I'm looking to build an encounter where the PCs will encounter an enemy that they are not supposed to be strong enough to kill- the hope being that they fight, lose, and then come back at a later time when they're more powerful. But in my experience, parties will never back down or give up until all of them are dead, and nothing short of one-shotting a PC will get the idea into their heads that the enemy is too powerful for them to beat. Has anyone out there specifically ran an encounter like this? And if so, how did it go? Any advice?
I'd prefer to stay away from hand-waving (such as just giving the enemy DR 50/- or simply saying "your attacks do nothing"), as I'd like it to be a fair fight for a higher-level party, but at the moment early in a campaign I'd like for the enemy to be unbeatable.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
In our last game our DM tried something like this sadly it ended with our party taking a stand vs an endless werewolf army that we couldn't beat. So unless you can somehow convey to your players that it is a fight that they have no hope of wining they will more then likely fight to the death.
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I'm looking to build an encounter where the PCs will encounter an enemy that they are not supposed to be strong enough to kill- the hope being that they fight, lose, and then come back at a later time when they're more powerful. But in my experience, parties will never back down or give up until all of them are dead, and nothing short of one-shotting a PC will get the idea into their heads that the enemy is too powerful for them to beat. Has anyone out there specifically ran an encounter like this? And if so, how did it go? Any advice?
I'd prefer to stay away from hand-waving (such as just giving the enemy DR 50/- or simply saying "your attacks do nothing"), as I'd like it to be a fair fight for a higher-level party, but at the moment early in a campaign I'd like for the enemy to be unbeatable.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
you and i both, players have a detached mentality from their characters. most people would retreat from a mob of orcs or a big huge dinosaur... but you have to remember that these are people who are fearless because they are sitting on a couch. so i guess you might try making a cr encounter that is well above there head, then hint out of game that the guy is epic. that might get them to run away. the only time i ever accomplished something similar to this was when i put a level 20 blight druid versus a level 10 party of 4.. lets just say if the blight druid was a more aggressive antagonist they would have died, but i made him a more passive enemy.
long story short it took them about an hour of trying to stop the druid before they got the hint that he could whip them 2 ways from sunday. i had to reverse gravity the front line fighter then let him fall to his death. i think pride also plays a part in not running away, so maybe throw in a little humiliation on the leader character?
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You can use NPCs to strenghten your point. For example, the PCs meet a super-powerful friendly NPC and he gets thrashed by the BBEG before the PCs can even take any action. Or he flees in abject fear while telling them to run for their lives after seeing who/what the BBEG is.
Also, you can have the BBEG casually beat them within an inch of their lives and spare them because the PCs are not worth killing. Or maybe he stands back and lets his minions deal with the PCs (and beat them with not much effort to within an inch of their lives).
The latter could be the better as it will both show the PCs how powerful the BBEG is and deeply wound their pride as he finds them not worthy of his efforts. You will be surprised to what lengths PCs will go to avenge being humiliated.
Or simply put, hammer them until they are about to break, let them 'win' some space, and then tell them more bad guys are on the way.
As long as they have a few still standing they will usually retreat.
I'm looking to build an encounter where the PCs will encounter an enemy that they are not supposed to be strong enough to kill- the hope being that they fight, lose, and then come back at a later time when they're more powerful.
Planning sth. like this is questionable at best. It is better to not plan for the players actions in such a detailed way. You will end up curtailing their freedom of shaping the events / the story and lessen their overall enjoyment of the game.
That said, it is OK to introduce an enemy who is way too powerful for the players. Just don't drop him on them without some warning / information. Let them decide if they try to confront him anyway (with good planning, maybe they are even successful!), to flee from him or to deal with the situation in some other way.
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I had this planned for a adventure before, my easy fix for this was to have the bad guy full on own and kill them. Then they were sent to there respective gods and given a 2nd chance, this was a mid to epic level campaign. The party gained 5 levels participating in the worlds unfolding events and eventually cought up with their killer.
Beat on them with non-lethal damage, or knock them down but not dead. Instead of having the PCs run, let them just lie there while the enemy wanders off.
I tried this idea recently, trying to establish a new recurring villain. I created three NPCs 4 and 5 levels above the party. The were built to work together, and they had some surprising abilities the party weren't expecting (one was a half-dragon).
