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Somebody please show me how any class can have a high UMD without spending a feat or investing WBL.
Does dangerously curious count?
That gives only a +4
Someone mentioned this earlier...
If you play a Half-Elf, you can get Skill Focus (UMD) as a bonus feat. The opportunity cost is lower, if your only other choice is Skill Focus (something else).
Dangerously Curious (+4), plus Skill Focus (+6), plus 20 ranks (+20), minus a homely Cha 8 Wizard (-1) comes out to +29. You can auto succeed on a DC 30 Use Magic Device check, even after dumping Charisma.
And it cost a Trait, a bonus Feat, and Skill Ranks (and you've got plenty of those as a Wizard).
Somebody please show me how any class can have a high UMD without spending a feat or investing WBL.Does dangerously curious count?That gives only a +4
Though I would like to know what the game designers were thinking when they created that particular trait, I realize that my chances of getting an answer to that question are very low.
Why? It follows the same formula as most other traits: +1 to a skill and makes that skill a class skill for you.
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I don't think Int is a tertiary attribute for sorcerers.
I'd rate Cha as primary, Dex and Con as secondary, and everything else as tertiary, but YMMV. I'd certainly put it next after those three, but for a 20 point buy game, it shouldn't top 12.
Edit: Do you consider it primary? Because the argument that LT made (that you couldn't seem to find as you scrolled the thread), was that anything that takes away from your core strength is a nerf of the character. So, if your Charisma starts at 20, what are you nerfing to get a 14 or 16 Int?
I don't think Int is a tertiary attribute for sorcerers.I'd rate Cha as primary, Dex and Con as secondary, and everything else as tertiary, but YMMV. I'd certainly put it next after those three, but for a 20 point buy game, it shouldn't top 12.
Unless you are a human sage sorcerer to get extra skill points and extra spells to make up for the primary weaknesses of the class. Then thumbs up and crank that INT.
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Unless you are a human sage sorcerer to get extra skill points and extra spells to make up for the primary weaknesses of the class. Then thumbs up and crank that INT.
True, but I've seen it argued that you couldn't have a decent UMD without having Charisma as your primary stat (I read this on the internet somewhere). ;)
He can spam False Life (there's not much else competing at 2nd level). That would handle his Con. Dex just isn't needed, he's usually got a pet who can soak damage for him.
HP isn't the biggest concern with CON, Fortitude is. Assuming one is available for purchase, a wand of Bestow Grace can help, but until the point that you manage to acquire one you need to survive, and even then, it won't always be active. And DEX gives a boost to initiative, a caster's best friend.
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On a point buy, 16 Cha costs 10 points. You can't gain anything from boosting it until you take it up to 18 which costs an additional 7 points. So, there's not much value in bumping it to 18. Instead, you can take some of those 7 points to bump up Int.
I have to disagree with this. The extra Charisma is worth every attribute point it takes to get it as high as possible. I'll take a +1 to the save DC of all of my spells (that stacks with Spell Focus, and will last for my entire career) any day, over an extra skill point or two per level. Not to mention the extra bonus spells.
Also, if you do use bestow grace, as mentioned above, it's an additional +1 to all of your saves, but that's just gravy.
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That's actually interesting. It's a horrible bastardization of Schrödingers work, but still interesting how slang develops....
A Schroedinger's wizard is a theorycrafting wizard who always has exactly what is needed to win the argument - in contrast to a wizard played in an actual game.
The term "Schroedinger's Wizard" started (as far as I know) here
SLightly off topic
"Boyscout wizard" (or girlscout wizard) would be a more accurate term.
/slightly off topic
Slightly off topic
Only if you are from the US. For the rest of the world Schrödingers wizard sound better.
The image of his gear/spells/stats/feats/ecc being in flux till they are needed to win a discussion and depending on the observer work very well.
/Slightly off topic
"Boyscout wizard" sort of implies that a wizard played in an actual game really could be prepared for everything. That's just ludicrous.
