This is another of these things that is all over Pathfinder, and it's totally intentional: They won't explain everything, they won't reveal everything, they won't detail everything. Who's the mayor of that little coastal village a dozen miles east of Westcrown? Who is Doctor D? How did Aroden die?
Actually, this slightly irks me.
I would rather they say, flat out, "We won't fill in the blanks. That's for you and your campaign." How and why did Aroden die? Where did humans come from? There is no answer; make it up.
Never say never.
As a publisher, you definitely don't want to make promises that have "always" or "never" in them. If, 25 years down the road, you have the perfect idea for a perfect product but that would mean revealing one of the secrets you swore to never reveal, you can either break that promise, or throw away said perfect product.
So you don't make promises that might bite you in the arse later.
Also, Why isn't the Hermean gold dragon considered tarnished? I look at him and Lawful Neutral seems written on his shiny carapace.
I think they have to turn evil to tarnish.
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Isn't that what WotC did with 4E FR, Eberron and Darksun? Campaign setting and then one module? (I admit that I have not closely followed 4E in a long time, so I may be wrong).
Honestly, if a company just up and closed the doors on a campaign setting right after publishing the first book, I would be mystified. And I probably wouldn't play it.
*blinks*
4e Forgotten Realms? Never heard of it.
*returns to blissful delusion*
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Well, I'm pretty sure most of the 75 or so other posts before mine said this, too, but,....
and
I understand that it's a reasonable idea to include them in Pathfinder somewhere but my goodness, these two places could exist a long way out from the Inner Sea, say -- Eox or Bretheda, maybe.
They could, but they aren't. Because they're awesome!
EDIT: Oh yeah, and there's a slight problem with the hinted-at deities of Tian Xia and Fantasy India (can't remember the name). It implies that most if not all of the default gods are regional deities, and yet they're usually treated as if they're the only gods.
They are, to some extent, regional deities. Even the 20 "core deities" are regional dieties. They originally come from a certain race or area but their faith has spread all over the Inner Sea Region, and sometimes beyond.
But not all of them are global or go even beyond. In fact, there are probably no deities that are global, let alone universal. There are corners of Golarion where they're not worshipped at all, not even with a different name.
I mean, where were Iori and his three thousand siblings when Rovagug was trying to eat the planet?
Fighting alongside. Or they didn't exist yet. Or they never heard of it.
Did Aroden's death matter to the people on the other side of the world who never knew he was alive?
I don't think so. While it's said that he was god of humanity, it's probably more accurate to state that he was god of humanity in the ISR.
Sure, it makes no sense that gods - omnipresent creatures - are a localised phenomenon. But they don't have to make sense. We're talking about religion and faith here. They laugh at human logic and their limited conceptions of limits and limitlessness.
There are dozens of mutually contradictory creation myths out there for the same reason.
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Never say never.
Well, in this thread...
Aroden's not even the only god (or super-powered being) that has this treatment - the Peacock Spirit, Count Renalc, and even Nex all have the same stuff applied. It's a mystery for GMs to clarify and adapt to their own campaign.Interesting, and true. As an aside, Aroden, Count Ranalc, and Nex are all "my" NPCs (in that I created them), and I have plenty more to say about all of them. So while I'm not 100% sure we'll ever come out and say "so here is the deal with Aroden's death," I am dead certain that a lot more about all of these characters will be revealed in the future.
I think they have to turn evil to tarnish.
Just so you know, gold doesn't tarnish...
EDIT:
EDIT: Oh yeah, and there's a slight problem with the hinted-at deities of Tian Xia and Fantasy India (can't remember the name). It implies that most if not all of the default gods are regional deities, and yet they're usually treated as if they're the only gods.
They are, to some extent, regional deities. Even the 20 "core deities" are regional dieties. They originally come from a certain race or area but their faith has spread all over the Inner Sea Region, and sometimes beyond.
But not all of them are global or go even beyond. In fact, there are probably no deities that are global, let alone universal. There are corners of Golarion where they're not worshipped at all, not even with a different name.
