armour takes too long to drop, unless you use specialized armour
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Others have already mentioned, but the "Evasion and Pursuit" rules were written exactly for these situations.
In round-by-round movement, when simply counting off squares, it's impossible for a slow character to get away from a determined fast character without mitigating circumstances. Likewise, it's no problem for a fast character to get away from a slower one.
When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there's a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature.
Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest.
If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina.
In this situation, after the first couple of rounds you should be rolling opposed DEX checks. While both of your characters can move the same overall amount of speed in each 6-second action, the likelihood is that one or the other will run slightly faster; for example, if the pursuer was able to win a couple of opposed DEX checks, then I would rule that he was able to put on a burst of speed and catch his foe after only a standard movement, leaving him an action. Now, if he missed that action, then the whole thing would start all over.
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Running to get ahead and then readying to grapple isn't an option. Running is a full-round action.
Speeding up doesn't really help either unless your speed is equal to or greater than the fleeing character's double move. Even if you are speed 55, if you're opponent is speed 30, you're never going to catch him in a way that lets you get that trip/grapple/etc in.
Running to get ahead and then readying to grapple isn't an option. Running is a full-round action.
Speeding up doesn't really help either unless your speed is equal to or greater than the fleeing character's double move. Even if you are speed 55, if you're opponent is speed 30, you're never going to catch him in a way that lets you get that trip/grapple/etc in.
Per the rules, a double move is considered a 'hustle'. A character who hustles for more than an hour becomes fatigued at the end of the second hour and exhausted at the end of the third (which reduces their movement speed by half). With an enhanced movement speed of 55, without taking a double move you're still always within 5 feet of them; you won't become fatigued\exhausted, but you'll be able to harry the target until he does.
Even if you become fatigued, your 55 base movement will go to 25, while the enemy's will go to 15; at that point you can catch him.
So, if I'm reading your question right, you want to know how to stop a foe from fleeing rather than sticking around to get cut up, in terrain that is essentially a near-perfect design for said foe to take exactly that tactic with no way to make your speed superior to your foe's correct?
Short answer?
You can't.
Long answer?
Why do you care? Are you here to kill this person? If you're not, just let them keep backing up while you advance to your goal. If they give you even one opportunity otherwise, grapple them and hold them till everyone dogpiles on. Otherwise ignore them entirely and continue about your business as if they didn't exist. Why are letting them get under your skin? Do you really need to kill every monster in the dungeon, even if you get XP for just 'defeating/bypassing' it?
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Couldn't you move your normal and then prepare an action to charge once the enemy starts moving? Being that readied actions interrupt the triggering action and assuming double moves put you within 5 feet you could actually hit, or are you walking over difficult terrain?
You cannot ready a charge, which is a full round action.
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So, if I'm reading your question right, you want to know how to stop a foe from fleeing rather than sticking around to get cut up, in terrain that is essentially a near-perfect design for said foe to take exactly that tactic with no way to make your speed superior to your foe's correct?
The terrain isn't near perfect. Any terrain prevents charges.
Superior speed does nothing unless your speed is literally double the fleeing character's.
As for letting opponents flee, I don't normally mind but it comes up on occasion where an important opponent has to be captured or killed. It continues to strike me as odd that one single person can easily evade another (faster) person indefinitely with even the most minor amount of terrain.
I guess I'll have to file this as 'one of those things 4e handles better'.
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False, the only terrain that prevents charges is difficult terrain, terrain with obstacles that interrupt your path, or dungeons with lots of sharp turns (and that only stops charges if you are in the situation you are currently in).
Correct. Any terrain worth mentioning.
I don't consider sparsely scattered patches of difficult terrain 'near perfect design'. Most battles I've seen take place on maps with some degree of difficult terrain and/or blocking walls. A single patch of difficult terrain ~60’ apart is not some sort of dastardly escape plan.
False, if I move at 40' per move and you move at 30' per move then on a double move I am 20' closer to you than I was previously. If the enemy starts at 60' away it only takes you one round before you catch up to him to allow you to use a single move and your standard action assuming you go first. Unless of course this is a 1v1 situation, is it?
Correct.
