Because they eventually get all the spells. Also they (generally) only need one casting of certain spells (mage armor for example). They don't need to cast everrything all day long. my 2C
the spell level aspect is probably the main thing.
wizard players usually can pick spells that they won`t `waste`,
and at high levels can leave a few slots empty to memorize `mid-day`.
wizard school/universalist abilities are probably over-all rated as better than bloodlines.
(especially given that you can gain bloodline powers, if not arcana, via Eldritch Heritage Feats)
alot of people like the extra skills from maxing INT, and see a high CHA modifier as less valuable over-all. (helps for certain things though, esp. Leadership)
and Arcane Bond and some other Feats actually do allow Wizards some Spontaneous Casting (often from a much larger pool of spells vs. Sorcerors), which can cover the situations where Spontaneous is VERY useful (i.e. you don`t need Spontaneous to know that you will cast Mage Armor for example). The price/pay-back for Pearls of Power is generally more do-able than Rings of Wizardry.
but plenty of people like sorcerors better... i wouldn`t worry about it, play what you like.
There are a couple of different reasons. First, sorcs adding meta's do so at the cost of drastically extending the casting time of most spells (other than the Quicken Meta). Also, sorcs have less spells. If you play in the kind of game where a certain spell or two is always the best solution, or you plan to play a blaster, then sorc is often the best choice. OTOH, a wizard with a skilled player who can make blanket spell lists for most situations and custom-fit a -perfect- spell list with just one day forewarning makes for a versatile tool that one can never predict.
For example, you know Seoni's answer to a problem is going to be to nuke it with fire. Ezren's answer is often much less predictable. It's not so much a matter of which is 'more powerful', it's a matter of which playstyle their player prefers. It's not as big of a difference as it was in 3.5 imo because sorcs got the neat bloodlines now, but as a 'general' tendency, players tend to go for the wizards. Versatility is a VERY powerful tool.
Of course, I think they both need to take a seat for the witch, but that's just me. =D
Why are so many people a fan of the wizard when compared to the sorc in terms of spell casting?
Wizards have fewer spells per day and has to prepare them ahead of time. This can result in preparing spells completely useful for that day or not having a spell prepared which is critical. The only real advantage I see is the ability to get higher level spells 1 level earlier than the sorc. Am I missing something? Perhaps someone can explain the popularity difference?
1) Versatility.
2) Lots of spells you want occasionally, but aren't good enough to be one of only a couple spells you will ever know of that level.
3) Lots more skills (indirectly, since you want INT instead of CHR... and nobody go all Sage on me here)
4) Higher level spells faster.
5) Because of (4), "Sorcerer has more spells per day" isn't strictly true, and even when it is true the two are pretty neck and neck.
Not that I'm saying the sorcerer is bad, but playing one I personally really, really miss the strengths of wizard a lot.
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Also something people miss out on all the time. Wizards do not have to prepare all of their spells in advance. If you leave open even one spell slot each level you can then take 15 minutes to prepare those spells later and have the right spell at the right time for the right job. Versatility is king in many games and the sorcerer sucks at it.
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"spends move action to draw a popcorn bag and a standard action to get the marshmallows."
Edit: This Thread is probably as good as a Summon Treantmonk Spell.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Scribe Scroll. For free. At 1st level.
Yeah, see invisibility is useful to have. Do you want to prep it every day? Probably not. Scribe a scroll and stuff it in your scroll case. How about scrying? Probably not using that one every day either. Scribe a scroll or two, stuff it in the scroll case. Overland flight? Darkvision? Tongues? Scrolls, scrolls, scrolls!
"But Fatespinner, a sorcerer could just take the Scribe Scroll feat too."
Of course they could, but they'd need to allocate some of their precious "spells known" to actually having the spell in question before they can scribe it. A wizard with a bit of downtime is the ultimate swiss army knife.
Then, with a scroll case full of divinations and a transmutation or three, he fills all his ACTUAL spell slots with offense/defense magic as needed, kinda like a sorcerer would have, and he gets higher level spells sooner to boot.
That, my friends, is the advantage of the wizard.
EDIT: Partially ninja'd by Kalyth.