They were meant to beat the snot out of the PCs and leave them a message from the rival gang. Instead the party mopped the floor with my 3 NPCs, who retreated with their tails between their legs, yelling back to the PCs their message.
The encounter lacked all the intimidation and threat I hoped for, but I do have a recurring villain. Friendly NPCs are in awe that the party survived knowing who they faced.
My 3 NPCs will return with more friends next time.
So my advice is to make sure your NPCs have enough hit points to make an escape.
Also beware that Action Economy - that is how the 6 PCs at level 6 hammered 3 NPCs at level 10 & 11.
Another idea is to verbalise your rolls. The players may be scared when you say, "So I rolled a 5, does 27 hit your AC?"
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One of the hardest things to do as a GM is to get your players to run or to capture them. Players are far more likely to fight to the death against overwhelming odds even when doing so would be patently stupid.
One of the ways it might work is to set up a friendly NPC as being obviously more powerful than the PC's, a king's champion, a mighty wizard or similar. Then run a narrative combat that the players witness whereby said powerful NPC is slaughtered by your big bad without breaking sweat.
If the players decide to jump in let the allied NPC say something like "No! He's too powerful." Then it is imperative that you give the players a constructive course of action to achieve such as:
"No! He's too powerful. Get the princess out of here!"
Or
"No! He's too powerful. He must be after the disks of Aroden! Take them and run!"
Then you can run a series of encounters with the minions of the big bad. That way your players know that the BBEG is beyond their abilities but that they are doing something to foil his evil scheme.
What you shouldn't do is get them to fight him directly. Your players will never run because they won't see this as constructive. No player wants to lose but they will accept a different definition of success.
I'm looking to build an encounter where the PCs will encounter an enemy that they are not supposed to be strong enough to kill- the hope being that they fight, lose, and then come back at a later time when they're more powerful. But in my experience, parties will never back down or give up until all of them are dead, and nothing short of one-shotting a PC will get the idea into their heads that the enemy is too powerful for them to beat. Has anyone out there specifically ran an encounter like this? And if so, how did it go? Any advice?
I'd prefer to stay away from hand-waving (such as just giving the enemy DR 50/- or simply saying "your attacks do nothing"), as I'd like it to be a fair fight for a higher-level party, but at the moment early in a campaign I'd like for the enemy to be unbeatable.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Some people just dont run ever. If your group is in this category you may have to find another way to showcase the monster's power. As an example have them get into a tussle with an enemy that should be a boss level fight. Maybe 3 or 4 NPC's who are the same level as the PC's, possibly elite soldier of some sort. Have the supermonster defeat these guys without breaking a sweat, and have it defeat a lot of more of them than the PC's could handle. As an example if the PC's fight 4 of these NPC's let the story that is relayed to the PC's say the monster took on 12 or more, and was barely scratched.
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Have them learn the hard way that their enemy is out of their league, without going lethal - high damage dished out at a consistent rate, but their enemy does not deal the killing blow, is distracted by surrounding events without being affected by attacks, does not consider the PCs like threats, etc.
Use NPCs as needed: cannon fodder in highly cinematic scenes is sometimes enough.
If anything else fails, go for a kill, done without even a sweat (but try to avoid this).
But foremost: do not assume the players will understand your plot. They do not think your way. They're not interested in doing so. They sometimes (often) want to actively oppose your plot itself.
Such a narrative trick has to be greatly forewarned to be effective. Do not use after level 5.
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I obviously play with natural cowards :)
When we encountered some giant worm thing, I as a Pally charged in, after failing to hit with a high roll and then being hit by one attack which took me from max health down to 2hp, we turned and ran like hell.
I find that players will always attempt to fight no matter how crazy it may seem, however, nothing takes the fight out of a team quicker than seeing the bad guy hit like a truck when the party cannot even land a hit.
Though, if you want to play it safe, it is easiest just to kick the PCs butt till most are unconcious or nearly dead and then have a minion of the BBEG teleport in with an urgent message for its master, a brief converstaion scene and then the bad guy cursing and leaving immediately due to more pressing matters.
