Tornado if I recall correctly AM BARBARIANS mount didn't take too kindly to it. Then it just turned into a wait until his rage expires and kill appropriately.I'm just trying to figure out what druid spell was so important.So the sorcerer didn't beat the wizard, the UMD skill did. Something any character can do. For that matter wouldn't a druid be more suited to beat AM BARBARIAN based on the above facts?When people claim that the wizard has a wider variety of spells, I can't help but recall that the only arcanist who beat AM BARBARIAN in the recent thought experiment was a Sorcerer (wizards kept getting slaughtered) and that sorcerer did it by casting a spell the wizard couldn't (a Druid spell via UMD).Link please? I must have missed this and I'd be excited to see the back and forth.
That's only if it's a generic dire bat. Assuming the mount was a dragon, or a bat with class levels, or even a Boon'd animal companion mount that was polymorphed into a dire bat, or a MLP:FIM pony of some sort, it mattered much less.
The only schrodinger part of AM is figuring out what the heck BATTY BAT actually is. The only thing we can be sure of is that he calls it BATTY BAT and assumes it's some kind of bat. I can't be more specific, the guy has a -2 to every knowledge check and can't tell a dire bat from a pony from a dragon if he had to.
How do you figure this? You assuming they square off like the old west?I have a sorcerer with 185 hit points right now at lvl 14. He'll end up with close to 300 hit points. He has SR 14+level. He is immune to crits/precision based damage. He has a 28 Con.
At 16th level he'll have a DR 5/- and Blindsight 60 feet and immunity to acid. He can shapechage into a dragon. That will give him well over 300 hit points while still casting.
So tell me again how no sorcerer could beat a save or die wizard (diviner)?
You pro-wizard guys really don't know what sorcerer's are capable of. You don't play them or design them, so you sort of don't realize how powerful a sorcerer can become.
If you're facing my sorcerer at lvl 20, you're facing an SR of 34, over 250 hit points easy (closer to 300), and Blindsight 60 feet that works past your mind blank or invisibility combos. Your mirror images, your illusions, and can withstand your best Save or Die spells with an incredibly high fort save who will also bieng using some of the samer hammer spells right back at you as he takes your initial onslaught and shrugs.
I'm not saying a sorcerer can slam dunk a wizard or vice versa. But you have to understand that sorcerer's have some nightmare builds as well that if the take full advantage of them, you're not going to have an easy time beating them.
Sounds like a fun, strong character. Still loses.
Post a specific build, I'll do the same.Level 14: I'll give you the edge having the even level.
But more or less I'll be at +21 init.
Thats a great beefy Con. So we won't hit it. Hows your reflex save?
Lets start off with a DC 30 Dazing SnapDragonFireworks. We're not nearly done, but I figure that that ought to be enough to end the conversation.Once you're dazed for seven rounds (oh and I can repeat that every round as a move action) I'll summon lowly lantern archons (or let my familiar do it) for the win.
Still, pretty impressive sorc...
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Did you penetrate my SR of 25 at lvl 14? Once again I ask do you expect to be squaring off like the old west, where I stand there dazed doing nothing while you kill me? How about I have a contingency ready to port me to safety when I get to a certain hit point level? Next time I show up, I used limited wish to make myself immune to snapdrgon fireworks by casting spell immunity?
Coming up with some combo anyone can use including a sorcerer is a pretty worthless way to win a battle. Ooh, you use an over-powered dazing combination I can use too to win the battle. So all I have to is make one save, target you with the exactly same set up, and you're done too? Right?
Don't come at me with combinations that aren't necessarily going to work. I have Dazing spell on that character as well. You going to make the DC 26 reflex save? So let's say I make my save, I daze you. Then you're dead right? Yeah right. I do a whole heck of a lot more damage than you do, so you'll die a whole heck of a lot faster than I will.
Giving you a build and seeing if you can top it is ridiculous. We can go back and forth on builds. All you're going do is attempt to jack up your initiative to win and all I'm going to do is set up my contingency to leave the fight or if I survive your onslaught leave the fight to set up better.
You're making it seem like we're going to square off old west style and first one to cast a spell's going to win. That's not how it works or has ever worked save in the many mindless battles that happen in a module where it says "Monster fights to the death".
My sorcerer isn't going to fight to the death. My sorcerer isn't going to give you any advantages. My sorcerer isn't going to stand there if you attack him or summon a bunch of baddies on him. He's going to leave and set up as well.