That's why I prefer "Schroedinger's Wizard". It has the implication of things being undefined and vague until needed.
+1
In these boards wizards are the major example of a Schroedinger build but it is used with a lot of classes to "win" a discussion.
I think I've seen strong evidence in this thread of Schrödingers Sorcerer, too.
He/she always has the right spells known, always has the right outsider bound, always has the right skills despite having 2+int/level and int as a non-primary stat, and always has the right scrolls/wands.
That's just as daft as the aforementioned wizard.
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Even after all of this, sorcerer is still my favourite class. I'm not under any delusion that it's anywhere near comparable with the wizard, and the lousy logic and bizarre behaviour of those in defense of the sorcerer in this argument really make me reconsider.
Seriously, guys. Stop making me feel bad for liking the class with such a hideous defense. Stop being to sorcerers what militant feminists are to feminism.
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There's no way LT is making a Sorcerer with at least 6 skill points per level without penalizing his core strength (which definitely isn't Intelligence)...without nerfing his character.
There are two ways to read this when you're half awake. One made me laugh out loud.
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I think I've seen strong evidence in this thread of Schrödingers Sorcerer, too.
He/she always has the right spells known, always has the right outsider bound, always has the right skills despite having 2+int/level and int as a non-primary stat, and always has the right scrolls/wands.
That's just as daft as the aforementioned wizard.
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Even after all of this, sorcerer is still my favourite class. I'm not under any delusion that it's anywhere near comparable with the wizard, and the lousy logic and bizarre behaviour of those in defense of the sorcerer in this argument really make me reconsider.
Seriously, guys. Stop making me feel bad for liking the class with such a hideous defense. Stop being to sorcerers what militant feminists are to feminism.
If it makes you feel better, I think the class is (mostly) fine. I like sorcerers, especially the bloodlines now. To me, sorcerers are like specialist wizards, thematic.
I want to make a Darkchilde knock off? Human Abyssal bloodline, focusing on conjuration (I'll even burn my 3rd level feat for Bastard Sword for the whole 'soulsword' feel)
Hot Osiran sorcererss (Think looking like Anaksunamun) Celestial Bloodline, burning prestidigation to keep the skin/makeup combo.
Sorcerer fighting corruption within? Aberrant or undead, with an emphasis on transmuation magic, etc.
Aside, I thought about making a Sage bloodline sorcerer, who has a sword he always does flashing things with, carries a spell book, and pretends to be a wizard.
I think I've seen strong evidence in this thread of Schrödingers Sorcerer, too.
He/she always has the right spells known, always has the right outsider bound, always has the right skills despite having 2+int/level and int as a non-primary stat, and always has the right scrolls/wands.
That's just as daft as the aforementioned wizard.
--
Even after all of this, sorcerer is still my favourite class. I'm not under any delusion that it's anywhere near comparable with the wizard, and the lousy logic and bizarre behaviour of those in defense of the sorcerer in this argument really make me reconsider.
Seriously, guys. Stop making me feel bad for liking the class with such a hideous defense. Stop being to sorcerers what militant feminists are to feminism.
What people miss out here is that the Sorcerer has some strengths often overlooked:
1. Cha isn't his only casting attribute! You can be Int and Wis, too. Dwarf Sorcerer anyone? And Int is still good because he gets all Knowledge Skills then and even will have Skillpoints for them.
2. His bloodlines often have really quite inbalanced features. Just look at the Animal Companion or the Pit Touched Special :)
In these boards wizards are the major example of a Schroedinger build but it is used with a lot of classes to "win" a
As soon as LT will post one of his BETTER THAN WIZUuuuuRDS build I might actually feel compelled to post one, too.
LT was using the "if, then" clause since page one.Its always like:
Wizards have many skillpoints!
- NO MY SURCURUR ALWAYS HAS 6
Wizards have more spells
- NO MY SURCRURUR HAS MORE SPELLS
Wizards are good at having hitpoints
- NO MY SURCURUR HAS OVER 9000 HPs
My Wizard can have 14 or 16 in not his main attribute
- NO THATS A NERF BUT MY SURCURUR HAS ALL ATTRIBUTES AT 16
....