It's not as big of a difference as it was in 3.5 imo because sorcs got the neat bloodlines now,
This is just not convincing to me.
Wizards also gained a bunch of School Powers... which are generally better than the Bloodlines.Specialists` Cross-School limitations have been weakened alot as well, making those easier to play.
So the water was raised for all, but if one believes the core aspects of Wizards are better than Sorceror, nothing changed in that respect.
Some of the new Sorceror abilities are just now achievable via Feats, along with limited Spontaneous Casting.
That said, I don`t worry about that stuff and have no problem playing a Sorceror.
Just because `1 legged devil-worshipping ninja juggler who smells bad` may be the mechanically best option doesn`t mean I want to role-play that all the time.
If you can get thru APL-appropriate challenges, there isn`t really a problem.
I just wish they didn`t skimp on the skills so much (given CHA vs. INT focus) ...and HD should probably be higher too. (or Wizards should be d4)
I think Battle Sorceror is a nice Archetype from 3.5, and nice if you want to use Sorceror as base of Dragon Disciple.
(OK, it`s ONLY nice for that or Eldritch Knight :-) )
Sorcerors will generally want to buy some Scrolls to cover `utility`/niche cases they don`t want to spend a Spell Known on. Given Spells Known can now be `updated` every couple levels, putting the old one into some scrolls/wands (possibly with the cooperation of somebody who has the Item Creation Feat) is something to consider for Sorcs.
EDIT: Paizo has also tended to focus more on stuff only applicable to Wizards, Arcane Discoveries, Archetypes, Magus is based off of Wizard casting not Sorceror, Gunmage, etc... I guess they themselves believe the bit about `hey Sorcerors have Bloodlines now, that`s good enough!` ignoring that Wizards have equal or more class abilities and options.
I do make sure when playing a Wizard with low CHA to actually play that out... That can be arrogant and isolated, or well-intentioned but socially clueless or bully-able, but I think it`s important for low CHA to have repurcussions just as high CHA does. Also, there ARE some mechanics which depend specifically on CHA score, and making sure those come into play will help Sorcerors out.
Different players care about different things when making a character. Some try to make a powerful character, and don't care if it's unique, freely accepting advice from online guides. Others want a unique character, and don't particularly care about power level. Some prefer male characters, good characters, charismatic characters, mysterious characters, etc.
When the thing a player desires most creative problem solving, or the ability to use a wide variety of tools to succeed, they are likely to select a Cleric or Wizard. Prepared/Vancian casting is difficult to manage well, making even a "typical" day of adventuring into a resource management puzzle with the possibility of failure to the point of uselessness (has all the wrong spells prepared), or success to the point of dominance (has exactly the right spells prepared and applied them wisely).
When measured by that scale, playing a Sorcerer is much like playing a Fighter or Rogue than it is like playing a Wizard.
When measured by that scale, playing a Sorcerer is much like playing a Fighter or Rogue than it is like playing a Wizard.
I agree with this.
For both kinds of caster, your most crucial "game skill" decision is picking which spells you'll be carrying.
A wizard makes those decisions every day (and more of them); a sorcerer makes them once per level.
In a sense the wizard takes more skill because he can't pick among his known spells on the fly (mostly), and in a sense the sorcerer takes more skill because if he's missing a spell he can't just survive for a day and then have it.
People talk about `Blaster Sorcerors` being the most common...
I NEVER play Sorcerors like that...
Even look at the Bloodlines are plenty of Bloodlines would help with other things (like Enchantment).
I find that picking the `generally useful spells` goes a long way as a Sorceror, just as much for Wizards.
You CAN play `Blaster Sorcerors`, but so also can you play a Blaster Wizard.
And now for a completely different answer.
The stutter-step in Sorcerer spell progression should not be underestimated. Whenever you're playing at an odd level, a Wizard will have access to a tier of magic inaccessible to a Sorcerer. The Sorcerer's advantage of having more spells per day available at each level pales in comparison.
