Wizard vs. Sorc


Advice

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Just a thought but I think the best familiar is a Compsognathus with a permanent Anthropomorphic Animal spell on it. That way it gives you a +4 initiative, has hands, can speak and it can light its own cigarettes. All that without a feat.


Maddigan wrote:


S: 20 (+5) Saves: Fort +21 Ref: +13 Will: +13
D: 16 (+3)
C: 28 (+9) (10)
I: 10
W: 10
Ch: 24 (+7) (5) (+2 human bonus)

Hps: 216 (16d6+160) average rolls.

Ability bonus for level: +2 con, +2 cha

Items:
Robe of Arcane Heritage (Boost bloodline powers by 4 levels)
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Headband of Alluring Charisma +6
cloak of resistance +5

How in heavens name do you get those permanent Ability Scores?

Or do they include a lot of 1min/lvl spells which you won't have active?

It would mean
14
10
20
10
10
14

as your array?

rat_ bastard wrote:
Just a thought but I think the best familiar is a Compsognathus with a permanent Anthropomorphic Animal spell on it. That way it gives you a +4 initiative, has hands, can speak and it can light its own cigarettes. All that without a feat.

The best familiar is a Nosoi ;)


Alienfreak wrote:

rat_ bastard wrote:
Just a thought but I think the best familiar is a Compsognathus with a permanent Anthropomorphic Animal spell on it. That way it gives you a +4 initiative, has hands, can speak and it can light its own cigarettes. All that without a feat.
The best familiar is a Nosoi.

I don't see it, it does not grant an initiative bonus, it costs a feat and it can't light its own cigarettes. At best it can use its haunting song to distract the clerk while it steals a carton of cigarettes, but it would not have the fine motor skills needed to pack down a pack or light its own, so you are constantly going to have to light your nic fitting familiar's cigarettes.

Trust me, when it comes to nicotine dependent helper animals you are vastly better off with a hilarious wise cracking dinosaur than freaking four winged bird.


rat_ bastard wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:

rat_ bastard wrote:
Just a thought but I think the best familiar is a Compsognathus with a permanent Anthropomorphic Animal spell on it. That way it gives you a +4 initiative, has hands, can speak and it can light its own cigarettes. All that without a feat.
The best familiar is a Nosoi.

I don't see it, it does not grant an initiative bonus, it costs a feat and it can't light its own cigarettes. At best it can use its haunting song to distract the clerk while it steals a carton of cigarettes, but it would not have the fine motor skills needed to pack down a pack or light its own, so you are constantly going to have to light your nic fitting familiar's cigarettes.

Trust me, when it comes to nicotine dependent helper animals you are vastly better off with a hilarious wise cracking dinosaur than freaking four winged bird.

It can write with its claws. So a lighter should be even easier to handle, no?


Alienfreak wrote:
rat_ bastard wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:

rat_ bastard wrote:
Just a thought but I think the best familiar is a Compsognathus with a permanent Anthropomorphic Animal spell on it. That way it gives you a +4 initiative, has hands, can speak and it can light its own cigarettes. All that without a feat.
The best familiar is a Nosoi.

I don't see it, it does not grant an initiative bonus, it costs a feat and it can't light its own cigarettes. At best it can use its haunting song to distract the clerk while it steals a carton of cigarettes, but it would not have the fine motor skills needed to pack down a pack or light its own, so you are constantly going to have to light your nic fitting familiar's cigarettes.

Trust me, when it comes to nicotine dependent helper animals you are vastly better off with a hilarious wise cracking dinosaur than freaking four winged bird.

It can write with its claws. So a lighter should be even easier to handle, no?

Hey, I missed that, you are right.

still wise cracking dinosaur is pretty cool right?


Alienfreak wrote:


How in heavens name do you get those permanent Ability Scores?

Or do they include a lot of 1min/lvl spells which you won't have active?

It would mean
14
10
20
10
10
14

as your array?

Ah ok I see... Pit Touched via Feat... thats nasty :/

But any particular reason you take Aberrant as your normal bloodline and not Pit Touched instaed? If you want Long Arms you can take this as your heritage feat?


Trinam wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
If this is the new AM BARBARIAN thread...

It isn't. Someone just tried to use the part where someone successfully killed BATTY BAT as proof that Sorcerers are better than Wizards.

Then cp hopped in and... well, here we are.

Actually, that particular encounter was used to demonstrate the value of UMD. No one has argued that sorcerers are better than wizards, only that they are equal.

While a 5th level spell cast by a 20th level character isn't notable, the fact is that a 20th level character is more dependent on 8th and 9th level spells. To cast those from scrolls with UMD is a DC of 36 or 38.

While I agree that skill bonuses from magic items are so cheap ass to be laughably broken, it's still a cost the sorcerer doesn't need to pay. A 20th level sorcerer can make a 38DC UMD roll in his sleep.

The Exchange

LilithsThrall wrote:
While I agree that skill bonuses from magic items are so cheap ass to be laughably broken, it's still a cost the sorcerer doesn't need to pay. A 20th level sorcerer can make a 38DC UMD roll in his sleep.

So can a 20th level wizard's familiar. And I can craft the scroll at half cost.

20 skill ranks + 3 for class + 6 for evolved familiar racial skill bonus, +4 for familiar feat skill focus. + 2 for stat.

And if you're going to argue that +2 item bonus (400 gold?) is a nerf at 20th level - well just remember those scrolls are costing me half cost.

The Exchange

Maddigan wrote:


Anyone up for that?

Because taking a wizard build, acting as though both classes are going to square off old west style, then using a single spell combination avaiable to both classes, is not going to tell you jack squat about which class is stronger or better.

Absolutely. I suggest each challenger go with 3 11th level assistants. I suggest the 3 assistants to give the sorceror a small bonus.

