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I realize this has come up before, but there seems to be no consensus or official ruling on the matter. I was thinking of building a character around this concept, so I need a decisive answer. Could someone from the developers please speak an executive word?
My planned character is a Vivisectionist with the Feral Mutagen discovery, who uses his claws to sneak attack. At later level, he would greatly benefit from having silver and cold iron knuckles available to modify his damage type while still using his Amulet of Mighty Fists.
The questions, specifically, are:
- Brass knuckles are tabulated as Unarmed Attacks rather than Light Melee Weapons in APG Table 4-1. Furthermore, their description says, "They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks." These wordings imply that brass knuckles are not considered a weapon attack, but an unarmed attack. Does that mean a creature benefits from an Amulet of Mighty Fists when using brass knuckles?
- Does the enhancement bonus of a masterwork silver knuckle stack with the effect of a Shock Amulet of Mighty Fists? (Clearly it wouldn't stack with another enhancement bonus, but this is different.)
- What happens if a character puts on an Amulet of Mighty Fists when he is already wearing one? Does the old or the new one work? For instance, could my Vivisectionist wear a Merciful Amulet to make use of the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats with his claws and bite, and quickly put on a Shock Amulet when facing undead, constructs, or oozes?
The brass knuckles recently re-changed and now they are listed as light weapons and no longer get the monk's unarmed damage.
They've changed brass knuckles with the new update to the Adventurer's Armory to being light melee weapons to try and get rid of some of the confusion.
So for questions 1 & 2, no you wouldn't gain any benefit from an Amulet of Mighty Fists while attacking with brass knuckles.
For question 3, only 1 item can be worn per body slot. Any item worn beyond this amount has no effect, so the second amulet worn would have no effect until the first one was removed.
question 3, as Sniggevert said, the first one worn takes affect:
"However, additional items beyond those in the slots listed above have no effect."
It's not 100% clear, but pretty much.
On the other hand this is for "a humanoid-shaped body", I wonder if you can wear 3 rings with vestigal arm, for your necklace, ask your GM for a vestigal neck, if you do please take a picture of his face and post it.
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Oh, is my APG outdated? That's disappointing. :( Thanks for the quick replies.
So is there no convenient way to give the silver, cold iron, or adamantine qualities to unarmed attacks?
I guess my Vivisectionist should forget about Improved Unarmed Strike, then. He could just have a Merciful Amulet and go for a +0/+0/+0 claw/claw/bite routine with Sap Adept and Sap Master where applicable, and use weapons with 2WF for -2/-2/-7/-7/-7 (weapon x 4/bite) otherwise. The weapons would at least have a +1 to hit on top of that for being masterwork.
Sap Adept makes sneak attacks 1.6 times as powerful, so the lesser number of attacks should be compensated (and with a higher probability to hit, on top of that). And if I get Sap Master off, I do 2.6 times the normal sneak attack damage. If I win initiative while under Greater Invisibility, that's gotta be an instant kill.
Amulet of Mighty Fist +3 for Cold Iron and Silver. Damage Reduction (by weapon Plus) PRD
Eldritch Claws For Silver and Magical
Oh, is my APG outdated? That's disappointing. :( Thanks for the quick replies.
Errata for the first printing of the Adventurer's Armory is available as a free download (3.4 MB zip/PDF).
Updated Thursday, July 21, 2011The Advanced Players Guide Update 1.0 is dated 12/01/10, but mentions nothing that alters brass knuckles as printed.
By Most Recent Printing, the AA errata would be correct, but even that didn't remove the wording that Monks use their unarmed damage with them. That was a specific post by Sean Reynolds.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/brass -knuckles
The writeup with the current Update 2.0 changes is there, along with the link to Sean's post.
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Thanks for the links, Jaatu and David. David, I think a +3 enhancement bonus is pretty much unaffordable on an Amulet of Mighty Fists... :(
It looks like brass knuckles are out of the picture, but what about gauntlets instead?
The PFSRD explicitly states:
Benefit: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Sounds perfect!
The gauntlets are also the only weapon listed among the "unarmed strike" category in the master list of weapons, along with the unarmed strike itself. Looks like that would work out for my Vivisectionist!
Is there another errata on gauntlets that I don't know about? At least there's no indication in the PFSRD...
Thanks for the links, Jaatu and David. David, I think a +3 enhancement bonus is pretty much unaffordable on an Amulet of Mighty Fists... :(
It looks like brass knuckles are out of the picture, but what about gauntlets instead?
The PFSRD explicitly states:
Benefit: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.Sounds perfect!
The gauntlets are also the only weapon listed among the "unarmed strike" category in the master list of weapons, along with the unarmed strike itself. Looks like that would work out for my Vivisectionist!
Is there another errata on gauntlets that I don't know about? At least there's no indication in the PFSRD...
No, that should work. It'd be a d3+amulet for damage on the hands, and you couldn't use the claw attacks while you were using (I'd rule wearing) them.
