Blah blah blah, you should pick what best fits your character concept, blah.
I get it, but I want to talk about the rules and mechanics here because I find it fun to muse about.
I'm staring at the Gnome and wondering what class build would he excel in that no other race could excel in.
Wizard isn't an optimal choice for the Gnome, because he doesn't get a bonus to INT and the Elf just rocks every other race in almost every case.
Sorcerer seemed like a good choice, until they gave Humans 20 more spells known with their Favored Class bonus. (Now I don't see any reason not to play Human for sorcerer from a mechanics standpoint.)
Bard would be good, if you're just going to cast. What are you going to do when you're not casting though? The three archetypes that Treantmonk suggests are all better optimized with some other race. And in most cases, a Bard can't just cast all the time without having some serious spells-per-day starvation.
Plus if you're going to just cast as a bard, the Human gets 20 more spells known with their favored class bonus....
Summoner looked like an optimal choice - but the Half-Elf gets 5 more evolution points by level 20.
I thought about maybe a dervish dancing Magus would be good, but the Halfling would be a better small race choice for that since they actually get a bonus to Dex.
Any of the martial classes are going to be pained by having a penalty to strength. Alchemists are INT based...
I'm thinking the Oracle is a good possibility - the Humans still have the advantage of more spells known, but that doesn't seem as important to me when it comes to Divine Magic. Now this could just be my limited experience with divine magic, so I wonder what you think about this...
Are there any builds for specific classes that would be best with the gnome?
And by that I mean actually mechanically effective? I know that you could make a fire bard by using the pyromaniac alternate race feature and the Fire music feat, but that's not exactly an optimal choice by any means.
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Heavens Oracle
Cross Blooded Draconic (red) & Orc sorcerer with Pyromaniac
Mounted Paladin
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Are you looking for "best class for gnomes" or "class gnomes are better at than any other race?"
The answer to question 2 is none.
Blah blah blah, you should pick what best fits your character concept, blah.
I get it, but I want to talk about the rules and mechanics here because I find it fun to muse about.
I'm staring at the Gnome and wondering what class build would he excel in that no other race could excel in.
Wizard isn't an optimal choice for the Gnome, because he doesn't get a bonus to INT and the Elf just rocks every other race in almost every case.
Sorcerer seemed like a good choice, until they gave Humans 20 more spells known with their Favored Class bonus. (Now I don't see any reason not to play Human for sorcerer from a mechanics standpoint.)
what do you mean by an extra +20 spells? with favored class bonus?
you get +1 hp or +skill I thought| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gnomes are the best Illusionist, hands down. Effortless Trickery and threatening illusion make this so.
The more spells as a human is nice, but scrolls can do that as well. The lack of interest boost is offset by the DC increase to illusion and con is the second best stat for casters.
Alternate racial favored class bonus.
And @Hudax, both questions are up for discussion.
Although question 2 is what I am most curious about.
Gnomes are the best Illusionist, hands down. Effortless Trickery and threatening illusion make this so.
The more spells as a human is nice, but scrolls can do that as well. The lack of interest boost is offset by the DC increase to illusion and con is the second best stat for casters.
Hmm an arcane sorcerer gnome with both the spell focus feats could be potent.
Not quite as potent when dealing with undead and oozes though.
I'd say summoners because of their size, but the same can be said for halflings for the same reasons.
Not quite as potent when dealing with undead and oozes though.
you can still attack them with Shadow spells. And of course any other spell, since even a gnome illusionist sorc will have plenty of spells of other schools.
From a power perspective, I'd add a single level of heavens oracle. You know which Revelation to pick.
Other than that, I'd agree with the coffee golem. Summoner is a great class for gnomes. If you miss the +5 Evo pool from half-elf, just go with the master summoner and use your Eidolon exclusively as mount and for utility.
I'd say summoners because of their size, but the same can be said for halflings for the same reasons.
I think gnomes are better than halflings since con is probably better for life link unless youre going archer with your summoner. The favored class bonus is probably better in most cases too.
But as mentioned, unless you're going master summoner, it's hard not to go for the half-elf's extra evolution points.
With their stats, gnomes are good at being a charisma-based caster of any kind. Obviously, either illusions or fire spells should be the main focus.
The master Tinkerer Trait can also come in handy. You can use it to get a free proficiency for any kind of weapon. May be useful if you want to add a bit archery to your oracle or sorc. Every other race would need to take a feat, multiclass or be an elf.
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I'd say summoners because of their size, but the same can be said for halflings for the same reasons.I think gnomes are better than halflings since con is probably better for life link unless youre going archer with your summoner. The favored class bonus is probably better in most cases too.
But as mentioned, unless you're going master summoner, it's hard not to go for the half-elf's extra evolution points.
True, but it's only 5 evolution points across 20 levels. WHich doesn't suck, but if you play a halfling/gnome you can have a wicked mount starting at first level which essentially negates the movement issues.
