SRT4W's page

Grey Mage wrote:

Cost for 5 +1 Returning Brilliant Energy Arrows: 6,000 gp.

Usable almost literally forever. Never worry about having to run out, attack vs touch AC at 110', with more feat options and the ability to add another +10s worth of magical effects to your bow.

Sorry, but that isn't going to work for two reasons.

First, under the section on magic items:

Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.

Second, the first sentence of the description of the Returning special ability states: "This ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown."

Arrows aren't throwing weapons, since they lack ranges in and of themselves (requiring bows to be used). Even if they were able to be thrown, they are destroyed the moment they deal their damage.

Adding Returning to an arrow just wastes the gold.

I'm sorry but i get this image of a very depressed archer sitting there holding a snapped in half arrow that just teleported back to him.

No offense, Solkanis, but all of overdark's points have already been covered and refuted. There isn't much to be added and it's better to let the thread die than to try and go over everything all over again.

I also feel that the fact that he hasn't posted here or even on the message board is a pretty good indication that people realized he had a blind, faceless crusade(for seemingly no reason) and were not going to listen to him.

Remco Sommeling wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

I am just having a problem with "Giving up Cantrips" :(

Alternatively you could just require the player to buy the proficiency feats and keep cantrip, the archetypes will not touch on anything not inherent in the class but it is an easy fix essentialy giving up your 1st level feat slot.

Not doable. you either take the whole package or none of it.

Nah, DMs totally don't have the power to change what ever they want when ever they want not at all.

Well if I was running a home game instead of a PFS organized play game, I wouldn't even allow gunslingers nor guns, because as a matter of taste, I prefer not to have them in my "sword and sorcery" game.

But when running an "organized play" game you give up some elements of control, such as deciding what materiel you allow in your game or not.

I just trying to get a handle on the gunslinger.

Tobias you make some good points.

To me the gunslinger initiative seems like a contradiction to the core rules. I suspect it is ripe for abuse, but I am not yet sure how.

Anyways, I will continue to read the rules, and familiarize myself with them.

thanks for all of your posts.

Please explain to me how its "Ripe for abuse" I can not see anyway to abuse it other than using the way it was written. It seems that statement is purely over the top for the sake of being over the top.

Tobias wrote:

HappyDaze wrote:

What if Craft was reworked so that the build time isn't based upon the cost of the item but just the difficulty? Using the system as written, ignore the normal costs and treat the items effective sp cost for build time as its DC squared. Now a DC 20 item is crafted in the amount of time it takes to make something that normally (by RAW) costs 40gp regardless of whether it actually costs 1gp or 4,000gp.

So it takes the same amount of time to make one acid bolt (40gp) as it would to make a masterwork carriage for a gargantuan creature*? Um... ok?

*Carriage is 100gp, Masterwork is 300gp, and size increase for armor (being used for example purpose) is x8, for a total of 3200 gp

Edit: It also takes the exact same amount of time to make a single javelin (1 gp) as the gargantuan masterwork carriage.

Obviously, I didn't come up with a full system. It even breaks down before that because the current rules use a multiple of the DC and the result while a better option might be to simply use the margin of success. Using size multipliers so larger items take longer to make is an easy thing to add.

To be honest I'm betting there is little to nothing that can be done to "fix" crafting in PF/D&D

Alakqualyn wrote:

Got to dot this thread so much humor in it. No offense meant. :)

Edit: Raise Thread!

Well.

I see your youtube and raise you

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

Tobias wrote:

Since NPCs are clearly out to abuse the system, why don't they optimize and take a level of aristocrat for the money and social class and then go expert for the skill points? Really, it's the commoners own fault for not bothering to bend the rules in their favour.

Yeah because having a level of aristocrat guarantees those things. Right.

But you obviously have a better handle on the rules than me. Whatever.

Well....

Considering your repeated inaccuracies...

Considering your use of inaccurate rules to tell people that are wrong...

Considering your blind crusade on the topic of firearms and gunslingers...

Also if you don't know the difference between treasure and crafted items than I don't know what to say to you.

There is no differnce in sell price for crafted vs found treasure. +1 sword is going to be sold for the same price no matter on whether it is made by John the adventurer or found by him in a dragons belly.

We have come down to the fact that your knowlege of the rules is lacking to the point of being laughable and you spout off misinformation as if it is correct to try and upset, chastise and chide other players.

IE: "You can't take 10 on a craft check"

yes you can.

"There's a differnce between sell value in crafted vs found items"

There is not.

Please learn the rules before you use them to prove a point and to tell others they are wrong.

Talonhawke wrote:

overdark wrote:

I wasn't commenting on the general system, just the fact that Gunsmithing bypasses all the previous checks and balances for crafting items.

How about the fact that no other class in the game has to spend 11g at the least per shot if they just buy their ammo?

If we assume three first level ranged characters, Gunslinger Bow user, Crossbow user, lets say over one day and each takes 10 shots.

The gun user needs 110g to buy his ten shots at this level.

The bow user needs 5s to pay for his shots.

The crossbow user needs 1g to pay of his shots.

So the check and balance is that anyone else can just buy their weapon and ammo for a small amount and only need craft for complex or rare items.

Figured i would bump my own arguement since the Tro...I mean OP seems to want avoid answering a most logical thoughts.

Yea... Notice his lack of posting... I'm pretty sure the crusade is over for him. His points were shot down dozens of times by dozens of people and he STILL told them they were wrong and then resorted to childish insults to argue his points.

I don't know what his issue with gunslingers, guns, ect. is since he claims its not an issue with the feel of them in his fantasy. I don't mind people that dont like them because of that but to try and ruin it for everyone else is just BS. stop ruining others fun just because you don't like something.

I don't think he's talking about playing the gunslinger as is without guns, I think he's asking what it might be if you removed all references to firearms and had everything (Grit, Deeds, etc.) work with bows instead.

this would be my assumption too. Either with bows, crossbows or with some sort of supernatural power (IE 3.5 Warlocks)

Tobias wrote:

So we're discussing crafting again?

I guess that clears up the main issue of whether or not guns are broken.

In short, they aren't.

Unless you misfire and then they are ;D

Unless they were broken and you misfired.... then they're a mis-fireball....