Level 5 Wizard (Specialist, Bonded Object, INT 20)
Level 1 spells/day = 5
Level 2 spells/day = 4
Level 3 spells/day = 4
Total spells/day = 13
Level 5 Sorcerer (CHA 20)
Level 1 spells/day = 7
Level 2 spells/day = 5
Level 3 spells/day = 0
Total spells/day = 12
Not only does the Wizard have more spells/day, but four of them can be Fly, Haste, Fireball, Dispel Magic, or other powers the Sorcerer doesn't have access to. Granted, the Sorcerer does catch up in total spells/day over time, but the top few levels of castable spells follow this pattern through leveling. The fact that a 17th level Sorcerer can cast more 1st level spells than a 17th level Wizard still doesn't make up for Wish.
More Skill Points: Because of Int, a Wizard gains many additional skill points. This probably matters more for PFS than campaigns.
And of course Wizards have a wider variety of spells, to deal with any situation, if he knows what's coming.
The fact that a 17th level Sorcerer can cast more 1st level spells than a 17th level Wizard still doesn't make up for Wish.
Add to that all the cool items like the Pearl of Power that the wizard can use that the sorcerer can't. It's pretty cheap in terms of wealth for the 17 wizard to actually cast more level 1 spells in a day than the 17th sorcerer.
There really should be spontaneous caster analogs or other cool things they get that the prepared guys miss in Core, but there aren't.
I like Sorcerers because I like Charisma as a stat more than I do Intelligence.
Now... can I bring myself to build a sorcerer I like? I've tried, I really have, but I have a hard time arriving at a build I'd play over a wizard or a Witch (I love witches) or a Cleric.
It comes down to the facts as other people have already stated; Wizards dont really get fewer spells, Intelligence is a better stat than Charisma, even for Charisma based skills really, and Wizards get equivalent benefits from schools (and what benefits aren't equivalent, they can pirate via Crossblooded sorcerer and be ahead of a sorcerer on spell progression with the same benefits...). So there is little reason to actually touch a Sorcerer...
Now, if only we could get a Charisma based Witch...
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Being a level behind is just worse in terms of spell level castable.
The printed special abilities for wizards has been better
High Int (skill points) is more flexible than high Cha (very small subset of skills) in terms of game mechanics
Also, more skills favor int.
So, with Sorc you get weaker abilities, worse progression, and a worse attribute.
Paizo did better with oracle, who still has 2 of these issues, but makes up with powerful class abilities (including many that actually make Cha more worhwhile).
Paizo did better with oracle, who still has 2 of these issues, but makes up with powerful class abilities (including many that actually make Cha more worhwhile).
Oracles are much closer. Charisma substitution for things like AC are a huge benefit.
Again, there is an issue in that these can be pirated by people dipping in Oracle for a level; this is worse if you consider that you can get as many Revelations as you need via feats...
Oops, Sorcerer's lose on that too! Eldritch Heritage; great idea, and makes Sorcerer's even more obsolete...
Now, if only we could get a Charisma based Witch...
I was disappointed that Witch wasn't wisdom based.
I'd also love to see a divine caster based on intelligence. You could call it a Theologian, perhaps.
Scribe Scroll. For free. At 1st level.
THIS is the BIIIIIG reason for me. I want to play a spellcaster who can do just the right thing to sway the combat at ANY time. Our group has downtime, so scribing scrolls is easy to do. My Wizard 2/Bard 1 had over 30 spells for our recent adventure thanks to scrolls.
Note too that Scribing Scrolls is the most cost efficient way to have spells available as magic items. For the cost of buying the equivalent Wand you can scribe 60 scrolls, though you are not burdened with having spent all that gold on the other 30-something uses of the spell you may not ever use from the want. It is a lot more efficient to scribe two scrolls.
It is cheaper to scribe the scroll then purchase any magic item.
Yes, it is cheaper when you have the appropriate Item Creation feat, but it costs you a feat, a feat you could have put into Dodge, or Weapon Focus (Ray) or ...?
All very good points in favor of the Wizard.
But there's still a part of me that dislikes the 'fire and forget' aspect of Wizardry.
