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Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Or can you only turn it on during your turn?
¨You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn.¨
By RAW, I believe you can... There is no action, even a free action associated with it, you just decide before making an attack , which an AoO is.
Compare to Combat Expertise, which actually says ¨You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon.¨ So technically, you can´t use Combat Expertise in combo with Cleave or Spring Attack since those aren´t qualifying actions. (not RAI I suspect)
I gotta agree with Quandary and Vestrial: the wording of the feat contains zero information about what type of action this takes. Since it's not been assigned as a standard, swift, or free action, by the actual wording of the text, you should be able to choose to do it before you take your AoO, and it'll last until "your next turn" -- which in this case, could very possibly be quite soon.
If Paizo decides to assign an action type to Power Attack, they can do that -- but I'm realizing this game is really predicated on what words actually appear in the text, and many of the problems occur when something important isn't there.
It seems like they've had plenty of time to have errata'd Power Attack, if they were ever going to do so. My guess is it hasn't been altered because there is no intention of doing so ... which means it isn't limited to something you can do only on your turn, since the feat never says this.
I'll wager I'm half-right...
You have to call it before you make an attack roll. So you can't normal attack on your round, then turn PA on for an attack AoO.
But I suppose you can if you didn't attack on your turn.
I'll wager you're half right in the wrong way... ;)
If you PA on your turn, you MUST PA your AoO. If you dont PA on your turn, you MAY PA your AoO.
Seconded. The wording specifically says before and attack roll and an AoO is a type of attack roll.
I think InsaneFox maybe getting confused between an Attack Roll and an Attack Action. They are 2 different things.
If you normal attack on your turn, then decide to Power Attack on an AoO, that means you've chosen to activate Power Attack AFTER you made an attack roll in that round.
But it doesn't say you have to activate power attack on your turn. You just have to activate it before you make an attack roll, it doesn't matter which attack roll.
Insane fox:
Your conclusions are not in the text, anywhere. It might be the intent but it didn't make it into the raw.
Power Attack specifically states in its feat description, "You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn."My conclusions all come from this sentence.
"You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll"
You can make an attack roll when it is not your turn. Similarly, you can Full Attack and only Power Attack on your last attack (if you wanted). Making 4 regular attacks and 1 single PA adjusted attack.
The only thing that sentence means is that the adjustment for Power Attack lasts until your next turn. It does not restrict you to actvating it in your turn or it would be worded like Combat Expertise (as mentioned before).
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Let's say you full attack. You choose to not Power Attack on your first attack. On your second attack you decide to Power Attack... BUT, you already made an attack roll (your first attack) so you no longer qualify for using Power Attack on this turn.
I'm sorry to disagree, but I am glad to understand what you're saying a little better. Power Attack explicitly states you can choose to employ this feat before "making an attack roll".
It does not say "making the first attack roll during your turn". Again, look at combat expertise if you want to see how Paizo words feats that only trigger at the beginning of Full Attacks.
I apologize, my example is incomplete.
Let's say, the character doesn't make an attack on his turn. An enemy provokes an AoO. Since the character hasn't made an attack this round. He may activate Power Attack.
If he had attacked, and not used Power Attack on his turn, he would have to wait for his next turn to activate Power Attack. Thus being unable to activate it on his AoO.
I appreciate you adding that clarification, however, you're still adding a limit that is not set by the feat, but by your own interpretation.
My interpretation is no more or less right/wrong than anybody elses in lieu of evidence that it's inaccurate.
If we go with your example in the second paragraph it would be impossible to activate Power Attack in a combat - after the character's first attack roll.
Why?
They made "an attack roll" and are now ineligible to use Power Attack for the rest of combat. When does power attack's availablity it reset? You suggest next turn, I suggest never. It is extreme, but the rules support both (by your interpretation). Surely this is not the intention of the feat.
There is no language for power attack that limits how or when it can be used durng your turn or during your AoO. Notice that the attack roll part is not linked to "its effects last until your next turn"
It's effects last until the next turn. Which could imply that any restriction imposed by the feat, is an effect that lasts until the next turn.