I see a therapist for bipolar disorder and also am part of a assemblies of god church. I had a visit with my therapist today. Well I decided since I had quite a bit of a wait before my appointment to read my Pathfinder core rulebook in the waiting room since I wanted to refresh myself on the rules. Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil. I later after the appointment was thinking about this when I got a phone call from the pastor of the church I go to about something there putting on anyway I asked the Pastor about his thoughts on D&D and he said he had no comments on that subject. So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?

I realize this is a nercro thread but:

Your therapist is ignorant and judgmental. It is not your theorpists job to make choices for you, tell you what your religions beliefs are or how you should interpret YOUR religion. If the advice was unsolicitated and he just chimed in with a random outburst while not being part of your church or knowing your actual beliefs then you should have called the ethics committee on him(assuming he has one overseeing him) I would ignore him if the advice was unsolicited.

If you did ask for his advice on it then i would look at what he said and then go read through your bible and see interpret the text as YOU see fit. If you feel that it is against your religion then stop, if you feel it is ok then keep on playing.

IMO, religion should be a personal journey and not something dictated by someone else.

Abraham spalding wrote:

SRT4W wrote:

Evocation wizards are STILL doing more damage per round than the gunslinger or archer are doing, so rather than crusade against all ranged martial ranged being the same maybe you should take a look at a lvl 10 anything martial versus a lvl 10 Evo's fireball.

Um... I really want you to prove this. Mathematically and Mechanically it simply doesn't hold up at all from anything I've seen in pathfinder.

Realize I'm only calling you on it because I'm extremely curious how you came to this conclusion.

He may be referencing Ravingdork's big blaster sorcerer build here.

HA! Thats it! I had gone looking for it. Again, against a single target its not going to shine, but against a room of them it will. Different situations different people shine... the fact that some people don't get "Different classes are different" Is rather... upsetting.

SRT4W wrote:

Evocation wizards are STILL doing more damage per round than the gunslinger or archer are doing, so rather than crusade against all ranged martial ranged being the same maybe you should take a look at a lvl 10 anything martial versus a lvl 10 Evo's fireball.

Um... I really want you to prove this. Mathematically and Mechanically it simply doesn't hold up at all from anything I've seen in pathfinder.

Realize I'm only calling you on it because I'm extremely curious how you came to this conclusion.

Not on a single target but no a multi target fight they will.

My point was that on certain fights evo wizards are going to do better than anyone else the same way that gunslingers will do better than anyone else on some and paladins will do better on certain fights than anyone else.

Probably should have written it out better. It seems that some people don't get that different classes are different and people seem to have issues with that.

And you are correct Zappo, fights are one good save, rangers and pallys are two. Either way the actual point stands.

While we're all angsting about Guns, Skill checks and Misfire chance, can anyone spell out to me how I'm meant to use my skills to remove the broken condition from a firearm?

Playing as a level 1 Gunslinger with woeful reloading, I'm worried about how I'd fare against a large group of weak enemies. 5 goblins could down me as assuming 100% accuracy and killing damage with every blow, it'd take me a minimum of 10 rounds to kill them all with a musket master, while they'd get something like 25 attacks against me. Even a caster gets group spells that'd allow them to handle this encounter easily, but a gunslinger would need to forget their weapon and pull out a bow.

At low levels pistols are better for this reason. Rapid reload and paper carts only get muskets down to a move action and at level 1 its pretty hard to afford paper carts. So rapid reload takes it down to standard action to reload but that really doesn't help your case.

To be honest, musket master really doesn't shine until 5th level where you can move action reload with normal ammo and paper carts make it a free action.

Stuff

Thank you, at least I no longer feel that I'm the only one. I don't understand his issue with people presenting FACTS and then him calling them OPINIONS. He seems to have an issue with actually reading the DPR threads and I am willing to bet it comes down to a thinly veiled excuse for trying to get Paizo to nerf guns so that no one wants to use them.

But that's my opinion.

If he had any actual facts or would make it so that the facts he posts are actually accurate and not turned aside by a simple SRD search then maybe it wouldn't be so bad but as it stands between his poor at best attitude and lack of factual evidence this seems more like a troll than anything.

@SRT4W: When you distort things its ok then, huh?

The monster the archer and the gunslinger were fighting was just an iron golem from the bestiary 1. Not the other monster from a completely different post.

But this is the level of comprehension I've come to expect from these boards.

@leo1925: Yeah yer right about that, we don't do a lot of taking 10 or 20 in our game, so yeah you can take 10 (not 20) on checks like that.

See I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. Too bad others aren't.

I have distorted nothing. You have come in here and made statements against conventional wisdom, made statements with no backing and expected everyone else to refute what you said. If you are going to make statements that go against the grain then it lies with you to prove them, NOT with everyone elseto prove that youa re wrong.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/iron

An iron golem have a AC of 28 NOT 33, a touch of 8 NOT of 9. Your facts are, in fact, wrong. Again. I have said nothing that is incorrect, the only thing that is incorrect is your "facts" that come down to ignorant anecdotal evidence with no real backing. Your argument also is predicated on the fact that gunslingers and archers should ALWAYS be on even ground which they should not. Different classes are different and it seems people like you don't get that. You found something that the gunslinger is going to be better against as long as he is with in 20yards. After you leave that 20 yard range the archer is, again better. On top of that there are lots of monsters that the gunslinger does NOT shine against at all.

You also have a problem with Full BAB and 2 good saves with one class but not another with out explaining why and disliked my sarcastic response.

Though that does beg the question:

SRT4W wrote:

Quote:

2) I like the gunslinger. The class is fine (but shouldn't have full BAB and two good saves and d10 HD)

Then neither should fighters....

See argument like this are what I love about this place.

What is your problem with my response? it fits with your theme of every person should be the same in every encounter. Clearly no one should ever have an advantage over another depending on the monster. 'Scuse me while i go hate on paladins fighter lichs......

SRT4W wrote:

Yea... exactly. overdark has been crusading against gunslingers since the open play test. I really believe its something outside of actual game play. Hes been finding what ever he can to attack them and his posts as a whole are disjointed and non-cohesive.

I feel there is something he doesn't like that he isn't telling us like not liking guns in his fantasy. But instead of coming out and saying it he uses random "Facts" to support a blind hatred. The upside being:

A) Paizo didn't allow his prejudice to effect their design choices and did not let his rants ruin the class for everyone

and

B) Everytime he goes on a rant players come in say "You're wrong, here is proof" The downside of that is that he continues to rant incoherently about unimportant "Facts" that are not related to the initial problem.

