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Alright well I'll be joining a PFS game at a local gaming store and wanted to get some advice on a build that I want to play. I'd like to play a ranged paladin and planned on taking a brief dip into fighter.
First piece of advice I'd like is whether to go fighter at 1st level or fighter at 3rd? I can see some benefits either way by getting good saves nice and early on or being really functional with a bow nice and early. My gut is saying go with the bow (aka fighter at 1) in case i've got to fire into combat, which would be horrid with a -4 penalty especially at first level. The downside is my will save is going to be horrid until I get divine grace.
Second piece of advice is on the feat selection and attributes I suppose. I guess I could drop charisma down to 16 and bump con up to 14 and get my dex to 19, but I'm not really certain. So some feedback in attributes and feats would be much appreciated.
Race: Halfling
Fighter 1/Paladin 11 or Paladin 2 Fighter 1 Paladin 9
Str: 12 (5)
Dex: 18 (10)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha 18 (10)
Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 3: Rapid Shot 5: Deadly Aim 7: Many Shot 9: Weapon Focus 11: Improved Precise Shot
The main difference would be sliding Precise Shot into level 3 I guess if I moved fighter to the 3rd level and lump it in with Rapid Shot. Thanks for the advice in advance.
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You should take the Divine Hunter Archetype for Paladins. You will give up Heavy Armor Prof, which as an archer and being small you probably wouldn't be using anyways, for Precise Shot without having to meet the pre-reqs. That way you can get point blank shot as well at first level, or even another feat like iron will to shore up those will saves from your low wisdom.
You should take the Divine Hunter Archetype for Paladins. You will give up Heavy Armor Prof, which as an archer and being small you probably wouldn't be using anyways, for Precise Shot without having to meet the pre-reqs. That way you can get point blank shot as well at first level, or even another feat like iron will to shore up those will saves from your low wisdom.
My theory is that Paizo created Divine Hunter because they realized the standard Paladin was too powerful and wanted to trick paladin archers into giving up their best powers. You give up aura of courage for a crappy power, you give up mercy to avoid having the paly walk 10 feet to lay on hands, and you neuter Aura of Justice, probably the most powerful Paly ability of all.
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Looks like the charming village idiot has taken up crusading again...
I agree with Jaryn, Divine Hunter is the way to go for a ranged Paladin. In addition to getting a useful bonus feat, which should allow you to stick with Paladin rather than trying to wedge in a level of Fighter.
The Rat is right that you give up mercy in favor of ranged healing, but you only give up your 6th level mercy, still getting one at 3, 9, 12, 15, and 18. Also, 5' per Paladin level is pretty useful for a ranged attacker who doesn't want to get close to the front line where the damage is being taken.
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I agree with Jaryn, Divine Hunter is the way to go for a ranged Paladin. In addition to getting a useful bonus feat, which should allow you to stick with Paladin rather than trying to wedge in a level of Fighter.
The Rat is right that you give up mercy in favor of ranged healing, but you only give up your 6th level mercy, still getting one at 3, 9, 12, 15, and 18. Also, 5' per Paladin level is pretty useful for a ranged attacker who doesn't want to get close to the front line where the damage is being taken.
do you want to be a max damage build? or do you want to play healing support? max damage i would say: oath of vengence (because 3 smite evils are not enough)
pally10 fighter 2feats:
build like a ranger making sure to ignore clustered shots.
as a ranged pally support:
12 pally (no oath)
i actually have the 2 builds i would use build, i just dont have the time to post them.
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Max damage is the plan so adding the oath of vengeance is probably wise as well. So would something like this be a bit better then? I've gone ahead and given that extra bump to Dex and raised Con a bit and lowered Cha. Regardless of optimizing I'd like to stick with a Halfling just to be a bit different and not go human.
Race: Halfling
Fighter 1/paladin 2/fighter 1/ paladin 8
Oath: Oath of Vengeance
Str: 12 (5)
Dex: 19 (13)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha 16 (5)
Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 3: Rapid Shot 4: deadly aim 5: Weapon Focus 7: Many Shot 9: improved critical 11: Improved Precise Shot
Well I think this looks good. I took away divine hunter and kept the oath since as rat mentioned you can't have both.
