So here's the deal, I'm considering that playing a paladin would be an interesting and fun experience. The thing is that I don't understand why the class itself has so many restrictive role playing mechanics in itself. However I might just press ahead and just go with it. Now my question is, how do I play a paladin that isn't a moron that runs trying to save various people that need help. Also how do I avoid some codes contradicting each other. Is there any alternative to the paladin class that gives different codes? Perhaps for a chaotic good paladin? Thanks for everything you guys have been helping me narrow my decision down quite a lot for my up and coming pathfinder game.
So here's the deal, I'm considering that playing a paladin would be an interesting and fun experience. The thing is that I don't understand why the class itself has so many restrictive role playing mechanics in itself. However I might just press ahead and just go with it. Now my question is, how do I play a paladin that isn't a moron that runs trying to save various people that need help. Also how do I avoid some codes contradicting each other. Is there any alternative to the paladin class that gives different codes? Perhaps for a chaotic good paladin? Thanks for everything you guys have been helping me narrow my decision down quite a lot for my up and coming pathfinder game.
Talk to your GM. Seriously, ask him what he thinks about the code and how it should be followed in regards to your character. In the end it will be his opinion, not the opinion of complete strangers on an internet forum that will determine what lawful stupid is.
And keep in mind which god or goddess you'll be following as a paladin, some GMs will have the code be slightly different for each god, based on their beliefs and credos.
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So far in Pathfinder there is no alternate paladin codes for various alignments. If 3.5 material is allowed there was an alternate in either Unearthed Arcana or Players Handbook 2. Can't remember which it's in.
As far as not running in to save every poor little waif that bats her eyelashes at you that's not something that can easily be solved without a sit down with your DM. Every time I've talked to someone about paladins being lawful stupid or stick-in-the-mud it leads back to the same thing. GM's being overly controlling and holding that Sword of Damocles over paladins heads a little too hard. I recommend having a talk with your GM and stating your desire to play a paladin, and that so long as you act 90% lawful good he'll let the 10% slide.
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Just remember that a paladin sees the world in black/white terms there are no shades of grey. They detect evil evil must be overcome good will triumph in the end, the problem comes down to if the DM wants that kind of story.
Think of it this way a paladin is Superman, sure he can team up with the JLA and get things done but he is always Superman first. In the end of the comic he wins and he wins because he stayed to his code of conduct and that is the story the writer wanted to tell.
If the DM wants to tell a story about grey moral areas and there is no good choice just a selection of varying bad choices then he is telling a Batman story and you shouldn't be playing Superman in that game.
It takes two people to make good paladin stories the player and the DM. So yeah ask him what he wants out of a story with a paladin in it.
So far in Pathfinder there is no alternate paladin codes for various alignments. If 3.5 material is allowed there was an alternate in either Unearthed Arcana or Players Handbook 2. Can't remember which it's in.
If that's in response to my post, I didn't say of different alignments of Paladin. I said of different gods, who each have different credos and beliefs. A LG god of justice is going to have a different outlook than a NG god of healing, for example. Some GMs do tweak the requirements of the Paladin's based on the god they worship.
It is pretty much up the GM like Tark said. Some will insist you be a idiot who can't get anything done, others will let you do anything short of slaughter babies for fun. Most are okay with something in the middle but just make sure you and your GM are at least close to the same page.
Also if he has anything REALLY odd/strict check with the party, you don't have a right to drag the game down.
A lawful good Oracle who feels he has to live up to YOUR views of what a strict code might be more your style from what you have said. You're still held to a strict code but the runner doesn't have to punish you for what he feels are mistakes, you just have to live up to your idea of it. And if the character does something he feels bad about he can deal with it later BUT keeps his powers so he isn't useless till then.
I've had some extremely interesting and well-played paladin characters in games I've run.
One stuck to his own morals, but took a non-douchebag approach to the actions of the party. If they were about to do something that would be against his morals, he'd point it out in a calm, logical manner. If the party member in question did it anyways, he'd just shake his head. But if they stopped, he would smile and bless them.