They're the only gods with any direct influence in the Inner Sea Region. Recently, I saw James Jacobs mention something about the possibilities of the power and mysticism in the number twenty in Golarion - that's really interesting. Also, taking a look at the older pantheons that have existed, it seems like there've always been roughly 20 in a pantheon... an interesting concept.
I mean, where were Iori and his three thousand siblings when Rovagug was trying to eat the planet?
Fighting alongside. Or they didn't exist yet. Or they never heard of it.
Irori certainly didn't exist yet. He didn't ascend until after the Age of Darkness, AFAIK. Many of his sibling deities didn't either. Many of the current deities didn't exist when Rovagug was ravaging everything. Even those that existed then weren't necessarily divine. Saranrae ascended to divinity because she battled Rovagug. I put up a timeline somewhere based on what I can tell... I might link it.
Did Aroden's death matter to the people on the other side of the world who never knew he was alive?
I don't think so. While it's said that he was god of humanity, it's probably more accurate to state that he was god of humanity in the ISR.
Actually, yeah, it did. But similarly, there were empires, regions, and powers other than Azlant and the Aboleths when the Aboleths destroyed the world. What happened to them? They sank with it. Aroden's death affected the entire planet. Most people just wouldn't know what happened. It's even possible that there's some kind of super-sympathy that stretches across time-space, meaning they have their own reasons for everything to occur... we don't know yet, because that hasn't been detailed.
Sure, it makes no sense that gods - omnipresent creatures - are a localised phenomenon. But they don't have to make sense. We're talking about religion and faith here. They laugh at human logic and their limited conceptions of limits and limitlessness.
There are dozens of mutually contradictory creation myths out there for the same reason.
Well, that, and we have as some of the oldest deities (and other creatures) chaotic, uncaring, and/or purposefully deceitful creatures. So, you know. Like you! :P :D
Lovecraft getting his dirty talons progressively deeper into the setting
What? You're afraid? Your brand of insanity is delusion? :P
The Worldwound. "Oh, so you're all doomed and nothing can be done about it. Carry on about your Westcrown revolution, by the way"
I love that. It's very human. "There's a big problem, but it's not my problem. Someone else will take care of it." "It's looking grim, but what can I do about it? It's too big for me!" "I'll get to it once I solved these more immediate problems that affect me on a very personal level"
You can see humans practise this sort of thinking every single day.
Wall of the faithless-style afterlife for non-diety worshippers. It doesn't matter if you're a moral atheist, animist or follow some philosophy - either worship a certified diety, or off to groetus you go. Unless you're following a demon lord or archdevil, aparrently - they are extra special
Extra-special demon lords.
Followers of outsider lords aren't faithless.
And even otherwise it's not quite the Wall. LG souls go to heaven, CE souls to the abbyss.
An atheist on Golarion is quite different from an atheist in real life.
I think they have to turn evil to tarnish.
Dragons don't care about your science. They'll burn you to ash with their fire breath - and your last words will be "But that's impossible, a living thing cannot breathe fire!"
No, wait, actually, it will be "But that's impos-" Because that's as far as you'll get. No time to even scream.
Dragons don't care about your science. They'll burn you to ash with their fire breath - and your last words will be "But that's impossible, a living thing cannot breathe fire!"
No, wait, actually, it will be "But that's impos-" Because that's as far as you'll get. No time to even scream.
Hah! Show's what you know! They actually regurgitate fire! Ooh! In my face!
...Wait, something's wrong with tha-
*FWOOSH-GOES-THE-FLAMEY-DOOM*
That's your street's fault.I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.You realize that you have just described Earth, right?
-Kle.
Nah, I blame the pedestrian. You've got La Princesse, Le Grand Éléphant, and a freaking Gundam... what more do you want?
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I have often walked down this street beforeThat's your street's fault.I've never been walking down the street and encountered one of these.You realize that you have just described Earth, right?
-Kle.