Max damage is the plan so adding the oath of vengeance is probably wise as well.
You can't take both oath of vengeance and divine hunter, as both replace Aura of Justice.
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I wouldn't want this character to sit at a PFS table with one of mine. If you were human instead of halfling, you could eliminate the fighter dip entirely. This guy has a life expectancy measured in minutes. He has a low Con, hideous Wis and Int.
You need to put more emphasize on survivablility and less on min-maxing your Dex and Cha. You are going to have horrible skills which are important in PFS to accomplish your faction missions.
You're going to have to make serious changes to have a viable character. It's a question of whether you do it up-front or if you want to play a few modules and start over.
I agree a con of 14 should be the minimum, but he could easily get away with an 8 wis, especially if he takes a trait that give a +1 will save. Palys have a full will save progression, aura of courage and divine grace, so they aren't exactly hurting on the will front.
If he is going to deal with just one skill point/level, he can take diplomacy which is probably the most important skill for faction missions anyway. And if you are going to drop int you may as well drop it all the way to 7 since you still get the same 1 skill point.
Personally I would drop the cha/dex, one to 16 and one to 17 (the one he will be putting points into). And up the Str to 14 - another +1 to all damage dice on the composite bow is invaluable.
Palys are going to have at least one bad stat, especially archer palys, since they are so MAD.
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I wouldn't want this character to sit at a PFS table with one of mine. If you were human instead of halfling, you could eliminate the fighter dip entirely. This guy has a life expectancy measured in minutes. He has a low Con, hideous Wis and Int.
You need to put more emphasize on survivablility and less on min-maxing your Dex and Cha. You are going to have horrible skills which are important in PFS to accomplish your faction missions.
You're going to have to make serious changes to have a viable character. It's a question of whether you do it up-front or if you want to play a few modules and start over.
Now this isn't the first pfs game I've played so i know he isn't really that bad. His will save is going to be hurting until divine grace kicks in but after that should be okay. I can also grab a trait that will give me another +1. The skill I dump into will be diplomacy and it's a class skill for a pally with a decent charisma so that should be somewhat alright but with a 2 sp class to begin with I figure the 7 to free up some points to round out the other necessary stats. A 14 con is pretty decent for an archer as well I feel like.
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Ranged Pally? Well first, halfling is a worse call than you might expect; -2 damage / shot is tough @ low levels, nor is giving up deadly aim. I'd generally go human. Also, fighter really gives you little multi-classing. The divine hunter may be a trap, but multiclassing is worse:
Edit: Just read the "stay halfling" bit... that is rough, but here goes:
Straight Pally
Str: 14 (10)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Dex: 18 (10)
Con: 12 (2)
Chr: 16 (5)
Feats:
1: Point Blank
3: Precise
5: Rapid
7: Multishot
9: Deadly Aim
11: Improved Precise
Having the 14 strength makes up a little for the -1 damage of small bows. Giving up deadly aim till 9 kinda sucks, but hitting consistantly can be really good too, just aim for keywords instead of "straight pluses" for bow.
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I wouldn't want this character to sit at a PFS table with one of mine. If you were human instead of halfling, you could eliminate the fighter dip entirely. This guy has a life expectancy measured in minutes. He has a low Con, hideous Wis and Int.
You need to put more emphasize on survivablility and less on min-maxing your Dex and Cha. You are going to have horrible skills which are important in PFS to accomplish your faction missions.
You're going to have to make serious changes to have a viable character. It's a question of whether you do it up-front or if you want to play a few modules and start over.
just pointing this out, that pally with the crap stats, as you put it lol, will have saves similar to what ever character you have minus feats. also all PFS missions are optional not manditory. even if he had all 18's and 20 skills per level he can still choose not to do them. also an extra 24 hp at 12th can be made up for by swift action layon hands.
i will admit that i personally would stat my character:
14 5
14 5
14 5
10 0
10 0
14 5
which would change to:
12
16
14
10
10
16
with gnome. adding mighty composite +1 to your bow at level 2 would make up for the lower damage from small sized weapon. and i personally would go fighter 2/ pally/10 that way level one you get precise and level 2 you get rapid. you lose out on layon hands and increased saves, but seeing as though you want to do damage that's not an issue.