I never said that sorcerers are better than wizards. I said they are equal. And it's grossly unfair to accuse me of Schroedinger's Sorcerers builds after I offered to provide builds for comparison to wizard builds you'd provide (and which you've refused to provide). Not that I was ever under any delusions that you'd argue fairly.
You should train your reading skills.
I have seen at least 4 offers in here to make some wizard builds if you post some.
Yet its been you who kept using the "if, then" clause all along and refusing to make yourself vulnerable by actually having to provide anything
You should train your reading skills.
Look man, after Spellcraft, Perception, Knoweldge (Arcana), UMD, Knowledge (Planes) and Escape Artist (Because GRAPPLES), you don't have any skill points left for Linguistics as a Sorcerer.
That's already all six points.
There's no room.
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I never said that sorcerers are better than wizards. I said they are equal. And it's grossly unfair to accuse me of Schroedinger's Sorcerers builds after I offered to provide builds for comparison to wizard builds you'd provide (and which you've refused to provide). Not that I was ever under any delusions that you'd argue fairly.You should train your reading skills.
I have seen at least 4 offers in here to make some wizard builds if you post some.
Yet its been you who kept using the "if, then" clause all along and refusing to make yourself vulnerable by actually having to provide anything
Actually I think he just conceeded his argument.
"I'm not going to post Sorcerer builds, until you post wizard builds that I cam make a sorcerer specifically to compare."
See, even LT admits that a sorcerer is better than a wizard, as long as the sorcerer gets to look at the character sheet of th wizard and then build (*cough*prepare*cough*) a sorcerer clone. :-)
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You should train your reading skills.Look man, after Spellcraft, Perception, Knoweldge (Arcana), UMD, Knowledge (Planes) and Escape Artist (Because GRAPPLES), you don't have any skill points left for Linguistics as a Sorcerer.
That's already all six points.
There's no room.
Which goes back to the Barb being a better sorcerer than the sorcerer. :-)
*Bard casts glibness* "There I just cast a spell that dampens your spells, you can't cast any." (Bluff being easily +37 with the spell)
"Well crap, I don't have any ranks in sense motive, so I guess I'm screwed."
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See, even LT admits that a sorcerer is better than a wizard, as long as the sorcerer gets to look at the character sheet of th wizard and then build (*cough*prepare*cough*) a sorcerer clone. :-)
Much like the "Wizards auto-win" faction is happy to put up a build as long as they get to tailor it to the sorcerer build that they would be going up against.
I declare the winner of this discussion to be BARBARIAN AM.
Not that I was ever under any delusions that you'd argue fairly.
That's logic!
BWWAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
Which goes back to the Barb being a better sorcerer than the sorcerer. :-)
I declare the winner of this discussion to be BARBARIAN AM.
BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
EVEN IN THREAD HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH BARBARIAN.
AM MORE EVIDENCE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
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See, even LT admits that a sorcerer is better than a wizard, as long as the sorcerer gets to look at the character sheet of th wizard and then build (*cough*prepare*cough*) a sorcerer clone. :-)Much like the "Wizards auto-win" faction is happy to put up a build as long as they get to tailor it to the sorcerer build that they would be going up against.
I declare the winner of this discussion to be BARBARIAN AM.
Oh I don't deny that. And I could likely make a psion that would wipe the floor with both of 'em given preperation.*
I was just commenting that LT at least admits he wants to see the Wizard build so he can build one to 'compare'.
*
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So, you've conceded the point because you' feel like you have to wait til I build a Sorcerer so that you can build a wizard to counter it.
Wow, yeah, he really didn't put any points in lingustics and has the xenophobic language array on top of it. *rolls eyes*
Since LT has refused to provide any sorcerer builds, I state he conceeded the argument and bards are better sorcerers than sorcerers.