I personally can not understand the blind hatred to the extent that he seems to have. I wish he could come out and say what his actual issue is rather than just keep making posts like he has been.

I thought I had stated this but evidently you didn't read that so one more time for the cheap seats...

1) I am fine with guns in my fantasy. (provided they aren't broken like PF guns)

Again, how are they broken, you havn't stated this. At all.

2) I like the gunslinger. The class is fine (but shouldn't have full BAB and two good saves and d10 HD)

Then neither should fighters....

3) The guns that Paizo had in the first campaign guide included revolvers and rifles so what happened to them? No special GM permission rules included.

GM permission is always needed. If you don't understand this then you know understand how the game works. Go back and start with the 1st ed AD&D books and learn the game. GMs world and they can do with it as the please, even if it is an AP. Thats why house rules and GM choices trump ALL else. As they should.

4) If you don't think the touch attack mechanic is broken, fine. That doesn't make me wrong.

Yes it does. DPR shows that gunslingers are under other martial ranged classes/archetypes. If you are going to nerf the touch attacks then you need to give them something else to make up for it. As it is the damage that guns do is low, the touch attack makes it so that GSs are atleast close to the other archtypes.

Something being Broken is not about opinion it is fact. When class A can do 600 dpr and class B can do 200 then something is BROKEN. You don't liking the rule does not make it broken.

5) Evidently you didn't like my stats above, the archer does indeed get an additional +2 to attack from GWF and Point Blank Shot. Big dead the gunslinger still wins.

Because you are the ONLY ONE TO COME OUT AND DISTORT THE FACTS TO SHOW THAT ARCHERS ARE BEHIND. You are the only one, period.

33 AC monster is a ~CR18. Your archer is getting +25, at lvl 18 you are getting +18 from BAB and atleast +5 from your dex.... what type of archer are you playing a Wizard archer?

6) I didn't start this whole gunslinger thing again, I was just commenting on the no skill check for crafting firearms. Everyone else seemed to instead want to bring up other topics. I'm just willing to argue with these people.

Then why did you keep ranting mindlessly about ANYTHING you don't like about the GS class? On top of that the closest thing to a gun gameplay wise is what? A bow? A CR12 check? Yea, thats not even a check. Take 10 and you need a +2... which anyone that is lvl 2 or more and plans on making items will have.

7) The no skill checks involved for...

Thinly veiled disguise for any attack you can make on guns and the GS class.

Hey i don't like guns (and ninja for that matter) to be alongside with wizards, knights and dragons but you don't see me fighting against them and going in the rant that overdark seems to be going, also from what i have seen and thought, i don't see anything game-braking with early firearms (apart from waiting for a clarification on double barrel pistols), for advanced firearms i am not so sure since i haven't got the chance to test them yet.

I disagree with you about guns in fantasy BUT... Thats opinion and is one conversation, mechanics is another. I'm pretty sure we agree on that.

As to rules? I really hope that the double barrel is usable when you move but not every single attack. Advanced firearms are... well lets say this. I feel firearms are over priced gold wise BUT the difference in early and advanced firearms price is not enough for what you get, an extra 1k(revolver) for 5 range increments of touch attack? Thats pretty.. tiny for what you get. I'd think that Advanced firearms could go on either the wondrous items chart OR be more like 6k(revolver) and lower the price or early guns by 10% or so.

On top of that i feel that the price of ammo is pretty out of control considering the giant difference between Paper carts and arrows. Mostly because to use your full attack they are necessary and they have other downsides (misfire going up one.) I'm glad that one of the groups i play in doesn't track normal ammo which for them is normal arrows, normal bolts and paper carts/bullets/powder otherwise, I'd be broke.

I can understand why, fluff wise, they would make guns and ammo more expensive, making them feel more rare. But from a game play point of view it seems... unbalanced. Theres also the huge difference in bullets and powder vs paper carts i just don't see the extra money for paper... a paper cart is just a pullet and dose of powder wrapped in paper.

Anyways, if you ban advanced fire arms and only allow double barrel firing once a turn the gunslinger comes out just fine. At higher levels advanced firearms are less of an issue considering what high level fighters and wizards are capable.

overdark wrote:

Fighters can make their own magic items in Pathfinder now. Awesome. Still gotta have high Craft ranks and make checks.

Wizards can make stuff too but again they gotta make those pseky checks.
Experts and commoners make stuff, all kinds of stuff, but they gotta make checks.
Except when they take 1 feat, and they make guns.

OK, add checks, swap the feat for Skill Focus, and you're in the exact same situation -- "having" to make "pesky" checks that are nearly impossible to fail.

Skill checks don't create balance. If you think touch attacks vs. AC is OP, fine -- argue that point, stick to it, and provide real numbers to back it up. But, seriously, adding a skill check is NOT going to fix it. It's not even a start towards fixing it. All it does is add another die roll for the sake of form -- which need hardly ever be made, because most of the time you can just take 10 and auto-succeed anyway.

Yea... exactly. overdark has been crusading against gunslingers since the open play test. I really believe its something outside of actual game play. Hes been finding what ever he can to attack them and his posts as a whole are disjointed and non-cohesive.

I feel there is something he doesn't like that he isn't telling us like not liking guns in his fantasy. But instead of coming out and saying it he uses random "Facts" to support a blind hatred. The upside being:

A) Paizo didn't allow his prejudice to effect their design choices and did not let his rants ruin the class for everyone

and

B) Everytime he goes on a rant players come in say "You're wrong, here is proof" The downside of that is that he continues to rant incoherently about unimportant "Facts" that are not related to the initial problem.

I personally can not understand the blind hatred to the extent that he seems to have. I wish he could come out and say what his actual issue is rather than just keep making posts like he has been.

I've run PF games in settings that are from 3.5, allowed a lot of race/class/feat options from 3.5 but I'm pretty strict about what i will allow AFTER I or they try it. Usually I'll start off allowing anyone to do just about anything... once its tried if i feel it is "Broken" or just plane annoying I'll shut it down. My players have always been cool with:

"No im sorry but I need to pull the plug on your frenzied berserker, you can remake him using a different PRC or archetype of make a new character."

