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One of the coolest gaming experiences I ever had was when some friends and I tried out the DnD 2nd Ed optional rules for playing 0-level adventures. It made our characters come alive in a way they hadn't before and we felt like we were 5th level when we finally got to 1st level. We launched into a long campaign and then sort of drifted apart on our separate lives after that, so we never got to re-do it to see if it was just an amazing game moment or there was something to it.
When I tried it out again recently, it seems to be that it was just as cool, if very different even in the new 3.5/PF rulesets.
So:
1) Does anyone else ever do 0-level adventures?
2) If so, what rules do you use for your players?
3) One of the weird rules for 0-levels in 2nd ed was to let a 0-level character try to do anything ANY type of 1st level character could do, with a dice roll as a chance. That included turn undead, casting a spell, picking a lock, etc. Does anyone use this type of open-ended adaption anymore?
Just curious... :)
What are the rules for 0 level characters?
There are no pathfinder rules for zero level characters that I am aware of.
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No, there aren't any rules for 0-level PF play, and I seriously doubt there were any for 3.5 either. I had to make up my own rules for using PF for 0-level characters.
There were way too many rules to list in a post for 2nd ed, but basically you started at like -1500xp, and had to level up to 1st level before starting your regular game. It was another step that you could use if you wanted to get from normal commoner to 1st level adventurer without handwaving. Personally, I don't think I could do it that way again, but I have used it for my own groups to let them participate in a compex backstory rather than just dryly narrating or trying to paint an accurate picture with rumors from NPCs.
Just wondered if anyone else had ever used that technique...
There are two "apprentice-level" (i.e., level 0) 3rd party books out:
Learning Curve, and
The Genius Guide to Apprentice-level Characters.
Both have good reviews (I own the latter one).
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Not for Pathfinder, but back during my days of running Beyond The SuperNatural (BTSN) I often started out with a 'victims' game, and the surviving characters then got to go on to pick regular classes.
It usually worked really well - starting out of 'normal' folks then, after fighting off a zombie horde with nothing but the contents of your kitchen and garden shed, taking the fight to the 'bad guys' as regular classed characters. Of course, the turnover rate for victim characters was shocking... but the clue for why that was is in the name of the character type... ;)
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Both of these products are pretty great for 0-level or "Apprentice Level" characters. I was going to use them for my Curse of the Crimson Throne prologue. Just a matter of deciding which.
Learning Curve by Tricky Owlbear
and
The Genius Guide to Apprentice Level Characters by Super Genius Games
Anyway I've always wanted to run a campaign where the PCs start as children and it takes them all the way through to their retirement :-)
Edit: Ninja'd by Jeff de luna. I suspect he's an apprentice level ninja.
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I did do such a game in PF once. I had them all start out as level 1 commoners and had them RP their way towards a class. I was moving it faster than I would've like and they had their real class level after only about 2-3 sessions. For becoming their real class I basically had them replace the commoner level with the class level. Since commoner has all low saves and no class abilities, this turns out to be nothing but increase for everyone (except possibly druids, monks or wizards who get oddly specific weapons).
If I had to re-do it I'd probably only change what those first few sessions contained. I would probably change it to be that they are RPing who they were before becoming adventurers (picking their class ahead of time, still), and have them know each-other by some coincidence (like frequenting the same bar). After a session or two of this I'd probably have some minor adventure-hook type thing happen, and if they bite they upgrade to adventurers and start the real game.
Step 2: Some odd rumors are going around the area where the characters are. Have them react and possibly investigate.
Step 3: After a couple of sessions of the above, have them encounter something minor that solidifies the "There be some shit going down" for them.
Step 4: As a result of the above encounter (whether actually a monster or just a monologuing villain or even some solid evidence of foul play), have them transform that commoner level into a class level.
Note: The characters should have worked together to make the discovery that starts the adventure, and do so while mostly going about their (now former) daily lives.
Both of these products are pretty great for 0-level or "Apprentice Level" characters. I was going to use them for my Curse of the Crimson Throne prologue. Just a matter of deciding which.