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** spoiler omitted **More DA Chatter** spoiler omitted **You prefer dragon Origins and DA 2 then?I do.
** spoiler omitted **
more DA chatter
** spoiler omitted **
Well the elves have their own deities, and the Dwarves don't worship the Maker. (I think the Quinari don't either, not played all of DA 2 yet) so their gods seem to be like 'our' gods. (when's the last time G_d or Vishnu did a direct intervention. Andraste seems to have been an aberration in the godscape. Did the Teventer worship the Maker? I know the alleged origins of the darkspawn link them to the corruption of their city.
As for Andraste, she's likely just a folk hero (possibly a mage) who picked up a huge following.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Lovecraft getting his dirty talons progressively deeper into the setting What? You're afraid? Your brand of insanity is delusion? :P
The Worldwound. "Oh, so you're all doomed and nothing can be done about it. Carry on about your Westcrown revolution, by the way" I love that. It's very human. "There's a big problem, but it's not my problem. Someone else will take care of it." "It's looking grim, but what can I do about it? It's too big for me!" "I'll get to it once I solved these more immediate problems that affect me on a very personal level"
You can see humans practise this sort of thinking every single day.
Nope, Lovecraft just leaves me rolling my eyes. The big bad a huge octopus for crying out loud. The most severe problem is that behind the flowery language and assertions that its beyond the ken of mortals, the emperor is naked. There is just nothing behind it, being unthinkable and all. Whenever Lovecraft tries to deliver, it is octopus heads, giant jellyfish and fish boats ramming great old ones back to sleep.
It's a fantasy of artificial helplessness. Its the assertion that flipping the lightswitch was a bad idea, because huddling in fear is preferrable to even trying to fight. Not attractive to me.
Regarding the Worldwound - yes, I know. I use this to play anything but a futile struggle north in WFRP. However, having to rely on that too much just... doesn't work. Besides, I am kind of... burned on that. Warhammer and Exalted both feature worlds that essentially can't be saved, but merely be kept running for another day. I don't think this is a satisfying result on the longer run.
Nope, Lovecraft just leaves me rolling my eyes. The big bad a huge octopus for crying out loud. The most severe problem is that behind the flowery language and assertions that its beyond the ken of mortals, the emperor is naked. There is just nothing behind it, being unthinkable and all. Whenever Lovecraft tries to deliver, it is octopus heads, giant jellyfish and fish boats ramming great old ones back to sleep.
It's a fantasy of artificial helplessness. Its the assertion that flipping the lightswitch was a bad idea, because huddling in fear is preferrable to even trying to fight. Not attractive to me.
I like your breakdown of Lovecraft. Accurate, and illuminating in thought!
Regarding the Worldwound - yes, I know. I use this to play anything but a futile struggle north in WFRP. However, having to rely on that too much just... doesn't work. Besides, I am kind of... burned on that. Warhammer and Exalted both feature worlds that essentially can't be saved, but merely be kept running for another day. I don't think this is a satisfying result on the longer run.
I can see that take on it, but I don't quite think that's what the designers were thinking. To me, the World Wound constitutes a fantastic threat, but currently a contained one (although admittedly dubiously) via the stones. Because it's an active creation, it seems like it also probably has a source of unmaking - a point of destruction too. Besides, with Rovagug sitting somewhere in the middle of the planet, I'm not sure that the World Wound makes too much of a difference in the long run. :)
Still, I see your point and understand how it can easily look that way, too. I can see it!
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Sadly, gold dragons aren't really made of gold. I killed three before I figured that out.
Moon pies are also not made of moons. Really, where is the truth in advertising?
I KNOW, right?! Lame! I wanted to eat the moon! I mean, that stuff just looks delicious!
Followers of outsider lords aren't faithless.
And even otherwise it's not quite the Wall. LG souls go to heaven, CE souls to the abbyss.
An atheist on Golarion is quite different from an atheist in real life.
What book/source specifically discusses what happens to souls after death (Pharasma's duties, etc).