If i had players that were not ok with my rule of "I'll pull the plug if i don't like it" Then i would be strict with everything. But since they are I let them try anything.

... Lets just say there is no more Magic Incarnum or 3.5 psychics in my games...

See to me it matters on the campaign setting. For example in 3.5 if you were playing Forgotten realms it seemed "OK" to be just an average adventurer because in faerun everyone was amazing. But in Greyhawk I always felt like the players should be the exception, not the rule.

In pathfinder i get much more of the greyhawk feel than the Faerun one, but again just my opinion.

The rule says "and others at GMs discretion" Which is perfect reasoning to house rule it with out any fuss... But I won't as I dislike worrying about flying things and having to use the Pythagorean theorem in my gaming...

Tebbo wrote:

I read "9-11 is what you're going to roll most often" and stopped reading.

And this is why I decided to stop arguing.

Some months ago, there was a lot of discussion about the gunslinger during it's playtest, where Overdark illustrated his point of view with this kind of argument. All the time. With strange examples, calcul mistakes, constant misinterpretation of the rules, non-mathematical assumptions ("10 is the average so I use 10 to see if it's average", no matter the DPR stats, critical hits and large fumbles misfire zones which ruin the true average damage of a gunslinger)...
Any other topic will serve as a proof that guns aren't overpowered at all.

See and I really wish they would delete topics like this that are completely ignorant and just mindless ranting crusades.

Overdark has failed to provide actual mathematical proof, no numbers at all and seemingly does not understand how DPR works since his dice always roll 9, 10 and 11.

He has been on a mindless crusade against guns since testing, providing no numbers or evidence back then either. Infact if he would come out and say "I just don't like guns in my fantasy" Everyone wouldn't care, ignore him and move on. But instead he goes on rants to try and prove to everyone that his opinion (Seeing as he has provided no sound reasoning to call it fact) is correct and everyone else is wrong.

He has a poor attitude and chooses to ignore posts constantly, especially when people tell him something is wrong (CR18 monster with 33 AC VS a +25 to hit archer... something's funny here...) and expects everyone to take his points verbatim and with out argument.

The fact that he has been, for months, on the same ignorant rants with a complete lack of facts shows to me, and I'm sure many others, that he has no facts to back up his opinion but rather is upset by something other than the damage they can put out and has ulterior motives and a hidden agenda. On top of that this "No Craft DCs not fair!" post was just a thinly veiled excuse to spew forth anecdotal, at best, evidence that everyone posting DPR numbers are wrong.

The only thing that upsets me is that there are GOING to be people that repost or link this as if its fact, there are going to be DMs and players that find this and don't read the whole thing thinking that it is the truth and that GS are overpowered, when in reality they are not.

No matter how much you dislike something posting misinformation to try and push your agenda because you don't like something unrelated is a terrible thing to do. The educated will call you out on it and the ignorant will follow you only until they meet someone that is educated.

A Man In Black wrote:

Have words with your GM. That's appropriate AC for a CR 18ish enemy, and if you only have +25 to hit (or if you're trying to function as a martial combatant) at that level, you're going to have issues no matter what.

You fought an enemy with outrageously high AC, and thus you feel that an attacker that bypasses AC is more effective against that foe. Well duh. It doesn't actually illustrate anything useful, though.

I like how you avoid the part where the gunslinger outperformed the archer in the example and instead focused on the monster. The monster was used as an example just because I happen to have those numbers fresh in my mind.

But anyway here goes, yes we fought 6 of these monsters. No were not 18th level our APL is 10.5, but we use 25-point guys and other stuff so thats why I didn't mention my home game on these boards.

I try to stick to a more baseline 15-20 point game assumption, no hero points etc.

Again the moster was an example, the characters were just an example too.

You are complaining about balance while talking about an unbalanced monster.

CR 18 monster with 33 AC is NOT going to be fighting someone with only +25 to hit as an archer. You have an issue with your GM if anything...

On top of that YES there are monsters that slingers will do better at due to their AC... and ones that they wont be able to hit for crap as well. They shine against different opponents, period. Just like sometimes your caster is best served to sit in a corner and other fights the fighters only purpose us meat shield.

Archery is also equally good from point blank all the way out to 100 yards, guns are not, they are a midrange weapon and only should be used outside of touch range as a last resort.

Evocation wizards are STILL doing more damage per round than the gunslinger or archer are doing, so rather than crusade against all ranged martial ranged being the same maybe you should take a look at a lvl 10 anything martial versus a lvl 10 Evo's fireball.

The best thing that can be said is that nothing is broken, nothing is wrong with the balance between the ranged martial classes and more than anything:

Different classes are different.

Quote:

Or are you, like most people, not able to see the fnords?

What the heck is a fnord?

The only thing comming to mind is a lab mouse asking another one where to find rubber pants in their size...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnord

It is a statement to misdirect. I'm not sure if he is saying that the whole "X is as powerful as the player is!!!LOL" comments are Fnord or if he believes it and what everyone else is saying is Fnord... I'll reserve my judgement of his post till that is more clear.

Anyone else dislike the rules for firearms misfire? I feel that I might get rid of that after seeing how my players do with the gunslinger in our current game.

We also ignore encumbrance, ammo, ALL spell components(regardless of value) and we allow vital strike on the charge.

Quandary wrote:

Talonhawke, I suggest you read up on Jason Bulmahn`s (author of the rules) explanation of the Attack action re: Vital Strike, available on d20pfsrd.com`s FAQ section (under Vital Strike).

Utter garbage.

Why do you say that? (Just wondering.)

Wait, what? Nodachi is strictly better than both the martial version of the bastard sword (martial; 2H; 1d10; 19-20/x2; no Special Qualities), AND the Elvish Curveblade (exotic; 2H; 1d10; 18-20/x2; no Special Qualities)? To be generously fair, Elvish curveblades have Elf in them, allowing them to be considered martial. But that's crazy.

And with the precedent set (katanas and wakizashis are both exotic), this just looks like a brain-fart.

Ehhh. Don't like it.

Also, Ninja/samurai auto-proficiency with katana bugs me a bit. If it's proficiency with katana as a martial weapon, I'm totally fine with that, from both a flavor standpoint (surely real ninja and samurai could wield a katana as a 2-hander), and a mechanical one (Surely the alt-rogue and alt-cavalier shouldn't get exotic weapon proficiency over and above their base forms without any real tradeoff). But otherwise, it bugs me. Not every samurai could wield a katana one-handed. In fact, the few who could were widely considered exceptional.