I love these "well I do this and you're dead" tactics. It doesn't work like that. If it were that easy, no game would last that long because every DM can plan the whole "Well, I do this and your dead" tactics better than anyone else. Even a fighter would plan better if going against a wizard than to stand out in the open, wait to lose initiative, and die. Give me a break.
Post a build so you can come up with the exact build to counter it. And I can tell you to post a wizard build, so I can up with the perfect sorcerer build to counter it? Is that what we're supposed to do?
I'm telling you that sorcerers and wizards are fairly equal. They both have some optimal builds that make them very powerful. You're talking about sorcerers and wizards going against each other in a duel, which still is nowhere near a slam dunk.
But let's also see your diviner with his snapdragon fireworks build in a module versus my sorcerer in a module. See how long you survive compared to how long I survive. See if you can withstand all the fort save attacks, fear attacks, getting focused fired by an enemy, and all that happens in the course of a module versus how long I'll survive with my huge number of hit points, SR, immunity to crit, and the like.
Wizards seem to have one build to win the day. Diviner. I can build an effective sorcerer using several different bloodlines. So can every wizard build besides diviner beat the sorcerer? Or should every wizard that wants to be on par with the sorcerer be a diviner? So you're bascially saying only the diviner wizard can beat the sorcerer?
Is that's what you're saying?
None of which actually matters. What matters is that it was demonstrated that the Sorcerer's superior access to spells compared to the wizard allowed it to succeed at something that kept slaughtering wizards.
I guess beating 1/2 of the weakest possible iteration of something that wizards can't beat any of period is technically a victory, but you were also casting from a wand/scroll using UMD, which a Wizard would have at least 20 ranks in by that point if they focused in.
And have more skill points.
I am unsure what this actually proves.
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None of which actually matters. What matters is that it was demonstrated that the Sorcerer's superior access to spells compared to the wizard allowed it to succeed at something that kept slaughtering wizards.I guess beating 1/2 of the weakest possible iteration of something that wizards can't beat any of period is technically a victory, but you were also casting from a wand/scroll using UMD, which a Wizard would have at least 20 ranks in by that point if they focused in.
And have more skill points.
I am unsure what this actually proves.
It proves that if AM BARBIARIAN goes up against a million wizards, you get a million dead wizards. If he goes up against a million sorcerers, you get 999,990 dead sorcerers and one dead barbarian.
Casty win?!?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It proves that if AM BARBIARIAN goes up against a million wizards, you get a million dead wizards. If he goes up against a million sorcerers, you get 999,990 dead sorcerers and one dead barbarian.
Casty win?!?
I thougth it proved that a bard is a better sorcerer than a sorcerer since he a) will have more skill points and b) He can cast the Druid spell with the same UMD skill. :-)
None of which actually matters. What matters is that it was demonstrated that the Sorcerer's superior access to spells compared to the wizard allowed it to succeed at something that kept slaughtering wizards.I guess beating 1/2 of the weakest possible iteration of something that wizards can't beat any of period is technically a victory, but you were also casting from a wand/scroll using UMD, which a Wizard would have at least 20 ranks in by that point if they focused in.
And have more skill points.
I am unsure what this actually proves.
It proves that if AM BARBIARIAN goes up against a million wizards, you get a million dead wizards. If he goes up against a million sorcerers, you get 999,990 dead sorcerers and one dead barbarian.
Casty win?!?
One dead BATTY BAT. We're still not actually sure what happens after the fact.
To cast that particular spell from a scroll using UMD is a DC 29 or DC 30 (assuming the arcanist has a Wis of 15).
That gives the 20th level wizard a 50% chance of failure.
Yes, the wizard can spend feats to improve it, but spending his feats this way carries a heavy opportunity cost. It is that heavy opportunity cost that I'm pointing out.
Oooh. Well, I suppose that's a fair point.
As for Bards, this thread is comparing wizards to sorcerers. If you want to compare bards to sorcerers, please create a different thread.
BARDS AM BROKEDICULOUS. AM LIKE NEW WIZARDS, WHICH AM TO SAY LIKE OLD BARBARIANS. CLEARLY AM HIGH TIER.
If you'd like to run the thought experiment to see what happens as the Barbarian runs out of rage, we can do that.