If you can live to higher levels as a Sorcerer, you can put together a substantial spells known list. You can have a 13th level Sorcerer that knows 8 spells/level thru his 5th level spells, plus 4 - 6th level spells. I find that there's not many more spells that I would want beyond that. This is a specific build, however (human, arcane, expanded arcana feat x2).
Not receiving equivalent higher level spells as the Wizard does really bite, though.
Oh, and you can definitely optimize a Sorcerer.
Personally I absolutely love sorcerers and would play one over a wizard or witch any day.
I love not needing a spellbook/familiar.
I love that I can get my Use Magic Device skill very high to have a form of access to all spells... not just Wizard spells mind you. Sure the Wizard can make a big fat Spellbook (stealable of course) and know all the spells on his list (at a cost, you don't get many for free unless your GM likes to use Spellbooks as loot, which still isn't free since it is instead of other things) sure he can prepare what he knows he will need and scribe some scrolls for the less commonly needed spells...
But I can know the spells I want the most (at no cost) and buy some scrolls for other things, even off completely different spell lists.
If I come across a situation where I want to use one of my spells over and over, I can. If I come across a situation where I want to use a variety of my spells, I can. A Wizard has to pick one or the other at the start of the day.
I enjoy the concept of bloodlines more than schools.
People have mentioned that anyone can get a bloodline thanks to Eldritch Heritage... but there is no `can`t be a sorcerer`limitation on the feat, I can have 2 bloodlines! Crossblooded archetype I could have 3!
All in all, Sorcerers are much more fun for me, for these reasons and many others.
Of course, I love Oracles waaay more than either anyway :P
These are all really one point, but who better knows which classes are more powerful than the munchkins? If balance is a goal at all, and enough people want it to be to support some absurdly large threads, then surely the munchkins should be listened to when they say prepared casters are better than spontaneous casters.It seems like people interested in optimization never go sorceror1. Don't take messageboard response as the norm. Doing so is the best way to lose interest in playing this game.
2. There's optimisation, min-max numbercrunching, and sheer munchkinism, learn to differentiate between them.
3. Not everyone hold optimisation as the one value above others. For instance my elven magus uses... *gasp* a longsword!
Point #2 is not the same as points 1 & 3. If you don't distinguish between these concepts, further discussion of optimization may be futile.
I played a sorcerer from 1st to 21st in a 3.x game a few years ago. It was new to me at the time, and looked like fun. This was before the PF improvements to the class, and it was the only arcane caster in the party.
He totally pwned. I'm not that great a player, either, but I always had something to contribute in practically every encounter.
Ahem....
*throws wrench*
Human Sage Sorcerer.
If you go sorc, why play anything else?
And if you signature spell ennervation with thanatopic spell on hand, why would you need any other damage spell?
Human Sage Sorcerer.
If you go sorc, why play anything else?And if you signature spell ennervation with thanatopic spell on hand, why would you need any other damage spell?
Because you like the other Bloodline abilities better?
Such as a Familiar for the BL that Sage Wildbloodline is based off of?You might want another damage dealing spell if you want to do more than 5d4 damage to a single target with a Ranged Touch attack. Enervation is more of a de-buff than a big damage spell.
Human Sage Sorcerer.
If you go sorc, why play anything else?And if you signature spell ennervation with thanatopic spell on hand, why would you need any other damage spell?
Because you like the other Bloodline abilities better?
Such as a Familiar for the BL that Sage Wildbloodline is based off of?You might want another damage dealing spell if you want to do more than 5d4 damage to a single target with a Ranged Touch attack. Enervation is more of a de-buff than a big damage spell.
We are comparing mechanical power here, not what we "like".
And yeah, you would want other damage spells, but ennervation is a solid core.
We are comparing mechanical power here, not what we "like".
Great, but plenty of other BLs have good abilities/arcana/spells, and Sage is giving up Arcane Bond for a ranged touch attack, and giving up a DC boost for using INT instead of CHA. Plenty of reason not to pick it merely for crunch reasons.
Ahem....
*throws wrench*
Human Sage Sorcerer.
If you go sorc, why play anything else?
And if you signature spell ennervation with thanatopic spell on hand, why would you need any other damage spell?