Another took a very loose view on the code. He follows the core tenets of the church, and his agenda is one driven by faith. But he realizes that sometimes the rules must be bent, and he isn't afraid to do it. He actually has a stash of gold set aside for the inevitable Atonement spell, but so far he hasn't broken any rules quite far enough for me to strip his powers.
So really, it's not the alignment/code that's usually the problem with paladins, it's the player/character trying to force them down the throat of everybody else. As long as the party isn't doing anything blatantly evil, don't be a jerk about it.
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If that's in response to my post, I didn't say of different alignments of Paladin. I said of different gods, who each have different credos and beliefs. A LG god of justice is going to have a different outlook than a NG god of healing, for example. Some GMs do tweak the requirements of the Paladin's based on the god they worship.
Naw MDT, it was a reply to the OP. I do agree with you on the different codes of dieties though.
If that's in response to my post, I didn't say of different alignments of Paladin. I said of different gods, who each have different credos and beliefs. A LG god of justice is going to have a different outlook than a NG god of healing, for example. Some GMs do tweak the requirements of the Paladin's based on the god they worship.Naw MDT, it was a reply to the OP. I do agree with you on the different codes of dieties though.
Ah, all cool then. :)
As others have said it’s largely up to how the GM runs things. If they insist you act like an idiot there is little you can do about it and I’d avoid the class like the plague. On the other hand, if you like your GM and believe they wouldn’t require you to be an idiot but rather follow the beliefs intelligently I’ll give you the same advice I give my players. Read The Elenium by David Eddings. The main character is essentially a paladin and so are several other characters in the book, yet they all act intelligently and have their own personalities making the trilogy a great resource for how to play a lawful good character and not a lawful stupid one.
How do you confront issues when it comes to lying to an evil individual?
How do you confront issues when it comes to lying to an evil individual?
Smite evil!
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I actually just posted a piece that drills down into the facets of the alignment just a bit. You might check that out, but I won't bore everyone by repeating it here.
The advice for checking with the GM is sound. Many here, as an example, have openly stated that they screw with paladins for entertainment. Best to check first.
As for others who follow codes, what about a Cavalier?
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How do you confront issues when it comes to lying to an evil individual?
Charge the tower with weapons sheathed yelling "DEMONS! There are DEMONS in the forest! Let us in!"
"Thank you kindly for opening the door, now if you would all please surrender to the king's authority, we can get home by supper!"Misleading evil without outright lying has always been acceptable in my eyes, as it was for the DM running that particular adventure. We HAD fought demons in the forest prior to the deception, and we knew there were more about. We did want to be let in to the tower, but that was so we could subdue the brigands currently occupying it. Not the paladin's fault they mistook a group of undisguised PCs for a part of their bandit gang. . .
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The first thing you do is collaborate with your GM and write your OWN Code. Once you've got that hammered out you'll have guidelines to fall back on if your gut instinct fails you.
Just remember, Paladins are the good guy, the guys with the white hats on. You always try to do your best. When people fail to do the honorable thing it's your job to pick up the pieces or clean up the mess. Keep your nose clean, fight the good fight, and remember most PC's and NPC's just can't live up to the ideals you do everyday. Don't pity them, try to provide a shining example for them to look up to.
Oh and even Superman can play in a Batman game. He lets Batman, be Batman (i.e. your sneaky rogue). Just be sure you let Batman know not to pull shenanigans right under your nose. Plausible deniability goes a long way.
--Can you smell what the Vrock is cooking?
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I actually am one of those obnoxious GMs who requires Paladins play what some might call "Lawful Stupid."
In my games, Paladins cannot lie, even to evil characters. They cannot cheat, even against those who are cheating against them. (Actually, depending on the nature of the deity they serve, I might also rule no games of chance.) They HAVE to stay true to their word, even to evil characters. They cannot renege on an arrangement, even to . . . well, I'm sure you get the theme.