Sorry - if you came to me with a Pally with that stat block build I would slap you round the head, tell you to stop being such a munchkin min-maxer and send you back to reallocate.
7 Int?
7 Wisdom?
How the hell does any self-respecting religion allow you to become a paladin who is too stuopid to read their holy book and even if he could, wouldn't understand what 'Lawful Good' behaviour was, couldn't remember his God's name on bad days and would regularly forget where he left his horse AND how to summon it!
Jeezz....
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Sorry - if you came to me with a Pally with that stat block build I would slap you round the head, tell you to stop being such a munchkin min-maxer and send you back to reallocate.
7 Int?
7 Wisdom?
How the hell does any self-respecting religion allow you to become a paladin who is too stuopid to read their holy book and even if he could, wouldn't understand what 'Lawful Good' behaviour was, couldn't remember his God's name on bad days and would regularly forget where he left his horse AND how to summon it!
Jeezz....
These people are called crazy ass religious fanatics and they are out there in droves. It really wouldn't be too tough to play especially with an oath of vengeance. More of a do what your told and don't ask questions because someone with the "voice of a deity" said that's what the god wants done.
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All right children, don't turn every thread into a "min-max oh nose!" thread; he clearly indicates he's fine playing a less intelligent and wise character to optimize; he takes penalties and lacks skills for the choice; but is generally more powerful overall. Religious fanatics often have little wisdom or reading; just a fervor and desire to follow the ways of their gods. But this is an "optimize given a Halfling Archer Paladin" thread, so discuss it from that perspective.
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Hmm it really does seem like a human might make for a far easier choice. I'm guessing feats wise I'd just lump PBS and PS at 1 then move rapid shot to 3 and deadly aim to 5 does that sound about right? Stats wise I guess something like
Race: human
Pally 12
Oath: oath of vengeance
Str 14 (5)
Dex 16 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 9 (-1)
Wis 7 (-4)
Cha 16 (10)
That's a bit more balanced I suppose but I still like the idea of him being a bit of a crazy fanatic. While not necessarily intelligent or wise he learned his religion through something like a monastery and didn't just find faith but is fairly brainwashed and sees the world in a very black and white manner. I realize for stats a 9 is really as good as a 7 in terms of int but think i might even make the bump to 10 just as he becomes a bit more worldly and experiences the outside world a bit more and sees different perspectives.
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Well, human + favored class can give you 3 Skill points per level; I'd drop con to 12, you're not front line and can self heal as a swift action, you could argue as low as a 10.
You can always put int to 7, Str to 13 (-1 damage, but still qualify for deadly aim), you can get your critical 18 Dex for the character.
Sorry - if you came to me with a Pally with that stat block build I would slap you round the head, tell you to stop being such a munchkin min-maxer and send you back to reallocate.
7 Int?
7 Wisdom?
How the hell does any self-respecting religion allow you to become a paladin who is too stuopid to read their holy book and even if he could, wouldn't understand what 'Lawful Good' behaviour was, couldn't remember his God's name on bad days and would regularly forget where he left his horse AND how to summon it!
Jeezz....
sure, keep sending your 11 str, 10 dex, 10 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 10 cha paladins to missions and don't be surprised when they come back in coffins ;)
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The real downside is that your attack/damage with a bow vs non-evil will be garbage (you'll be -4 to every shot on a Rapid/Deadly attack from 4th-8th) at every level (aside from 1st/2nd) until you get an Oathbow...which traps you into STR:12(+item=14)...which is OK if you plan on Power Attack, but not OK if you plan on maxing DEX/CHA.Alright well I'll be joining a PFS game at a local gaming store and wanted to get some advice on a build that I want to play. I'd like to play a ranged paladin and planned on taking a brief dip into fighter.