Also, you're saying the difference between an atheist in real life and a Golarion flavored atheist is the fact that regardless of what the atheist actually believes while alive on Golarion, he still ends up going to an afterlife that is associated with his alignment?
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For me, the main issue with Golarion is how tightly packed together the nations are. There isn't enough wilderness, uncharted land, for a DM to make their own stuff. Or for players to found their own kingdom. If you try to maintain verisimilitude.
I'm not a huge fan of the pantheon either. It's not bad, there are some dieties I like. But as a whole it doesn't thrill me. Someone else mentioned the lack of racial dieties. That has bugged me as well. The world is too human focused for a fantasy based game.
Oh and I want my steampunk gnomes back.
You realize you are describing Europe and the near Est during the late Medieval - Renaissance period?
Ultimately, the difference between an atheist in real life and an atheist in Golarion is that the fate of souls is a known, provable thing. In a world like Golarion, it would be a difficult thing to be an educated atheist the way one can be in the real world.
An atheist could say 'There is no greater intelligence directing the universe'. However, there are certainly entities known as gods, that control large portions of the universe and have a direct effect on mortal souls. Whether you call these beings 'Gods' or 'Powerful Extraplanar Entities' is largely academic.
This is really interesting to me, because it puts the atheist on Golarion in an unique position: being undeniably wrong (by definition of the word atheist). It leads me to believe that such an atheist would be a very rare individual indeed, for they would have to be choosing ignorance of the demonstrable and provable (sound familiar?), but in order to gain what? Their ignorance doesn't promise anything or gain them any beneficial comfort since for the most part, the afterlife and role of extra-planar beings are known quantities on Golarion.
This is sowing the seeds of many story ideas for me and possibly my own reasoning as to Aroden's death. Wonderful!
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Overly negative post for a negative topic.
-Numeria. I haven't met anyone who likes this nation. This gets the most eye-rolling from folks who don't know the Inner Sea in my experience. I've seen art that I thought was a joke, then seen it published in the books. It straight out doesn't work. No UFOs in my fantasy please.
-Osirion. Not enough has been done to differentiate this nation from Hollywood Egypt. It's a cookie cutter approach that shows a lack of forethought by the writers about what this nation is about, aside from a paintjob that justifies multiple tombs/dungeons to raid.
-Lack of integration of the classes. Where do some of the civilised classes go to learn their craft. Rogues and assassins are easy. What about wizard schools? Sorceror police? Summoners? Where do they get the Eidolons from? What nations are controlled by Druids? The writers did this for Irisen and it works wonderfully, even though they had to steal folklore in order to pull it off.
-Too many dull gods. Don't get me wrong. Some of the gods are marvellous. Torag, Calistria, Cayden Cailean, Rovagug are marvellous. Sarenrae would have been boring if it weren't for Taldor banning her. The Pantheon should be chaotic, fluid, swelling with complications, trysts and betrayals. Instead too many of the gods have a boring agenda and not much history with one another. Let's give these folks a history! The Faerunian gods were all over each other! It was great.
Having said that, there's many aspects of Golarion I love, but this isn't the thread for that. (I love Alkenstar)
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The Pantheon should be chaotic, fluid, swelling with complications, trysts and betrayals. Instead too many of the gods have a boring agenda and not much history with one another. Let's give these folks a history! The Faerunian gods were all over each other! It was great.
I do kinda wish the big 20 were more tied together, in the big incestuous (and occasionally totally contradictory) family way that the Greek, Egyptian and Norse pantheons were. Erastil not being married, for instance, is a head-scratcher. Big horned hypocrite, getting on everyone else for not marrying off when he's still going stag! Indeed, the only married god in the big 20 is Torag, and the only related gods in the big 20 are Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon.
Granted, that isn't uncommon for fantasy pantheons. The most common Greyhawk and Realms gods weren't related, despite Greyhawk having a 'god-family' with the Suel pantheon (plus the Heironeous/Hextor thing), and Roger Moore's elven and dwarven pantheons having some relations.