Your opponent withdraws 60'. Moving at speed 55 (requiring you to double move again), you get adjacent. He withdraws again. Your superior speed has accomplished nothing.
Any speed less than double the fleeing character's speed does nothing.
As stated by others the person being chased will eventually tire out and be unable to run so this is less of a problem than you are making it out to be.
We've already established that a group of people can pin down a fleeing character. I'm still interested in 1v1 options. Chasing a withdrawing opponent for an hour is not a viable option.
Well if you're really up for ANYTHING.
Enter the Opponent's square. You'll face an Attack of Opportunity and be squeezing, but if they withdraw, the first square they leave will be the one you are both in. The second square will provoke and be within your 5' reach.
It's a sacrifice play, but by the RAW it could work.
Correct.Your opponent withdraws 60'. Moving at speed 55 (requiring you to double move again), you get adjacent. He withdraws again. Your superior speed has accomplished nothing.
Any speed less than double the fleeing character's speed does nothing.
This is basically the Pathfinder version of Zeno's Paradox of Archilles and the Tortoise. Of course, if you're just moving up to where someone is, they'll be able to continually out-run you, but you're not thinking smart.
Now, there are either two situations here.
1. No terrain obstructions. Solution: you can charge them and pummel them into submission.
2. Terrain obstructions. Solution: stop thinking about these as only hindering you and use them to your advantage. If you have a greater movement speed than your opponent then you can direct their movement. Don't just move up behind them. Move beside them. They always have to run perpendicularly away from you to avoid an AoO. Drive them into a wall, or a corner, or into some difficult terrain, or towards allies, or towards a cliff.
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Well if you're really up for ANYTHING.
Enter the Opponent's square. You'll face an Attack of Opportunity and be squeezing, but if they withdraw, the first square they leave will be the one you are both in. The second square will provoke and be within your 5' reach.
It's a sacrifice play, but by the RAW it could work.
This is potentially a good suggestion. Can you actually do this by RAW?
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2. Terrain obstructions. Solution: stop thinking about these as only hindering you and use them to your advantage. If you have a greater movement speed than your opponent then you can direct their movement. Don't just move up behind them. Move beside them. They always have to run perpendicularly away from you to avoid an AoO. Drive them into a wall, or a corner, or into some difficult terrain, or towards allies, or towards a cliff.
This potentially can work in the case of a wall or other blocking terrain and it's certainly worth mentioning.
It's less of an option with difficult terrain, in which case it only helps the fleeing character and can't be used by the attacker.
It's less of an option with difficult terrain, in which case it only helps the fleeing character and can't be used by the attacker.
Not always. With a movement speed of 55, you receive a +8 on acrobatics checks for jumping. On the turn they enter the difficult terrain, you use your movement action to run and jump to stand next to them, so you still have your standard to act.
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This is potentially a good suggestion. Can you actually do this by RAW?Well if you're really up for ANYTHING.
Enter the Opponent's square. You'll face an Attack of Opportunity and be squeezing, but if they withdraw, the first square they leave will be the one you are both in. The second square will provoke and be within your 5' reach.
It's a sacrifice play, but by the RAW it could work.
No, you can't. As has been mentioned, there is a rule that prevents ending a turn in the same square as a non-helpless creature. Squeezing doesn't work this way. If you have the speed, you can tumble through to the opposite side, though. The opposed Dex check resolves the situation tho.
We've already established that a group of people can pin down a fleeing character. I'm still interested in 1v1 options. Chasing a withdrawing opponent for an hour is not a viable option.
It's not only viable, it's realistic.
Real-life example: Wolves can run in short bursts at 35 mph. Deer have a general run speed of 40 mph. However, wolves have greater stamina. While a deer may be able to outrun a wolf in the short term, the wolf has greater stamina, and lone wolves can (and will) take down a deer in an extended harrying session. It's how a lone wolf normally brings down prey.
One thing to keep in mind: In a single round, the scenario is not, "I run up to the enemy and end adjacent to him; he then runs away before I can react." Actions take place roughly simultaneously; initiative is reaction time measured in a matter of milliseconds. You are running toward the enemy at the same time he is running away from you, not running toward an unmoving foe, then stopping and watching him run away from you.