Because having a high Charisma rocks? Leadership is the most powerful feat in the game. Charisma makes Charm Person/Monster scarry powerful. Bluff (based on Charisma) synergizes exceptionally well with illusions. High Charisma makes Planer Binding much more easy to do. High Charisma, also, is very helpful with UMD.
The only full spellcaster which beat AM BARBARIAN in the recent thread was my Sorcerer. He did it by taking advantage of his high Charisma wrt UMD.
Hmm... Leadership is cool, but its also probably the most banned option in the game...
What is Cha good for without that feat? Well, basically just Umd... But is a +7 to umd worth trading 7 languages and 7 maxed ranked skills?
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From the last time this subject was broached:
Here’s a breakdown of Spells Known for the Sorcerer, Arcane Bloodline, Human, using Favored Class Benefit: Extra Spell Known.
Level 20: Base spells Known is: 9(cantrips)+5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
Bonus Spells from Bloodline, +1 for each level: Identify, Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Greater Teleport, Power Word Stun, Wish.
At 9th, 13th, and 17th, you get a bonus Spell Known. We’ll assume a 4th, 6th and 8th level spell.
The Human Favored Class gives you +1 Spell Known, of 1 level less then the highest level you can cast. So basically, you get 3 hit points (levels 1-3) unless you want more cantrips, and then +2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3, for an effective +17 Spells Known.
Without stats, magic items or spells, you now have:
12 + 8/8/7/8/7/7/6/8/4, + Potential Arcane Bond (basically, cast 1 Any Spell Known 1/day), +3 varied feats from a short list.
That’s quite a few Spells Known.
Also note a weird effect. IF the sorcerer goes into Epic levels, she keeps getting more Spells Known via Favored Class at EVERY level. If she opens up 10th+ spell slots, these can be 9th or higher level spells, too!
For Spells Castable, at 20th we have 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6. With a starting Cha of 16, human bonus +2, +5 levels, +5 inherent from the Wish spell she can cast, +6 headband, we end up with a 34 Cha, which gives us 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1, for a grand total of:
9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7 Spells Castable per day, and 12 different cantrips, unlimited.
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In contrast, The Wizard:
Gets 4 + 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4. This is 5 + 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 if he’s a specialist, but it costs him some spell flexibility.
He’s WAY behind on cantrips ;)
With a 34 Int (same as sorcs Cha)
5 + 8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6 if he’s a specialist. Hah, cantrips don’t go up via Int.
The Generalist is 4 + 7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5.
He’s got an Arcane Bond (basically cast Desired Spell 1/day) and 4 feats from a better list.
His favored class version if Human gets him more spells for free in his spell book, but doesn’t help with spells available in a fight.
Higher Int gives him +12 skill points per level, so that’s useful. +12 Int bonus will probably mean he’s better at Knowledge skills then a bard, too. (bard bonus max +10).
(Editor's Note: A Sage Human Arcane Sorcerer gets this exact benefit, too, and arguably has a more useful skill list.)
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Yeah, Kinda giving the nod to the human sorcerer here. That Favored Class benefit is huge. And the best thing is all those spells are permanently known, not subject to magic or other effects, and they are ALL DIFFERENT…no repeated spells so you can cast something 2/day.
I’m thinking that with 63 different spells known all the time, there is not going to be much of a problem with ‘specific spell required’ at higher levels…or even at lower ones.
And again, note that the sorcerer Spells Known is not based on stats: She gets them all by level, by Arcane Bloodline, and by human favored class.
Non-humans get substantially fewer spells known, of course…17, to be exact.
Non-Arcane bloodlines learn 3 less spells (4th, 6th, 8th).
===============
In Summation:
The human Sorc will know 63 different spells. the wizard will basically never have more spells known and carried in his head at one time then the sorc, even if he gets them a level earlier.
The wizard only gets 4 spells/level for free. They must spend a not insubstantial amount of gold at every level to expand their spellbook, and if they don't have access to someplace to buy spells, they are stuck with their automatic 4 (unless they want to burn a Favored Class point). That same amount of gold the sorc can spend to acquire some wands, scrolls and staves for utility spells they don't have/can't cast.