Even if it was a Greyhawk (Sueloise / Bakluni / Flan) or Norse (Aesir / Vanir) sort of thing, where the big 20 pantheon was mooshed together from two or three different min-families of gods, some more interconnections could be interesting.
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But we're totally opposite on the Alkenstar / Numeria thing. I love Numeria and don't really 'get' Alkenstar. :)
There have been a few things I don't care for in the RULES... but the setting hasn't bothered me TOO much.
Granted we're VERY new to it.
These are probably hollow complaints... but based on the APs WE'VE run so far,
1) Too much 'ancient civilizations'. Each of the APs we've dealt with deal with lost cities and cultures. Which would be fine... if they Meant anything to me. As new as i am to the world... I'd like to get a taste of the CURRENT world so I have something to compare the history to.
Again it may just be a coincident with the games we've played so far...
2) Elves.. Elves are my all time favorite race, and I really hate how they're portrayed here. Again, this isn't really dealing with absolutes... but between their favored deity of Calistra... and the ambassadors who are responsible for the entire half-elf community... The whole race seems to have gone from the grand and noble entities they were in 2E forgotton realms to a bunch of lecherous creatures interested in only in debauchery.
Again... the 'free love' concept was always a part of their culture... but it was such a SMALL part... Golarion REALLY shines a spotlight on it.
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Never say never.
As a publisher, you definitely don't want to make promises that have "always" or "never" in them. If, 25 years down the road, you have the perfect idea for a perfect product but that would mean revealing one of the secrets you swore to never reveal, you can either break that promise, or throw away said perfect product.
So you don't make promises that might bite you in the arse later.
Too true.
For example, did you know that Golarion's Plane of Air doesn't have any Cloud Dragons in it? Todd expressly ruled them out when he wrote the Elemental Air entry for The Great Beyond.
You've obviously never played Gothic Earth in "Masque of the Red Death". With proper setting rules, it's one of the best settings EVER.
I think modern-day Earth makes a pretty lousy D&D setting.
How often do you play in that setting, as a percentage of your games, would you say?
Nah, I blame the pedestrian. You've got La Princesse
Holy arachnophobia, Batman! Does this guy like to give people heart attacks or something?
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Followers of outsider lords aren't faithless.
And even otherwise it's not quite the Wall. LG souls go to heaven, CE souls to the abbyss.
An atheist on Golarion is quite different from an atheist in real life.
What book/source specifically discusses what happens to souls after death (Pharasma's duties, etc).
Also, you're saying the difference between an atheist in real life and a Golarion flavored atheist is the fact that regardless of what the atheist actually believes while alive on Golarion, he still ends up going to an afterlife that is associated with his alignment?
The main difference between an atheist on Golarion and an atheist in real life is that unlike in real life, the gods of Golarion and their powers are quite factual. In real life, faith is hugely debatable, as it actually relies on faith as in "I have no proof of a god's existence, I have to believe". On Golarion, a priest can do miracles. You can go and watch. With sufficient power, you can go and visit the afterlife. Or bring someone back from the dead - without his original body, and years after his death.
A Golarion atheist disbeliefs what is definitely there.
About a soul's destination: It goes like this: If you're a faithful worshipper of a deity, you go to that deity's divine realm. Sometimes, there are conflicting claims on a soul, so Pharasma and her servants will hold court.
Only if you don't have a specific patron deity will the generic rule apply. Those are mainly agnostics (who says they cannot know about the gods and their nature), pantheists and those who focus more on a philosophy.
-Numeria. I haven't met anyone who likes this nation.
I like Numeria.
It straight out doesn't work.Except it totally does.
-Osirion. Not enough has been done to differentiate this nation from Hollywood Egypt.
Yeah. Because it's supposed to be a lot like "Hollywood Egypt".
-Lack of integration of the classes. Where do some of the civilised classes go to learn their craft. Rogues and assassins are easy. What about wizard schools?