So, you've conceded the point because you' feel like you have to wait til I build a Sorcerer so that you can build a wizard to counter it.Oh Brother.
I have given you two specific builds - one from the Wiz vs martial thread and one from the RavingDorks every wizard should be a blaster thread.
For heavens sake - just go build something that you think will beat the RavingDorks Blaster thread build.
You're not expecting Lilly to actually read what's being written. Based on all available evidence he prefers to just pick out the parts that he likes and pretend the rest doesn't exist.
Lets see...
Sorcerers are better than wizards because:
They can use UMD to cast spells they do not know.
Because if its their favored class, and they take toughness and buff their con with spells and magic items they can have allot of hit points.
At 18th level they can cast 9th level Sorcerer/wizard spells.
They get feats at odd levels.
Many bloodlines get touch attacks that include debuffs.
Sorcerers can use crossbows.
Leadership is more likely to give them a cohort who can hand them scrolls.
With an 18 Int they can get 6 skill points a level.
Human Sorcerers can choose to get more spells.
Arcane bloodline Sorcerers can have familiars, which are superior to wizard's bonded objects.
Sorcerers can talk extra planar creatures into picking up their dry cleaning.
Female sorcerers wear less clothing than female Ninjas.
Literacy is for pussies.
A certain Paladin Spell helps them disproportionately well.
Sorcerers have proficiency with clubs.
Lets see...
Sorcerers are better than wizards because:
They can use UMD to cast spells they do not know.
Because if its their favored class, and they take toughness and buff their con with spells and magic items they can have allot of hit points.
At 18th level they can cast 9th level Sorcerer/wizard spells.
They get feats at odd levels.
Many bloodlines get touch attacks that include debuffs.
Sorcerers can use crossbows.
Leadership is more likely to give them a cohort who can hand them scrolls.
With an 18 Int they can get 6 skill points a level.
Human Sorcerers can choose to get more spells.
Arcane bloodline Sorcerers can have familiars, which are superior to wizard's bonded objects.
Sorcerers can talk extra planar creatures into picking up their dry cleaning.
Female sorcerers wear less clothing than female Ninjas.
Literacy is for pussies.
A certain Paladin Spell helps them disproportionately well.
Sorcerers have proficiency with clubs.
That was my understanding. Good to know why sorcerers PWN so much face. Thank you for the convenient format.
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I forgot, every four levels a sorcerer gets a bonus attribute point, something that makes them even better than wizards!
Also a sorcerer with a high strength wielding a two handed weapon weapon ads 1.5 of his strength bonus to his attacks!
Oh right, I remember you. You were the guy who flunked out of metamagic 101 by stating putting heighten on top of dazing made a 2nd level spell have a 6th level spell dc instead of a third, and also took spell perfection multiple times, right?
Aerylinth, we found you a friend!
Excuse me, I don't argue Spell DC's go up on MM'd spells. Well, +1 if you're a sorc arcane.
=========For the Poster wondering about the AM BARBARIAN sorceror win, it came down to the fact that A-B was either ignoring, resisting or sundering every spell a wizard could send his way, or one shotting his summoned beasts, getting up to him on the charge and killing him.
Truly. They couldn't find a way to stop him, only to run away.
Then someone came in with a sorceror build, and killed A-B's mount (really, the only viable target) with a no-save, untargeted Druid Spell, Tornado, when A-B charged.
And then it came down to waiting for the landbound A-B's rage to run out and see what happened. I'm not sure A-B can fly on his own, but in that event the sorc just runs away.
Spell Sunder and Superstitious are just that strong.
==Aelryinth
Oh right, I remember you. You were the guy who flunked out of metamagic 101 by stating putting heighten on top of dazing made a 2nd level spell have a 6th level spell dc instead of a third, and also took spell perfection multiple times, right?
Aerylinth, we found you a friend!
Excuse me, I don't argue Spell DC's go up on MM'd spells. Well, +1 if you're a sorc arcane.
