When I first say the spellslinger archtype in UC I blinked and popped open a can of WTFBBQSAUCE.
but then a couple weeks later read it over again and I have to say its growing on me. And the weirdest part is its the 4 opposition schools part that is growing on me.
I like the idea of full casting wizards that are restricted in what magic they can use. they can still know everything but they can't just cherry pick the best spells from each school, double slot cost on half the spell list makes you think about getting better use out of spells which aren't as good because they only cost 1 slot not 2.
The only potential downside is the acutal gun which not every GM likes or wants to fit into a campaign, but fortunately with the gun rules as suggested you can treat guns more like a wonderous item, a spellslinger specific weapon which is basically just used for directing spells, unusable by non arcane, and no mundane guns in the world.
what are other people's thoughts on the ole gunwizard ? love it ? hate it ?
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I have no problem with the gunmage, but I do have a problem with the gun.
In my games I'll probably house-rule it to basically be treated as a crossbow for the non-table mechanics. This means no misfire, no "touch AC" nonsense, etc. It tries to give guns a shtick that they don't need. Their shtick should be high base damage and critical and cost of funds, and they already have that. We have a repeating crossbow that can execute flawlessly every time, but a gun fails 10% of the time to the point of causing damage to the weapon? Pshaw!
I have no problem with the gunmage, but I do have a problem with the gun.
In my games I'll probably house-rule it to basically be treated as a crossbow for the non-table mechanics. This means no misfire, no "touch AC" nonsense, etc. It tries to give guns a shtick that they don't need. Their shtick should be high base damage and critical and cost of funds, and they already have that. We have a repeating crossbow that can execute flawlessly every time, but a gun fails 10% of the time to the point of causing damage to the weapon? Pshaw!
the only counter I would say about that is that I like the touch AC aspect specifically for a half BAB class using it e.g. the wizard. They don't have the BAB to be viable as normal ranged weapon attackers but against touch AC they do.
but yeah the gun fail/broken rate is a bit hard to swallow particularly for the gunwizard who can't just pull out a second gun having only attuned to one in the morning.
I have no problem with the gunmage, but I do have a problem with the gun.
In my games I'll probably house-rule it to basically be treated as a crossbow for the non-table mechanics. This means no misfire, no "touch AC" nonsense, etc. It tries to give guns a shtick that they don't need. Their shtick should be high base damage and critical and cost of funds, and they already have that. We have a repeating crossbow that can execute flawlessly every time, but a gun fails 10% of the time to the point of causing damage to the weapon? Pshaw!
the only counter I would say about that is that I like the touch AC aspect specifically for a half BAB class using it e.g. the wizard. They don't have the BAB to be viable as normal ranged weapon attackers but against touch AC they do.
but yeah the gun fail/broken rate is a bit hard to swallow particularly for the gunwizard who can't just pull out a second gun having only attuned to one in the morning.
I've played a Spellslinger from 1 to 4th level so far and have had no problems with either the gun being destroyed or overpowered. All in all this is a very good archetype. I'm one of the few that like the guns as is.
I like the concept, especially the accompanying artwork. I could easily see something like the wizards gun being some piece of ancient Numerian technology, allowing them to channel their arcane powers through it. With the ability to fire ranged touch spells through the gun, it has a lot of potential. Disintegrate turns it into a death ray :D
I like the concept, especially the accompanying artwork. I could easily see something like the wizards gun being some piece of ancient Numerian technology, allowing them to channel their arcane powers through it. With the ability to fire ranged touch spells through the gun, it has a lot of potential. Disintegrate turns it into a death ray :D
heh disentigrate for lv20 wiz on a crit x3
120d6 of atomizing goodness ;)
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I love it, but weirdly the archetype is banned for Pathfinder Society play, so I've had to take the Gunslinger/Wizard/Eldritch Knight progression and I'm still pretty pleased with how that ends up looking like. You lose out on spellcasting, sure, but the reloading isn't as horrifying as it would ordinarily be and you get far more freedom with spell choices.