I suggest 4 modules. Two of them done at 12th level, 2 done at 13th level -


cp wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
While I agree that skill bonuses from magic items are so cheap ass to be laughably broken, it's still a cost the sorcerer doesn't need to pay. A 20th level sorcerer can make a 38DC UMD roll in his sleep.

So can a 20th level wizard's familiar. And I can craft the scroll at half cost.

20 skill ranks + 3 for class + 6 for evolved familiar racial skill bonus, +4 for familiar feat skill focus. + 2 for stat.

And if you're going to argue that +2 item bonus (400 gold?) is a nerf at 20th level - well just remember those scrolls are costing me half cost.

Putting aside, for the moment, that the sorcerer's cohort can provide him with scrolls for half cost and that the sorcerer can have the same familiar build the wizard does, how is it exactly that your familiar has a +3 class bonus to UMD?

The Exchange

LilithsThrall wrote:


Putting aside, for the moment, that the sorcerer's cohort can provide him with scrolls for half cost and that the sorcerer can have the same familiar build the wizard does, how is it exactly that your familiar has a +3 class bonus to UMD?

Skill rules for outsiders says you may designate a certain number of skills as class skills.


LilithsThrall wrote:
cp wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
While I agree that skill bonuses from magic items are so cheap ass to be laughably broken, it's still a cost the sorcerer doesn't need to pay. A 20th level sorcerer can make a 38DC UMD roll in his sleep.

So can a 20th level wizard's familiar. And I can craft the scroll at half cost.

20 skill ranks + 3 for class + 6 for evolved familiar racial skill bonus, +4 for familiar feat skill focus. + 2 for stat.

And if you're going to argue that +2 item bonus (400 gold?) is a nerf at 20th level - well just remember those scrolls are costing me half cost.

Putting aside, for the moment, that the sorcerer's cohort can provide him with scrolls for half cost and that the sorcerer can have the same familiar build the wizard does, how is it exactly that your familiar has a +3 class bonus to UMD?

Leadership again!?

Jeeeezzz


cp wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:


Putting aside, for the moment, that the sorcerer's cohort can provide him with scrolls for half cost and that the sorcerer can have the same familiar build the wizard does, how is it exactly that your familiar has a +3 class bonus to UMD?
Skill rules for outsiders says you may designate a certain number of skills as class skills.

Those skill points depend on the outsider's theme. Which specific outsider are you using as a familiar?


Alienfreak wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
cp wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
While I agree that skill bonuses from magic items are so cheap ass to be laughably broken, it's still a cost the sorcerer doesn't need to pay. A 20th level sorcerer can make a 38DC UMD roll in his sleep.

So can a 20th level wizard's familiar. And I can craft the scroll at half cost.

20 skill ranks + 3 for class + 6 for evolved familiar racial skill bonus, +4 for familiar feat skill focus. + 2 for stat.

And if you're going to argue that +2 item bonus (400 gold?) is a nerf at 20th level - well just remember those scrolls are costing me half cost.

Putting aside, for the moment, that the sorcerer's cohort can provide him with scrolls for half cost and that the sorcerer can have the same familiar build the wizard does, how is it exactly that your familiar has a +3 class bonus to UMD?

Leadership again!?

Jeeeezzz

Complaining about sorcerers taking leadership makes about as much sense as complaining about wizards taking spell penetration.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
cp wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
While I agree that skill bonuses from magic items are so cheap ass to be laughably broken, it's still a cost the sorcerer doesn't need to pay. A 20th level sorcerer can make a 38DC UMD roll in his sleep.

So can a 20th level wizard's familiar. And I can craft the scroll at half cost.

20 skill ranks + 3 for class + 6 for evolved familiar racial skill bonus, +4 for familiar feat skill focus. + 2 for stat.

And if you're going to argue that +2 item bonus (400 gold?) is a nerf at 20th level - well just remember those scrolls are costing me half cost.

Putting aside, for the moment, that the sorcerer's cohort can provide him with scrolls for half cost and that the sorcerer can have the same familiar build the wizard does, how is it exactly that your familiar has a +3 class bonus to UMD?

Leadership again!?

Jeeeezzz

Complaining about sorcerers taking leadership makes about as much sense as complaining about wizards taking spell penetration.

You have a weird approach on feats...

I thought it was clarified by almost everyone in this Thread already that Leadership is NOT a feat to be taken for comparison by anyone or anything.

Not even in ABs thread you were allowed to have one...


LilithsThrall wrote:
cp wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:


Putting aside, for the moment, that the sorcerer's cohort can provide him with scrolls for half cost and that the sorcerer can have the same familiar build the wizard does, how is it exactly that your familiar has a +3 class bonus to UMD?
Skill rules for outsiders says you may designate a certain number of skills as class skills.
Those skill points depend on the outsider's theme. Which specific outsider are you using as a familiar?

Personal assistant to a arcanist seems like a theme that would include UMD.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I will concede that Snapdragon Fireworks is aimed at a square. Which doesn't get around the problem that 4 pts of fire resistance takes care of it. It's also an ongoing spell effect and can be sundered.

Magic Missile does not create a force effect any more then fireball creates a fire effect or lightning bolt a lightning effect. it creates blasts of magical force. A 'force effect' is a hand, wall, sword or some other thing made out of force. A magic missile doesn't fall into that category. If it does, then you may as well call every single spell out there a 'spell effect' spell.

i.e Magic Missiles can be turned just fine.

===========
Note that a druid isn't going to be any more useful with spells then most casters. Wildshape isn't going to save him, and control winds can be sundered, too, as can Rock to mud and the like. And his Reflex save isn't bad, it's just less then his fort save. He's got over +20 with all saves at level 20, remember.

==Aelryinth

The Exchange

Aelryinth wrote:

I will concede that Snapdragon Fireworks is aimed at a square. Which doesn't get around the problem that 4 pts of fire resistance takes care of it. It's also an ongoing spell effect and can be sundered.

