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Wondering what people's take is. I'm going to have a Paladin in my upcoming group, and there is a high likelihood that said Paladin will find a hatchery of a kobold tribe they will be dealing with. Kobold's are Lawful-Evil. So does the Paladin kill the entire hatchery, with the idea that the babies might one day hurt innocents? Or does he leave the eggs in peace, because they are defenseless creatures?
This pre-supposes that babies are evil. Leaving aside the obvious joke, I find it utterly impossible to argue that any non-fiendish unborn child of any sort has an alignment. No mortal creature is inherently evil. Even "always evil" specifically doesn't mean 100%, just very near that.
Incorrect, some Outsiders do breed. Not all do, but some do. Otherwise you wouldn't have 1/2 Fiend template.
So, yeah, a Pally can smite them and not fall.
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A Paladin, as an exemplar of Good, Honour, etc. would not kill a helpless foe, regardless of it's alignment. To arbitrarily slaw being on the basis of their potential would also be a horribly evil act. Kobolds have the capacity for moral choice and thus are not like, say Demons(who are 'evil' intrinsically).
Indeed, if the Kobolds 'surrendered' the Paladin would have to accept that surrender. The idea that a Paladin is just a killing machine pointed at beings who are wearing the 'Evil' Team Jersey is a bit ridiculous and kind of removes much of the 'point' of the character and it's alignment restrictions in the first place. Being a Paladin is suppose to be hard, not in the moral choice you make, but that those choices make your life and the lives of others more difficult in the name of upholding higher ideals.
Or... he could try to raise them himself with the doctrine of his particular god. I think the idea of a paladin raising a bunch of kobolds in an attempt to save their souls would be awesome. Maybe he drops them off at a local monastery and sends a portion of his cash there every month for their care and well being.
Just to clear up confusion, the title wasn't meant to literally mean a use of the Smite Evil ability, I was using it more as a reference to utterly destroying an entire hatchery of kobold eggs. Looks like mixed reviews so far with a caveat that deity's statutes should provide a more clear answer.
I will say however if this is the DM's idea of what kind of moral and ethical issues he throws up only because there's a Paladin in the group, the only thing I'd look for in that campaign is the exit door.
That's the smell of a DM who's more interested in setting up a Paladin trap rather than actually exploring the issues of ethics and morality in a meaningful way.
Would there even be such a question if the character in question was a good fighter, or a good Wizard? If the game is typified by such kind of mindscrewing... I've got better things to do with my time.
Actually, in my opnion it would be even cooler and it IS meaningful if there is a Good Wizard or Fighter. None of them has the ability to discern good from evil, so, it would be even harder to know what to do. And I would certainly change some part of their alignments if they killed them all, be they evil or not, just for the fact that they did not know for certain.
I will say however if this is the DM's idea of what kind of moral and ethical issues he throws up only because there's a Paladin in the group, the only thing I'd look for in that campaign is the exit door.
That's the smell of a DM who's more interested in setting up a Paladin trap rather than actually exploring the issues of ethics and morality in a meaningful way.
Would there even be such a question if the character in question was a good fighter, or a good Wizard? If the game is typified by such kind of mindscrewing... I've got better things to do with my time.
Just so you know, it's a published adventure, not something I came up with. I'm also asking ahead of time, because I could see it going either way, and wanted to see if there was a real consensus amongst others. I never try to intentionally mess with anybody. Again, one of the reasons I'm asking first. So I have some frame of reference for when/if that conversation comes up.
Wiping out the Kobold Tribe is pretty much wiping out the hatchery too given they wouldn't have any protection from predators and the like. Just saying.
And there we have the rational answer.
Smite itself wouldn't come into the equation but very likely a typical non-evil adventurer would off the young/eggs as a mercy.
AM BABIES EVIL? IF AM SO, SMITE EVIL WITH LOVE AND KINDNESS. IF EVIL AM REMAINING, SMITE EVIL WITH SWORD. IF AM STILL EVIL, USE MORE SWORD.
*Those are eggs, them are not evil. Cool down, Paladin, job done, armed kobolds dead, do you still sense evil emanations, no, fine, fine, come, outside, some fresh air will do you good...*
As a player i´d never let a "my" pally sully his soul with something like that;)
@MendedWall12
Job, done? No, actually he has to make sure that those eggs don´t hatch unsupervised, to turn into raiding kobolds. IMO he has to report to his superiors and drop the problem in their lap, organise minders or found an orphanage.
Thats his job, too, i think, making the good decisions, nobody likes.
On the other hand, arguing that unsupervised by nobody or by surviving non-combatant or too well hidden kobolds, those kobolds WOULD assuredly become raiders of the most primitive kind, given their predatory nature a paladin might as well go through with it in rightheous anger.