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Gnomes are excellent choices for sorcerers, oracles, and summoners. You can also trade out your Gnome Magic for Magical Lingust and become a huge Suggestion Bard.
Take Magical Linguist and Gift of Tongues, put your FC into extra performance, and focus on battlefield control and opponent charming. They make great standard bards, Court Bards, or Magicians.
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While lacking a racial intelligence bonus, gnomes make excellent alchemists. And with Ultimate Combat out, you can have some fun with firearms.
Master Tinker +Gunsmithing +Master Alchemist +Swift Alchemy means that you can make your own firearms and not need to spend a feat on proficiency, and you'll be able to churn out guns and explosives at a prodigious rate.
Add in Pyromaniac and the racial favored class bonus, and you'll make a lot of bombs.
Make yourself a rifle, take the Explosive Missile discovery on top of every other bomb-related discovery you can get, and you'll essentially be pint-sized artillery, shooting high explosive rocket launchers at touch AC.
Blah blah blah, you should pick what best fits your character concept, blah.
I get it, but I want to talk about the rules and mechanics here because I find it fun to muse about.
I'm staring at the Gnome and wondering what class build would he excel in that no other race could excel in.
Wizard isn't an optimal choice for the Gnome, because he doesn't get a bonus to INT and the Elf just rocks every other race in almost every case.
Sorcerer seemed like a good choice, until they gave Humans 20 more spells known with their Favored Class bonus. (Now I don't see any reason not to play Human for sorcerer from a mechanics standpoint.)
Bard would be good, if you're just going to cast. What are you going to do when you're not casting though? The three archetypes that Treantmonk suggests are all better optimized with some other race. And in most cases, a Bard can't just cast all the time without having some serious spells-per-day starvation.
Plus if you're going to just cast as a bard, the Human gets 20 more spells known with their favored class bonus....Summoner looked like an optimal choice - but the Half-Elf gets 5 more evolution points by level 20.
I thought about maybe a dervish dancing Magus would be good, but the Halfling would be a better small race choice for that since they actually get a bonus to Dex.
Any of the martial classes are going to be pained by having a penalty to strength. Alchemists are INT based...
I'm thinking the Oracle is a good possibility - the Humans still have the advantage of more spells known, but that doesn't seem as important to me when it comes to Divine Magic. Now this could just be my limited experience with divine magic, so I wonder what you think about this...
Are there any builds for specific classes that would be best with the gnome?
And by that I mean actually mechanically effective? I know that you could make a fire bard by using the pyromaniac alternate race feature and the Fire music feat, but that's not exactly an optimal...
Gnome Oracle of Lore: sidestep secret: 7 dex 20 cha lvl 1 20+ AC minimum DC 15 on any spell
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While lacking a racial intelligence bonus, gnomes make excellent alchemists. And with Ultimate Combat out, you can have some fun with firearms.
Master Tinker +Gunsmithing +Master Alchemist +Swift Alchemy means that you can make your own firearms and not need to spend a feat on proficiency, and you'll be able to churn out guns and explosives at a prodigious rate.
Add in Pyromaniac and the racial favored class bonus, and you'll make a lot of bombs.
Make yourself a rifle, take the Explosive Missile discovery on top of every other bomb-related discovery you can get, and you'll essentially be pint-sized artillery, shooting high explosive rocket launchers at touch AC.
Don't forget Slash Weapon Mastery for the win.
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Oh god.
Gnomish Dirge Bard 2 / Heavens Oracle 1 / (Serpentine / Grove Born) Crossblooded Sorcerer X.
Bard gives you the ability to affect undead with mind-affecting spells.
Serpentine / Grove Born gives you the ability to affect plants, animals, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids.
Oracle gives you Awesome Display.
I guess the sorcerer part doesn't matter as much as the Dirge Bard. Dirge bard would mean you could Hypnotic Pattern undead. Or Rainbow pattern.
Ok, so it's probably best to go 2 levels of Dirge Bard and then the rest in Heavens Oracle, since you'll get all the important Pattern spells that way.
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Lance based cavaliers can do some kickin damage and small sized cavaliers can do almost the same damage without having to worry about having room for a large sized mount.
Of the two small sized races I'd go with a gnome over a halfling for a cavalier any day. The +2 DEX that halflings get isn't a huge deal since most cavaliers are rocking out the heavy armor and the +2 CON that gnomes get is always useful for a melee character.
my 2cp
- Torger
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The trait Trickster and the feats Effortless Trickery and Threatening Illusion allow a gnome to be a pretty damn good illusionist. I'd say the bonuses make up for the potential 2 point difference in intelligence between a gnome and an elf. Of course, Spell Focus: Illusion and Greater Spell Focus: Illusion are also must-haves. Varisian Tattoo: Illusion is also a good choice. And you get a few more ghost sound spell-like abilities per day if you give yourself a decent CHA as well.