Magic Missile does not create a force effect any more then fireball creates a fire effect or lightning bolt a lightning effect. it creates blasts of magical force. A 'force effect' is a hand, wall, sword or some other thing made out of force. A magic missile doesn't fall into that category. If it does, then you may as well call every single spell out there a 'spell effect' spell.

1. Yes SDF can be sundered. Except it can't because he never gets an action.

2.
Quote:

Magic Missile:

School evocation [force]; Level magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1

DESCRIPTION A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment. ....

If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures. A single missile can strike only one creature. You must designate targets before you check for spell resistance or roll damage.

You really are displaying a lack of fundamental understanding of many aspects of the game. The spell creates force effects (missiles of magic energy).

Just like a fireball spell can ALSO not be turned. It creates a pil of fire that streaks toward the enemy and blows up.

Here's another quote, from the section on incorporeal:
"Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

An example from another spell:

Quote:

Force Bolt (force)

School evocation [force]; Level magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2

EFFECT Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none;
Spell Resistance Yes
Target selected

DESCRIPTION This effect word deals 1d4 points of force damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). This effect is treated like a magic missile for the purposes of spells that negate or absorb force effects.

Spells that create things (rays, beams, bolts, cones, magic missiles, frost effects on missiles, balls of fire...cannot be turned.

Nor can area effect spells. The only thing that can be turned are spells that target your victim directly. (Thats why they are call targeted spells.)

Nor can spells that are delivered by touch.

In the early versions of the game, the flavor text was much clearer - you had the idea of a spell creating a resonating field that reflected some or all of the energy back at the opponent. So while the results are still presented in the table (energy drains away, energy affects both) the understanding of the different classes of spells has gotten much murkier.

The other area you see this abused is a weapon of spell storing. Its supposed to store spells like curse(blindness). Instead you see people casting things like scorching ray. However, you generally dont see this error in modules.

3. Regardless, rings of spell turning are >> WBL at level 11.
4. I'm talking at level 11. And minus the raging his save is about a +10.
5. Regardless, you're missing the point which is to take the BAT out. The fact that I have good (extra) chances to take out the barbarian at the same time is just gravy.

The Exchange

Quote:

Except as we've established, your only way to get Dazing on it is to use a Greater Metamagic Rod, Dazing, thus your entire purpose has kind of imploded on itself. Also, you're looking for the Core Rulebook, page 400, under the 2nd full paragraph on that page for the 25% thing.

Nonsense: The only thing we've established is a bunch of people have WAY different understandings of how Heighten works.

At the very most , we're talking about a difference of +1 DC.

Int +9
SF,GSF, EF, GEF: +4
level 6 spell +6
Dazing from the rod
Qadira trait +2

So again the DC is 31. Which is STILL above the DC30 I quoted.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

As for page 400, I see no such rule saying a character may not spend more than 25%.

Lets quote a few relevent sections:

1. Table 12-4 should be used to budget gear for characters starting above first level. So it is not at necessarily true this rule applies. But, even if it did:
2. For a balanced approach Pc's that are created after 1rst level should spend no more than 25%...

This is advice not a rule.
3. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; FOR EXAMPLE ARCANE CASTER MIGHT SPEND VERY LITTLE ON WEAPONS BUT A GREAT DEAL MORE ON OTHER MAGIC ITEMS...


Aelryinth wrote:


Note that a druid isn't going to be any more useful with spells then most casters. Wildshape isn't going to save him, and control winds can be sundered, too, as can Rock to mud and the like. And his Reflex save isn't bad, it's just less then his fort save. He's got over +20 with all saves at level 20, remember.

==Aelryinth

AM cannot catch a druid. Batty simply isn't fast enough. The druid's single move exceeds Batty's double move and run only applies to land speeds. If he has the wrong spells prepared it's a temporary draw. AM has to rest 8 hours to recover rage rounds and the druid has to rest 8 hours to reconfigure his spells. AM doesn't like casters and the druid doesn't like being chased so they'll meet again tomorrow.

Hold Animal against a flying animal is pretty much a will save or die. Batty's will is as lousy as any animal's. If reflected it doesn't effect the druid. Or hit Batty with Pup Shape, making him too small to carry a rider. Greater Ferocious Mount helps Batty's saves but doubles rage round consumption and the druid can fly all day and strike when AM drops his rage.

AM does one thing and it's one thing that fares badly against parthian tactics. He's probably also going to fare badly against an appropriate CR dragon or an arcane archer (or bow using EK build) with the same mount as him and several hastes prepared. Or known. It doesn't really matter if the AA is sorceror or wizard based. A straight bard might do the job too. Even a summoner on a fast flying eidolon might work. Not sure how fast an eidolon can be made to fly though.

I'm starting to think the archer with a mirror mount and haste is the best answer. It neutralizes Schrödinger's Mount's impact by just taking the same mount and does nonmagical HP damage against AM's lousy AC using clustered shots to get by any DR and haste to have a faster mount at least in round/level bursts no matter what mount Trinam settles on. And it involves sorceror or wizard bringing us back, sort of, to the original subject of the thread. The speed boost from haste is critical to controlling the range so a purely martial character cannot use the same tactics. They're probably about equal. Sorceror can cast more hastes natively but Wizard can use pearls of power. Both have to multiclass to do the job.


Atarlost wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:


Note that a druid isn't going to be any more useful with spells then most casters. Wildshape isn't going to save him, and control winds can be sundered, too, as can Rock to mud and the like. And his Reflex save isn't bad, it's just less then his fort save. He's got over +20 with all saves at level 20, remember.

==Aelryinth

AM cannot catch a druid. Batty simply isn't fast enough. The druid's single move exceeds Batty's double move and run only applies to land speeds. If he has the wrong spells prepared it's a temporary draw. AM has to rest 8 hours to recover rage rounds and the druid has to rest 8 hours to reconfigure his spells. AM doesn't like casters and the druid doesn't like being chased so they'll meet again tomorrow.