First piece of advice I'd like is whether to go fighter at 1st level or fighter at 3rd? I can see some benefits either way by getting good saves nice and early on or being really functional with a bow nice and early. My gut is saying go with the bow (aka fighter at 1) in case i've got to fire into combat, which would be horrid with a -4 penalty especially at first level. The downside is my will save is going to be horrid until I get divine grace.
IMO starting with a 17 DEX and a 16 CHA is best; it'll let you start with 14 CON and 12 INT. Being stupid is no fun in PFS, because factions missions often (if not necessarily always) require making skill-checks. You will want UMD, Perception and Escape Artist totally jacked. Fighter...the only reason you're thinking about it is because archery is so feat-heavy. Result is your high-AC hitpoint-sink paladin who "cowardly" avoids melee while the rest of the party is getting mauled (when the best use of a halfling paladin is to tank and watch things bounce off you).Fighter 1/Paladin 11 or Paladin 2 Fighter 1 Paladin 9
Str: 12 (5)
Dex: 18 (10)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha 18 (10)
1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 3: Rapid Shot 5: Deadly Aim 7: Many Shot 9: Weapon Focus 11: Improved Precise Shot
WF and IPS you need the least. Take Piranha Strike, and buy an Agile rapier or scimitar around 5th. Two Weapon Fighting at 7th and you shred things with a pair of 'em (especially on Smites). Everybody loves a brave switch-hitter paladin who jumps in and pounds the tar out of the monsters. If you take fighter levels, Mounted Combat and Indomitable Mount are the two feats you're looking for (Dragoon archetype gives a free feat). Switch-hitter also means you can ditch Precise Shot (because you run/ride into melee when it gets crowded) for Boon Companion.
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just pointing this out, that pally with the crap stats, as you put it lol, will have saves similar to what ever character you have minus feats. also all PFS missions are optional not manditory. even if he had all 18's and 20 skills per level he can still choose not to do them. also an extra 24 hp at 12th can be made up for by swift action layon hands.
Good saves do not protect you from monsters that attack your stats. They may help against poisons and diseases that do the same thing. He can't use scrolls because his Wisdom is too low. He will have exactly one good skill (Diplomacy) and if a faction mission calls for Heal, Perception, Knowledge (any), he's out of luck.
If the faction mission calls for another skill he can sweet talk the other party members for help. In any case, the difference between 1 (2 if you use your favored class bonus for skills) and 3(4) skill points is 30 percent of your build points, a big deal with a MAD class. Something has to give. There is a good argument either way. While having more skills certainly helps your missions, you are always going to hit mods that require something weird that you don't have anyway.
mike, he is going to have a hard time keeping perception, escape artist and umd jacked since he will need a trait to even get these as class skulls or to use umd. Percep is hard even with a trait as the only ones require particular faction memberships.
For melee, Point Blank Master gets him into melee range and he can still use his good Dex instead of a so so str mod. If he doesn't mind the cheese, he can take the adopted trait and get that orc fang one so he can threaten in melee while using a bow.
ahh, but of course he needs weapon spec for that. Duh.
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just pointing this out, that pally with the crap stats, as you put it lol, will have saves similar to what ever character you have minus feats. also all PFS missions are optional not manditory.Incorrect. Failing to accomplish any of your PFS faction missions costs you fame, which is what you need to be eligible to better higher-level magic items and upgrades.
He can't use scrolls because his Wisdom is too low.
Pathfinder paladins use Charisma, not Wisdom.
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Okay so it sounds like playing a halfling paladin archer just might not be too optimal. I'm flat not going switch hitter on an already feat starved build so we're sticking with archer.
Human Paladin 12
Oath: Oath of Vengeance
Str:14 (5)
Dex:17 (7)
Con:12 (2)
Int:10(0)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Cha: 16 (10)
Feats: 1. PBS, PS 3. Rapid Shot 5. Deadly Aim 7. MultiShot 9. Weapon Focus 11. Improved Precise Shot
Skills: I'll end up focusing in on diplomacy and with a nice cha will have a pretty solid score and then I'll try to pick heal a bit and at least grab a knowledge. With favored class I can grab another skill point if I feel like I'm hurting each level otherwise I'll grab the hit point, but as others have mentioned this class is just MAD so something has to give.