I'd be interested to hear how a Spellslinger enchanting potent save-or-suck necromancy spells onto fired rounds manages with the arcane gun class feature.
it is growing on me also i never play wizard but a spell slinger may be an upcoming lobo lusk character production.
I love it, but weirdly the archetype is banned for Pathfinder Society play,
that's odd was a reason given ?
I am just having a problem with "Giving up Cantrips" :(
I've played a Spellslinger from 1 to 4th level so far and have had no problems with either the gun being destroyed or overpowered. All in all this is a very good archetype. I'm one of the few that like the guns as is.I have no problem with the gunmage, but I do have a problem with the gun.
In my games I'll probably house-rule it to basically be treated as a crossbow for the non-table mechanics. This means no misfire, no "touch AC" nonsense, etc. It tries to give guns a shtick that they don't need. Their shtick should be high base damage and critical and cost of funds, and they already have that. We have a repeating crossbow that can execute flawlessly every time, but a gun fails 10% of the time to the point of causing damage to the weapon? Pshaw!
the only counter I would say about that is that I like the touch AC aspect specifically for a half BAB class using it e.g. the wizard. They don't have the BAB to be viable as normal ranged weapon attackers but against touch AC they do.
but yeah the gun fail/broken rate is a bit hard to swallow particularly for the gunwizard who can't just pull out a second gun having only attuned to one in the morning.
I am considering some feats and houserules for crossbows so it can replace the gun in many options from UC, a spellslinger with a crossbow of some kind is pretty sweet.
Considering to make them martial weapons negating up to 4 point of (natural)armor/shield within 30' for light crossbows, 60' for heavy, making them viable weapons for people without proficiency at short range still, I will have to take a closer look at the gun rules for some ideas, but I think reflavoring goes a long way.
I am just having a problem with "Giving up Cantrips" :(
Alternatively you could just require the player to buy the proficiency feats and keep cantrip, the archetypes will not touch on anything not inherent in the class but it is an easy fix essentialy giving up your 1st level feat slot.
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I love it, but weirdly the archetype is banned for Pathfinder Society play,that's odd was a reason given ?
All archetypes that use guns (and weren't Gunslinger archetypes) were banned for Golarion flavor reasons. Merely a midway point between the fanatical "GUNS IN MY FANTASY, GOLARION RUINED FOREVER" and "YEAH LET'S SHOOT KNIGHTS WITH NUMERIA SPACE LASERS!" They felt guns were still rare enough to limit it to one class, which is pretty fair, IMO.
So what exactly is the benefit of going gunwizard? you lose a lot of spell casting and your gun allows you to shoot already ranged touch spells.
I don't like the spellslinger. I think that if anything should have been a prestige class, this is it. Like Arcane Archer. I see no conceptual reason why only wizards could imbue guns with magic. Since sorcerers aren't allowed to have archetypes, a PrC would be the way to go for this particular concept.
I don't like the spellslinger. I think that if anything should have been a prestige class, this is it. Like Arcane Archer. I see no conceptual reason why only wizards could imbue guns with magic. Since sorcerers aren't allowed to have archetypes, a PrC would be the way to go for this particular concept.
A sorcerer can be done quite easily but might be best based off the arcane bloodline since that is the most generic and that way you know which powers to replace, you could base it off on any other bloodline but thematically it becomes muddled very fast if you do that I think.
In essence the bloodline of sorcerers are already too much like archetypes to mix well, a PrC will leave sorcerers with mediocre bloodline abilities anyway unless it is based off the bloodline (like the Dragon Disciple).
I just work under the assumption Arcane Bloodline is the basis and the others are archetypes.
All archetypes that use guns (and weren't Gunslinger archetypes) were banned for Golarion flavor reasons. Merely a midway point between the fanatical "GUNS IN MY FANTASY, GOLARION RUINED FOREVER" and "YEAH LET'S SHOOT KNIGHTS WITH NUMERIA SPACE LASERS!" They felt guns were still rare enough to limit it to one class, which is pretty fair, IMO.I love it, but weirdly the archetype is banned for Pathfinder Society play,that's odd was a reason given ?
I was curious about it as well.
Thank you for answering.