=========For the Poster wondering about the AM BARBARIAN sorceror win, it came down to the fact that A-B was either ignoring, resisting or sundering every spell a wizard could send his way, or one shotting his summoned beasts, getting up to him on the charge and killing him.
Truly. They couldn't find a way to stop him, only to run away.
Then someone came in with a sorceror build, and killed A-B's mount (really, the only viable target) with a no-save, untargeted Druid Spell, Tornado, when A-B charged.
And then it came down to waiting for the landbound A-B's rage to run out and see what happened. I'm not sure A-B can fly on his own, but in that event the sorc just runs away.
Spell Sunder and Superstitious are just that strong.
==Aelryinth
In which book is that spell? I can't seem to find it..
And which level was that at?
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In an effort to derail the thread by actually talking about the topic…an actual comparison.
Both classes are among the most fragile. But Wizards add in the added vulnerability of spellbooks (and possibly bonded objects) and the need to memorize each morning to get new spells. But again, both of them are fragile relative to the other classes. Advantage Sorcerer
Wizards get access to many, many more spells than the Sorcerer. And they generally get them a level sooner. But access doesn’t mean availability. If a sorcerer has a useful spell, they can cast that useful spell over and over again without needing extra feats or items to do so. Sorcerers will generally have memorized the most frequently used spells, and be able to cast them over and over as needed. Wizards have a better opportunity to have that perfect spell, but they also have a better opportunity to have already used it that day and therefore not have it to use later.
In a planned single combat against a known foe, major advantage Wizard.
In an extended battle, or series of battles, where a useful spell might be needed more than once, minor advantage sorcerer. Overall minor advantage Wizard
Wizards get bonus spells and school powers. Sorcerers get bloodlines. Push.
Intelligence gives extra skill points, leading to more skills. It also can get your knowledge high enough to know the right spell at the right time. Charisma raises your social skills and can be very useful in heavy role play campaigns. Minor advantage Wizards.
Overall: Circumstantial Push.
So, provide links to these alleged builds.
Behold, I see the build just fine!
It's an elf. With an ioun stone. And two traits. Eastern Mysteries, what's that?
Where's your build? If you can't post your build in your next post, you concede.
I removed some posts. Let's try to act like grown-ups.
Of course tactics change if the barbarian is wearing boots of flying - but not soooo much.
Dispel?
I'm starting to feel embarrased for you all. There is one poster, one single poster, disagreeing with you all about sorcerers vs. wizards. The offer has been made by him to stop this vapid posturing and actually compare builds. I think his offer to allow the readers to judge for themselves which build is better is very gutsy considering the hostility he`s faced in this forum· Yet, the whole lot of you are unwilling to direct him to actual builds at that meet his suggestion for comparison (8th, 12th, and 16th levels).
It makes me regret the time I spend on these boards
CP is doing just that actually. You seem to be glossing over anything that doesn't directly support your view. Have you considered a career as a US senator?
I'm starting to feel embarrased for you all. There is one poster, one single poster, disagreeing with you all about sorcerers vs. wizards. The offer has been made by him to stop this vapid posturing and actually compare builds. I think his offer to allow the readers to judge for themselves which build is better is very gutsy considering the hostility he`s faced in this forum· Yet, the whole lot of you are unwilling to direct him to actual builds at that meet his suggestion for comparison (8th, 12th, and 16th levels).
It makes me regret the time I spend on these boards
I see some builds in here. And I have seen quite some offers from people to post their builds if the one person actually would do more than argue with Leadership (the feat noone allows and whichs very existance in the CRB is questionable) and some "if then" arguments that he always has the right scroll and always has enough HPs and always... I dunno.
Yet I have to see the one build to rule them all from LT.
I would especially be interested in the uber HPs while having 6 skillpoints while having 18-20 starting Cha and so on Sorcerer build he advertises so strongly.
Not that I dislike Sorcerers... if they got rid of their 1 level lagging behind the wizard progression I would play ONLY Sorcerers (instead of any class, not just Wizard ;) ).
EDIT: And no I won't search for these posts and quote them for you just to make you realize they do exist. Do it yourself or read more carefully the first time.