No this would not apply, because you're not activating the feat until you enact the usage of power attack. That cannot apply as you have not used any of the feats effects yet, thus the limit listed in the feat does not apply (you haven't used it yet).
The attack roll quotation instead governs when the Power Attack feat is available to be utilized by a player (that is whenever you make an attack roll, you can choose to use Power Attack).
Regardless of their intent. I strongly believe Power Attack could use better wording in its description.hard to say what the designers intended.
Insane Fox probably remembers from 3.5 where the wording was:
Benefit: On the character's action, before making attack rolls for a round, the character may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed the character's base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage applies until the character's next action.
If you choose to believe that the developers kept the same intent there is evidence; the wording is similiar - before making attack rolls.
Fine, but we have to use the wording that exists now, and the wording that exists now says you may use Power Attack whenever you make an attack roll. No action type is given.
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My interpretation is no more or less right/wrong than anybody elses in lieu of evidence that it's inaccurate.
We must now put our faith in the hallowed FAQ button. Surely, if we pray, it shall deliver us.
EDIT: It's effects last until the next turn. Which could imply that any restriction imposed by the feat is an effect that lasts until the next turn.
Garbage. Your personal interpretation doesn't have equal validity just because you declare it so, doubly so when your interpretation is simply inconsistent with the express RAW.
An AOO is a melee attack. You make an attack roll.
The words used are clear. The designers could have used different words. They chose not to.
Every time someone calls for a FAQ for something this silly you decrease the prospect of designers providing input on things that do need clarification.
My interpretation is no more or less right/wrong than anybody elses in lieu of evidence that it's inaccurate.
We must now put our faith in the hallowed FAQ button. Surely, if we pray, it shall deliver us.
EDIT: It's effects last until the next turn. Which could imply that any restriction imposed by the feat is an effect that lasts until the next turn.
Garbage. Your personal interpretation doesn't have equal validity just because you declare it so, doubly so when your interpretation is simply inconsistent with the express RAW.
An AOO is a melee attack. You make an attack roll.
The words used are clear. The designers could have used different words. They chose not to.
Every time someone calls for a FAQ for something this silly you decrease the prospect of designers providing input on things that do need clarification.
unnecesarily agressive, Insane Fox has a valid point considering the wording of the feat in 3.5, on a personal note I do not allow characters to turn their last attack in a power attack because it only hits on a 20 anyway for example, the 'RAW' rule invites metagaming. For the same reasons I would not have someone that has been attacking without power attack in the same turn switch it on for AoO.
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Its stuff like this that annoys me about PF - what was absolutely clear in 3.5 gets made ambiguous in the "upgrade".
In 3.5 SRD Power Attack is:
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Its stuff like this that annoys me about PF - what was absolutely clear in 3.5 gets made ambiguous in the "upgrade".
In 3.5 SRD Power Attack is:
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Hehe yeah I guess some rules became more ambiguous but in general I think most 3.5 had been clarified more in Pathfinder.
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Hehe yeah I guess some rules became more ambiguous but in general I think most 3.5 had been clarified more in Pathfinder.
Most perhaps, but certainly not all - unfortunately it then becomes a debate as to whether dropping what was a clarifying piece of text in 3.5 was deliberate and a change to 3.5, or just poor editing / rephrasing :( Grapple is one of the main offenders for this :(
the reason for the text "you must choose this feat before making an attack roll" is so you can't make the roll, realize that you would still hit with power attack, and turn it on then. It has nothing to do with when that attack comes (on your turn or AoO)
now searching for something to quote I came up with this from the PFSRD that I wish I hadn't seen...
Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.
sooo... can't activate it after your turn?
the reason for the text "you must choose this feat before making an attack roll" is so you can't make the roll, realize that you would still hit with power attack, and turn it on then. It has nothing to do with when that attack comes (on your turn or AoO)
now searching for something to quote I came up with this from the PFSRD that I wish I hadn't seen...sooo... can't activate it after your turn?Attack Roll
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target's Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.