But beyond that, Paladins are required of even more depending on the deity they follow. It's very similar to the oaths system, in that each deity might require something extra of the Paladin. Shelyn, for example, might expect her Paladins to create beauty (i.e., plant gardens, donate to the arts, etc.), while Saranrae might require he give any human/non-inherently evil creature a chance to repent before landing a killing blow. (Within reason, of course.)
The reason for this is because, while a Cleric is the representative of her deity on Golarion, the Paladin is a mortal conduit of that deity. A Cleric can call upon spells or positive energy (while a Paladin can, too) but in both the flavor text and the mechanics of ongoing abilities, it is strongly applied that the Paladin is somehow "chosen" to be the instrument of her deity. To compare it to something in our own world, I'd say Paladins are the saints of the game.
That being said, I firmly believe there is always a GOOD way to do something. I make room in the APs, and in my own campaign I always leave it open for a character playing a Paladin to find ways to accomplish their goal without sacrificing their character. They're never EASY, but then being isn't supposed to be easy; otherwise evil wouldn't be so damn tempting.
In the case you play in Golarion i suggest buying faiths of purity or faiths of balance in case you want a paladin of Abadar (the .pdf are very cheap), in there you will see how paladins differ very much depending on the deity.
For example Torag's paladins are very different than shelyn's paladins.
Let's see two of the oaths Torag's paladins take:
I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright,
but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is
necessary to serve them, including misleading others.
Emphasis mine.
Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will
not allow their surrender, except to extract information.
I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families. Yet
even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in a
way that brings honor to Torag.
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Just remember that a paladin sees the world in black/white terms there are no shades of grey.
Actually, I would disagree very strongly with this.
Why can't a paladin see in shades of grey? Seeing the world in shades of grey does not stop a paladin striving to do good. It does not prevent a paladin detecting and acting against evil. It does not in fact conflict with any part of the paladin's code at all. It does allow a paladin to act appropriately to a situation, and helps stop them being an intransigent a$$.
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Acting with honour isn't difficult, and how you interpret lying and cheating depends on the paladin's code in question. To some paladins, deception is not the same as lying, to others it is; hence some may be happy to adopt a disguise, others will refuse to even hide their coat of arms. Cheating is easier, because cheating is only invoked when there is a set of rules to govern conduct - last time I checked, there was no rule-book for defending oneself against someone who attacks you with intent to kill.
There's a lot of scope within the paladin's code to let you make the kind of paladin that you want to play. Any kind of good-hearted, socially conscious person willing to take arms can be a paladin - they do not have to be a knight, they do not have to be self-righteous, they do not have to be intelligent or stupid, wise or foolish, or any other stereotype. They just have to believe in the greater good and be willing to put their life on the line for it. THAT'S a paladin.
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Now my question is, how do I play a paladin that isn't a moron that runs trying to save various people that need help.
Easy. Prioritise. I have had my Paladin refuse to help others before - reluctantly of course and it pained him to do so, I also of course told those in need that once I was done with my quest I would return to help them.
Fact is, a village being harrassed by bandits is tragic, it is something I would want to stop (as I would even if not a Paladin) however, my current quest involves hunting down a sinister geezer intent on destroying the world and he is dangerously close to succeeding. The Paladin has to make tough decisions like anyone else - saving the village and causing the world to be destroyed is an epic fail.The Paladin is not a fool, he may have ideals to live up to, but he ca still think and make the tough decisions.
As a Paladin, you are an exemplar of fair play and following the rules of society. You also can believe in redemption. With an evil or larcenous party member, you can simply try to convert him. Have philosophical discussions with them. Lead through example without feeling compelled to eradicate evil at every turn. Additionally, you must also realize that not everyone and everything can be saved immediately. The city may be burning, but if that evil wizard finishes his plan, even more will be in danger. When Evil McBadguy is defeated, come back and help them then.