Using the Evasion and Pursuit rules, in your example of a character with a speed of 55 versus a foe with a speed of 30, the system would allow opposed DEX checks (with a sizable bonus modifier for the faster character) to see if you could overtake the enemy mid-round with an action remaining. Could the system make this more clear? Yes, because as written it (incorrectly, IMO) indicates that those opposed rolls only occur in instances where movement speeds are equal.
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Using the Evasion and Pursuit rules, in your example of a character with a speed of 55 versus a foe with a speed of 30, the system would allow opposed DEX checks (with a sizable bonus modifier for the faster character) to see if you could overtake the enemy mid-round with an action remaining. Could the system make this more clear? Yes, because as written it (incorrectly, IMO) indicates that those opposed rolls only occur in instances where movement speeds are equal.
The Evasion and Pursuit rules state that someone with a faster speed will always run down someone with a slower speed assuming no mitigating circumstances. I like the bonus idea better, of course. I also like bringing in the constitution checks for situations shorter than days on end.
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Carrying around a reach weapon specifically to counter withdraw spam is one of the least obtrusive solutions brought up. It's definitely something to keep in mind.
As I mentioned before, a secondary bow isn't a viable solution past low levels. Shooting a fleeing enemy for 1d8+3/4 when they have 100+ HP is not enough to matter.
Tanglefoot bags are also overly risky. With a 10 foot range increment you're likely going to have serious penalties and if you miss there's no way you're going to catch the fleeing enemy. (Unless you're the speed 55 character I mentioned above).
4e handles this in few ways.
*There's no Withdraw as we know it. You can shift away as a move action (Shift being a 5-foot step) and then move away safely (effectively moving 35 feet away).
*Pursuing characters can run as a move action. A run is a normal move plus two extra squares. This has the downside of imposing a -5 penalty on any attack you make that turn but at least you can catch the fleeing character and attack.
*Alternatively, you can charge as a standard action (through difficult terrain).
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What would you rule it means by "catching" the escaping foe? No rules are listed so would you rule that he gets a standard action or that the escaping character is already grappled and bound once he is caught?
Catching means getting to them and attacking them effectively or preventing them from withdrawing away again.
A 1v1 chase with approximately the same speed in difficult terrain really is difficult to resolve in real life. One person chasing down 1 other person is pretty hard to pin them down. It is magnitudes easier with multiple pursuers. But you are correct, it is not impossible in real life if the pursuer is a bit faster.
This is aggravated by the turn based nature of PF’s approximation of real life.
This is why there are the chase rules as has already been suggested. Have you asked the GM about using them?
Also I believe you can use acrobatics to ignore some of the effects of difficult terrain. I don’t remember the rule off the top of my head and can’t look it up at work.
If as you say it keeps coming up, why won’t you purchase any of the gear that could help? You said you already knew of those things. Uhmm… so buy some of them.
Work with another PC to pin them down.
Try to make use of intimidate, bluff, stealth, etc…
Feral, are you looking for solutions to a real scenario, or is your question hypothetical?
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Sorry, I don't check this thread everyday.
The Evasion and Pursuit rules are certainly doable but A) It doesn't function in the scenario I laid out where a faster character is chasing a slower character but isn't able to attack him due to Withdraw being too effective and B) It's a bit unwieldy (I imagine most DMs would give you a funny look if you said "Okay, let's use Evasion and Pursuit rules!" in the middle of a scenario.)
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This same scenario has come up several times in our group while engaging in guerrilla tactics with sentries for the thieves guild in their tunnels. Every time preparation has been the key.
1st time - The party advanced slowly as if unaware of the thief while my ninja, may Pharasma rest his soul, used vanishing trick to run behind the thief, who had no reason to run seeing as he wasn't being chased as far as he knew, and spread caltrops in his line of retreat.
2nd time - Ninja and rogue scouted 30' ahead of the party and group sneaked the thief before he even knew we were there.
3rd time - The sentry saw us and began withdrawing. The wizard ran up 30' and used create pit (2nd level spell w/ 100' + 10'/level range) to make a pit right behind him.
There are all kinds of tactics you can use but if you are just a bunch of brute force melee fighters trying to catch someone using guerrilla tactics you are going to loose.