Bah. Rule zero to the rescue until errata arrives.

Its not like the katana is incredibly powerful either though.

Treantmonk wrote:

From an in-game perspective the argument is that if you were to play a character from level 1 with crafting feats, that character would be able to use his share of the party funds to create those items at cost, and would therefore have more items in terms of value than his non-crafting teammates.

In other words, if you take two 10th level characters, one with crafting feats and one without and give them equal valued equipment, the one with crafting feats is weaker (as he has no benefit currently from those feats).

The problem I have with that argument is that it assumes the party always get's 100% of their treasure in the form of gold bricks, never as items or objects that they sell for 50%.

EDIT : It also assumes that the GM is following WBL guidelines as a guideline on what he hands out, not a guideline on what the party has in equipment at a given level.

My personal belief is that WBL is a guide to what the character should have at a given level, not what they should have received over that many levels. Following this logic allows one to do things like sunder weapons and equipment, because the PCs will find something to replace it and bring their WBL back up to where it should be. Following WBL the way you suggest above would mean that a sundered weapon or item is a giant chunk of money taken out of his WBL, which is never replaced. If we want to go that route, then the item crafting wizard who saves money on items should be rolling to see if any of them got toasted after being created, and he got a chunk of money biten out of his WBL.

Yes, I know, you agreed there's no rules to allow it, not picking on you Treant, just pointing out the logical inconsistency.

As the book does not specify it as owned wealth or just as gold i can see that as a point of contention...

Ok so nothing to do with the class but crafting feats the rules are a gray area and its more of DMs discretion then?

Any idea what would have given him this idea? was it that way in a one of the old D&D editions?

Last night i had a player get into a big argument during character creation, I listened to the whole thing from the next room. Player one is a Wizard, he insists that Wizards get to buy starting gear at half price. I'm not finding anything close to this. Afterwards one person mentions you may be able to through item creation feats but, again I can't seem to find anything. Eventually we decided to just watch some TV and have a drink to diffuse the situation and completely forgot about the game.

I was wondering if someone could tell me if there is a rule somewhere that reduces the cost of starting gear due to class, feat, ect.

I was under the impression that things that increased critical range don't stack with one another.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-critical-combat-
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons#TOC-Keen

Ect.

Also here is the next from Targeting in the 2nd round play test.

Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action,
the gunslinger can make a firearm attack with greater
accuracy and effect. When she makes this attack, she can
choose part of the body to target, and gains the following
effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a
creature does not have one of the listed body locations,
that part cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to
perform no matter which part of the creature she targets.
Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune
to these effects.
• Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit
but drops one carried item of the gunslinger’s choice,
even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held
in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit.
• Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also
confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.
• Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and
knocked prone. Creatures that are immune to trip
attacks are immune to this effect.
• Torso: Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20.
• Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and
begins to fall.

Torso says nothing about stacking.

Wow... someone actually posted that? TWICE?

I hope he is, I'm planning on playing one in our next campaign. :)

Its really not. There are a couple of things you have to look at either:

Posters have not played them and they saw "Touch attack" and freaked out without trying it

Posters have not played them and just have some "napkin math" to prove a point

Posters are still complaining about "Stunning shot" not having a save and being OP, Paizo has said it will have a save when the book comes out.

Posters are mad that the "Flavor" does not fit their "image" of the game and while that's fine lots of people keep trying to prove that there is something broken because they can't just say "I don't like it"

The people that have playtested them, especially along side of other ranged attackers, have shown that if anything the Round 2 playtest Gunslinger was LESS powerful than Archery and Xbow fighters. They do alright but the only thing that WAS overpowered was Stunning shot which, when the book comes out, will have a save DC.

UltimaGabe wrote:

Retech wrote:

I don't see it. It has -2 overall to stats, which is -4 worse than a standard race. It's spell-like abilities are essentially useless past level 6 for a wizard and the spell resistance actually hinders you because it means that if you want a party member to heal or buff you, you'll have to lower your spell resistance as a standard action.

Alright, the gloves are coming off.

Penalties to dump stats are NOT a balancing factor. If you were playing a character where Strength or Charisma were even remotely relevant, I would be more willing to agree- except you cheesed your character out so that you could completely tank your charisma and it wouldn't hurt you one bit. (Roleplaying cannot be a balancing factor either.) Spell-Like Abilities useless? Blur is useless? CONSTANT Nondetection is useless? Maybe at levels 15+, when everything has True Seeing, maybe. But as you made it obvious with your attempt at justifying cheating into Mystic Theurge, this campaign likely won't be getting that high. And Spell Resistance is a bonus, not a hindrance. (Yes, it applies to party members too. But you can be buffed and healed outside of battle. The benefits FAR outweigh the penalties.) And as if that's all the race gets!

A +2 to AC that stacks with EVERYTHING. +2 to all saves that stacks with EVERYTHING. Stonecunning, which allows you a Perception check without even needing to know you're making one. Low-Light Vision AND Darkvision TWICE THE RANGE OF ANY OTHER PC RACE. +2 to Perception and Stealth, arguably the two most important skills in the game. Plus a +1 to the DC of all illusion spells- which would be negligible, but it's important to note that of course you're one of the few classes that can benefit from it. (I'd ignore that if you were, say, a rogue or something. But of course you're not.)

Add in the fact that your math is horribly wrong. You have a +4 stat item in your inventory at half the cost (8,000 rather than 16,000). You also have one stat that started as a

...

ITT: Munchkin trying to justify his "I'm better than you" game play.

Retech wrote:

I don't see it. It has -2 overall to stats, which is -4 worse than a standard race. It's spell-like abilities are essentially useless past level 6 for a wizard and the spell resistance actually hinders you because it means that if you want a party member to heal or buff you, you'll have to lower your spell resistance as a standard action.

Alright, the gloves are coming off.