So what exactly is the benefit of going gunwizard? you lose a lot of spell casting and your gun allows you to shoot already ranged touch spells.IIRC, you add the enhancement bonus of your gun to the save DC of the spell fired through it. This can get pretty nasty if you're already pushing for a maxed out DC.
and you can increase the crit from x2 to x3 by selecting ONE gun to bond with at character creation. Crit an enervation ray and that fellow could potentially gain 12 negative levels.
I've played a Spellslinger from 1 to 4th level so far and have had no problems with either the gun being destroyed or overpowered. All in all this is a very good archetype. I'm one of the few that like the guns as is.
@Realmwalker- I am definitely thinking about one as a back up character in Kingmaker. Do you actually ever find yourself shooting anything other than spells with your weapon? With the build I was putting together, I actually was avoiding all the gun feats and focusing on DC/spell feats for a ray specialist.
Greg
So what exactly is the benefit of going gunwizard? you lose a lot of spell casting and your gun allows you to shoot already ranged touch spells.IIRC, you add the enhancement bonus of your gun to the save DC of the spell fired through it. This can get pretty nasty if you're already pushing for a maxed out DC.and you can increase the crit from x2 to x3 by selecting ONE gun to bond with at character creation. Crit an enervation ray and that fellow could potentially gain 12 negative levels.
I've played a Spellslinger from 1 to 4th level so far and have had no problems with either the gun being destroyed or overpowered. All in all this is a very good archetype. I'm one of the few that like the guns as is.@Realmwalker- I am definitely thinking about one as a back up character in Kingmaker. Do you actually ever find yourself shooting anything other than spells with your weapon? With the build I was putting together, I actually was avoiding all the gun feats and focusing on DC/spell feats for a ray specialist.
Greg
Yes on several occasions but I feated myself for them Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot etc. Touch AC balances out crappy Base Attack. I would love to use the bullets that were shown on Kobold Quarterly website that allowed bullets with summoned monsters in them. I think it would have been awesome to shoot badgers at someone :D Spell Ammo would have been very cool. Maybe an Archetype of Alchemist could do the whole Spell Ammo thing.
Working under the assumption that Spellslinger's spell related abilities work cross class (IE, you can fuel Mage Bullets with Cleric spell slots, but also assuming you had to be wary of opposition schools), I had been playing a shooty Spellslinger 1/Cleric 3 for a bit. Was quite fun; the ability to drop on weapon enhancements and the cleric abilities seemed pretty cool, and the targeting Touch AC deal made the stat dependencies a little less bad.
Then she was eaten by a Phase Spider.
I think this may be another Crossblooded Sorcerer, where a lot of the bigger benefits may be in a crossclass build where you can take advantage of the first level abilities while skipping out on the disadvantages of being pure Spellslinger.
HATE!!!!!!!!!!
LOVE
I'm making one for a backup character in the KM game I am in. Another player and I have come up with an Alchemist/Gunwizard tag team that roll around a cannon in the River Kingdoms blowin crap up.
Not doable. you either take the whole package or none of it.I am just having a problem with "Giving up Cantrips" :(Alternatively you could just require the player to buy the proficiency feats and keep cantrip, the archetypes will not touch on anything not inherent in the class but it is an easy fix essentialy giving up your 1st level feat slot.
ermm.. why is it not doable ? It is a houserule ofcourse, which is ok.. the whole archetype isn't even allowed in PFS so houseruling isn't much of a problem.
The cantrips have been sacrificed as a matter of recourse because there are not many class abilities to sacrifice, though 4 opposition schools and lack of specialization might have been enough. Taking away the cantrips has little use except to rob a player of some 'fun tools'.
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gunslinger made me upchuck =(
i stuck with gunslinger 1/wizard 3 for pfs play. i love my cantrips, and i wanted to specialize in transmutation. my pistol is my bonded item, and i'll get to upgrade it myself at higher levels. i still can take the fun firearm utility spells to help out. even for dipping into gunslinger for a level, i feel it doesn't give up nearly as much, and retains everything flavorful that i want.