...Barbarian activates ring of spell turning his buddy used to wear and walks off to get a new bat? He can definitely outspeed the sorcerer and doesn't actually ever have to stop to sleep, as previously established. Walking off to Crazy Bill's Discount BATTY BAT Emporium at that point is certainly an option.
Walking off to Crazy Bill's Discount BATTY BAT Emporium at that point is certainly an option.Plus, AM doesn't know the difference between a dire bat and a pony. And let's face it, they sell ponies everywhere...
It'd have to be a flying pony.
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It'd have to be a flying pony.Walking off to Crazy Bill's Discount BATTY BAT Emporium at that point is certainly an option.Plus, AM doesn't know the difference between a dire bat and a pony. And let's face it, they sell ponies everywhere...
Well once the tornado spell hit (you know, the one that makes a Druid a better sorcerer than the Sorcerer) wouldn't it be a flying pony by default?
Well once the tornado spell hit (you know, the one that makes a Druid a better sorcerer than the Sorcerer) wouldn't it be a flying pony by default?It'd have to be a flying pony.Walking off to Crazy Bill's Discount BATTY BAT Emporium at that point is certainly an option.Plus, AM doesn't know the difference between a dire bat and a pony. And let's face it, they sell ponies everywhere...
Yes, but it generally needs to fly under its own power first. Otherwise I couldn't charge without a tornado.
...
I think I just had an idea more awesome than Spell Sundering a plane of existence, guys.
So the sorcerer didn't beat the wizard, the UMD skill did. Something any character can do. For that matter wouldn't a druid be more suited to beat AM BARBARIAN based on the above facts?When people claim that the wizard has a wider variety of spells, I can't help but recall that the only arcanist who beat AM BARBARIAN in the recent thought experiment was a Sorcerer (wizards kept getting slaughtered) and that sorcerer did it by casting a spell the wizard couldn't (a Druid spell via UMD).Link please? I must have missed this and I'd be excited to see the back and forth.Only a character with a high enough charisma could have had a high enough UMD to pull it off. A sorcerer would have that charisma. A wizard wouldn't (without hurting the wizard build elsewhere). I don't understand why this fact wasn't immediately obvious to you. Can you explain?
As for comparing Druids to Sorcerers, that's a different thread. This thread is comparing wizards and sorcerers.
The entirety of your arguement is based aroud the fact that a druid spell beat a barbarian. Ignoring the fact that I have no idea what druid spell could be so important;
It's fesabile for a wizard to have a higher UMD than a sorcerer. It's less common, but not unreasonable.
So i repeat, the sorcerer didnt beat the barbarian. The UMD skill did, which anyone can have.
Further, no where in the rules does it say a wizard can't have a high chariama. It's less common, but not unreasonable.
in summary, based on your scenerio, what beat the barbarian had nothing to do with any particular class. Only a high UMD score, which a high CHA contributes to, and nothing prevents any class from having both of these things.
Your arguement is invalid.
I don't understand how these facts are not immediately obvious to you. Though in the past your sense of logical progression has been skewed to disregard facts in favor of whatever tenuous arguement you were making.
If you'd like to run the thought experiment to see what happens as the Barbarian runs out of rage, we can do that....Barbarian activates ring of spell turning his buddy used to wear and walks off to get a new bat? He can definitely outspeed the sorcerer and doesn't actually ever have to stop to sleep, as previously established. Walking off to Crazy Bill's Discount BATTY BAT Emporium at that point is certainly an option.
I suspect a rage-less barbarian would do quite well against a sorcerer who has exhausted their spells.
Oh right, I remember you. You were the guy who flunked out of metamagic 101 by stating putting heighten on top of dazing made a 2nd level spell have a 6th level spell dc instead of a third, and also took spell perfection multiple times, right?
Aerylinth, we found you a friend!
When people claim that the wizard has a wider variety of spells, I can't help but recall that the only arcanist who beat AM BARBARIAN in the recent thought experiment was a Sorcerer (wizards kept getting slaughtered) and that sorcerer did it by casting a spell the wizard couldn't (a Druid spell via UMD).
Wizards have to invest a considerable amount of their WBL on their spell books (including protecting their spell books from destruction/theft). Sorcerers don't.
Wizards have nice stuff (skill points, highest level spells a level earlier), but anyone who knows how to build an optimized sorcerer can match an optimized wizard.
Nonsense on all points. Go read the thread again. My posts on wizards to beat AM BARBARIAN were neither countered. Merely claiming in cavespeak that you win does not make it so.