Traits: Something to give +1 on Will then I'll find something random.
Thoughts: The human will give me a little more skill points and I'm not taking a hit on a strength reduction. I'm still planning on dumping wisdom because even with level 1 I'll have a +1 Will save and when Divine Grace kicks (a whooping level 2) it will be a +5 which is pretty darn decent and the other saves are going to be pretty fantastic.
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Okay so it sounds like playing a halfling paladin archer just might not be too optimal.
Actually they're more than optimal -- when they're smiting. And nobody's in the way.
(My halfling paladin is a rogue-multiclass switch-hitter.)
Your human build: You have 100% of your feats devoted to a single weapon. ...not going to work that well.
Underwater/darkness/fog encounter -- bow is worthless, so now what? You don't even have Power Attack despite a STR:14, or Improved Critical to massively multiply a falchion/power-attack/smite. What about your poor mount? No love there. If you thinking trudging around in plate at 15'/rnd is a horrible grind while you're dreaming of eventually galloping on your uber-horse at pal5, it's going to be a crushing let-down if it croaks every adventure.
As a paladin, every feat you have is precious, because you have so few of them. Every one of them has to "be in play" constantly.
- - - - -
Halfling paladin....
STR-08
DEX+17 (bump 4th)
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:08
CHA+16 (bump 8th, 12th)
Traits: Dangerously Curious, Freedom Fighter (Andoran Faction)
01 figh1 [dragoon] Mounted Combat, Skill Focus:Ride, Weapon Finesse
02 pala1
03 pala2 Piranha Strike
04 pala3
05 pala4 Two Weapon Fighting
06 pala5 [bond:mount:boar]
07 pala6 Indomitable Mount
08 pala7
09 pala8 Critical Focus
10 pala9
11 pal10 Agile Maneuvers
12 pal11 [Aura of Justice]
-- You are a brave paladin with high armor-class.
-- You have a stupidly tough smart side-kick happy to carry you around.
-- You have so much LoH self-healing that you effectively have more hitpoints than a CON:30 barbarian.
-- Massively destructive once acquiring +1/Agile weapons.
-- So get into melee and smash face with Agile weaponry and Piranha Strike. If melee is too far away, throw stuff or heal people.
Damn. That build makes me want to play a halfling paladin.
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Halfling mounted combat specialists are v good. I'd build way diff though:
Str: 14 (10)
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Dex: 12
Con: 12 (2)
Chr: 18 (10)
You're in full plate, no need to Str-nerf damage. I'd go straight pally; animal companion faster. Spirited Charge and rideby and such. It's a great build, but mostly for higher levels (really comes online @ 8, where with item you should have an 18 Str and your charge line is fully online). Weild lance obv, triple-damage charges. Medium mount means easy movement / charges in dungeons.
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If you're making a halfling, don't base the build on strength -- it's a self-nerfing concept. Fully 50% of your 20pt buy went into making one stat...a 14? That's a horrible deal when the same ten points would have bought you an 18 DEX. ...and Ride is a DEX skill -- but you're not spending a thing on DEX to bolster the one thing you need to keep your free mount-of-40'-move alive. (Nothing sucks worse than being a halfling in plate on foot.)Halfling mounted combat specialists are v good. I'd build way diff though:
Str: 14 (10)
Int: 12 (2)
Wis: 7 (-4)
Dex: 12
Con: 12 (2)
Chr: 18 (10)You're in full plate, no need to Str-nerf damage.
I'd go straight pally; animal companion faster. Spirited Charge and rideby and such.
The numeral uno Mounted feat (after Mounted Combat) is Indomitable Mount. Substitute mount's saves for Ride check as an immediate action? Oh, yeah, baby. No more douchebag sorcerers Confusing it or fragging it with empowered fireballs (the mount's Evasion only works if it makes the save).