You can always offset the penalty of having 4 opposition schools by spending feats on "Arcane Discovery: Opposition Research" once you reach 9th level. However, I'm not sure that the bonus to the save DC/attack rolls is enough to justify giving up familiar/bonded items and specialization school slots and abilities.
All archetypes that use guns (and weren't Gunslinger archetypes) were banned for Golarion flavor reasons. Merely a midway point between the fanatical "GUNS IN MY FANTASY, GOLARION RUINED FOREVER" and "YEAH LET'S SHOOT KNIGHTS WITH NUMERIA SPACE LASERS!" They felt guns were still rare enough to limit it to one class, which is pretty fair, IMO.I love it, but weirdly the archetype is banned for Pathfinder Society play,that's odd was a reason given ?
See, I actually prefer the opposite approach - that guns are too rare to have an entire class built around them, but people who can get their hands on one develop a few nice tricks (thus archtypes). I bar the gunslinger in my games, but allow select gun-based archtypes (such as the musketeer or trophy hunter). The spellslinger is not one of those, however (nor is the holy gun). I think when you blend guns so casually with magic, they loose a lot of their charm and novelty in a fantasy setting.
The spellslinger is an absolutely HOT, HOT, HOT archetype. It's not your typical 'god' style mage, and that's ok. It will specialize in something and do it amazingly. Anything that requires a save or blasting are strong options.
The gun exploding is a little more concern than normal as it can happen on when you roll a 1 or the save of the spell you cast is saved against with a natural 20. However, there is a weapon enchant that cuts down on the chance of explosion... so you should be getting that.
There are a couple things that make this amazing.
1) using a single gun gives any spell cast through it a x3 crit. As mentioned above that means you can nova for insane amounts when you do crit. This makes a real good case for a wizard blaster.
2) You can sacrifice spells to your gun to give it a bonus to it's enhancement and/or special abilities for one minute per level of spell sacked... you spit on the special abilities and go enhancement because...
3) You can add the guns enhancement bonus to either the DC of spells cast through it or as bonus damage on the spell (who cares, did you read the DC part?!?!).
This means that a 10th level spell slinger can sack one fifth level spell and get +5 DC on all his spells for the next 5 minutes. I bet you can think of some really good fifth level spells or lower that would just love an extra +5 DC on top of any other DC improving methods (feats, dipping sorcerer with cross blooded, etc... and of course, dipping sorcerer gets us back those wonderful cantrips as well).
Yeah, if you want a wizard who is awesome with save or suck and is willing to focus... the Spellslinger is a great way to do it.
Sean Mahoney
As a seperate concept with the spellslinger, I think it could make for a really good dip for gunslinger. You then would be using magic bullets to add abilities to your gun instead of pumping DC like a straight spellslinger... you also get spells that allow you to do things like bump up your defense which is great for a lightly armored guy who tries to stay within 10 ft of the enemy.
Anyway... I really like the potential of this archetype. If you are interested in a further discussion of it's potential, check out:
The Gamers' Guide to Firearms - Part I
The Gamers' Guide to Firearms - Part II
I think we specifically talk about the Spellslinger in Part II
These are the first two episode of my podcast, if you would like to check out more The Gamers' Guide to Pathfinder is available on iTunes, at RPGpodcast.com, and soon Zune, or the RSS feed is:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/Thegamersguidetopathfinder
Sean Mahoney
HATE!!!!
You give up too much, in fact, you give up ALL of your class features but your wizard feats AND THEN SOME! Not only do you now have two more opposed schools than normal to deal with, you risk your very expensive gun exploding in your face and killing you and your allies. Even if you all survive, you just lost practically all of your class abilities until it can be replaced (and it's generally a rare hard to find item to boot)!
What do you get in return? The only thing really worth mentioning is the DC increase to your spells.
Oh, wait. That only works with cones, rays, and ranged touch attacks.
That pretty much just leaves disintegrate and perhaps scorching ray as semi-reliable options.
I think I will stick to my flesh to stone. It doesn't require a save AND an attack roll. I also get to keep all my worthwhile class features.
Gunslinger just leaves a lot to be desired.
HATE!!!!
All good points... I mean, I know how you hate blasting wizards!