Gnome Alchemist-Crossbowman!!
- Favorit Class Bonus: 1/2 bombs per day
- Pyromaniac (+1 level for bomb damage)
3d6 + int mod damage at level 4 on a touch attack is realy good ;-)
Breiti
I like mounted summoner with the alternate racial that lets you be proficient with anything you craft, make yourself a lance and some guns, have a good time.
Oracle of bones with fell magic?
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If you want to be something with a gnome that can't be replicated with another race then a prankster bard is your best bet. You are great at casting, and you have unique performances that don't suck while keeping inspire courage. Gnomes are also some of the best linguists in the game, and you get use out of that as a bard.
Gnome Illusionist, School Familiar, Effortless Trickery. You now have 2 virtually all day images, and the ability to add sound when necessary without losing concentration.
For a bit of an off-the-wall suggestion, Gnomes make fairly solid Monks thanks to Bewildering Koan. Go Sensei and you have yourself a pretty good support character. 1 level of Nature Oracle will let you run your AC off of Charisma so you can ignore both strength and dexterity.
EDIT: Oh dear, this is a very old thread. Oh well, gnomes kinda have a reputation for being a sucky race so this is a good discussion to have.
Just because it is not as good as a human that does not mean it's not optimal. Now if you are trying to ask what class does a gnome excel at compared to everyone other race that is an entirely different question.
Just because it is not as good as a human that does not mean it's not optimal. Now if you are trying to ask what class does a gnome excel at compared to everyone other race that is an entirely different question.
Well... no, being worse than a human makes it by definition suboptimal. Now, it can still be viable but that was not the question.
Granted, the existence of Racial Heritage makes most of the Gnome choices either worse or equal to a Human doing the same thing but I think for the purposes of this discussion we can just slide that under the table.
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Since the Awesome Display / Color Spray Oracle still works well at level 12-15, and because it revolves around a single level 1 spell, I would be tempted to try:
1 Dual Cursed Heavens Oracle with the Awesome Display revelation, and Extra Revelation for Misfortune.
Follow with Serpentine Blooded Sorcerer to gain the ability to affect more creature types with illusion.
Unfortunately, Graveborn requires Wildblooded, so is not available through Eldritch Heritage, and not combinable with Crossblooded (by RAW)
Follow with 2 levels of Dirge Bard for ability to affect undead with illusions.
Follow with 2 levels of Ninja only for bewildering koan (Omit if cannot have Bewildering Koan as Ninja Trick at level 2 Ninja)
Sorcerer for the remaining levels.
Level 1: Extra Revelation (Misfortune)
Level 3: Spell Focus (Illusion)
Level 5: Heighten Spell
Level 7: Persistent Spell
Level 9: Spontaneous Metafocus (Color Spray)
Level 11: Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)
Bonus (Serpentine) Deceitful (+2/+4 to Bluff)
Bonus (Ninja Trick) -> Combat Trick -> Bewildering Koan
11 Ranks in Bluff -- +9 Cha, +3 Class Skill, + 10 Mask of Stony Demeanor = +33 to Bluff . . you lie well.
11 Ranks in Perception = +0 Cha, +2
Traits: Wayang Spell Hunter (Color Spray) and Magical Lineage (Color Spray)
At level 12, you would cast as a 7th level sorcerer:
Assuming +6 headband, and 19 starting cha, +1 at 4, 8, and 12, you would have 28 Cha.
9/day 1st level, 8/day 2nd level, and 6/day 3rd level spells.
10 +1 (Gnome) +1 (Spell Focus) +1 (Greater SF) +9 (Cha) = 22 DC, without spell level on Illusions.
22 DC Cantrip, 23 DC level 1, 24 DC level 2, and 25 DC level 3 spells.
With Wayang Spell Hunter and Magical Lineage, you can persist at no level increase, so you can make a DC 25 Color Spray that the enemy has to roll twice to save against (once round one, once round 2 if first succeeded). If the bad guy succeeds, misfortune for yet another reroll. . . If still succeeds, bewildering koan to keep him from hitting you on his turn, then try again.
Works on all animal, magical beasts, undead, humanoids, etc. Not on plants though.
Level 12HD creatures count as 3 HD for purposes of your Color Spray.
According to Paizo's Monster Creation guidelines, a CR 12 monster will have a good save of +15 (vs your 25 DC) for a 50% success rate, without other considerations. They will have other saves at +11 (again v. 25 DC) which increases success rate to 70%.
With Persistent (which they all should be since it is free) the rates go to .5*.5= 25% save rate and .3*.3 = 9% save rate.
or 75%/91% chance for success. . . throw in Misfortune and you get up to a 87.5% success rate v. same level creatures.
This is a sleepy little hole-in-the-wall thread due for its irregular necro.
Many new archetypes out now; do any cater better to gnomes than other races?