Hold Animal against a flying animal is pretty much a will save or die. Batty's will is as lousy as any animal's. If reflected it doesn't effect the druid. Or hit Batty with Pup Shape, making him too small to carry a rider. Greater Ferocious Mount helps Batty's saves but doubles rage round consumption and the druid can fly all day and strike when AM drops his rage.

AM does one thing and it's one thing that fares badly against parthian tactics. He's probably also going to fare badly against an appropriate CR dragon or an arcane archer (or bow using EK build) with the same mount as him and several hastes prepared. Or known. It doesn't really matter if the AA is sorceror or wizard based. A straight bard might do the job too. Even a summoner on a fast flying eidolon might work. Not sure how fast an eidolon can be made to fly though.

I'm starting to think the archer with a mirror mount and haste is the best answer. It neutralizes Schrödinger's Mount's impact by just taking the same mount and does nonmagical HP damage against AM's lousy AC using clustered shots to get by any DR and haste to have a faster mount at least in round/level bursts no matter what mount Trinam settles on. And it involves sorceror or wizard bringing us back,...

Actually! The air elemental has a move speed of 120 feet. AM generally flies wayyy the heck high up all the time, and BATTY BAT is definitely capable of activating Spell Trigger items, whatever it is. (Awakened or otherwise; generally AM is okay with Druids because 'THEY AM AWAKENING BATTY BAT. BARBARIAN HAVE LONG MEMORY. USUALLY.' BATTY'S weakest form has a move speed of 60 ft. Hasted, this becomes 90 feet. Double moved, this is 180 feet. (Again, this is the weakest. If a Dragon this goes further.) This means the Druid, if it casts a spell, cannot move as far as a Barbarian's charge.

When one also considers that the spells in question are not Long spells... The Druid is playing a dangerous game to do anything other than fly away. If the Druid casts spells for two rounds, then AM is on him. Otherwise, AM just heads the other way and they go on with their respective lives. (Which AM would actually be okay with doing, Druids are not a casty AM has Hatred against.)

Also, AM fares fine against an appropriately CR'd dragon. He can Spell Sunder any buffs it has and then use his other 4 attacks for the turn dealing x3 damage on a charge with a ragelancepounce. You do raise a good point about flyers with archers, though. I will have to address that... do they have the ability to double-move and attack at the same time, as that would be a requirement in order to 'Not Get Caught And Die Horribly.'


cp wrote:

As for page 400, I see no such rule saying a character may not spend more than 25%.

Lets quote a few relevent sections:

1. Table 12-4 should be used to budget gear for characters starting above first level. So it is not at necessarily true this rule applies. But, even if it did:
2. For a balanced approach Pc's that are created after 1rst level should spend no more than 25%...

This is advice not a rule.
3. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; FOR EXAMPLE ARCANE CASTER MIGHT SPEND VERY LITTLE ON WEAPONS BUT A GREAT DEAL MORE ON OTHER MAGIC ITEMS...

You're right on that point. The actual rule says they can't spend more than 50%, which a standard rod still breaks. It's a little above where you're reading there, cp. 25% is more of 'good guideline,' as people who go beyond that start smelling like cheese.


Alienfreak wrote:


Complaining about sorcerers taking leadership makes about as much sense as complaining about wizards taking spell penetration.

You have a weird approach on feats...

I thought it was clarified by almost everyone in this Thread already that Leadership is NOT a feat to be taken for comparison by anyone or anything.

Not even in ABs thread you were allowed to have one...

The fact that your GM doesn't use leadership is a house rule.

I see nothing against leadership. I may restrict what you can do with it - just as a matter of keeping the game playable (running over a hundred to hit rolls during combat isn't going to work), but to tell a person that they can't play a character concept which would include having all those followers seems arbitrary to me.

And, to be fair, in a thread like this one, I do expect that everyone use RAW, not just arbitrary portions of it.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I wasn't looking at stuff outside of core.

Wizard beats Barbarian at 20th level. Takes the immortality thing and just waits until Barbarian dies of old age ;-)

Works for Elans too :-)


rat_ bastard wrote:


Personal assistant to a arcanist seems like a theme that would include UMD.

Considering that the Quasit is specifically a personal assistant to an arcanist and does NOT have UMD, I'd like to know what specific outsider cp is using as a familiar.

The Exchange

Trinam wrote:


You're right on that point. The actual rule says they can't spend more than 50%, which a standard rod still breaks. It's a little above where you're reading there, cp. 25% is more of 'good guideline,' as people who go beyond that start smelling like cheese.

Well, perhaps you can find it and quote it for me.

So far all I've found is advice.

Quote:
Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item.

This is advice to the DM, not a rule of play... under the section "Placing Treasure", under Chapter 12: Game Mastering

And since the pathfinder society doesn't follow this rule I think its pretty ironclad we can ignore any mutterings about 50% of WBL from here out.


cp wrote:
Trinam wrote:


You're right on that point. The actual rule says they can't spend more than 50%, which a standard rod still breaks. It's a little above where you're reading there, cp. 25% is more of 'good guideline,' as people who go beyond that start smelling like cheese.

Well, perhaps you can find it and quote it for me.

So far all I've found is advice.

Quote:
Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item.

This is advice to the DM, not a rule of play... under the section "Placing Treasure", under Chapter 12: Game Mastering

And since the pathfinder society doesn't follow this rule I think its pretty ironclad we can ignore any mutterings about 50% of WBL from here out.

PFS doesn't allow character creation past level 1, which is what the specific section is related to. That argument is quite irrelevant.

Thus far, all you've still proven is that you can win if you cheat.

Again, cheating, which anyone can win if they do.


Matthew Morris wrote:

I wasn't looking at stuff outside of core.