But a little teaser:
And again - I'll take you up on your optimization challenge. Build me a sorceror that matches my 11th level wizard build submitted in the am barbarian thread, or the dazing wizard build I presented in RavingDork's blaster thread.
I see a request for a link to cp`s build and lt`s request for that link being mocked by Minty Fresh,CP is doing just that actually. You seem to be glossing over anything that doesn't directly support your view. Have you considered a career as a US senator?I'm starting to feel embarrased for you all. There is one poster, one single poster, disagreeing with you all about sorcerers vs. wizards. The offer has been made by him to stop this vapid posturing and actually compare builds. I think his offer to allow the readers to judge for themselves which build is better is very gutsy considering the hostility he`s faced in this forum· Yet, the whole lot of you are unwilling to direct him to actual builds at that meet his suggestion for comparison (8th, 12th, and 16th levels).
It makes me regret the time I spend on these boards
Start from the beginning and try again.
Oh right, I remember you. You were the guy who flunked out of metamagic 101 by stating putting heighten on top of dazing made a 2nd level spell have a 6th level spell dc instead of a third, and also took spell perfection multiple times, right?
Aerylinth, we found you a friend!
Excuse me, I don't argue Spell DC's go up on MM'd spells. Well, +1 if you're a sorc arcane.
=========For the Poster wondering about the AM BARBARIAN sorceror win, it came down to the fact that A-B was either ignoring, resisting or sundering every spell a wizard could send his way, or one shotting his summoned beasts, getting up to him on the charge and killing him.
Truly. They couldn't find a way to stop him, only to run away.
Then someone came in with a sorceror build, and killed A-B's mount (really, the only viable target) with a no-save, untargeted Druid Spell, Tornado, when A-B charged.
And then it came down to waiting for the landbound A-B's rage to run out and see what happened. I'm not sure A-B can fly on his own, but in that event the sorc just runs away.
Spell Sunder and Superstitious are just that strong.
==Aelryinth
I was talking to cp about the metamagic rule thing (He claimed on record that you can take a level 2 spell, dazing it for 3 levels, and then heighten it one more to 6th and end up with a 6th spell level DC instead of a 3rd level DC), but yeah. There is a fallback plan considering what we know of AM for the ground war, but again, this is Wizard vs Sorc and I'd rather not derail it.
B. But that issue really is a red herring. There was no answer from the AM barbarian crowd on how they were going to handle a dc30 reflex save at 11th level.
20 Start Int + 2 bonus + 6 object = +9
SF, GSF, EF, GEF = +4
Qadira Eastern Mysteries +2
Heightened to seventh level spell = +7
= DC 32. Dazing with a rod of dazing.
Look. All you had done was used a flawed interpretation of rules that only works in the event that you squint REALLY hard and tilt your head to the right. thus, all that had been proven is that you can in fact kill AM BARBARIAN if you cheat. Which we knew, Nekogami proved that way earlier in the thread.
Since your argument was irrelevant due to the fact that it had been shown you were cheating, the only remaining thing I could get out of it with AM is humor value, and I just had done a AM BARBARIAN DO THAT TOO joke with Nekogami.
In short, there was no reason to continue a discussion with you. Sorry if you felt burned, but there was no rational or humor-based merit in doing so, cp.
That said, wasn't your wizard level 11? How are you casting a 7th level spell?
Again, cheating, which anyone can win if they do. More to the point, how does a level 11 character have a greater metamagic rod to cast that level 7 spell and a +6 int item at level 11 with your 82,000gp limit?
Again, cheating. Which anyone can win if they do.
Since I have already established there is no humor to be found in continuing to pursue this subject (As this is a joke I have already done) and the point has already been made, you will have to pardon me if I proceed to ignore the snot out of you and anything you have to say, much the same as you should do to me should you not wish to lose your mind. It is hard dealing with someone this awesome and manly, I know. (I have to do it every day I look into the mirror)
Good day, sir.