AoO), and casts, say Hold Person on the pin pointed creature.

What happens with the save? does miss chance still come into it at all?


Of course, it doesn't help against a lot of the spells a lvl 20 could throw at a lvl 5, but if you were the level 20 caster, would you start a battle using such a high spell slot for a level 5 threat(s)?

I was simply trying to point out how it can be a great leveler of spell casters, as highly situational as it may be

And regarding Combat Casting, it only helps when casting defensively, IE when you're threatened while casting, its not an all round +4 to concentration checks


Can spells that target foes be used on invisible targets that have been pin-pointed?, lets say a caster with the scent ability, starts his turn 5ft away from an invisible creature (Auto pin-point), takes a 5ft step away (To avoid AoO), and casts, say Hold Person on the pin pointed creature.

What happens with the save? does miss chance still come into it at all?


The great thing about counterspelling (Via same or opposed spell but NOT dispel magic) is that there is no check, no opposed caster levels etc etc, a 5th level Wizard can counter a 20th level wizard's Maximized fireball with NO CHECKS, and ruling out any interruption to the 5th level wizard's cast, no chance to fail as far as I can see from the rules.
Thats gotta be good value.

But the obvious draw back, like many stated is that you have to have the spell ready, but if you know your target well, you can put the odds a little more in your favour.

Edit: By no checks I mean on the dispelling itself, not the identifying, which is obviously a check


Use the supplied Evasion and Pursuit/chase mechanics. In the short term is a Dex based Check-off, in which case they might win, but longer term its Con based Check-off. If they're a rogue and you're anything other than a caster or another rogue then there's a fair chance you have better Constitution score, and can out run them over time, Endurance feat might help here, not sure.

Can you attempt a trip attack with a thrown improvised weapon?
Throwing, say, a long sword could surely cause someone to get a little off balance...


As a DM I (Personally) think that playing enemy NPCs as smart as they are should be encouraged, I play fighters as bloodthirsty towards their enemies and Rogues as think first/ stab later kind of people, as long as the players don't feel you're Metagaming the NPC's actions specifically against them (Unless the storyline calls for just that)

From my experience, players get more satisfaction from near victories or even near defeats (where they still survive) then they do from easy kills.

And if players whinge about tactics used against them often, then they should probably start countering in some way, that's just common sense, kinda like trying not to run into the same glass door for the third time...

But as with most things, moderation and appropriateness/context are important. And I don't believe in dick moves, its up to the DM to make the final adjudication on what seems unfair or unbalanced.

And with regards to sundering objects of great value, if players don't want to risk losing loot and feel they can still win, then don't bother, but which is better? losing the item as loot after winning the fight? or dying at the hands of said item from you enemy

But perhaps I just run a pretty mean game.


And regarding the Floating disk and whether you can ride it or not, I believe it was in D&D 3.5, where it was actually called Tensor's Floating disk that it may have specifically said you couldn't ride it, as someone on another forum put it regarding the subject

"Sit on the disk, dangle your legs over the edge opposite the direction you want to travel, and direct the disk to follow you at a distance of six feet..."

It might not be intended to be ridden, but it seems to be possible nonetheless, which makes it an extremely useful spell at only lvl 1


Disguising poison to look like potions is also hilarious, after all who's going to make the check to try to identify what's in the bottle labelled "Cure Serious Wounds", and if you just use a real bottle and label, it doesn't even count as interaction until they drink the liquid.

But as mentioned above, the fun you can have with explosive runes is pretty much endless, unless you're up against the illiterate...

A good way of clearing out pesky underground lairs full of low HP critters, Barrels of flammable oil, spread out in passage ways and lit, if you're at the top of a slope or stairs, use the Create Water lvl 0 spell to get it moving, also works to smoke out or suffocate anything in small-ish areas.

Or a passage way that can only be crossed by swimming across what looks like a 10ft deep pool of water, the illusion being that its only a foot of real water and an illusion on the floor to make it look deeper... my players are fond of not over thinking it and just diving in head first, also works with disguising acid to look like water.... but I think my players are getting suspicious of seemingly innocuous stuff like that now...


The wording of Forgotten Trick makes it sound pretty obvious in my mind that you cannot repeatedly spam Combat Trick for each time a new combat Feat

"A ninja with this ability can recall one trick taught to her by her ancient masters"

She can recall the trick, and seeing as she only ever gets 1 version of Combat Trick

"Unless otherwise noted, a ninja cannot select an individual ninja trick more than once."

Wouldn't the first time she uses the Forgotten trick/Combat trick/ Combat feat FIX the feat, then every time she uses Forgotten trick/Combat trick, she would remember the same Combat Feat.


Against invisible threats here are some ad hoc ideas,

Use a Dirty Trick to kick dust/debris/mud/snow onto located invisible targets to make them show. The Grease spell also could work, to show footprints at worst, and if they fall that grease is going to cover them too

Magehand spell to spring traps, or several castings of ray of frost to freeze mechanisms solid, depending on how free-style the DM is.

Need to get down from a great height? Can't Climb? can't fly? then if the environment permits, cast web some 10ft off the ground (you do need 2 opposite side) and jump in, get grappled, take no fall damage, then Dispel it and land softly (Softer) onto the ground below.

Unseen servant spell can trigger traps, as mentioned in its description it can drag up to 100lb, give it a broom and tell it to sweep the corridor ahead to spring traps perhaps.
Or just get your servant to carry a rope across a river and around a tree on the other side and back so you can make a rope bridge etc.

Floating disk could be used to transport you above any dangers on the ground, supports 100lb per caster lvl,

Use Disguise self to appear undead to thwart a rogue who would love to sneak attack you, Sneak attack reads "..see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot"
So could be argued that Sneak attack is a choice, and why would someone try on an enemy they believe to be immune? Probably involve a Bluff check at least...

Just a few ideas