Sean
HATE!!!!
You give up too much, in fact, you give up ALL of your class features but your wizard feats AND THEN SOME! Not only do you now have two more opposed schools than normal to deal with, you risk your very expensive gun exploding in your face and killing you and your allies. Even if you all survive, you just lost practically all of your class abilities until it can be replaced (and it's generally a rare hard to find item to boot)!
What do you get in return? The only thing really worth mentioning is the DC increase to your spells.
Oh, wait. That only works with cones, rays, and ranged touch attacks.
That pretty much just leaves disintegrate and perhaps scorching ray as semi-reliable options.
I think I will stick to my flesh to stone. It doesn't require a save AND an attack roll. I also get to keep all my worthwhile class features.
Gunslinger just leaves a lot to be desired.
You can also cast melee touch attack spells as ranged touch attack spells through the application of the 'reach' feat, but there are only a few spells worth casting in this manner (calcific touch as a ranged touch attack looked nice).
I think if you want to play a 'gunwizard' just dip into gunslinger one level, and take your gun as a bonded item. Much better than giving up your specialization school for a max of +5s on saves for a very small group of spells.
Out of the very few spells that can benefit from the +dc, the ones that stood out to me are:
The rules for this archetype are also VERY confusing:
For example: When you channel a spell through a gun, are you "casting" it? Or something else? Do you need a free hand to do this, can a spellslinger with a rifle cast/channel spells through his gun at all? If you don't need a free hand to do this, what other spellcasting rules might change?
The rules for this archetype are also VERY confusing:
For example: When you channel a spell through a gun, are you "casting" it? Or something else? Do you need a free hand to do this, can a spellslinger with a rifle cast/channel spells through his gun at all? If you don't need a free hand to do this, what other spellcasting rules might change?
Isn't there a feat that lets you make ranged attacks without taking the AoO ?
by the same token can you cast defensively to avoid an AoO on attacks made through the gun adjacent to an enemy
I also have a problem with mage bullets. Here's the list of what you can put on the gun.
For one, Dancing, Defending, Spell Storing, and Vicious are all melee only. So you have to have one of the guns with the melee weapons built in (dagger pistols, axe muskets, etc) or these are useless.
Distance is nice, but you should have that enhancement built onto your gun as well as reliable (not listed of course). Ghost touch is situational but you'll be glad you can do it at will when you need it. Merciful and seeking are also situational. Spending an action to give your gun wounding is a waste of time, I think.
That leaves us with Flaming and Flaming Burst, Frost and Icy Burst, Shock and Shocking burst, and Thundering to boost damage. Thats great, really. But where's Holy, Axiomatic, Anarchic, Unholy (all +2 bonus) and Corrosive/Corrosive Burst?
Bane might be a little too good for this though, it would obsolete every other enhancement.
I'm still going to give this archetype a shot (no pun intended) as part of a Gunslinger/Wizard/Eldritch Knight build. We'll see what happens.
I also have a problem with mage bullets. Here's the list of what you can put on the gun.
** spoiler omitted **
For one, Dancing, Defending, Spell Storing, and Vicious are all melee only. So you have to have one of the guns with the melee weapons built in (dagger pistols, axe muskets, etc) or these are useless.Distance is nice, but you should have that enhancement built onto your gun as well as reliable (not listed of course). Ghost touch is situational but you'll be glad you can do it at will when you need it. Merciful and seeking are also situational. Spending an action to give your gun wounding is a waste of time, I think.
That leaves us with Flaming and Flaming Burst, Frost and Icy Burst, Shock and Shocking burst, and Thundering to boost damage. Thats great, really. But where's Holy, Axiomatic, Anarchic, Unholy (all +2 bonus) and Corrosive/Corrosive Burst?
Bane might be a little too good for this though, it would obsolete every other enhancement.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm still going to give this archetype a shot (no pun intended) as part of a Gunslinger/Wizard/Eldritch Knight build. We'll see what happens.
I want a gun that fires giant battle axe's. ;-)
I Love it.
Nothing says epicness like a dude shooting level drains out of a double hackbut.