Wizard beats Barbarian at 20th level. Takes the immortality thing and just waits until Barbarian dies of old age ;-)

Works for Elans too :-)

CLEARLY, TIME AM CONCEPT BARBARIAN NOT UNDERSTAND. AM JUST RANDOM ONGOING EFFECT THAT MAKE BARBARIAN OLD AND SLOW AND WRINKLY. AM PRETTY SURE THAT AM SPELL-LIKE ABILITY. BARBARIAN HAVE IDEA. BARBARIAN AM SPELL SUNDER TIME.

BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.


AM BARBARIAN wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

I wasn't looking at stuff outside of core.

Wizard beats Barbarian at 20th level. Takes the immortality thing and just waits until Barbarian dies of old age ;-)

Works for Elans too :-)

CLEARLY, TIME AM CONCEPT BARBARIAN NOT UNDERSTAND. AM JUST RANDOM ONGOING EFFECT THAT MAKE BARBARIAN OLD AND SLOW AND WRINKLY. AM PRETTY SURE THAT AM SPELL-LIKE ABILITY. BARBARIAN HAVE IDEA. BARBARIAN AM SPELL SUNDER TIME.

BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.

Wow, that is saint of all killers hardcore.

:thumbs up:


rat_ bastard wrote:
AM BARBARIAN wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

I wasn't looking at stuff outside of core.

Wizard beats Barbarian at 20th level. Takes the immortality thing and just waits until Barbarian dies of old age ;-)

Works for Elans too :-)

CLEARLY, TIME AM CONCEPT BARBARIAN NOT UNDERSTAND. AM JUST RANDOM ONGOING EFFECT THAT MAKE BARBARIAN OLD AND SLOW AND WRINKLY. AM PRETTY SURE THAT AM SPELL-LIKE ABILITY. BARBARIAN HAVE IDEA. BARBARIAN AM SPELL SUNDER TIME.

BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.

Wow, that is saint of all killers hardcore.

:thumbs up:

Wow, I didn't think there'd be another Preacher fan here. That's cool.


Which leads us to an important question:

What caster level are Physics?


Darkwing Duck wrote:
rat_ bastard wrote:
AM BARBARIAN wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

I wasn't looking at stuff outside of core.

Wizard beats Barbarian at 20th level. Takes the immortality thing and just waits until Barbarian dies of old age ;-)

Works for Elans too :-)

CLEARLY, TIME AM CONCEPT BARBARIAN NOT UNDERSTAND. AM JUST RANDOM ONGOING EFFECT THAT MAKE BARBARIAN OLD AND SLOW AND WRINKLY. AM PRETTY SURE THAT AM SPELL-LIKE ABILITY. BARBARIAN HAVE IDEA. BARBARIAN AM SPELL SUNDER TIME.

BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.

Wow, that is saint of all killers hardcore.

:thumbs up:

Wow, I didn't think there'd be another Preacher fan here. That's cool.

You did not think you would find a reader of comic books in a gaming messageboard? Are you aware of your surroundings? Do you have a caretaker? :P

The Exchange

Returning to the question of Wizard vs Sorceror.

Here's how & why I rate it 55/45.

1. Bonus feats. 1 Feat / 5 levels. Additionally, Scribe Scroll is way more useful than Eschew Materials.
2. Higher spell levels. Every odd level wizards can cast a spell of higher level, and hence higher power than a sorcerer. And since combats are usually decided in three rounds (not including surprise rnd), the extra number of spells doesn't matter.
3. Quickened spells. Useful for wizard and sorc, but the +4 LA means that having higher level spells is useful. So the combination of quickened and higher spells and more feats means that quicken is more useful.
4. I rate familiars more useful than bloodlines. A controversial statement for sure. But dropping caltrops to block a charge, using wands of CLW, relaying messages - very useful
5. Finally I agree that sorcerers are better at UMD. However, especially at high levels - it doesn't matter - using UMD is so easy its irrelevent whether you're sorc or wiz.
6. Wizards plethora of skill points trumps the sorc's diplomacy.
Personally I *love* face builds. But when you are sitting at a table Ref's and players will often just want to 'hit something'. Finding out the attacks and defenses of a critter is more often usefull than being able to diplomacize it - not because of game mechanics - but just because of player expectations.

Sorcs are a lot easier to manage and play. They use the same tools, so they hone their skills with those tools. Sorcs spend their thinking about which spells to learn during character creation - wizards have to do it during session play - and wizards may choose wrong.

The new alt racial abilities that gives sorcs the ability to know 1 extra spell per level is very strong.

Sorcs tend to not be as frail as wizards. I think the blood lines tend to encourage other attributes, whereas wizard builds tend to strongly favor non balanced builds.

The Exchange

Trinam wrote:

PFS doesn't allow character creation past level 1, which is what the specific section is related to. That argument is quite irrelevant.

So you're saying if I create the character at level one the "rule" doesn't apply. So since these are theoretical builds of how we would advance a build, none of the blather applies.

But if it did, why I'd be sure to listen to that advice!

In the meantime, feel free to quote an actual rule.


cp wrote:
Trinam wrote:

PFS doesn't allow character creation past level 1, which is what the specific section is related to. That argument is quite irrelevant.

So you're saying if I create the character at level one the "rule" doesn't apply. So since these are theoretical builds of how we would advance a build, none of the blather applies.

But if it did, why I'd be sure to listen to that advice!

In the meantime, feel free to quote an actual rule.

These are theoretical builds based on what could theoretically happen at a table. Tell you what, since you're the one who said PFS doesn't follow this particular rule...

Can you show me a PFS pregen made past level 1 that uses over 1/2 of its Wealth By Level on a single item? If so I will gladly concede the point.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Magic missile is a targeted force spell, it is NOT a force effect. Force effects fall under the line of things created of force that are persistent...hands, walls, swords, cages. Magic missile is akin to a ray in that regard...it has instantaneous existence, it is basically just targeted force damage. I love the MM spell, but it doesn't work the way you want it to.