Penalties to dump stats are NOT a balancing factor. If you were playing a character where Strength or Charisma were even remotely relevant, I would be more willing to agree- except you cheesed your character out so that you could completely tank your charisma and it wouldn't hurt you one bit. (Roleplaying cannot be a balancing factor either.) Spell-Like Abilities useless? Blur is useless? CONSTANT Nondetection is useless? Maybe at levels 15+, when everything has True Seeing, maybe. But as you made it obvious with your attempt at justifying cheating into Mystic Theurge, this campaign likely won't be getting that high. And Spell Resistance is a bonus, not a hindrance. (Yes, it applies to party members too. But you can be buffed and healed outside of battle. The benefits FAR outweigh the penalties.) And as if that's all the race gets!

A +2 to AC that stacks with EVERYTHING. +2 to all saves that stacks with EVERYTHING. Stonecunning, which allows you a Perception check without even needing to know you're making one. Low-Light Vision AND Darkvision TWICE THE RANGE OF ANY OTHER PC RACE. +2 to Perception and Stealth, arguably the two most important skills in the game. Plus a +1 to the DC of all illusion spells- which would be negligible, but it's important to note that of course you're one of the few classes that can benefit from it. (I'd ignore that if you were, say, a rogue or something. But of course you're not.)

Add in the fact that your math is horribly wrong. You have a +4 stat item in your inventory at half the cost (8,000 rather than 16,000). You also have one stat that started as a six, which is one below...

Its funny when munchkins try to shove their way into games by pretending they don't know they're breaking the rules or rolling up a purely OP cheese character that is meant to "Win" D&D/PF. People like this should stick to their MMO's to feel good about themselves.

Tip: the only things munchkins do is ruin the game for normal players, stop trying to destroy other peoples fun just so you can "Win at D&D"

Sounds like your DM is a.....jerk.

First off, out of character does not require in game skills. Ever. Not every player is as proficient with the game as another and to dock one or the other for helping each other OOC is complete BS.

Second off, to dock XP is just about always bull and any DM threatening his players in anyway is a sign of a poor DM. If he doesn't have control of the game that is his fault but you only need to control so much, what to players discuss out of game is not something that should be controlled.

The last time I had a DM threaten me with something like "minor XP loss" or "wealth loss" I proceeded to tell everyone the answer to the next half dozen situations out of game and walked out, I tried to help a new player and he only wanted to kill players over and over. There is no reason to be a jerk and then expect respect or cooperation in return. But assuming you want to keep talking to the DM I would pull him aside when you guys take a break of away from game time and tell him that it was uncalled for even if he is the DM and that you have every right to discuss out of character when ever and where ever you want.

Alternatively you could avoid the issue and use Texting or, if you game close to computers, AIM or facebook messenger to discuss things so that he can't throw a fit about it.

The real answer here is that your DM is trying to regulate something he has no right to regulate. Yea its his game, his world but conversation outside of his world and his game is not his to punish you for. whats next? "You made out with my sister! -1 level!"

ArmoredSaint wrote:

DM from hell wrote:

Gunslingers have the base attack bonus of a fighter, why do they need to do touch attacks in order to hit?

While I'm cool with having guns in my fantasy world, I don't think I would ever, ever permit this class in my game. Touch attacks *and* a fighter's attack bonus? No way! I'd really like to see something done to rein in the power of firearms; they don't need to totally ignore armour, IMO. But the designers have made it clear that that aren't open to discussion on that issue at all...

Is this class the pet project of one of the designers who wants his own personal "Mary Sue" class to own all the others or something? I just can't see how any of this is a good idea at all, and I don't understand why the designers are being so obstinate with refusing to consider revising the overpowered mechanics. Thus, it looks like they're *really* pushing to have this class enjoy a huge pile of benefits that are unavailable to other characters.

The Gunslinger just has "someone's baby" written all over it...

Slow down now. How about you build a gunslinger at any level of your choosing and we'll show you how craptastic you really are.

and whoever is doing the numbers with the musket, you do realize the re-load time on a musket right? You have to spend a grit every round (if you took rapid and fast reload) to fire more then one shot, and if you move you don't get to shoot at all.

The person you are replying to is having a knee jerk reaction because they don't know how things work. When they realize that a musket gunslinger VS a archery or xbow fighter usually has the gunslinger on the losing end then they will chill out. Either that or look at a fighter with a greataxe VS a musket gunslinger has, again, the gunslinger coming out on bottom for that matter.

DM from hell wrote:

Gunslingers have the base attack bonus of a fighter, why do they need to do touch attacks in order to hit?

While I'm cool with having guns in my fantasy world, I don't think I would ever, ever permit this class in my game. Touch attacks *and* a fighter's attack bonus? No way! I'd really like to see something done to rein in the power of firearms; they don't need to totally ignore armour, IMO. But the designers have made it clear that that aren't open to discussion on that issue at all...

Is this class the pet project of one of the designers who wants his own personal "Mary Sue" class to own all the others or something? I just can't see how any of this is a good idea at all, and I don't understand why the designers are being so obstinate with refusing to consider revising the overpowered mechanics. Thus, it looks like they're *really* pushing to have this class enjoy a huge pile of benefits that are unavailable to other characters.

The Gunslinger just has "someone's baby" written all over it...

You have no idea what you are talking about. The gunslinger at close range just barely eecks out better than a archery fighter and is just a little worse at long range. Maybe we should also remove all +to hit abilities of the archery fighter so that we can go back to no one playing anything but casters!

You are basing your statements on what you have read while comparing it to what you know, This is not what you know. This is something different and until you try it you won't know. Stop trying to think of it as a fighter with touch attacks, Gunslingers do NOT get all the other class abilities that fighters get.

Most posters on here opposing the gunslinger have not played one and have either

A) Played in a group with one with different levels of min/maxing.

This is a player issue and is a flaw with play testing. Until others are on the same level as you with making the most of your toon then it is not a good comparison. On top of that if you play with out min maxing then anyone complaining about over powered vs under powered are tools and should be ignored. Its like a non-min/maxed specialist wizard complaining that a fighter that took the perfect build being over powered.

B) DM'd with one and had no idea what to do or how the class worked so they are mad.

If your DMing and have no idea what the class does or how it works then that is your problem. Learn a class before playing with it OR deal with the people abusing the rules or possibly learning it while they play it.

C) played one, twinked it out and their fellow players were mad because they were better.