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If you want to force the characters to deal with a foe later, remember that you are the GM. You aren't playing the PCs, you are 'playing' the NPCs, whose actions and motivations are 100% under your control.
Make the enemy leave.
The party will therefore *have* to deal with him later.
Don't ever give them total control of the enemies actions. Reserve that for yourself. If the final confrontation with the bad-guy is scheduled for scene 24, he shrugs off the not-yet effective attacks of the party during scene 12, and teleports/word of recalls/is succored/plane shifts/gaseous forms/etc. away.
The game is *crawling* with ways that a foe can leave an encounter, and they don't have to be innate to the character, as anyone can drink a potion of gaseous form or throw down a single use feather token to block an escape passageway or be grabbed by an ally who is capable of flying them away or marvelous paint themselves a trapdoor that is dispelled behind them.
The game is also filled with excuses for why a foe might *choose* to leave an encounter. His augury for the day warned him that he will suffer a great defeat today, and he'll only discover later that the 'great defeat' was fleeing an encounter that he could have trounced. He just secured a relic that is vulnerable and might not survive a pitched conflict, but will benefit him greatly if he can get it to safetly and study it (a dose of an ancient elixir that allows him to perceive the guardians of X, or a scroll that he must decipher to learn the secret location of Y, prompting him to leave before some idiot throws a fireball and destroys his fragile treasure).
Failing that, perhaps there is a mcguffin that makes them unable to attack him in that particular encounter.
An ill-timed wall of force cast by an ally, or left behind as a contingent defense, can leave the bad-guy incapable of attacking the party, or the party of attacking the bad-guy. (Think of the scene in the Phantom Menace, where Darth Maul is trapped on the wrong side of the force fields, pacing angrily because he really, really wants to kill Qui-Gon.) The entire area could start collapsing, and everyone has to flee, and the two factions get separated in the confusion, with the party fleeing out one side of the room, and the bad-guys being believed to have been caught in the collapse, or to have escaped out the sewers. Some fool let the crypt thing out of it's barrow (or triggered the teleportation trap), and it zapped the party *and* the bad-guy with it's teleportation effect, sending everyone away.
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Iconic, well-recognized power monsters are easy to do this with. Have them focused on something other than the PCs, and if the PCs attack just have it do what is necessary to back them off. A party of 10th levels understands they can't beat a huge red dragon, and if they try have it give a bored look, attack a member into submission, insultingly laugh at them / make indignant comments, finish the task at hand, and leave. It's harder if you use obscure, less recognizable creatures. But they will get the hint quickly enough. Just remember the PCs are not the task at hand, and their futile attempts at stopping them are not worthy of attention.
First of all, you need to set up a reliable escape route before the fight begins. Many players don't run because they assess the power of the enemy and decide that escape may be impossible. Running anyway would then be cowardice, not intelligence. Use size to do this, it is the easiest to understand.
The system is working against you on this. Of all RPGs, PF is just not well suited to this kind of thing, you're going to have to compensate.
Fear effects (like dragons have got going) can force a party to flee, but I find this personally distasteful.
To make this kind of encounter work at all, you need to be meta-game honest with the players. The monster should be something the players know they can't handle. Don't make them play guessing games where the prize is character survival. Roll a dragon on the encounter table, then throw it at them and tell them that they will get XP for merely surviving, because they should run.
You can also have wise NPCs who are involved request that the players distract or even make a sincere attempt on a powerful creature. The NPC should stress that if things go bad, the players had better get out of there.
Lastly, mega-powerful but benevolent NPCs can always give the PCs quite a non-lethal damage whooping if that's what you're after.
Like I said above, this system is not very friendly to these kinds of scenarios, since the main variable measures proximity to death and there are very few secondary variables that would advise players to flee and seek a better tactical situation. Also, death is reversible to some extent, which means PCs will stay in the fight even if they start dying; the last man on the field wins the whole fight for his team, even if they are temporarily dead.
It's totally worth doing, by the way. I recommend just flat-out (trying to) kill them, but let them know that's the plan. Once players realize that running is an optimal choice in a truly lethal game, they will run even when they don't need to!
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The system is working against you on this. Of all RPGs, PF is just not well suited to this kind of thing, you're going to have to compensate.