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Sure it does. The person with the faster speed automatically catches up to the person with the slower speed barring mitigating circumstances. Considering "Evasion and Pursuit" is A) Core, and B) isn't an optional rule, I don't see why your GM should balk when you bring it up, especially when his players are getting frustrated that round after round is nothing but double moves without a hope of ending.
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If they have the same speed, and if the quarry is visible to trigger the ready, then move followed by Ready Action (Move, if he moves) will get an AoO if he moves, but not if he withdraws. Nice creative idea that puts the GM in the metagame hotspot.
Not to mention the player metagaming, right?
It would work once, then the target know of this tactic and react to it.I find the tactic of "if you (GM) have your NPC reacting intelligently to my action it is metagaming" very distasteful Howie.
I am sad to see you suggest this kind of tactic.
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If they have the same speed, and if the quarry is visible to trigger the ready, then move followed by Ready Action (Move, if he moves) will get an AoO if he moves, but not if he withdraws. Nice creative idea that puts the GM in the metagame hotspot.Not to mention the player metagaming, right?
It would work once, then the target know of this tactic and react to it.I find the tactic of "if you (GM) have your NPC reacting intelligently to my action it is metagaming" very distasteful Howie.
I am sad to see you suggest this kind of tactic.
/shrug. It's the GM running an encounter round-by-round that has no business being run round-by-round.
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/shrug. It's the GM running an encounter round-by-round that has no business being run round-by-round.If they have the same speed, and if the quarry is visible to trigger the ready, then move followed by Ready Action (Move, if he moves) will get an AoO if he moves, but not if he withdraws. Nice creative idea that puts the GM in the metagame hotspot.Not to mention the player metagaming, right?
It would work once, then the target know of this tactic and react to it.I find the tactic of "if you (GM) have your NPC reacting intelligently to my action it is metagaming" very distasteful Howie.
I am sad to see you suggest this kind of tactic.
My impression is that is more the player that want it run round by round.
Feral has found himself in the same situation in October (see the start of the thread), he is in a city (CoT campaign) and hasn't bothered buying the equipment to resolve the problem in the meantime.
It sound more like a guy having a hammer as an instrument and trying to use it to resolve any problem than a guy trying to find the right instrument for his problem.
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If they have the same speed, and if the quarry is visible to trigger the ready, then move followed by Ready Action (Move, if he moves) will get an AoO if he moves, but not if he withdraws. Nice creative idea that puts the GM in the metagame hotspot.
Question for you Howie. A 5' step is a move for your readied action?
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Feral has found himself in the same situation in October (see the start of the thread), he is in a city (CoT campaign) and hasn't bothered buying the equipment to resolve the problem in the meantime.
That is my impression. OP has still not explained why spells and magic items are not an option. He is specifically looking for a creative interpretation of the movement rules or combat maneuvers to get around a tactic he views as "too effective" because it works beautifully against his woefully under prepared party.
Even getting the party rogue with maxed out UMD a scroll of create pit, web or entangle could handle this situation.
That is my impression. OP has still not explained why spells and magic items are not an option. He is specifically looking for a creative interpretation of the movement rules or combat maneuvers to get around a tactic he views as "too effective" because it works beautifully against his woefully under prepared party.Even getting the party rogue with maxed out UMD a scroll of create pit, web or entangle could handle this situation.
The solution was back on page one: "Buy a reach weapon." A longspear is all of 5 gold pieces. The rest of it is just a hypothetical exercise in creative movement.
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Carrying around a reach weapon was a good suggestion as well but I like the readied move action better. Thematically, I don't like the 'golf caddie of weapons' character. The readied move action was exactly what I was looking for, a simple solution that almost any character can do.
I don't see many DMs handling it well when you say, "So I've been chasing this withdrawing guy for three rounds now. According to the Evasion and Pursuit rules I should automatically catch him."
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Those rules don't say that.
Evasion and Pursuit
In round-by-round movement, when simply counting off squares, it's impossible for a slow character to get away from a determined fast character without mitigating circumstances. Likewise, it's no problem for a fast character to get away from a slower one.
When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there's a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature.
Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest. If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina.
Nothing automatic in these rules.