They're there. There are a number of very prestigious and famous wizard schools
Sorceror police?
The what?
Summoners? Where do they get the Eidolons from?
Summoners are from the APG. The classes from the book aren't supposed to be all over.
And summoners don't seem like a very organised lot.
As for where they get their eidolons from: Wherever you want them from. Some will bargain with Hell (or other planes), some will find old texts, some will just know what to do.
Enforcing a single way of getting an eidolon limits the options for this class, and classes should be as versatile as possible, not as restricted.
What nations are controlled by Druids?
Druids? None (or very, very few) because druids aren't usually interested in nations.
-Too many dull gods. Don't get me wrong. Some of the gods are marvellous. Torag
Wait, you complain about dull gods, and your list of exciting gods starts with Torag? God of annoying dwarf stereotypes? He's basically every other dwarf god out there.
I do kinda wish the big 20 were more tied together, in the big incestuous (and occasionally totally contradictory) family way that the Greek, Egyptian and Norse pantheons were.
But they're not a pantheon. Because they're not Greek, or Egyptian, or Norse. They're not the Taldan, or Osirian, or Land of the Linnorm Kings gods, either.
The gods come from all over and merely became popular in most parts of the world (or at least the Inner Sea Region). They're the most popular gods from many different races and cultures, not all the gods from one culture. That's why there aren't that many ties.
Actually, I like it that way. Pantheons are so overdone.
Erastil not being married, for instance, is a head-scratcher. Big horned hypocrite, getting on everyone else for not marrying off when he's still going stag!
Have you looked at his head? ;-P
Plus, gods and marriage is a weird topic.
The whole race seems to have gone from the grand and noble entities they were in 2E forgotton realms to a bunch of lecherous creatures interested in only in debauchery.
What do you mean, only? They have many other ideas, and concepts. They just don't conflate love and lust. Like many humans do, or want to do, but the elves not only manage to do so, they're also honest about it.
Ok, I finally thought of something.
When I first got into Pathfinder I was a little bit annoyed with the Red Mantis. I liked Achaekek the mantis-god, but the write-up in the 3.5 edition setting guide made the organization itself sound like a pack of kewler-than-thou Mary Sue lesbian stripper ninjas. And the idea that Red Mantis assassins had snuck into every library in the world and erased "Mediogalti" from all the maps so that now no one could find them struck me (and still strikes me) as possibly the dumbest thing I had ever heard. Particularly when it was later revealed that Mediogalti boasts a thriving pirate town where everyone is perfectly aware that the Red Mantis live there too.
However, more recent publications seem to have toned this down somewhat, and I am now quite satisfied. In particular, the Inner Sea World Guide write-up paints the Red Mantis headquarters with more of a Masyaf/Old Man of the Mountain vibe, which I really like. And it doesn't mention the map-erasing baloney at all, which I really extra like.
So now I'm pretty much all good.
When I first got into Pathfinder I was a little bit annoyed with the Red Mantis. I liked Achaekek the mantis-god, but the write-up in the 3.5 edition setting guide made the organization itself sound like a pack of kewler-than-thou Mary Sue lesbian stripper ninjas. And the idea that Red Mantis assassins had snuck into every library in the world and erased "Mediogalti" from all the maps so that now no one could find them struck me (and still strikes me) as possibly the dumbest thing I had ever heard. Particularly when it was later revealed that Mediogalti boasts a thriving pirate town where everyone is perfectly aware that the Red Mantis live there too.
However, more recent publications seem to have toned this down somewhat, and I am now quite satisfied. In particular, the Inner Sea World Guide write-up paints the Red Mantis headquarters with more of a Masyaf/Old Man of the Mountain vibe, which I really like. And it doesn't mention the map-erasing baloney at all, which I really extra like.
So now I'm pretty much all good.
Except... the masks...
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And the idea that Red Mantis assassins had snuck into every library in the world and erased "Mediogalti" from all the maps so that now no one could find them struck me (and still strikes me) as possibly the dumbest thing I had ever heard.