Learning Curve by Tricky Owlbear
and
The Genius Guide to Apprentice Level Characters by Super Genius Games
Anyway I've always wanted to run a campaign where the PCs start as children and it takes them all the way through to their retirement :-)
Edit: Ninja'd by Jeff de luna. I suspect he's an apprentice level ninja.
Sadly, there aren't any apprentice-level rules for Ninja in the book I have, because they post-date (in the rules) that book.
But I had to laugh, because my Dex is at best an 8. And I'm wearing plaid pants.
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Both of these products are pretty great for 0-level or "Apprentice Level" characters. I was going to use them for my Curse of the Crimson Throne prologue. Just a matter of deciding which.
Learning Curve by Tricky Owlbear
and
The Genius Guide to Apprentice Level Characters by Super Genius Games
Anyway I've always wanted to run a campaign where the PCs start as children and it takes them all the way through to their retirement :-)
Edit: Ninja'd by Jeff de luna. I suspect he's an apprentice level ninja.
Sadly, there aren't any apprentice-level rules for Ninja in the book I have, because they post-date (in the rules) that book.
But I had to laugh, because my Dex is at best an 8. And I'm wearing plaid pants.
The deadliest clan of Ninja are the Satori Caber Tossers. They are the silent wind of doom that comes in the night and drops a tree on your house.
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Alternatively you can use the above "apprentice" level rules in conjunction with the child-level rules I plan on using in my prologue game.
Child Level
After placing ability scores and adding racial modifiers apply the Young template to the character.
(+4 Dexterity, -4 Strength, -4 Constitution)
Racial Abilities: Child level characters gain all abilities except weapon proficiencies.
HP: 1 + 1/2 Con Mod (Minimum 1)
Skill Points: 1/2 Int mod. Humans gain their racial skill point. Child Level characters have no class skills.
Armour/Weapon Proficiencies: Club and Sling. Any kid knows how to swing a stick or use a sling :)
Feats: You do not gain any feats, even racial bonus feats.
Special Abilities: None.
Spells: None.
_______________________________________________________________________
These rules make for EXTREMELY weak and fragile characters. When designing the first adventure it should focus more on role-playing and shenanigans rather than combat or skill challenges.
Such challenges should take into account the high degree of failure (except possibly for things such as stealth and escape artist. Tiny halflings will be amazing at getting into places they shouldn't.)
If you are using experience points. Assume a child level character has -50 xp.
I recommend instead only having one "child-level" session before you fast-forward to the character's apprentice level.
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Both of these products are pretty great for 0-level or "Apprentice Level" characters. I was going to use them for my Curse of the Crimson Throne prologue. Just a matter of deciding which.
Learning Curve by Tricky Owlbear
Sadly, there aren't any apprentice-level rules for Ninja in the book I have, because they post-date (in the rules) that book.
Hi all!
Glad you like Learning Curve by Tricky Owlbear!
I've actually been thinking recently about that very thing. Since Learning Curve came out, we have a few new classes (and alternate classes) including the Magus, Samurai, Ninja and Gunslinger.
Maybe I should get with the good folks at Tricky Owlbear and talk about doing an updated version which includes these new classes ...
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Alternatively you can use the above "apprentice" level rules in conjunction with the child-level rules I plan on using in my prologue game.
...
I recommend instead only having one "child-level" session before you fast-forward to the character's apprentice level.
Dude. That is an awesome idea.
My next campaign is going to be Kingmaker, but when I'm done running that I plan on doing a campaign I've always wanted to run about a band of adventurers who all grew up in the same town.
But I never thought of having the first session take place when they're all children. That's just brilliant.
I've seen a similar thing done with NPC classes. One GM I played with once had everyone begin as a warrior, expert, or adept, and play through an adventure. After reaching a certain point, the party members would become 1st level characters in a class of their choosing.
This is also an amazingly good way to give characters a few more options and possibly toughening them up without making them much stronger, assuming you allow them to keep the NPC level without it counting towards their progression (so you might be warrior 1 / fighter 1 at 1st, or adept 1 / barbarian, or warrior 1 / sorcerer 1, etc).