Grabbing a fallen companion in the midst of a melee and attempting to retreat with them seems like a neat idea, until the mechanics of attacks of opportunity, encumbrance, etc. take effect.
Mechanically, attempting to disengage is a great way to get your entire party killed.
Something as simple a timely obscuring mist spell can help in these cases, but I've seen few (well, honestly, *no*) parties that have a prepared 'escape' plan.
If your party doesn't run it's because they've been taught they're unbeatable. A TPK is a learning experience and will set this enemy up as a really powerful and terrifying company of badguys.
The way to swing it is to have the NPC good guys come recover the bodies, sell off some of their equipment for cash and use it to resurrect the party.
Make sure you give them plenty of notice during the fight that it's hopeless though, every time they kill a guy have a couple more run in. They should get the picture, you shouldn't NEED to TPK.
Evil Lincoln brought up a great point, encounter XP should be stressed. It sunk in for me as a player when we got XP just for having sent all the bad guys running away. Full XP and we didn't have to kill anyone. From that point forward I wasn't focused on defeating monsters, I was focused on nailing the encounter.
If your party doesn't run it's because they've been taught they're unbeatable. A TPK is a learning experience and will set this enemy up as a really powerful and terrifying company of badguys.
The way to swing it is to have the NPC good guys come recover the bodies, sell off some of their equipment for cash and use it to resurrect the party.
Make sure you give them plenty of notice during the fight that it's hopeless though, every time they kill a guy have a couple more run in. They should get the picture, you shouldn't NEED to TPK.
This is good advice. Our group runs like hell. A lot. Very often, in fact. This is because our DM is a killer.
If you run, he'll give you experience for being smart, but if you fight something bigger than you with plenty of warning, I hope you enjoy rolling a new character. It's funny actually, since we normally run unless backed into a corner now.
Still a great game, because there are things we can still beat up on, but we tend to think through all of the options, including running before making our decisions. Less of I'm a super hero and can kill anything, more of: I'm a mortal man with mortal flaws and holy s~*& that's an army marching towards us....run!
But the key is warning. Even the very blatant, "Are you sure?" is a really good way to make them think of alternatives.
Yeah I think the old final fantasy, formula works great
beat them senseless, then have them wake up somewhere else
Key points have been mentioned a couple of times already by various people. I'll reiterate what I see as the most important concepts. 1) Viable escape route. Viable being the key word. Many times escaping not only seems cowardly, mechanics make it darn near impossible if you're dragging fallen allies. 2)Don't be subtle. Let them know even if it's meta-game that they have no chance, at current level, against this foe. Frequently for this kind of thing I'll have an NPC running in the group, who will not be subtle about it. Imagine Gandalf before the Bridge of Khazad-dum.
This foe is beyond any of you. RUN!
3)Don't railroad them into the encounter, if a group feels like this is the place they're supposed to be they'll fight to the death almost every time. You have to make sure the encounter feels out of place, surprising, or like it came out of left-field. If they are following a story line and this is where it leads, they're gonna fight until they die.
Evil Lincoln is right. At low levels, it's just darned hard to run away, when most things are at least as fast as your slowest party member. The last time a party I was in ran away, it was because the slower members were already down. The Expeditious Retreat'd bard and the ranger drew the 3 heavy hitting but slow full-plate wearing badguys away from the down but not quite dead yet cleric, wizard and rogue. Once the gap was big enough, the bard circled around and made a (risky) UMD check to use the wizard's scroll of teleport while the ranger used his terrain abilities to lose the badguys.
If you want 'em to run away, they've got to be sure it's actually possible.
Evil Lincoln is right. At low levels, it's just darned hard to run away, when most things are at least as fast as your slowest party member. The last time a party I was in ran away, it was because the slower members were already down. The Expeditious Retreat'd bard and the ranger drew the 3 heavy hitting but slow full-plate wearing badguys away from the down but not quite dead yet cleric, wizard and rogue. Once the gap was big enough, the bard circled around and made a (risky) UMD check to use the wizard's scroll of teleport while the ranger used his terrain abilities to lose the badguys.
If you want 'em to run away, they've got to be sure it's actually possible.
maybe add a fist shake, and "next time you wont be so lucky"
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I'm easily reminded of one experience.