Again, a "Deal with it!" type situation. When all players are properly geared to their max potential the gunslinger is no more or less underpowered/overpowered than a crossbow or archery fighter or any caster. Infact MOST casters are better off then gunslingers and beyond 20 feet any well geared/spec'd xbow/bow fighter are better off. The fact that people are mad that at close range you are good or that you did more damage than they are are just compensating for their lack of real life ability and made you stomped on their epeen(so to speak)

D) Dislike the fluff and how it fits in with their prime idea of fantasy gaming.

Thats fine! Then say it, don't allow it and stop stomping on others likes and tastes. Others opinions are just as correct as yours and there is no reason why you should force yours down someone elses throat. Just play with out them, either make your feelings about guns know to your DM and that you would like to avoid them OR if you are DMing then DISALLOW them!

"But but they're in a book and my players..." Stop. Your world, if you can't put your foot down and say "No." Then you are a terrible DM.

Wow resurrection of an old thread,

1. the only thing we allowed was for the gunslinger to use his gun as light melee weapon. That in no way overbalanced the character.
2. every medieval gun was built to be a melee weapon, that without question is a historical fact. Most were built to be even tougher than melee weapons because they were controlling an explosion.
3. We have been playing the kingmaker campaign from the beginning. And even the gunslinger is tired of the gunslingers abilities. Starting the fifth book we are going to try the gunslinger with rogue BAB. We think this will make it more reasonable on it's excessive accuracy. Wizard with touch attack spell no where near as nasty as a fighter with touch attacks.

I own 2 pepperbox's, or percussion revolvers as I know them to be called. they are neat and I am afraid to shoot them after a misfire. They are more solid than my sledgehammer, if they werent worth so much I would make a video of me hammering nails with them. (pretty sure those little scratches will reduce their value)

as to the drop in round, umm its a fantasy world, we have bottles that when they break open they burst into flames can you show me where this historically exists? Otherwise why not accept this idea of drop in rounds.

Regardless the book will be out soon and we will see what the players choose to do when we start the next campaign.

The simple fact is you are making a gunslinger unbalanced by giving him functionality he does not have. On top of that you are playing a game with unbalanced players seeing as poor choices, such as the barb refusing to use a magic weapon, effect the outcome of the fight more than the gunslinger who is playing properly and making good choices. You can't base the power of a class based on the comparison to someone who is purposefully handicapping themselves while you are changing the rules to suit your own choices.

Have you ever attempted to play the gunslinger as the book states?

I will agree that not everything in a fantasy world NEEDS to be the same as in the real world. Thats why its a fantasy world. To say everything needs to be the same sort of kills the idea of fantasy.

you dont listen well and you are either lying or have no idea what you are talking about. there is no such thing as a drop in the barrell and fire pouch. you HAVE to ram that in. that is FACT.

a cross bow i will concede to because i dont look to 20th level as a guide to realism. i look at 1-5 for it. after that things get a bit out of hand. so once as a free action or even twice is seeable as VERY proficient. im not saying i am very good at either. just saying loading a crossbow is WAAAAAAAAAY faster than loading a black powder gun of any kind.
and yes you are right they dont fit my world well.

Calling names is just an admission of a failing argument. The fact is that when loading a paper cart into a pepper box all that needs done for it to function NOT TO BE CARRIED is the cart to be opened and the contents dropped in.

It WILL fire and it can be done quickly and with out a ram rod. NO you can not carry it that way as the ball and powder will come lose with too much movement BUT it will fire effectively enough for the 20-100ft range that pathfinder allows. I've done it before and while not optimal it will work.

On top of that a lot of pepperboxes can have their barrels switched out and with practice it can be done about as quick as reloading a revolver with a speed loader and a lot faster than you can reload a crossbow.

I have no problems with people not liking guns in their game. Thats a totally different issue and completely acceptable considering that the DM is in charge, it is his world and his game. But again, there is no reason for any DM or player to make it so that other people don't have options due to their personal preferences.

not at all. a crosbow is a sting you pull back on a slide that "locks." i can see that. i like the rule. a gun has powder, a bullet, and a primer. it must be set upright, the poweder poured in, the bullet pushed in, then the whole thing must be compressed with a ramrod. this is something that takes a couple minutes to those who know what theyre doing, 30 seconds to the fastest.

Bull. I own a xbow. I have shot, numerous times, black powder guns. If anything a 75lbs crossbow takes longer to load than a double barrel flintlock if you are using prepacked ammo (Paper carts rules wise) But for some reason its ok for me to be able to reload a xbow 5 times a round?

Do you know how to load the real world equivalent of a light crossbow? you point the bow down, pull a lever to pull the string back and lock it back, put the bolt in and bring the weapon back to your shoulder. Loading a blackpowder gun with prepacked ammo means you drop them into the barrel and fire. A long gun requires tamping in the ammo, most of the time hand guns do not.

i will concede that that would make guns a one and done weapon for a given combat, so that cannot be. but i will have the time to reload be a full round action, with rapid reload, a standard and with the alchemic a move. thats as nice as ill be, and its a stretch.

That's ridiculous seeing as you are basing your ideas on some "reality" that does not exist. and are discriminating against firearms for some unknown reason when there are many other things that are even less plausible. If you want to handicap them so bad then just come out and say you don't want them in your game.

You are more or less saying that pathfinder shouldn't have gunslingers. Remember, a pistol does 1d6 or 1d8 damage. Unless you are going to make them do d10 or d12 damage or have a wider crit range even with the x4 multiplier then you are making them useless. If you want to see guns made into one shot a turn weapon then lots of things need to change with them, they need to do more damage and/or have a wider chance to crit, otherwise they are useless as you are suggesting.

the other thing i will do with guns, is make them a simple weapon to fire, but require the exotic proficiency to reload.

i dont want guns to inundate my game, its medieval fantasy. there are aspects of the rennaisance in there, but the gun is already superior to the bow, it doesnt need to be able to be changed as fast as a semi auto clip to make it relevent.

Ah so there it is. "I have a prejudice to guns because of MY image of MY games" Then say that! Stop trying to post in a playtest like you have any supported input as to either the reality or rules. No problem with you feeling that you don't like them in your game but don't try to remove the options for someone else because of YOUR opinion on immersion and time periods.