AM BABIES EVIL? IF AM SO, SMITE EVIL WITH LOVE AND KINDNESS. IF EVIL AM REMAINING, SMITE EVIL WITH SWORD. IF AM STILL EVIL, USE MORE SWORD.*Those are eggs, them are not evil. Cool down, Paladin, job done, armed kobolds dead, do you still sense evil emanations, no, fine, fine, come, outside, some fresh air will do you good...*
As a player i´d never let a paladin sully his soul with something like that.
@MendedWall12
Job, done? No, actually he has to make sure that those eggs don´t hatch unsupervised, to turn into raiding kobolds. IMO he has to report to his superiors and drop the problem in their lap, organise minders or found an orphanage.
Thats his job, too, i think, making the good decisions, nobody likes.On the other hand, arguing that unsupervised by nobody or by surviving non-combatant or too well hidden kobolds, those kobolds WOULD assuredly become raiders of the most primitive kind, given their predatory nature a paladin might as well go through with it in rightheous anger.
Also very important: What´s your GM´s stance on this matter?
I'm the GM. :) My stance is really non-committal. I can see a good person making a decision to kill them as a mercy (since he/she just killed all their relatives), or protecting them, and, as many have pointed out, making sure they are raised by an orphanage that will foster kindness and compassion. Honestly I like the possible role-playing potential of, not just a paladin, but any good character saying we need to save these eggs and get them some place they can be taken care of.
I will say however if this is the DM's idea of what kind of moral and ethical issues he throws up only because there's a Paladin in the group, the only thing I'd look for in that campaign is the exit door.
That's the smell of a DM who's more interested in setting up a Paladin trap rather than actually exploring the issues of ethics and morality in a meaningful way.
Would there even be such a question if the character in question was a good fighter, or a good Wizard? If the game is typified by such kind of mindscrewing... I've got better things to do with my time.
Like so many other issues, your mileage may vary. Some folks like having a few moral quandaries thrown their way, while others detest such situations. The GM really has an obligation to keep an open mind in such situations instead of forcing his own morality down the throat of people who may reasonably disagree.
Presenting such a situation to "trap" the paladin would be rude, but some moral challenges are expected in a campaign that includes any strongly-aligned character. If someone runs a charismatic rogue, a GM should give him the chance to try some shenanigans; if he runs a ranger, he should include appropriate foes once in a while; and if he runs a paladin, he should give him a chance to prove he's a moral beacon.
@ OP - Probably not.
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Removed a post. Alignment threads are problematic enough without resorting to dead baby jokes.
Alignment thread shmignment thread. This thread is absurd. Either babies are Evil (in a universe where Evil is EVIL) and the Paladin can waste his smite killing things with 1hp or they aren't Evil and the whole world implodes because the Paladin can't help doing Evil in destroying a Goblin/Kobold/Orc/Drow/etc community unless he personally sees to it that all Goblin/Kobold/Orc/Drow infants are placed in good foster homes (and you know, not killed by the orphanage Adept). A dead baby joke perfectly highlights the patent absurdity of discussing smiting babies in a world where a race is Always Evil and moral ambiguities are not ambiguities but instead absolutes.
I mean, the topic doesn't even assume babies aren't Evil. The question is would Paladin's smite them. If they are Evil, the Paladin can Smite them if he feels like. The question is rhetorical. If they aren't Evil, then the thread fails to exist. The topic begs a dead baby joke.
You're right, I shouldn't have said that just because this is an alignment thread that's what makes dead baby jokes inappropriate. Dead baby jokes are inappropriate in any thread on these messageboards.
Clearly, we should discuss killing babies in the most serious tone possible.
You're right, I shouldn't have said that just because this is an alignment thread that's what makes dead baby jokes inappropriate. Dead baby jokes are inappropriate in any thread on these messageboards.Clearly, we should discuss killing babies in the most serious tone possible.
That reminds me, I have some Angel to catch up on ...
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I want to point out that kobold eggs cannot radiate evil to a paladins detect evil, non-cleric humanoids do not radiate evil even if their alignment would make them do so.
That being said, I don't think paladins should be disregarding sentient life so callously regardless of if they would ping on a detect evil or not.
In the unlikely event that this isn't trolling, type "paladin killing orc babies" into Google and read at least two decades worth of arguing. I assure you that no new insights will be raised in this thread.
Now if only there were some way to move this thread there ...
In the unlikely event that this isn't trolling, type "paladin killing orc babies" into Google and read at least two decades worth of arguing. I assure you that no new insights will be raised in this thread.
Note to self: Check Google first. Thanks MiB.
Also, honestly, I wasn't trolling. I really wanted to see whether or not there was a consensus on whether or not kobold's were evil before they were born. I guess that's a philosophical argument more than an alignment one.