And if you target someone with a fireball, as opposed to just including them in the AoE, you can most certainly reflect it. I'm not certain where you are getting all your super=friendly caster interpretations from, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

There's been no iteration of the game where spell turning didn't affect magic missile. Note there IS a difference between Force Spells and Force Effects, or the 'and' would not have been in the spell description.

And actually the Int was +8, because you can't afford a +6 booster; you can't afford the Rod, so you have to pay for it out of feat/level cost, so it's -1 to DC. So your DC is 29 if you 1/day boost it, 27 for the second casting, and 23 otherwise. And you've got to hope they don't have fire resistance for the Snapdragon.

==Aelryinth


rat_ bastard wrote:
You did not think you would find a reader of comic books in a gaming messageboard? Are you aware of your surroundings? Do you have a caretaker? :P

There's a small difference between the popularity of Batman and Preacher.

The Exchange

Aelryinth wrote:

Magic missile is a targeted force spell, it is NOT a force effect. Force effects fall under the line of things created of force that are persistent...hands, walls, swords, cages. Magic missile is akin to a ray in that regard...it has instantaneous existence, it is basically just targeted force damage. I love the MM spell, but it doesn't work the way you want it to.

And if you target someone with a fireball, as opposed to just including them in the AoE, you can most certainly reflect it. I'm not certain where you are getting all your super=friendly caster interpretations from, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

There's been no iteration of the game where spell turning didn't affect magic missile. Note there IS a difference between Force Spells and Force Effects, or the 'and' would not have been in the spell description.

And actually the Int was +8, because you can't afford a +6 booster; you can't afford the Rod, so you have to pay for it out of feat/level cost, so it's -1 to DC. So your DC is 29 if you 1/day boost it, 27 for the second casting, and 23 otherwise. And you've got to hope they don't have fire resistance for the Snapdragon.

==Aelryinth

You are confusing effect duration, with what type of effect it is.

The fact that an effect might have a duration of instantaneous, rnd/level or longer does not change the type of effect.

And I'm supposing you're ignoring the words in the Spell Turning description that say "area effect spells cannot be turned." Go look it up. I posted it a page or so ago.

Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

Simplifying a compound expression we can see your interpreation is wrong.

Break it into:

Force spells, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorp. creature normally.

and

Force effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorp creature normally.

And you completely ignored the force bolt where once again it said it was an EFFECT like magic missile.

As for where I've gotten such friendly rulings, I'd guess that would have to be from TSR initially when I was campaign staff for them for such events as Gen Con South.


cp wrote:
<Something that involved capital letters implying that Magic Missile was not a spell but an effect. Somehow.>

Tell me, did you used to post around here under the name CoDzilla? You guys' rhetoric are similar.

Spoiler:
Yeah. I went there.


cp wrote:

Returning to the question of Wizard vs Sorceror.

Here's how & why I rate it 55/45.

1. Bonus feats. 1 Feat / 5 levels. Additionally, Scribe Scroll is way more useful than Eschew Materials.

Wizard gets 5, Sorcerer gets 3. But, Sorcerer can use these feat slots foe things like Improved Init (based on bloodline). Slight advantage to the Wizard

cp wrote:


2. Higher spell levels. Every odd level wizards can cast a spell of higher level, and hence higher power than a sorcerer. And since combats are usually decided in three rounds (not including surprise rnd), the extra number of spells doesn't matter.

Without the 15 minute adventuring day, the ability to cast the highest level spells repeatedly is vital. This gives the advantage to the wizard on the odd levels and to the sorcerer on the even levels.

cp wrote:


3. Quickened spells. Useful for wizard and sorc, but the +4 LA means that having higher level spells is useful. So the combination of quickened and higher spells and more feats means that quicken is more useful.

Spontaneous casting gives the advantage to the sorcerer.

cp wrote:


4. I rate familiars more useful than bloodlines. A controversial statement for sure. But dropping caltrops to block a charge, using wands of CLW, relaying messages - very useful.

Considering one of the bloodlines grants a familiar along with other goodies, I think its clear that bloodlines are better.

cp wrote:


5. Finally I agree that sorcerers are better at UMD. However, especially at high levels - it doesn't matter - using UMD is so easy its irrelevent whether you're sorc or wiz.

Show me a wizard who can match a sorcerer in UMD without spending feat or gold.

cp wrote:


6. Wizards plethora of skill points trumps the sorc's diplomacy.
Personally I *love* face builds. But when you are sitting at a table Ref's and players will often just want to 'hit something'. Finding out the attacks and defenses of a critter is more often usefull than being able to diplomacize it - not because of game mechanics - but just because of player expectations.

I agree that wizards have the skill point advantage.

cp wrote:


Sorcs are a lot easier to manage and play. They use the same tools, so they hone their skills with those tools. Sorcs spend their thinkig about which spells to learn during character creation - wizards have to do it during session play - and wizards may choose wrong.

I don't really agree with this. Sorcerers take serious effort to plan out their level progression. Also, a sorcerer player has to be intimately familiar with all their spells. By comparison, wizards are something a newbie will have a far easier time playing.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Must disagree with the latter. A newbie will have just as much trouble with a wizard, because of either limited spell selection, or massive spell selection. Knowing what to plan ahead for it not an easy job for a wizard.

Note that Sage sorcerer takes care of the skill point problem, too.

The UMD is a non-argument. Having to match a Sorceror is unneccessary as long as he is good enough to do whatever needs to be done. +50 to a skill is overkill if you only need +20, and that's what UMD is...hitting fixed DC's. The highest conceivable DC is what, 37?

You also forgot spell acquisition...free vs costing not-insubstantial amounts of time and money to acquire true utility.
========

Ahhh, English arguments, the last refuge of a bad argument.

Force Spells and Force Effects, such as Magic Missile....Does Not Mean Magic mIssile is BOTH. It can be an example of one or the other.

If they would have used Wall of Force, that would qualify as both. All Force Effects are nominally spells, but not all force spells are force effects. By your rulings, any spell is an effect, and none are turnable.