And the sorc's spells are available all the time, and spammable. The wizard has to take the risk of not having the right spells for the job ahead.
==Aelryinth
From the last time this subject was broached:
Here’s a breakdown of Spells Known for the Sorcerer, Arcane Bloodline, Human, using Favored Class Benefit: Extra Spell Known.
Level 20: Base spells Known is: 9(cantrips)+5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3
Bonus Spells from Bloodline, +1 for each level: Identify, Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, True Seeing, Greater Teleport, Power Word Stun, Wish.
At 9th, 13th, and 17th, you get a bonus Spell Known. We’ll assume a 4th, 6th and 8th level spell.
The Human Favored Class gives you +1 Spell Known, of 1 level less then the highest level you can cast. So basically, you get 3 hit points (levels 1-3) unless you want more cantrips, and then +2/2/2/2/2/2/2/3, for an effective +17 Spells Known.
Without stats, magic items or spells, you now have:
12 + 8/8/7/8/7/7/6/8/4, + Potential Arcane Bond (basically, cast 1 Any Spell Known 1/day), +3 varied feats from a short list.
That’s quite a few Spells Known.
Also note a weird effect. IF the sorcerer goes into Epic levels, she keeps getting more Spells Known via Favored Class at EVERY level. If she opens up 10th+ spell slots, these can be 9th or higher level spells, too!
For Spells Castable, at 20th we have 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6. With a starting Cha of 16, human bonus +2, +5 levels, +5 inherent from the Wish spell she can cast, +6 headband, we end up with a 34 Cha, which gives us 3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1, for a grand total of:
9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7 Spells Castable per day, and 12 different cantrips, unlimited.
----------------------------
In contrast, The Wizard:Gets 4 + 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4. This is 5 + 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 if he’s a specialist, but it costs him some spell flexibility.
He’s WAY behind on cantrips ;)
With a 34 Int (same as sorcs Cha)
5 + 8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6 if he’s a specialist. Hah, cantrips don’t go up via Int.
The Generalist is 4 + 7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5.He’s got an Arcane Bond (basically cast Desired Spell 1/day) and 4 feats from a better list.
His...
You win! Congrats! LOL
We are comparing mechanical power here, not what we "like".Great, but plenty of other BLs have good abilities/arcana/spells, and Sage is giving up Arcane Bond for a ranged touch attack, and giving up a DC boost for using INT instead of CHA. Plenty of reason not to pick it merely for crunch reasons.
Maybe... But I think cha is the crappiest stat in dnd, and paizo did little to fix that.
In either case if you are comparing sorcerers to wizards, using int vs cha isnt as valid when sorcs have the option now.
And the arcane bloodline relinquishes to some degree the defect of spontaneous casting and metamagic.
Finally, being human gives you 20 more spells known, two more spells per spell level than the wizard gets, and you get it automatically with no effort or gold cost.
You also have the advantage of being a universalist, and you still have more spells per day...
I think a human sage is a strong contender.
Edit: Go Aelryinth!
[a very good comparison]
...though I'd like to see the break down at level 3 where a lot of games start, and at level 7 where a lot of games end. If I find time today I'll even post it myself.
I am shouldn't be surprised that the Sorcerer is on par* with the Wizard, Paizo has done a good job of keeping the classes relatively balanced. All in all, I think the two classes seem quite even by level 20.
* I'm sure Wizard could be further optimised than in the example given to have more spells than the Sorcerer by level 20.
The wizard has to take the risk of not having the right spells for the job ahead.
I disagree on this point though. By Level 20 the Wizard should have so many scrolls in her Handy Haversack that she needn't ever worry about not having the right spell.
Only competitive sorcerer to a wizard is a human sorcerer using APG favored race ability.
Only competitive sorcerer to a wizard is a human sorcerer using APG favored race ability.
So, taking that into account a wizard might have slightly better spell penetration by being an elf... And more hp...
I think that ARF pushed sorcs into the lead myself, especially on even levels.
So, taking that into account a wizard might have slightly better spell penetration by being an elf... And more hp...
The elf thing kind of cancels out with the HPs from favored class bonus :-)