The quoted bold part must have been added by designers completly thoughtlessly - AoO and readied attacks also involve attack rolls.
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You guys are all focusing on the wrong game element. Ignore the feat for a minute, and take a look at AoO's:
You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
AoO's take place outside the normal combat routines, and aren't impacted by the goings-on inside the turn. If they were, you'd only get the roll at your 'current' bonus or some such. But they don't work that way, they're just a free shot taken at your 'normal attack bonus'.
Since PA isn't your 'normal attack bonus' the answer is clearly 'no, you cannot'.
What did I win? :)
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You guys are all focusing on the wrong game element. Ignore the feat for a minute, and take a look at AoO's:
You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.AoO's take place outside the normal combat routines, and aren't impacted by the goings-on inside the turn. If they were, you'd only get the roll at your 'current' bonus or some such. But they don't work that way, they're just a free shot taken at your 'normal attack bonus'.
Since PA isn't your 'normal attack bonus' the answer is clearly 'no, you cannot'.
What did I win? :)
You win "Troll of the Day", since by that logic your AoO's gain no benefit from Inspire Courage, bless, etc and are immune to things like the witch's Evil Eye hex or other attack penalties. Either that, or you simply can't take AoO's at all while under any such effects.
Fail.
They probably either need to add the phrase "on your turn" or remove the phrase "lasts until your next turn" because otherwise it seems odd to me that you're stuck with it once you turn it on but you can seemingly turn it on at will. If you can turn it on at will why are you stuck with it?
I realize by RAW you can turn it on at will as long as it is before you roll your attack, but I run it the old 3.5 way in my game. It just makes more sense that way. You're going all out, and it is a conscious decision to do so at the start of your turn.
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My interpretation is no more or less right/wrong than anybody elses in lieu of evidence that it's inaccurate.
We must now put our faith in the hallowed FAQ button. Surely, if we pray, it shall deliver us.
EDIT: It's effects last until the next turn. Which could imply that any restriction imposed by the feat is an effect that lasts until the next turn.
Garbage. Your personal interpretation doesn't have equal validity just because you declare it so, doubly so when your interpretation is simply inconsistent with the express RAW.
An AOO is a melee attack. You make an attack roll.
The words used are clear. The designers could have used different words. They chose not to.
Every time someone calls for a FAQ for something this silly you decrease the prospect of designers providing input on things that do need clarification.
You might want to make a ride check to dismount that high horse.
Insane Fox's interpretation IS valid. The wording CAN be interpreted either way.
Many people in these forums claim the rules-as-written are clear when they are not. In most cases they are not explicitly clear. I may or may not agree with Fox's interpretation, but that doesn't make his opinion any less valuable to the discussion at hand. If you disagree with his interpretation, fine, counter it with logical rebuttal, not a dismissive hand-wave.
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You win "Troll of the Day", since by that logic your AoO's gain no benefit from Inspire Courage, bless, etc and are immune to things like the witch's Evil Eye hex or other attack penalties. Either that, or you simply can't take AoO's at all while under any such effects.Fail.
Ouch. That's rather rude, isn't it? I quoted my reference, where's yours?
Unless such things actually modify your 'normal attack', then AoO's in fact ARE immune to them. Is this, or is it not, what the rules actually say?
Further, if you're going to rule that PA qualifies as a 'normal attack', then why not Flurry of Blows as well?
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You win "Troll of the Day", since by that logic your AoO's gain no benefit from Inspire Courage, bless, etc and are immune to things like the witch's Evil Eye hex or other attack penalties. Either that, or you simply can't take AoO's at all while under any such effects.Fail.
Ouch. That's rather rude, isn't it? I quoted my reference, where's yours?
Unless such things actually modify your 'normal attack', then AoO's in fact ARE immune to them. Is this, or is it not, what the rules actually say?
Further, if you're going to rule that PA qualifies as a 'normal attack', then why not Flurry of Blows as well?