The plain fact is that MM is a mandatory targeted instantaneous non-AoE damage effect, delivering damage instead of a charm person effect. You can Turn it.

And if you Target someone with an AoE, you can Turn it back on the caster. That's why you make it blow up 5' in front of them, instead, so in reality the situation never comes up.

===Aelryinth


Trinam wrote:

Actually! The air elemental has a move speed of 120 feet. AM generally flies wayyy the heck high up all the time, and BATTY BAT is definitely capable of activating Spell Trigger items, whatever it is. (Awakened or otherwise; generally AM is okay with Druids because 'THEY AM AWAKENING BATTY BAT. BARBARIAN HAVE LONG MEMORY. USUALLY.' BATTY'S weakest form has a move speed of 60 ft. Hasted, this becomes 90 feet. Double moved, this is 180 feet. (Again, this is the weakest. If a Dragon this goes further.) This means the Druid, if it casts a spell, cannot move as far as a Barbarian's charge.

When one also considers that the spells in question are not Long spells... The Druid is playing a dangerous game to do anything other than fly away. If the Druid casts spells for two rounds, then AM is on him. Otherwise, AM just heads the other way and they go on with their respective lives. (Which AM would actually be okay with doing, Druids are not a casty AM has Hatred against.)

Also, AM fares fine against an appropriately CR'd dragon. He can Spell Sunder any buffs it has and then use his other 4 attacks for the turn dealing x3 damage on a charge with a ragelancepounce. You do raise a good point about flyers with archers, though. I will have to address that... do they have the ability to double-move and attack at the same time, as that would be a requirement in order to 'Not Get Caught And Die Horribly.'

Pup shape may be a problem, though the difference in fly skill and speed should allow the druid to get behind Batty without Batty being able to turn fast enough to engage him. Hold Animal is medium though. Medium has a range of 100' +10'/level. That's 300' at level 20 or 220' at level 12. Batty is a Dire Bat. If Batty were a dragon he could not have had awaken cast on him. That and "identify flying lizard that breathes elemental nastiness as a dragon" should rightly have a negative DC for anyone that hasn't been living in a cave since before dragons came to Golarion. They kind of figure in a lot of stories of the sorts that are typically told in drinking establishments. Dire bats have a 40' fly speed according to Paizo.

As to the dragon, he casts antimagic field, which cannot be sundered because spell sunder is a supernatural ability which doesn't work in an antimagic field. Your non-artifact weapons lose their enchantment while within 10' of the dragon and you lose all the beast totem rage powers powers but the ancient red dragon (CR 19) still has DR 15/magic. An ancient red dragon's attack bonus is high enough that mounted combat probably won't prevent Batty from being hit and its greater vital strike damage is high enough to instagib a dire bat. Even a young bronze dragon could go down in one non-critical hit on a lucky damage roll. Getting out of the antimagic field to sunder it wastes AM's attack and the young bronze almost certainly goes down the second round. AM takes 20d6 damage from hitting the ground at terminal velocity and Red drops the antimagic field and starts doing flybys with his breath weapon.

For the archer, attacking with a ranged weapon on a double moving mount is -4 and can be reduced to -2 with a feat.

The Exchange

Aelryinth wrote:
Must disagree with the latter. A newbie will have just as much trouble with a wizard, because of either limited spell selection, or massive spell selection. Knowing what to plan ahead for it not an easy job for a wizard.
Quote:

I think we're all saying the same thing. Sorcerors spend the bulk of their time leveling and no time while playing.

Wizards (if they are carefree) can be less meticulous about planning while doing character advancement, but must be much more meticulous while playing. This makes them harder to play in game.

Quote:

The UMD is a non-argument. Having to match a Sorceror is unneccessary as long as he is good enough to do whatever needs to be done. +50 to a skill is overkill if you only need +20, and that's what UMD is...hitting fixed DC's. The highest conceivable DC is what, 37?

Agreed.

========

Quote:


By your rulings, any spell is an effect, and none are turnable.

No. Heres the text from spell turning again:

Quote:


Spells and spell-like effects targeted on you are turned back upon the original caster. The abjuration turns only spells that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected. Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells.

So the first line says that spell turning affects spells and similar things, possibly including monster abilities, spell like abilities etc.

The second line says the abjuration turns only SPELLS that have you as a target. Effect and area spells are not affected.

Read that again: EFFECT and AREA spells are not affected.

Turn to the definition of Effect - page 214 of core rule.

Quote:


Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

So to give an example, the spell Wall of Force creates an effect - a forcewall in a specific location, size etc. Acid arrows are spell effects. Forceful hands are spell effects.

Being effects, they *cannot* be turned.

It then goes on to list some effects - rays, for example.

Now read the next section carefully:

You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell [b]

Read that again. Ray spells, such as Scorching rays are not Targetted spells.

Just like if you cast flame arrow on a bunch of arrows, and then shoot it at the victim - that does not make it a targeted spell.

Read it yet again. Effect spells summon or create things rather than affect thngs that are already present.

Or, again, under [b] subjects, effects, and areas . If the spell affects creatures directly (targeted spell) the result travels with the subjects for the spells duration. If the spell creates an effect, the EFFECT lasts for the duration.

Its pretty clear, Magic missile is a force spell that creates a force effect. If magical missiles affected the creature directly the *damage* would only last for the duration of the spell (instantaneous). That is not what happens. The spell effects (magic darts) are instantaneous - but the damage lasts until healed.

Similarly, with a few exceptions which are explained in their spell descriptions, area spells do not target an individual. They target a square.

For example lines: "A line shpaed spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends... A line shaped spell affects all creature in quares through which the line passes."

You cannot turn a lightning bolt - because the spell is not targeting you. It targets the square you are in.

For a good example of the difference, lets look at the silence spell.

If you cast it as a targeted spell - the spell *is* targetted, spell turning and spell resistance (and saves) come into play. In this case the silence effect moves with the subject.