My PC and the rest of the party had gotten completely trounced by an enemy party. Everyone except one had been knocked into negatives, and half of the unconscious were still bleeding out. The enemies, of whom none have fallen yet, call out, "We have no quarrel with you. Surrender, and let us go about our business." The lone standing PC is ready to surrender.
One of the players of a dying PC calls back, "No way! We can still take them!"
Sometimes, NOTHING will make the players surrender. NOTHING. And when they're TPK'ed, they'll call foul. I never write any adventure assuming the PCs will surrender, run away, or any of it.
I have, however, written adventures where the PCs are summarily trounced but not killed by a BBEG who then leaves of his own accord. This serves the purpose of "PCs meet threat that is too big, learn some things about the foe, but survive the encounter to use that knowledge to their benefit later."
Basically, I always assume that the players will never take no for an answer, and prepare for that contingency. Sometimes, they'll take it, and benefit. Sometimes they won't, and they'll cause far more trouble than they should.
you may want to even interject as a dm and just say "this guy looks super powerful...." and go on to explain how much of a bad arse he looks like even say "you may want to run away"
Hit them with a monster fear aura if they are lacking a paladin
One thing I like to do if the players are refusing to retreat is to simply beat them unconcious. I will opt to ignore the rule about subdual damage vs lethal damage in this instance and after having dished out the TPK I will describe a scene where the players are waking up from their wounds with a terrible headache. Maybe even some of their gear is missing if I really want to be nasty about it.
It is exceptionally hard to force a retreat because nothing is beyond a characters ability as far as the player is concerned. A player can be so detatched that they might even trick themselves into thinking they can take an adult dragon while the character is level one.
I had a moment like that in reverse where the party was invading a pouchers camp. After easily dispatching the enemeies the players looked at each other and muttered things about, "These guys were killing dragons?" Had to remind them OOC wise that the enemies were killing wyrmlings and that the players had imagined them tougher than they were. It showed me that the players perception of events is generally skewed in a direction more powerful than things actually are, and the player tends to prepare for that skewed vision.
I would say that part of the problem is that since the 3E era began, having encounters that aren't "level appropriate" has been so utterly demonized that may players just may not even consider that something might be fight they can't win.
This can be very true, depending on the group. I've seen some groups that have played for a while and they are perfectly aware that they are capable of running into things they have no business fighting.
Sandbox is right, a series of long, narrow corridors and fear effects will drive a party in a particular direction long enough for the enemy to leave if they choose to do so.
The NPC suggestion is good too, a couple of shouts from an NPC with levels that they have to leave before "X" happens should be a pretty good clue.
Lastly, mess with terrain. If walls and roofs start crumbling and trees start falling over, (with rolls to avoid being crushed) then the PCs should catch the hint that they need to leave.
a few rounds of completely thwarting their efforts while adding maniacal bad-guy laugh typically works.
Their beatstick can't hit him, their spells fail against their SR or are outright countered, and he spots the rogue like he's walking in a sunlit field with neon lights on. All this while making his BBEG speech about how they can't comprehend his powerlevel or whatever and the message should get through pretty soon, that once this guy goes on the offensive, they are toast.
I've had pretty good success with this at all levels of play, from 1st all the way to my near-epic 20th level game.
Descriptions can be key as well, like for instance, in my longest running scenario, the characters were investigating this undead kingdom buried under this holy city, when they come across a shackled vampire with a rusty broadsword. Seeing that he was a vampire, they attack him. Their biggest beatstick steps up and rolls a 18 on the die and misses by about a mile, which I describe as the Vampire is before you without seeming to move, his sword already trapping yours behind you before you can begin the stroke. That took the wind right out of their sails and they all full-stopped and thought better than to attack him.
That advice segways into this, use player controlled NPCs to show off the baddie. That vampire was a thrall to the Vampire Lord of the realm and was once a Paladin of great renown whom the VL turned as a cruel bit of torment. With some talking and some mojo, they managed to break the domination of the VL and the fallen Paladin joined their ranks. I then gave them his NPC card so they could run him in combat, and their eyes nearly fell out when they saw what he could do, and then they were a bit worried about having to take on his master.