On a mildly related note, I recently began a game where everyone is playing using 3 point buy and NPC classes, with the addition of gaining a bonus feat every level. I expanded adepts to be able to begin with 4 0-level spells and 2 1st level spells, gain +2 spells each level, and may select spells from any spell list (sor/wiz, cleric, druid, bard, paladin, ranger, etc).
So far the game has been something of a blast. It's something of a doom to the world scenario where plague zombies are spreading throughout civilization, and they are essentially trying to find the source, save the world, and survive long enough to do it.
On a side note, a bunch of plague-zombie bats and ravens are really scary. :P
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The reason I started this thread is because a friend of mine who GMs asked me about it, as did someone on the boards here. I wrote up a very short doc about how I went about running a 0-level session, but I realized I have very few mechanics to go with it. I plan to check out the two 3rd party rules though, they sound interesting.
If anyone is interested, here are the guidelines I use with my group, including links of my session details for RotRL and KM:
I scaled the 'Into the Haunted Forest' module down and ran it as a 0-level game.
Players ranked their ability scores 0-5 in order of increasing importance to them. then I just added 10 to get their scores to 10-15.
they could be a warrior or expert and got the opportunity to take a rank in a skill if they tried to use that skill. warriors got +1 BAB, but fewer potential skill ranks.
I altered the magic items in the module to allow characters to try out class abilities: a renewing potion of healing or holy water, a cooperative magic wand, a stealth device, and a magic weapon.
There was actually an 1st or 2nd edition DnD module for 0-level adventurers- N4 Treasure Hunt
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The reason I started this thread is because a friend of mine who GMs asked me about it, as did someone on the boards here. I wrote up a very short doc about how I went about running a 0-level session, but I realized I have very few mechanics to go with it. I plan to check out the two 3rd party rules though, they sound interesting.
If anyone is interested, here are the guidelines I use with my group, including links of my session details for RotRL and KM:
Cool stuff, redcelt. Saved that for later.
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If you run a 'child level' adventure in Pathfinder you can end up doing some interesting things thanks to the different ways the various races interact with the age categories.
For example, you could have one or two PCs as full level 1 adventurers from one of the longer-lived races - like a veteran dwarven Fighter, or a scholarly elven Wizard, or whatever - and the human, half-human, and halfling characters starting out as kids. Then, after the child-level adventure which brings them all together for the first time you skip 10 years - the kids are all now grown into level 1 characters... and the longer-lived races are still level 1 characters too, emphasizing the differences in how longer-lived races tend to view the passage of time.
Obviously one for more role-play focused groups (who won't abuse the initial differences in power between the characters)... but then again the whole 'level 0' concept tends to be anyway I'd imagine.
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If you run a 'child level' adventure in Pathfinder you can end up doing some interesting things thanks to the different ways the various races interact with the age categories.
For example, you could have one or two PCs as full level 1 adventurers from one of the longer-lived races - like a veteran dwarven Fighter, or a scholarly elven Wizard, or whatever - and the human, half-human, and halfling characters starting out as kids. Then, after the child-level adventure which brings them all together for the first time you skip 10 years - the kids are all now grown into level 1 characters... and the longer-lived races are still level 1 characters too, emphasizing the differences in how longer-lived races tend to view the passage of time.
Obviously one for more role-play focused groups (who won't abuse the initial differences in power between the characters)... but then again the whole 'level 0' concept tends to be anyway I'd imagine.
I agree completely Prof. You always see elves and dwarves for example in movies as the sage voices of experience and the humans as young people learning as they go, but that never seems to translate into the game. If you were to start like you said, that just naturally seems to be emphasized and gets factored in much more clearly than if everyone just rolled up 1st levels and started the game.
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I did a game like this once. They started out with nothing but their racial bonuses, their choice of three skills to put 1D4 of points into, and the tools of whatever trade they worked in. Future casters were allowed three cantrips/orisons a day to represent their arcane or divine training, and future martial characters could pick 1 simple weapon and use padded armor. Everyone got 1D4 hit points and rolled up three characters. There were just under twenty level 0 characters by the time they were ready to start the adventure. Then the mob of peasants, townsfolk, acolytes, squires, and half-trained apprentices gathered their courage and marched into the dungeon.