But he is right, if you claim that PA does not work in an AoO due to the "normal attack bonus" then nothing else does either. Per the PRD:
Attack Bonus
Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier
With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is the following:
Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty
Armor Class...
Note that it says nothing about anything else adding to that. Just Bab + STR mod+ Size mod. Anything else is outside of the 'Normal attack Bonus'.
this also means that any effects that hurt you also do not count in the AoO.
Power Attack specifically states in its feat description, "You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn."
My conclusions all come from this sentence.
And the supposition that you will only make attack rolls during your turn.
1) My move action
2) My attack action
3) Enemy 1 moving through a threatened square
4) Enemy 2 moving through a threatened square
5) Enemy 3 moving through a threatened square
At 2 is before an attack roll. At 3 is before an attack roll. At 4 is before an attack roll if you have combat reflexes, the ONLY stipulation is that its before AN attack roll. Any time you make an attack roll there is a time before an attack roll. There is an attack roll on attacks of opportunity.
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Ouch. That's rather rude, isn't it? I quoted my reference, where's yours?
You win "Troll of the Day", since by that logic your AoO's gain no benefit from Inspire Courage, bless, etc and are immune to things like the witch's Evil Eye hex or other attack penalties. Either that, or you simply can't take AoO's at all while under any such effects.Fail.
You mean Inspire Courage, bless, Evil Eye, etc? Or did you want me to somehow "reference" basic common sense? No, you just wanted to point out that you quoted something and I didn't, to make it look like you were on more solid ground. Nice try, but I'm pretty sure everyone saw through that.
Unless such things actually modify your 'normal attack', then AoO's in fact ARE immune to them. Is this, or is it not, what the rules actually say?
No, it's not. "Normal" attack bonus just means unmodified by the action at hand, not completely devoid of any modifiers whatsoever. If your idea was true, you'd also have to remove BAB and STR (since those modify what your "normal" attack bonus would otherwise be) and be left with a +0 on every AoO no matter what the circumstances.
Further, if you're going to rule that PA qualifies as a 'normal attack', then why not Flurry of Blows as well?
As soon as you show me where I said that, I'd be happy to answer that question. Pointing out a ridiculous argument is not the same as arguing for the opposite position.
By the logic of "It's effects last until the next turn." not affecting AoOs neither would the benefits of Combat Expertise (Granting additional AC from reduced chance to hit) last beyond your attack sequence.
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Pointing out a ridiculous argument is not the same as arguing for the opposite position.Then, please do take a position.
Why? It's not like I need one in order to spot an absurdity. I do have a position, but since you only want me to declare it so you can focus on that instead of addressing the serious flaws I pointed out in your own argument, I'll refrain for now.
Back it up with quotes, if you can, and I may be convinced otherwise.
Unlikely. Especially given that I *did* provide references in the post you just quoted, but you completely skipped over them. (See also the above paragraph about taking a position.)
Your opinion isn't worth much to me, I am sorry.
That's okay.
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Out of an effort to be civil, I suppose I'll try to guess. Though I'd appreciate it if my guess is allowed to be justifiably inaccurate since I stipulate that I'm not a mind reader. If my guess can be modified a bit to fit reality, please do so and I'll stipulate to that as well.
You seem to be saying that competence and morale bonuses count during an AoO. I understand why you're making that point, but I can find no rules to support it. I'm genuinely wondering if you have any, and in fact I'm asking so. The words 'attack of opportunity' appear in none of your links, and I'm not disputing that those links describe modifiers to attack rolls.
So, if your definition of 'normal attack' roll means 'an attack roll with all the applicable modifiers at the start of your turn', then I might be willing to accept that.
Technically, though, I believe the rules call for an unmodified attack roll. I further understand this to be the same as the standard action attack, and not a full attack or fighting defensively or anything else that might modify it.
Does it make a lot of sense? No. But I believe that is intended to help keep away from bookkeeping issues. You're supposed to look at the character sheet, see the 'attack' value and use that.
Unless you're aware of something in the rules that I'm not, I don't understand the vigor behind your attacks.