Not sure what the gain would be over using claw/claw/bite IMO. You'd need the improved unarmed strike feat to not provoke an AoO while using the gauntlets to attack too...
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No, that should work. It'd be a d3+amulet for damage on the hands, and you couldn't use the claw attacks while you were using (I'd rule wearing) them.
I wouldn't mind. The damage would come from the sneak attack greatly boosted by the sap feats.
Not sure what the gain would be over using claw/claw/bite IMO.
More attacks per round, easy access to silver/cold iron/adamantine, cheap bonus to hit (masterwork gauntlets), compatibility with Amulet of Mighty Fists and sap feats.
You'd need the improved unarmed strike feat to not provoke an AoO while using the gauntlets to attack too...
Yes. That would further allow me to use the sap feats and my Amulet out of mutation.
yeah if you are wearing gauntlets over your claw hands or attacking with gauntlets, you wouldn't be able to make claw attacks from those limbs.
While I agree that you could not make claw attacks while attacking with the gauntlets, I don't think there is any such limit from simply wearing the gauntlets. Gauntlets occupy the glove/gauntlet body slot, and come standard with medium and heavy armor types. If a guy in platemail can swing a sword, he can swing a claw.
Ugh. Very sad to see monks lose their unarmed damage when using brass knuckles. I thought brass knuckles was one of the best things for the monk class, and fixed what I considered a hole in the core rules. Oh well, I don't think anyone thinks things are figured out yet for monks and "armed-unarmed" attacks, so there is still some hope...
They've changed brass knuckles with the new update to the Adventurer's Armory to being light melee weapons to try and get rid of some of the confusion.
Where is this change listed? It still reads the same in the Advanced Players Guide of the PRD.
There's nothing in the rules that says a gauntleted creature can't use its claws. A creature with claws would likely seek out gauntlets that were DESIGNED to allow use of his claws in any case, the same way a halfling would get a small set of gauntlets, or a giant a large set.
On the other hand this is for "a humanoid-shaped body", I wonder if you can wear 3 rings with vestigal arm, for your necklace, ask your GM for a vestigal neck, if you do please take a picture of his face and post it.
Hah, is that your face or is your ne...
your neck actually IS blowing a bubble...
On the other hand this is for "a humanoid-shaped body", I wonder if you can wear 3 rings with vestigal arm, for your necklace, ask your GM for a vestigal neck, if you do please take a picture of his face and post it.
No, even with Vestigal Arm you are limited to 2 rings and hand items.
From the description of Vestigal Arm in Ultimate Magic:
"The arm has its own "hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
They've changed brass knuckles with the new update to the Adventurer's Armory to being light melee weapons to try and get rid of some of the confusion.Where is this change listed? It still reads the same in the Advanced Players Guide of the PRD.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory (PFRPG)
Errata for AAWithin the errata are the changes you are looking for. Hopefully the PRD will be updated soon.
They've changed brass knuckles with the new update to the Adventurer's Armory to being light melee weapons to try and get rid of some of the confusion.Where is this change listed? It still reads the same in the Advanced Players Guide of the PRD.Pathfinder Player Companion: Adventurer's Armory (PFRPG)
Errata for AA
Within the errata are the changes you are looking for. Hopefully the PRD will be updated soon.
PRD will be updated when an errata is made for APG and an errata for the APG will be made when APG goes for another printing.
I just noticed the sap feats require that you "use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal damage". Does an unarmed strike or a natural weapon under the influence of a Merciful Amulet of Mighty Fists count as a "weapon" in this context?
A gauntlet does not provoke when used to attack. No attack that does Lethal damage provokes when used to attack. It is the change from non-lethal to lethal that removes the AoO for Improved Unarmed Strike.
To increase the damage you do with gauntlets, you'd have to enchant the gauntlets...they do damage as IUS, but that doesn't make them IUS, so Mighty Fists will have no effect on gauntlet strikes.
===Aelryinth
A gauntlet does not provoke when used to attack. No attack that does Lethal damage provokes when used to attack. It is the change from non-lethal to lethal that removes the AoO for Improved Unarmed Strike.
That would be convenient. Reference?
Also, why would anyone bother with Improved Unarmed Strike then?
To increase the damage you do with gauntlets, you'd have to enchant the gauntlets...they do damage as IUS, but that doesn't make them IUS, so Mighty Fists will have no effect on gauntlet strikes.
Nope. To quote the PFSRD: "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."
So there. It is an unarmed attack.
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It is not the non-lethal portion that makes the attack provoke. It is the "unarmed" portion. A better general rule is that weapons you don't threaten with provoke when used (whip, unarmed strike, gauntlet, bow, crossbow, etc). The obvious exception being thrown weapons, which still provoke when thrown, but you don't threaten with them *as* a thrown weapon (you'd use the AoO to stab, not throw).