Second, my typical Divinitation wizard buys *no* extra spells. Simply not required.
And again - I'll take you up on your optimization challenge. Build me a sorceror that matches my 11th level wizard build submitted in the am barbarian thread, or the dazing wizard build I presented in RavingDork's blaster thread.
Seconded
Stuff...
You read all the words, but seemed to miss the point entirely.
ANY CLASS CAN DO WHAT THE SORCERER DID. All they did was use an item via a skill. A skill which anyone can have. The fact that he was a sorcerer played no part in his winning via using a druid spell. A rogue/barbarian/bard/sor/wiz/summoner/commoner/aristocrat/ dirtfarmer/etc could have accomplished the same feat if so built. Technically a high charisma isn't even necessary (though it is helpful).
Your using logical incongruity based on circumstance. You should go into politics.
Stuff...You read all the words, but seemed to miss the point entirely.
ANY CLASS CAN DO WHAT THE SORCERER DID. All they did was use an item via a skill. A skill which anyone can have. The fact that he was a sorcerer played no part in his winning via using a druid spell. A rogue/barbarian/bard/sor/wiz/summoner/commoner/aristocrat/ dirtfarmer/etc could have accomplished the same feat if so built. Technically a high charisma isn't even necessary (though it is helpful).
Your using logical incongruity based on circumstance. You should go into politics.
Technically any build willing to invest 18000 gp could do it. INT ioun stone with a +10 competence item. Instant +30.
Technically any build willing to invest 18000 gp could do it. INT ioun stone with a +10 competence item. Instant +30.Stuff...You read all the words, but seemed to miss the point entirely.
ANY CLASS CAN DO WHAT THE SORCERER DID. All they did was use an item via a skill. A skill which anyone can have. The fact that he was a sorcerer played no part in his winning via using a druid spell. A rogue/barbarian/bard/sor/wiz/summoner/commoner/aristocrat/ dirtfarmer/etc could have accomplished the same feat if so built. Technically a high charisma isn't even necessary (though it is helpful).
Your using logical incongruity based on circumstance. You should go into politics.
I don't know what the DC is, but all classes have access to UMD and the skill focus feat, for no money, but if you throw in items then it's even easier.
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Stuff...You read all the words, but seemed to miss the point entirely.
ANY CLASS CAN DO WHAT THE SORCERER DID.
Which is why using the 'am barbarian' thread, the bard is a better sorcerer than the sorcerer.* :-)
*
Stuff...You read all the words, but seemed to miss the point entirely.
ANY CLASS CAN DO WHAT THE SORCERER DID.
Which is why using the 'am barbarian' thread, the bard is a better sorcerer than the sorcerer.* :-)
*** spoiler omitted **
+1, especially to the spoiler.
If 18k gold is a nerf for a 20th level character's wbl of over 800k...
You know what I don't need to make this point. It makes itself.
Stuff...You read all the words, but seemed to miss the point entirely.
ANY CLASS CAN DO WHAT THE SORCERER DID.
Which is why using the 'am barbarian' thread, the bard is a better sorcerer than the sorcerer.* :-)
*** spoiler omitted **
No vein popping here. I just ignore trolls and stupid posts.
The fact is that not every class can reliably make a DC 30 UMD check without nerfing themselves in their core strengths. Anybody who says otherwise is either a troll or dumb as dirt.
Your arguement is invalid
20th level character (any)
20 skill points + skill focus UMD = DC 30 with a roll of 4 or more.
If UMD is a class skill (perhaps through a trait) make that a 1.
That is with a charisma of 10 or more and no gold investment.
Sounds pretty reliable to me.
and do refrain from calling people names instead of presenting evidence supporting your claim. It undermines your credibility.
Yes, 18k is a nerf. Any time you make a character's core strength less than it could be it's a nerf.If 18k gold is a nerf for a 20th level character's wbl of over 800k...
You know what I don't need to make this point. It makes itself.
We actually agree on that. here's how you do it with no gold.
20th level character (any)
20 skill points + skill focus UMD = DC 30 with a roll of 4 or more.
If UMD is a class skill (perhaps through a trait) make that a 1.
That is with a charisma of 10 or more and no gold investment.
Sounds pretty reliable to me.
Yes, 18k is a nerf. Any time you make a character's core strength less than it could be it's a nerf.If 18k gold is a nerf for a 20th level character's wbl of over 800k...
You know what I don't need to make this point. It makes itself.