I've done that several times in games, give the players a couple of NPCs to help them out, whose goal it is to save/help the group out of the death trap from the BBEG, then whoop up on them and show the group exactly how powerful they are.
Probably my best result doing this was at the start of my big game. It was our first 3rd edition game, and I gave them all 15th level characters. Then ran a one-nighter where they encounter the two main henchmen of the real BBEG, who proceeded to slaughter the group of 15th level toons, though they managed to escape at even kill one of them in the end. Then I ran the real game with them starting off at 1st level. Later when they ran into those two with their real characters, there was a real tension and worry at the table that the s!%@e had just hit the fan.
In my experience, only simulationist GMs see this (party's fleeing because they realize they're overmatched or seeking terms under the same circumstances) on a reasonably frequent basis without terminally annoying their players.
The big deal is the game contract, be it implicit (usually) or explicit. The gamists have the expectation that if you throw something at them, they can beat it if they fight effectively and hard. Let's not even go into the typical narrativist expectation :-)
The simulationist has no such expectation, and, because his style is less common than the gamist, this is almost always made explicitly clear.
This is mostly true.
The trick is getting gamists to realize that the "game" is the whole campaign, not a single encounter.
Some video games include retreat as an option. If the player's experience of the game is "never use that option, it never pays off" then they will avoid it.
The best fix is an open line of communication between GM and players. Announce that running away is sometimes expected, and they will be rewarded for running when standing ground would be foolhardy. Just tell them. Then prove it. Maybe even allow them one TPK that gets a "replay" so they know what a TPK looks like.
Do not surprise the players with this, that makes it no fun.
One thing I like to do if the players are refusing to retreat is to simply beat them unconcious. I will opt to ignore the rule about subdual damage vs lethal damage in this instance and after having dished out the TPK I will describe a scene where the players are waking up from their wounds with a terrible headache. Maybe even some of their gear is missing if I really want to be nasty about it.If you want to be nasty about it: kill them.
I would find it hard to do otherwise, unless the enemy had a good reason to leave them alive. Almost certainly everything they had on them of value would be taken. Again depending on motivations of the enemy. Some may have reasons to take them alive or to leave them alive and armed. Most won't and I probably won't try to hard to come up with an excuse during or after the fight.
Well, of course the worst thing to do is just kill them, but we are talking about establishing a reputation for the BBEG and fights the party can't / shouldn't win. That, and I was being very general in describing a very situational encounter, one that if it occured there would be motivations and reasons behind the actions.
Another option is to use the good ol' Intimidate skill against the players. Build a BBEG that has just enough feats and skills to spare to make them an Intimitank and scare the PC's off with that, or get them to surrender to the enemy, either one works. Works for melee types, like Fighters or Barbarians. Spell effects like fear are good for casters, but another option are spells like Domination. The most intimidating fight I have ever had was when the parties Warforged Fighter was dominated and turned against the party. We knew well enough to leave the bad guy alone after we nearly wiped to that tactic.
I once had a powerful necromancer BBEG who also specialized in illusions and trickery. Due to his misleading talents, the PCs knew very little about him, only conflicting rumors. The only real consistency was his power, which was as terrifying as he was evil.
When the PCs finally confronted him in his thrown room, they found a giant floating skull made up of black flames, with glowing crimson red eyes that seemed to peer into the very darkest parts of their souls. Next to the giant skull were a pair of solidly built skeletal hands, similarly floating in the air.
The PCs gave a quick monologue about how they were here to stop his vile tyranny over the lands and attacked. In turn, the flaming skull laughed at them, declaring them "fools for thinking they could take on an invincible god."
They attacked with their most powerful spells and abilities, only to have it fly through the incorporeal flames harmlessly (project image*). The necromancer then retaliated by ripping the darkest fear from the PCs' hearts (fear spell) sending a few of them in full retreat. It then snatched up one PC in its bony claws, crushing him with great strength (a pair of crushing hand spells). While two of the PCs fled in terror, one was caught in the monster's grasp having the life crushed out of him. Another PC was quickly bull rushed out the tower window by the other hand. The necromancer's illusion was free to focus on the sole remaining party member: the paladin, who grew ever more flustered that his attacks could not harm the creature before him, even with smite evil.