The only way to make a STR 14 halfling paladin not suck on foot (well, he'll still suck anyway) is to Power Attack with a d4 falchion (which means he's giving up his shield, leaving a +10 armor/DEX combo overall with full-plate). The DEX 18 halfling wears mithral breastplate (same +10 combo, but more of it is versus touch) and duals a d4 Agile rapier and a d3 Agile kukri. DEX:18/TWF+Piranha has the same attack bonus at 4th-8th as STR:14/Power Attack. The STR build does more damage on a single attack, but is outclassed in full-attacks and suffers badly versus Scorching Rays and so forth, stinks lobbing Tanglefoot bags long distances, and has an abysmal 15' move on-foot in plate. Granted: STR:14 will be Hell-on-wheels with an Oathbow, but those are bloody expensive and a near-cap item in PFS -- and you're forfeiting the bow feats if you go Spirited Charge, or Aura of Justice if you take more than one fighter level to snag extra feats. (Not taking any fighter level, in particular dragoon, forfeits two feats -- the dragoon DEX build will have a +10 Ride Check versus the STR build at 9th+ level; and you're going to need that +10 when the baddie attacks your mount with a +35 to hit, which is exactly what he's going to do when he knows you'll suuuuck as a Spirited Charge pally left on foot after blowing a Mounted Combat check to negate the hit.)
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Taking all the feats for a Dex based fighter is very intensive. It you truly want to "Dex it up" you can take a scimitar and Dervish Dance to get damage "acceptable"; but having a Str helps. If you're running in with a finessable weapon, even after strike your damage output is terrible relative to a Str-base.
You're primarily charging, with a lance. When you can do this, it's (d6+3) * 2, at first level. Not awful, gets the job done. Eventually it triples, and gets really amazing once that power attack (which does +3 if you 2-hand, Pirannah doesn't do this) gets tripled. Also triples smite.
The Halfling is the choice, then, not because of the stat penalty (which is awful). It's just far easier to get charge lines in dungeons with riding dogs instead of horses. An outrider paladin is great without smite, and absurd with.... And easy to maneuver around and maximize the benefits of the animal companion
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Very cool mounted build I'll have to give that some thought. I'm not 100% sold on a paladin archer I was just trying to think of something different to play. I haven't had much experience with a mounted character tbh in any edition of d&d so a halfling rocking a boar is kinda neat. Mike, or anyone, have you had any experience playing a character in pfs similar to this? I've played it a bit pfs but most of my experience is honestly with their campaigns which obviously is quite a bit diffent then many modules linked together as well as no hard cap at 12 and you can count on a static group.
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I have in home games; it rocked, and may very well be my next character (as mounted is one approach I haven't taken in PFS; summoner, whirlwind tripper, and Evangalist archer are my chars there).
I used a riding dog for the record; let it attack first in hopes of a trip so my supercharged gets a +4 to hit. Boar is more resilient but less functional.
Only real compaint is sometimes it can be v hard to get those charge lines, however hard you try (diff terrain or just buddies in the way). And attacking without all the charge damage isn't nearly as exciting. In that regard being an archer is better, but there in PFS you're usually better as a ranger or zen archer (level 6 gets you improved precise for those classes, a godsend when many people don't account for your position as an archer).
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Taking all the feats for a Dex based fighter is very intensive.Huh? There's three -- and I freed up two from the dragoon level. Very acceptable.
It you truly want to "Dex it up" you can take a scimitar and Dervish Dance to get damage "acceptable";Restricts me to one non-light weapon.
If you're running in with a finessable weapon, even after strike your damage output is terrible relative to a Str-base.Look up the Agile weapon enhancement. Now imagine you're TWF/Piranha-striking. Heck, put on a 5,000gp Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, stick your chin up and grant the baddie his free AoO, then punch the stuffing out of him with your bare hands -- and who hasn't ever wanted to do that as a small race sick and tired of the short jokes?
but having a Str helps. You're primarily charging, with a lance.
Actually you're primarily wishing you could charge with your lance, but your mount isn't with you because you didn't have time for that full-round action after being surprised in the sewers, or it's dead because you couldn't defend it well with a sucky Ride score, or you can't charge because there are people in the way or the terrain is difficult, or you can't use your reach weapon because you're all crammed in like sardines. -- Welcome to PFS module corridor fights! Yay! ...Sailing away on a griffon? Oh, dream on, you silly thing you.