That said, Lawful Stupid characters can be compelling from a RP angle. Look at the character of Javert in Les Miserables. He sees the world in black and white, and does not believe in redemption, and the simple act of being spared by a criminal sends his world into a tailspin. It makes him the most compelling character in the novel, in my opinion.
As a side note, my experiences as DM has led me to fear what I call Chaotic Hero alignment. You know, "I'm good, because I'm doing the quest, but I will lie, cheat, intimidate, steal, murder, and do anything short of rape and pillage and it's fine, if it gets me closer to my goal."
As a side note, my experiences as DM has led me to fear what I call Chaotic Hero alignment. You know, "I'm good, because I'm doing the quest, but I will lie, cheat, intimidate, steal, murder, and do anything short of rape and pillage and it's fine, if it gets me closer to my goal."
That's the Elric syndrome. (ok i am not sure if Elric was CG but still...)
That's the Elric syndrome. (ok i am not sure if Elric was CG but still...)
As a side note, my experiences as DM has led me to fear what I call Chaotic Hero alignment. You know, "I'm good, because I'm doing the quest, but I will lie, cheat, intimidate, steal, murder, and do anything short of rape and pillage and it's fine, if it gets me closer to my goal."
Actually that's Conan.
Elric never wanted nor claimed to be a good guy.
The reason for this is because, while a Cleric is the representative of her deity on Golarion, the Paladin is a mortal conduit of that deity. A Cleric can call upon spells or positive energy (while a Paladin can, too) but in both the flavor text and the mechanics of ongoing abilities, it is strongly applied that the Paladin is somehow "chosen" to be the instrument of her deity. To compare it to something in our own world, I'd say Paladins are the saints of the game.
While I have no issues with how you run your games (it's your game not mine) I do take some issues with this.
First, not every god wants a militant arm for its church, which a paladin with his full Bab and martial weapon proficiences, and smiting, and etc. etc. is.
Second, when you sit down to think about it clerics are actually more in tune with their gods then paladins ever can be. They take on the mantle of their gods (by taking domains) and channel the planes themselves through their form. On top of this their god grants them immense power on the mortal planes. A paladin will always be a paladin until the day she becomes a god or the right hand of that god. But a cleric can become a god through sheer faith. By 7th level spells they're quite literally building worlds adn causing the seven plagues of egypt all before lunch. Whom do you think qualifies more for the title of saint?
That being said it always bothers me how people are willing to give paladins crap about their code while the cleric can do whatever they damn well please and count it as an act of faith. If you're going to be hard on paladins you ahve to be hard on clerics adn druids as well. I think only inquisitors can have a longer leash if only because being unconventional is precisely what they're about.
That's the Elric syndrome. (ok i am not sure if Elric was CG but still...)
As a side note, my experiences as DM has led me to fear what I call Chaotic Hero alignment. You know, "I'm good, because I'm doing the quest, but I will lie, cheat, intimidate, steal, murder, and do anything short of rape and pillage and it's fine, if it gets me closer to my goal."
Actually that's Conan.
Elric never wanted nor claimed to be a good guy.
I guess you are right, i have very little experience with Conan.
Elric was for most of his career Chaotic Evil like his countrymen. He gradually moved to Chaotic Neutral with some leanings towards good, but I don't think he ever became good, at least not in that incarnation. There are other incarnations like Hawkmoon which are arguable good, essentially Neutral with Good tendencies.That's the Elric syndrome. (ok i am not sure if Elric was CG but still...)
As a side note, my experiences as DM has led me to fear what I call Chaotic Hero alignment. You know, "I'm good, because I'm doing the quest, but I will lie, cheat, intimidate, steal, murder, and do anything short of rape and pillage and it's fine, if it gets me closer to my goal."
That's what i also think, CE and CN depending on the book (or even chapter).
I think that Hawkmoon is between LN and LG (i don't think that going against a legit CE tyrant makes you chaotic or unlawful), now that i think about it only Corum strikes me as LG.