Just wondering. How is a gun superior to a bow? (ignoring advanced fire arms)

Musket - 1,500 gold. 1d12 damage. crit x4 40ft range. rolls of 1-2 break the weapon. Touch attack when with in 40ft. Even with all of the feats you can get it can only be fired once a round. ONCE AND you can't move or you can't attack (Move action). Unless you are a gun slinger you don't add stats to the damage. Exotic weapon

Composite Longbow - 100 gold. 1d8 damage. Crit x3 110ft range. NO misfire. Can be fired as many times as you have base attack bonus. You add strength to the damage. Martial weapon.

Composite Greatbow (Complete warrior) - 200 gold. 1d10 damage. 130ft range. Crit x3. NO misfire. Can be fired as many times as you have base attack bonus. You add strength to the damage. Exotic weapon

So what is the advantage that guns "Already have" Over bows? That the fit your game more? Fine. But don't try and bend the rules so that the class you want to disallow in your games sucks for everyone. Don't force your opinion as fact.

i understand this is not a reenactment of real life, but the rules represent just that, to an extent. just giving perspective...

that being said the rules on free actions is that the GM can limit the number of uses of them to if he deems nessecery. in the case of reloading a pepperbox, i would DEFINATELY require more than a single free action to reload it even with the feat.

that being said, my argument is moot, as i just realized that the gunslinger should be able to reload at least 2 of the barrels as a free action, therefor negating the need for a reload turn, as he would be able to constantly reload what he had just fired...

guess i just dont like the idea of super fast firearms in the fantasy genre. i thought itd be cool, but theyre too modern in useablity. it should take a full action to reload, a standard with rapid reload, and a move with that and alchemical thing to move...

the attacks per round are a description of your chance at creating damage in a round, which yes 5 swings in 6 seconds is a tough one to see, but its a hell of alot more feasable than reloadng a muzzleloading rifle in the blink af an eye.

and i dont think that saying reality has no bearing here, it still does... to some extent.

Rapid reload also allows you to fire a light or hand Xbow as if it was a bow (IE as many times a round as your BaB allows) by making it a free action to reload.

This is also unrealistic. Do you plan on enforcing the same limitations on Xbow users?

im not sure i agree. the pepper box is 6 barrels. even with the alchemical cartridge and rapid reload, ITS 6 BARRELLS! you cant do anything 6 times even free actions in a given turn. you still have to load each one as a free action. how many free actions do you get in a turn?

also was that thought through? cause the fastest soldiers in the revolutionary and civil wars could reload a rifle for ONE SHOT in like 30 seconds. that would be 5 rounds!

Again, it does not matter what reality is. Reloading a pepperbox is one action. Rapid reload and alchemical carts are a freeaction to reload.

No one in reality can swing a great sword 5 times in 6 seconds either. This not the civil war, this is not the real world. This is a fantasy world.

Also there is not a limit to free actions per round as far as I am aware.

also id like to point out that you allowed hom to reload in one round. the quick reload feat does not allow you to make an attack and reload the ENTIRE weapon as a move action. that gun is essentially 6 guns and takes the time 6 guns do to reload. even with the quick reload feat, he aint doin that in a round he also attacked in.

Also attacking with a ranged weapon in mellee, especially a fragile medieval gun, should provoke an attack of opportunity as you are using a makeshift weapon, and i think should have a good chance of forcing the firearm to get damaged. you cannot think of the guns of that era as the guns of the modern era, they werent built for mellee.

A couple of things. First off The things you are talking about are contrary to the rules.

Rapid reload says: The time required for you to reload your chosen type
of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow),
a move action (for a heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a
standard action (for a two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow
or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.

Alchemical cartridges says: Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier,
reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a fullround
action becomes a standard action, a standard
action becomes a move action, a move action becomes a
free action),

Clearly stating in the RAW that you can reload an entire pepperbox as a free action. There is nothing in the Pepperbox description that says otherwise.

Also Pistolwhip saysWhen she does, she is considered
to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and
gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to
the enhancement bonus of the firearm.

It says no where in the entry that it provokes an AoO and with the Deft Shootist feat there is no possibility of provoking an AoO with a gun at all.

As to your remark about the quality of weapons, have you ever handled a pepper box or old double barrel pistol? They were made extremely well and in some cases better than guns today. Just for a visual

http://gunsofold.com/images/fd1026.gif
http://www.fototime.com/6C268041CD7E543/orig.jpg

Do you see the metal plate on the bottom of the pepper box? or the fancy crown on the butt of the flint lock? Those were made expressly to hit someone in the face with. On top of that this game doesn't take place in our world. It takes place in a world of magic with a differnt timeline and many many materials that just plain don't exist (IE Mithril)

While your reality is off it really doesn't matter for rules as written game play balance should always trump realism.

Thanks carbon that gives me some things to work with.

Tengu gunslingers and Ifrit Ninjas.

I've wanted to play a Kenku since i first saw opened a first edition Fiend Folo when I was 8.... I finally have the DM, rules and circumstances to do it.

Ok so I'm drawing a total blank. Call me dumb but I can't think of anything except for a double barrel pistol, magic paper carts and armor for him. I've taken dodge, mobility, Deft shootist and rapid reload for my feats and I have just completely blown a gasket on gear. Any suggestions on essensials or fun things to take?

Ok so there are a couple of problems with the validity of your write up that I can see.

1) You used house rules for a gunslinger ability and complained your gunslinger was over powered.

By doing this you MADE the gunslinger more powerful but are now complaining that he is TOO powerful and honestly it does not matter one lick if you are all "Exmilitary" and meleeing with a gun "part of normal gun training." This is a fantasy world in a setting where, most of the time, guns are rare at best. There is "normal training" with guns. To be honest all of that is moot. The rules say X and you are complaining that the gunslinger is too powerful with house rules and them complained its too powerful.

2) You're players are not min/maxing and have an issue with other players being better than them at things. Your Barb refusing to use a better weapon is a big part of it. The barb should have been tearing through him. Either he is severely underpowered due to his own choices or he is rolling terrible.

A player purposefully handicapping themselves is not a reason to be upset at another class. I play concept characters a lot and so do lots of people i play with. None of us get mad when we do poorly under certain situations due to our choices in feats/skills/weapons/classes. Some classes scale better with certain choices of feats/skills/weapons and to judge a class based on others choices is a less than optimal idea.

If its because of the fact that your players were rolling poorly that is what happens with random numbers and to "outlaw" a class after one game seems a little bit of a knee jerk reaction.