The necromancer was hiding in a wall all along, casting spells while peering through a peep hole. His illusion DCs were so high, none of the PCs made their saves for a long time. Eventually, the paladin destroyed one of the hands (the only solid thing he realized he could hurt--though another hand quickly formed to replace it), freed his companion, and they both retreated to check on the other party members.
This was a head on confrontation with only a few basic spell combos.
* This was in v3.5 where there was a variant project image that, rather than projecting you, projected anything you wanted, though the spell worked the same way.
I ran this encounter once specifically to smack some sense into my players at the time. I had slated the campaign to climax around level 16ish, but at level 12 the group felt like they could rule the world. The key to being scary is using the world around you - have the BBEG throw things about with magical power. Have him set things on fire with his mind as he trounces something. The idea is to have your players FEEL that this bad guy is powerful... It actually doesn't matter if he really is or not.
Best advice? Think Sith Lord for your first time. Throw them around. Use the terrain to the BBEG's advantage. Throw an ability that hurts one of them a lot, and then encase them in ice. Assault them on their flying ship, and have the BBEG single-handedly crash it. The Sith comparison is that what he does is flashy, impressive, and uses the environment to cause the most damage. If one of them gets close, he smacks them down and then uses THAT character as the next projectile to hit another PC with.
Besides that... Nothing smacks a player into thinking more than an ability they cannot recognize being used in unique ways by their opponent. Give him something that makes him unique - maybe he has a 1/day ability that lets him deal as much damage as he has taken to a single target? Maybe he has a BFG 9000? The possibilities are endless.
They key is honestly to make him visually appealing and impressive. The players imaginations will take it from there.
Do not surprise the players with this, that makes it no fun.
Are you sure about that? I think that is dependent on the players you have. I know that I would hate playing in a game where I knew in advance there would be no surprises. Surprises should happen more often considering how rarely I ever see players attempt to gather intelligence on their enemy.
... But in my experience, parties will never back down or give up until all of them are dead, and nothing short of one-shotting a PC will get the idea into their heads that the enemy is too powerful for them to beat...
There are a couple of issues here.
1) It never occurs to them as a viable option. Partially because it doesn't often happen from the other side either (at least not successfully). How often do the losing monsters successfully run away from the PC's? You may have to prove the concept to them by having the bad guys get away and come back for them.
2) The way PF is set up it is kinda rare for the clearly losing side to be able to run away at least as a group. Yeah the wizard is likely to have some travel spells. A druid is likely to be able to change into something fast enough to have a good chance at evading. A rogue might be able to get away from a low perception enemy if he can get out of sight long enough. But the melee and mobility challenged PC's are probably stuck. Think about it most of the things that can beat you can fly, are fast, have mucho magic, etc... The encounter that they can't beat but can still get away from is kinda rare.
So if you do build an encounter where it is possible, you may hae to clue them into the fact that it is possible.
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My last success in this was two-fold. I had the party encounter their foes earlier in a typical tavern scene. One of our dwarves lost a drinking contest to their thug. Later, when the group of bads ambushed them in the forest, the thug one-shot the pony that was pulling their wagon.
They surrendered.
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A bad guy who sunders stuff might force a party to retreat, or has a pet rust monster.
He's not talking I suspect of surprising them in game, but surprising them in terms of game expectations, which is distinctly metagame. One is enjoyable by most folks, the other generally not.
That is correct, EWHM, thank you.
Surprising the players with content is fine. Surprising the players with GM style almost always engenders resentment. Communicate with your players about the type of game you run, then surprise them with the details.
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Ability damage or drain is a major scare factor. Players DO NOT like that sort of thing. If you really want to scare them, fudge some of roll and let them save, and then say "He was distractd, so a DC20 saves, take a mere 3d6 CON drain instead of 10d6". Things like that scare players because it's something that all players know what it means. Using meta against the players is one of the important tools to hurt/scare them. Or let the casters know with their Spellcraft what he is casting. "Oh he's casting....Summoner Monster 9...", or Gate, or something else really powerful that would scare them.
Overwhelming damage on the 1st action usually affects PCs quite a bit.
The other thing is to actually let them run. Say the opponent is distracted and is not paying attention right now.