I've had some extremely interesting and well-played paladin characters in games I've run.
One stuck to his own morals, but took a non-douchebag approach to the actions of the party. If they were about to do something that would be against his morals, he'd point it out in a calm, logical manner. If the party member in question did it anyways, he'd just shake his head. But if they stopped, he would smile and bless them.
Another took a very loose view on the code. He follows the core tenets of the church, and his agenda is one driven by faith. But he realizes that sometimes the rules must be bent, and he isn't afraid to do it. He actually has a stash of gold set aside for the inevitable Atonement spell, but so far he hasn't broken any rules quite far enough for me to strip his powers.
So really, it's not the alignment/code that's usually the problem with paladins, it's the player/character trying to force them down the throat of everybody else. As long as the party isn't doing anything blatantly evil, don't be a jerk about it.
I play my paladin like your first way. The important thing to remember is that the paladin code is for PALADINS, not for the PARTY. I explain to other players that they will never see my paladin proselytize at them or judge their actions until they do something seriously evil. I explain that the paladin code is my burden, not theirs. Also, like someone else said, it's important to talk to your GM about what is included with his paladin code. My paladins will drink, sing, and have a good time just like everyone else because that's not part of his code. But some people see paladins has teatotalling celibates. Neither of us are wrong.
They key to not playing lawful stupid is not to play to the extreme. Think of our society. Most of society is lawful. We all follow the law but sometime we bend the law or out right break it, it's just not the norm though. Bending or breaking the law can be done for good or evil. Speeding to get an injured person to the hospital for instance is breaking traffic laws for good intentions. Break the law to create ponzi scheme is for evil intentions. Then there is bending or using the law for good and evil as well.
A Paladin doesn't have to follow the law 100% but when he does break the law his intentions need to honorable and according to his code. Basically for the greater good. Like the example of not lying. Don't look at it as lying is bad but look at the intent behind the lie. A lie to spare someone harm is not wrong but lie to deceive for personal gain would be.
So a Paladin look at you intent and measure that intent with the laws of the land and how the greater good is served. Like breaking the law to save 1 person while breaking that law endangers 100 of others could be wrong.
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Step 1: Read The Dresden Files. Pay special attention to Michael Carpenter.
Step 2: If in a situation on determining how you should act, ask yourself, "What would a Knight of the Cross do?"
Step 3: PROFIT.
Seriously, that character is my favorite, shining example of how a paladin should act :)
But discussing it with your DM is probably the least time intensive, most surefire, way to go.
I suspect that RAW Paladins pretty much must be stupid. It's a lot easier to avoid willfully committing evil acts if you have 8 int than if you're smart enough to understand the consequences of your actions.
Taking the honorable path when doing so may result in the triumph of evil is fine if you're stupid, but if you're smart it's the sort of thing that knocks you from lawful good to lawful neutral, and you can't remain a paladin if you're lawful neutral.
I'd basically ignore the honor code under many circumstances if I were to GM for a paladin. I consider honor to be reciprocal. Honorless enemies should not require honorable treatment, and given the alignment/diety system in Pathfinder I would say that to be worthy of honorable treatment by a lawful good character they must either be within one alignment step and an agnostic or within two alignment steps and a follower of a deity on friendly terms. So the honor terms of the code might apply to a paladin of Abadar interacting with a lawful follower of Asmodeus, but not to any follower of Zon-Kuthon, and a paladin of Iomedae wouldn't be bound by honor in associating with the followers of either.
I'm also pretty utilitarian when it comes to good. If you can't be confident in your ability to secure prisoners that could cause havoc if they escaped I'm more likely to consider failure to kill them an evil act than the other way around.
This is my issue; the paladin shouldn't generally need to compromise. If you're looking at a problem and the only options are Let Evil Prevail or Act Dishonorably and/or Stupidly, you've either not looked hard enough or your DM is a real jerk.