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Wondering what people's take is. I'm going to have a Paladin in my upcoming group, and there is a high likelihood that said Paladin will find a hatchery of a kobold tribe they will be dealing with. Kobold's are Lawful-Evil. So does the Paladin kill the entire hatchery, with the idea that the babies might one day hurt innocents? Or does he leave the eggs in peace, because they are defenseless creatures?
There are still a lot of variables for an answer, and even then, there's not really a right/wrong.
What god is the paladin serving?
What is evil in this campaign world?
Are kobolds always evil in this campaign world?
Have paladins killed helpless being before? What was the situation in those cases?
This isn't anything new, and people have debated over this for decades. People have also tried to use real life examples like "would it be evil to kill Hitler as a baby?"
And finally, a lot depends on the players and this group's style. A hack n' slash because they want to get to the action? Or do they like debating philosophies in and out of character?
There's a lot of variables, but if it was a paladin of Sarenrae, as the DM I would send dreams that imply the paladin should try a different way first. If it was a paladin of another god, then perhaps it would be the right thing to do.
First of all chances are that the paladin won't have anyone to turn the eggs to, if that's the case then i have to say the following:
1) Evil is objective not subjective in the game
2) Those kobolds are evil
So unless you have a paladin of shelyn then i say go ahead and kill them, in fact there are a couple of cases that i would have the paladin fall for not killing them.
Reaper Miniatures
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In Pathfinder, creatures with less than 5 HD that are also not undead or outsiders do not detect as Evil, using the ability/spell Detect Evil.
Does this solve the situation? No. But it does give your Paladin some leeway in refusing to kill babies, as they are not detectably and demonstrably evil.
Of course, that also means most 1HD Kobolds also do not detect sucessfully as evil...
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In Pathfinder, creatures with less than 5 HD that are also not undead or outsiders do not detect as Evil, using the ability/spell Detect Evil.
Does this solve the situation? No. But it does give your Paladin some leeway in refusing to kill babies, as they are not detectably and demonstrably evil.
Of course, that also means most 1HD Kobolds also do not detect sucessfully as evil...
and thank god for that. Muddying up the detect evil waters was one of the best things Pathfinder did.
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Killing kobold babies as a paladin. Hrm.
"A painful choice, friends. Merisiel, no, we do not stabbystab the kobold babies quite yet, put that thing down please."
"It is a question not only of morality, but also of ethics. How firmly do we believe? These creatures are, to all known purposes, inherently corrupt. Whether by their society or by their soul itself is unknown, save that a couple rare handfuls have gone on to become adventurers. I could strike them down now, and know that no further evil will come from them. I could deliver them to an orphanage, and pray that none of them are truly inherently corrupted, thus risking the lives of many innocents."
The paladin takes a deep breath, furrows his brow, then nods.
"Or I can leave them as they are. If there is one among their kind who is spiritual enough to be led here, to this place, to save them...then they have earned that redemption, regardless of how they turn out. If their own capricious deities turn a blind eye to them, then they will die as surely as mine own sword could have killed them. Ever do I put my faith in the gods even as my sword strikes those who would do harm...and so then too shall I put my faith in the gods in this case. If one can be redeemed from this hatchery, so mote it be. And if not...then our task has already been accomplished, and nature will take its' rightful course."
"Let us be off, my friends."
This sounds like a great opportunity for a holy gun to use itterative smites.
Greg
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In Pathfinder, creatures with less than 5 HD that are also not undead or outsiders do not detect as Evil, using the ability/spell Detect Evil.
Does this solve the situation? No. But it does give your Paladin some leeway in refusing to kill babies, as they are not detectably and demonstrably evil.
Of course, that also means most 1HD Kobolds also do not detect sucessfully as evil...
Actually, I've seen a lot of people make that argument. This is true of Detect Evil, but not of Detect Evil, the spell-like ability of the Paladin. The paladin ability has a special use:
A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
This is a fundamentally different effect from the actual Detect Evil spell, allowing you to actually determine individual alignment (as well as determining the presence or absence of an alignment-based aura).
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All babies are evil, even pug babies.
If something can't talk, act on its own or basically even think, I'd say it's not any alignment - maybe N. Evil creatures are maybe equal parts nature and nurture so who knows.
Wondering what people's take is. I'm going to have a Paladin in my upcoming group, and there is a high likelihood that said Paladin will find a hatchery of a kobold tribe they will be dealing with. Kobold's are Lawful-Evil. So does the Paladin kill the entire hatchery, with the idea that the babies might one day hurt innocents? Or does he leave the eggs in peace, because they are defenseless creatures?
Pally or no, you're a psychotic murdering adventurer. Kill em all let their gods work out the rest.