Alternately, it can be cast as an area spell. In which case the spell *can't* be turned, and while spell resistance might prevent the spell from affecting the victim, it does not cause the entire spell to fizzle.
And in this case, the spell affect remains in one place.

Quote:


And if you Target someone with an AoE, you can Turn it back on the caster. That's why you make it blow up 5' in front of them, instead, so in reality the situation never comes up.

===Aelryinth

Again, quoting the rules for area effect spells
Quote:
"The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.'

If a spell is targeted on a grid intersection - its not targeted on you is it... so

Quote:


Spells and spell-like effects targeted on *you* are turned back

doesn't apply....


Trinam,

how's your barbarian guide going?

Liberty's Edge

yay...1000!!

But on a serious note. Id like to join the club of "I think that both classes bring something good and fun to the table." Obviously they both play differently and have different strengths so there will be people who choose to debate which is better. But really, if you are having fun and contributing to the party, does it matter which you play?

I am currently enjoying my halfling Fey sorcerer. Former slave who learned he could make his slavers obey him instead. Really cool guy, just dont command him to do something.

Prior to that I played a gnome conjurer who had a fancy for history and pranks. He was invited to leave a few places when he started using Sepia Snake Sigil as one his chosen pranks. There was also the time he gave the local constable a thank you letter, which also summoned a minor devil, just to see the look on the constables face.


damn, missed.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

For the record, CP, you have forgotten a very pertinent line in your citation of magic missile:

PRD wrote:


Magic Missile

Targets up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart


Darkwing Duck wrote:
I worry about your to- hit, AC, and the fact that it will take three rounds before you enter combat (form of the dragon, fire shield, full move).

I gave you the skeleton of the build. My actual character is different because his stats are rolled, so they are much better than what I did with 15 point point buy.

And you don't fully turn into a dragon with fire shield. Not really necessary. That was more of you are one of the few build that could use fire shield to great effect.

Who cares what your AC is. Your defending yourselves with spells. Fickle winds handles archers. 25 foot reach while in dragon form allows you to attack from extreme range for all but collossal creatures. Your working in a party, not alone.

So when the main guy is focusing on the melee and you're swooping in and taking his dex or loading him up with negative levels, they are not happy.

This is the reason I don't see the point of determining whether the sorcerer or wizard is better by having them fight each other. That's not how it goes down in the game. In the game it's your party against an enemy or group of enemies. You can come up with a variety of highly effective builds with each class.

I posted the above build because the wizard can't do the above build. It can only be done with sorcerer powers. It's a powerhouse build that is very hard in a party dynamic. You can't just target my sorcerer build and hope to take me out easy with a spell just because you can see me. You also can't hope to just hammer me a few times in melee and kill me. I'm hard as heck to bring down. It's a build that uses a different method to be effective in combat.

For example, once I get blindsight, I can use cloud spells to great effect. Even better than regular invisibility.


Alienfreak wrote:
Maddigan wrote:


S: 20 (+5) Saves: Fort +21 Ref: +13 Will: +13
D: 16 (+3)
C: 28 (+9) (10)
I: 10
W: 10
Ch: 24 (+7) (5) (+2 human bonus)

Hps: 216 (16d6+160) average rolls.

Ability bonus for level: +2 con, +2 cha

Items:
Robe of Arcane Heritage (Boost bloodline powers by 4 levels)
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Headband of Alluring Charisma +6
cloak of resistance +5

How in heavens name do you get those permanent Ability Scores?

Or do they include a lot of 1min/lvl spells which you won't have active?

It would mean
14
10
20
10
10
14

as your array?

rat_ bastard wrote:
Just a thought but I think the best familiar is a Compsognathus with a permanent Anthropomorphic Animal spell on it. That way it gives you a +4 initiative, has hands, can speak and it can light its own cigarettes. All that without a feat.
The best familiar is a Nosoi ;)

No. That was with 15 point point buy.

S 10
D 10
C 16 (10 points)
I 10
W 10
Ch 16 (5 points and +2 human bonus)

Sorcerer powers provide +4 inherent bonus to str and constitution.
Level based ability point gains: +2 Con, +2 Cha
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Headband of Alluring Charisma +6

That's how you get those stats.

Mine are much, much better because we roll. The way I calculated it, I'll have around 300 hit points at lvl 20. My sorcerer should be a vicious beast to bring down. He's frightening right now and often walks right up into enemy's faces and vampiric touch's them and let's them take swings at him to see they if they last longer than he can.


Alienfreak wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:


How in heavens name do you get those permanent Ability Scores?

Or do they include a lot of 1min/lvl spells which you won't have active?

It would mean
14
10
20
10
10
14

as your array?

Ah ok I see... Pit Touched via Feat... thats nasty :/

But any particular reason you take Aberrant as your normal bloodline and not Pit Touched instaed? If you want Long Arms you can take this as your heritage feat?

First, you take aberrant because you want the extended shapechange. When you get to have lvl 9 spells, you're going to be having a lvl 9 spell shapechange extended for 285 minutes or roughly 5 hours a day. In essence, you're going to have it up all the time. You'll never really have to cast another polymorph spell again and you can change shape as needed gaining movement, stats, etc, etc.

Two, you want Aberrant Form for the immunity to crits/precision damage, DR 5/-, and Blindsight 60 feet all innate as in can't be dispelled and works with all your forms.

All you want from the Infernal-Pit-touched bloodline is the Con bonus. Though the touch effect isn't bad.

The entire feel of the build isn't so much arcane caster as it is strange, shapeshifting monster that can do bad things to you and is hard to kill. If your DM is playing it up, many of the things fighting you will be frightened. They're used to wizards and sorcerers that throw fireballs or cast wall of force. What they're not used to is Mr. Caster entering melee with them, standing toe to toe, and sucking their life and stats away while maintaing a grim and fearless expression.

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