Thats not to say the Paladin's path is the easy path; its not. But thats kindof the point.
It's not so much that you need to have grey as you need to avoid having a runner who doesn't force every useful and smart thing into being black.
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In D&D / Pathfinder, you can be some stupid little first level Paladin and the GM can write up a 10th level chaotic evil rogue that tells him to murder a baby or he will murder two babies. There is no possible way a first level paladin can out maneuver a 10th level rogue, but the romantic idea of a paladin requires that he be able to.
This is where you quit the table, because the DM is being douche. To avoid this situation, don't play with douches.
In D&D / Pathfinder, you can be some stupid little first level Paladin and the GM can write up a 10th level chaotic evil rogue that tells him to murder a baby or he will murder two babies. There is no possible way a first level paladin can out maneuver a 10th level rogue, but the romantic idea of a paladin requires that he be able to.
I tend to think of many other images ebyond that you present. IT's the classical image but the ideal of the paladin goes beyond what you propose.
As to the quote I'm afraid I dont follow. Is the 10th level rogue being convincing? That doesn't and shouldn't work on players. Deceptive? That's tragic but not exactly a reason for a paladin to fall. Controlling? Well beyond the GM being a douche that's not a reason for the paladin to fall so much as seek retribution.
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Just a suggestion: Read Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics.
He talks about the Virtues of Man and what makes a good person good. Get that as your core defining trait, and you'll be all good to go.
Also consider reading Black Alice for the character Irish. He's a good example of a postmodern style Paladin, who doesn't lose sight of the "Goodness" in favor of "Lawfulness".
Both texts are available for free online via those links, by the way.
2) The Threat from the Sea (trilogy), by Mel Odom
Odom writes paladins better than any other gaming writer. His paladins are good, but not self-riteous, honorable, but not stuffy. The central character in this trilogy is a future paladin, and Odom examines his life philosophy, and how it applies to the world and the people around him. A good set of novels too.
REALLY!?!?!
I'm intrigued now... After reading 'Lost Library of Cormanthyr'... I pretty much wrote off Odom. THAT book SUCKED. I'm 80% certain that he wrote that book with a player's handbook and the Complete Rangers handbook open in front of him...
Felt more like a game module then an actual story.
as for playing effective Paladins.... I found THIS site a few years ago. It's an interesting read.
http://www.rdinn.com/guild/66/how_to_play_an_effective_paladin.html
Isn't theres a Lawful Evil paladin? O.o
Every time I've talked to someone about paladins being lawful stupid or stick-in-the-mud it leads back to the same thing. GM's being overly controlling and holding that Sword of Damocles over paladins heads a little too hard. I recommend having a talk with your GM and stating your desire to play a paladin, and that so long as you act 90% lawful good he'll let the 10% slide.
Hmm...I'd think as long as that particular pali's party is down with it there shouldn't be any problem. If another party member gets a Braxton Hix over maintaining harmony in the operation then they can kindly go hang. Assuming that since I myself can't detect alignments I can see this being a possible problem for me. So if someone tries to roll on me I do whats most expedient. I bash them upside the head, rub their faces in the ground, then I drop my drawers and rub my nuts on their faces. Thats what they get for their lack of cooperation! Thats the challenge of being a good representative of the paladin class. Make your kingdom proud! 8-|
Alternatively, this might be the time for [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html]thisIn D&D / Pathfinder, you can be some stupid little first level Paladin and the GM can write up a 10th level chaotic evil rogue that tells him to murder a baby or he will murder two babies. There is no possible way a first level paladin can out maneuver a 10th level rogue, but the romantic idea of a paladin requires that he be able to.This is where you quit the table, because the DM is being douche. To avoid this situation, don't play with douches.
. If the paladin knows he cannot best the rogue, what can he do about it? Of course, the Paladin can also instead tell the authorities about it, unless they are corrupt too. Then yeah, your GM is probably trying to screw you over...