Hey, it worked perfectly, in 'Attack of the Clones', though, right?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The main difference between an atheist on Golarion and an atheist in real life is that unlike in real life, the gods of Golarion and their powers are quite factual. In real life, faith is hugely debatable, as it actually relies on faith as in "I have no proof of a god's existence, I have to believe". On Golarion, a priest can do miracles. You can go and watch. With sufficient power, you can go and visit the afterlife. Or bring someone back from the dead - without his original body, and years after his death.A Golarion atheist disbeliefs what is definitely there.
About a soul's destination: It goes like this: If you're a faithful worshipper of a deity, you go to that deity's divine realm. Sometimes, there are conflicting claims on a soul, so Pharasma and her servants will hold court.
Only if you don't have a specific patron deity will the generic rule apply. Those are mainly agnostics (who says they cannot know about the gods and their nature), pantheists and those who focus more on a philosophy.
I'd put one qualification about the 'what is definitely there' part.
I'm an incredibly powerful being, effectively immortal, able to warp reality at my whim. I have people who follow me and who I can grant powers to a select few.
Am I a god? No I'm an Elan Psion/Thrallherd.
An Athiest could easily accept Cayden as a powerful being, but not accept that he's 'divine'.
I think Ba'al said it along the lines of "But isn't being a god just a matter of publicity?"
I'd put one qualification about the 'what is definitely there' part.
I'm an incredibly powerful being, effectively immortal, able to warp reality at my whim. I have people who follow me and who I can grant powers to a select few.
Am I a god? No I'm an Elan Psion/Thrallherd.
An Athiest could easily accept Cayden as a powerful being, but not accept that he's 'divine'.
I think Ba'al said it along the lines of "But isn't being a god just a matter of publicity?"
Not actually in Golarion. Gods are totally gods - and that's not just publicity... they really are, objectively divine and thus inherently worthy of worship.
Also, none of Elans, Psions, or Thrallherds officially exist in Golarion. :P ;D
That said, I wholly agree that anyone can rationalize anything they wish. They might be complete fools for doing so, but they can still be very intelligent and convincing both for themselves and others. I posted somewhere else a long thing about how, precisely, people can rationalize divinity away... and still be completely wrong. Not insane, just wrong. The gods are there, they give complete and total proof that they're there, and anyone who rationalizes it away are simply fooling themselves.
An Athiest could easily accept Cayden as a powerful being, but not accept that he's 'divine'.I think Ba'al said it along the lines of "But isn't being a god just a matter of publicity?"
In the end, I don't think the definition of atheist as we know it really applies to anyone on Golarion. Since the divine is knowable and miracles and direct effects of one's faith can be seen each and every day, someone denying those beings is more along the lines of mentally disturbed - since they are denying the provable and knowable.
And since faith doesn't really make the gods stronger on Golarion, religions are merely clubs with member benefits. Throw in some Berkeleian idealism in the form of a group of people that start believing in a god that doesn't even exist but suddenly start receiving access to spells and you have the idea for my next campaign! ;)
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You know what I don't like about Golarion? Yes, this is my usual default rant.
I don't like the 15-foot-long swords. And the "it's a giant's sword!"
and "Vital Strike is awesome because it makes super-giant weapons more giantly awesome!" And all the swords and axes in the artwork are always cracked and look like theiy were carved out of stone to begin with, with blades that are like three inches thick and two feet wide. And don't get me started on the initial earthbreaker depiction in the AP, with the hammer head that's much, much bigger than the guy wielding the weapon.
I want to organize a field trip to a museum to look at actual swords and warhammers. All of the game designers and artists would be required to attend.
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Just once, I'd like one of the artists to actually walk into a museum and look at a real sword.
Is that all the artists, though? It seems like mostly WAR's design choice, and not everyone's.
It's Seoni's cankles I can't forgive. That, or how she only gets decent ankles and some kind of skin-bleaching job at the same time.