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So as a near final post just because I feel like we beat a paladin archer to death in this thread. If you had to pick a character off the wall class(not necessarily weak at all just not commonly played) what class would you play? I haven't had too much experience with playing PFS and would like to play a class that while not commonly played would still be surprisingly beneficial to a party. I'll research it and start a new thread on that, but am looking for a class that just isn't used often and lets work on optimizing that. I'll of course start up a journal of my experience with the class/race combo and let everyone know how it plays out (I'm scheduled on a bi-weekly basis but am playing the modules with 5+ other people it looks like, can't play more due to traveling with the job and brazilian jiujitsu which chunks up tons of my free time).
I appreciate everyone weighing in on this and hope we can link it with existing guides on exactly what it takes to make a successful PFS paladin archer since it seems like an increasingly common build.
In conclusion what class(es) would you play in a PFS game that seem to really pay off, yet aren't commonly played? I'd also be open to playing a new race that is currently undergoing playtest, but am unsure if you are allowed to play those in PFS.
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Going DEX with a melee paladin seems counter-intuitive to me: your spending a lot of feats to make it work -- and it just works "OK" in the long run. Mounted STR Halfling paladin works better than it seems like it would. What do you really need with a mounted Pally build?
Decent STR and good CHA:
15STR
12DEX
12CON
12INT
8WIS
16CHA
At level 4 with a +2 str belt you are at 18 STR -- which is more than adequate for fighting with two handed weapons.
Feats:
1) Fey Foundling
3) Mounted Combat
5) Ride By Attack
7) Spirited Charge
9) Wheeling Charge
Fey Foundling - especially when combined with the Halfling LoH favored class alternate option is REALLY nice for Halfling Paladins: at level 4 LoH is 2d6+6 HP, as a swift action (on yourself).
I've played this character to level 5 in PFS and it has been a lot of fun. Shining Knight archetype certainly helps with the mount!
Difficult terrain isn't too bad if your mount has the Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps feats. Wheeling charge (albeit not until level 9) helps with the allies-in-the-way problem. The character is very fun to play and has good versatility - and great durability. When I've got room to charge it is devastating. If I don't have room to charge, I can still move in pretty quickly and then stand toe to toe with most enemies (LOH makes me very durable) while putting out OK damage -- becomes very good damage when smiting. The dog companion is surprisingly tough at this level, It might be harder on him as we hit the higher levels, but he has decent saves and more HP than the Halfling does.
Other Halfling classes that might be good ideas for "different" kinds of PFS characters? Halfling Barbarian or Halfling Fighter -- or stick with the archer concept and check out the pure fighter (Halfling!) archery build. Size really isn't going to matter in the long run for a Fighter Archer (less damage, yes -- but significant? No).
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Going DEX with a melee paladin seems counter-intuitive to me: your spending a lot of feats to make it workSpending three on Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting and Piranha Strike with out-perform a MAD-stat build with three feats into Spirited Charge and without Power Attack. (You WILL be less effective in the level 1 to 5 game, but look upon it as a challenging price you willingly pay to be better in the long run.)
Mounted STR Halfling paladin works better than it seems like it would. What do you really need with a mounted Pally build?If you're a halfling in plate, you really need a mount that doesn't drop dead because your Mounted Combat Ride check sucks. I.e., dump your INT and dump your DEX for a lousy skills (you need skills in PFS, and maxing just two or three doesn't really work that well), and you self-screw yourself into 15' move on foot while the bad guys laugh and run past your sorry ass.
Decent STR and good CHA:
15STR
12DEX
12CON
12INT
8WIS
16CHA
And dead mount. Hope you enjoy walking in heavy armor with a bunch of worthless Mounted feats.
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Just as a random check what are peoples thoughts on a samurai? It's a new class with from what I can tell very little written about it in terms of optimization. A second would be a monk. Note: this would be for pfs
I have a DEX-based (19 stat at 1st) Tian human samurai who'll be TWFing. It's a complex build with eventual single-level dips into fighter[unarmed] and barbarian[urban].