Unless I redefine my character's core strength to also include 'can use any magic item, no exceptions,' in which case it then no longer becomes a nerf and instead becomes a contributing factor to his core strength.
Those things are, after all, opinion.
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Spending a feat on skill focus, for a wizard, has an opportunity cost of a feat that can't be spent on school specialization, improved familiar, or another feat which synergies with the Wizard's core strength.
Your arguement is nonsense, but I'll roll with it.
By your logic, is it a valid choice if that wizard is a half elf who got it free?
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No vein popping here. I just ignore trolls and stupid posts.
+1!
BWWAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
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No vein popping here. I just ignore trolls and stupid posts.
The fact is that not every class can reliably make a DC 30 UMD check without nerfing themselves in their core strengths. Anybody who says otherwise is either a troll or dumb as dirt.
It must be hard ignoring your own posts then.
Of coruse as mentioned above, the bard can, so can the rogue.
So you're spending 1/2 your skill points on UMD? What else? Spellcraft? Knowlege Planes? Knowlege Arcana?
Post wizards at 8th level, 12th level, and 16th level. I'll post sorcerers at the same level. The goal will not be to see which character would win in a fight. Rather, the goal will be to see which character could last the longest through a series of battles with various monsters, which characters will be most beneficial out of combat, and which character can best handle a unexpected encounters.
There will be no vote. Everyone who reads the thread can simply make up their own mind. We will be restricted to official Paizo rules listed at d20prd. Crafting does not circumvent WBL. You will be expected to protect your spellbook against harm. You will need to purchase all spells beyond the two you get for free at each level as scrolls. We will take a -0, -2, and -6 penalty to leadership.
A) You're not worth that a much of my time.
B) Wouldn't it be a better use of time for you to actually give a rebuttal to what's actually being talked about?
I've never played a sorcerer that got less than 6 skill points per level.No vein popping here. I just ignore trolls and stupid posts.
The fact is that not every class can reliably make a DC 30 UMD check without nerfing themselves in their core strengths. Anybody who says otherwise is either a troll or dumb as dirt.
It must be hard ignoring your own posts then.
Of coruse as mentioned above, the bard can, so can the rogue.
So you're spending 1/2 your skill points on UMD? What else? Spellcraft? Knowlege Planes? Knowlege Arcana?
How is it that a sorcerer who invests heavily into INT for skill points not hurting himself elsewhere in his build, but a wizard who invests in CHA is?
Only a character with a high enough charisma could have had a high enough UMD to pull it off. A sorcerer would have that charisma. A wizard wouldn't (without hurting the wizard build elsewhere).
Can anyone post what the heck happened in the said combat and which spell was used with which Sorcerer build?
I keep hearing about it but noone ever managed to post anything besides RUMORS
It would if the "points" you raised made even a little bit of sense.
B) Wouldn't it be a better use of time for you to actually give a rebuttal to what's actually being talked about?
My points are perfectly clear to everyone except you. That's because you refuse to acknowledge that you're wrong. Though it is possible that you truly don't realize it, in which case i recommend remedial reading courses or logic 101.
As usual your posts have spiraled into blithering nonsense that you fail to recognize.
Let me ask you this;
Is it remotely possible in the greate wide universe that perhaps in some teeny tiny minor way you may have made a little error? If no, congratulations You're a super computer.
The sorcerer could reliably cast a 5th level spell not on his spell list from a scroll without a feat and without nerfing himself. That's what the sorcerer did. If one of these classes requires a feat to reliably cast a 5th level spell not on his spell list and without nerfing himself, then that class is NOT doing the same thing the sorcerer is doing. I, also, notice that the same sorcerer can reliably cast 9th level Druid spells just as well (especially if he takes skill focus in UMD). Your wizard can't do that without nerfing himself.Its irrelevant whether another class (other than the wizard) can do it anyway as this thread is comparing the sorcerer to the wizard, NOT the bard to the sorcerer. If there were a thread which compared the bard to the sorcerer, things like the fact that the bard doesn't cast as many spells per day would be discussed.
Trait: Dangerously Curious: Class Skill and +1 on checks for UMD.
Skill Items: Skillbonus^2*100 up tp +10. +10 = 10k.14th level wizard_
14 ranks
3 class bonus
1 trait bonus
4 Cha bonus (14 + 4 cloak)
10 item bonus
= +32
UMD DC for 9th caster level Scroll: 29