Straight samurai12 STR/PA two-handing a nodachi or katana is not a bad way to go if you don't particularly care about your mount. Also works well multiclassed with barbarian to run around fast in light armor.
monk4[sohei]/samurai8 and monk3[zen archer]/figh1[dragoon]/samurai8 are also very versatile, and address the poor will save of the class. (Taking Boon Companion keeps your horse full-level.)
You really don't want to plan on less than eight levels of samurai, or else you number of challenges, and their power, won't be very much. While a melee class, samurai are end-loaded like a caster, so don't dip out too much.
sure, keep sending your 11 str, 10 dex, 10 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 10 cha paladins to missions and don't be surprised when they come back in coffins ;)Sorry - if you came to me with a Pally with that stat block build I would slap you round the head, tell you to stop being such a munchkin min-maxer and send you back to reallocate.
7 Int?
7 Wisdom?
How the hell does any self-respecting religion allow you to become a paladin who is too stuopid to read their holy book and even if he could, wouldn't understand what 'Lawful Good' behaviour was, couldn't remember his God's name on bad days and would regularly forget where he left his horse AND how to summon it!
Jeezz....
:) very silly comment as no stat-block point system allows for such low stat levels.
I did have a whole speech done here, but just editied to state the obvious. A paladin is a champion of good who is widely regarded with respect or fear (only occassionally indifference) by a variety of people.
ANYONE with WIS and INT so low would have been the village idiot and would never have been exalted to the status of Pally - and certainly could not avoid being ridiculed by anyone of a less than morally enlightened attitude for their utter stupidity.
The problem with the overly-focussed functional and stat-based approach I see so often on these boards is that you turn your character into a robot and forget about roleplay or even a hint of reasonable realism.
'Optimising' the character should not just be about stats - it should be about flavour. Some dungeon-bashers who don't bother to roleplay and just like rolling crits and squeezing extra bang for their buck out of ever rule have fun too I am sure, but they miss the point of a roleplay game.
It should NOT be a paper-based MMO.
I find it easy to 'suspend my disbelief' when it comes to dragons and elves, but cannot bring myself to believe someone with the mental faculties of a village idiot stays anything but the village idiot - marginalised and ridiculed in most cases and in a more enlightened society - merely pitied and taken care of.
Not exactly lead-from-the-front, inspire-the-troops, strike-fear-into-evil 'optimal' Paladin material yes?
Stop burying your head in stat-blocks and start thinking about the character!
How long do you think the player will continue playing this character if the GM takes a balanced and reasonable approach and;
(a) tells the player his character can't have any good ideas and occassioanlly must roleplay using his charisma and social station to push for a disasterous decision to be acted on...
(b) keeps telling the player every time he has a good idea that he isn't roleplaying his character correctly and must change his approach....
(c) has an encounter EVERY game after the forces of evil realise what a moron the Pally is where some demon/devil etc tries to trick him into doing something which makes him turn to anti-paladin, and the player is told to roleplay falling for even simple ruses....
A Pally (or any character) with these stats is a liability whichever way you slice it unless the GM treats his entire gameworld like an unchanging MMO server and every NPC as a mechanical fool designed to last three turns in a dungeon.
7 WIS makes perfect sense as a paladin -- you tend to attempt to solve things very impetuously. I.e., attacking that dragon head-on.
Fortunately, the deity who bestows your boons likes that about you, and has granted you compensation (Divine Grace).
In very limited circumstances and either/or low INT, low WIS character may be playable.
But the issue of BOTH stats being so low is what I am referring to - it's practically unplayable, if played in a manner truly representing that level of mental disadvantage.
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While she saw visions early (so she claims), she began her historical march at 16, ending with her capture at 18 and death at 19. She was fiercely loyal, and actually escaped her capture by jumping out of a 70 foot tower into a moat. Brave, loyal, loved, and really, really stupid... the perfect 7 int 7 Wis pally :).