It was a bloodbath.
But when the six survivors dragged themselves out of the dungeon, bruised, bloodied, and in serious need of both medical attention and a strong drink, we had our party. At the end of our 0 level adventure everyone felt like they had a better backstory and deeper bond than a group of strangers who met in a tavern one night.
there are 1/2 lvl characters in pathfinder
?
You're probably thinking of Staggered Advancement. But even there, characters are supposed to start at level 1 and proceed to level 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, etc.
I remember the 2e rules but we never got the chance to try out that option. I'd love to do something like this; I wish I'd started my new campaign out the same way.
This was a thing in 1E ADnD
Treasure Hunt was a module where (I'm recalling here) you started out at -500 XP. How you behaved had a tendency to predict what you became at 0XP.
Also an old Dungeon adventure called (I think) Beyond Vulture Point.
I did something similar with Ironfang Invasion. I started the characters out as commoners with the young template. We did short mini-quest that lead them down different NPC class routes and served to develop relations with the town. The actual adventure started when they were level 2 (warrior, expert, or adept with special boons to mimic their eventual adventurer levels).
The intention was that surviving the first part of the adventure would ‘harden’ them, allowing them to retrain their NPC levels into adventurer class levels. It made the initial gameplay more gritty and realistic.
Make sure all your players buy in to the idea.
I revisited this not too long ago (with commoner only start - close enough) and it reminded me of all the reasons I hated it.
How would some of you feel about a '0th level' adventure with young characters and NPC rules, and then flashing forward to 5th level?
It's an idea percolating in my head that I thought might be interesting. PCs meet as kids, and then later as badasses they get to work. Kind've like It) I suppose.
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I think 0-Level adventures is a missed opportunity for many game tables. It truly is an origin building mechanism that would greatly enhance any game. The idea of it could be taken as "old starting hit points" where you can get slain much easier. Perhaps you can run an adventure for the fighter. Have him in a war and let the party play five soldiers, with the last man standing becoming the future Fighter of the party, except everyone knows it could have gone many directions depending who survived.
It really is endless and oddly not explored.
FWIW, there are rules for 0 level characters in Goodman Games old 3.5 Edition books. Specifically, The Aereth Boxed Set and two DCC modules (DCC0- Legends are made, not born and DCC35a- Halls of the Minotaur).
In a nutshell you use NPC classes as stated in other posts (Commoner, Warrior, Expert, Adept etc. later they even added a "Guard" class iirc.), and start XP at -2000. When you level back up to 0 XP you choose the class you were originally intending to take.
I split the Adept class myself because it uses both divine and arcane spells. Essentially, it became two classes depending on what class was to be chosen later: Adept (divine) and Apprentice (arcane).
in the game I'm currently running, I had them start out at 0th(?) level. To the players they were playing D20 Modern Urban Arcana, while it actually is a crazy Gestalt-Pathfinder-D20 Modern-Mythic mashup. Everybody made basic characters from D20 Modern with typical fantasy races available during Session 0. I then took those characters, and made them into children, with custom kid character sheets and handed them to the players during the first actual session.
Ran them through some general kid hijinks, before introducing the larger thread elements of the actual adventure. Basically a Hag comes to town every 10 years to feed and make sacrifices for her dark gods, along with her very venerable Ogre companion and army of Mites. Some of the kids' friend go missing and in investigating they discover the existence of the Ogre and the Mites.
My plan was to have their Pathfinder Gestalted side decided by the choices they made as children, one of those being that once they actually got into the adventure, I let them loot their "toy box" before going on the adventure, with each getting to choose 3 items from about 25 different toys and equipment I had made into little cards, things like; bicycle, hockey pads, the swatter, slingshot, a juice box, animal crackers, comic book collection, rubix cube, etc...Depending on what they choose, I gave them "points" towards various classes, along with additional points for some choices they made, some checks they passed or failed and for general roleplaying. So for instance, one character, an Orc, chose a baseball bat, hockey pads and a juice box and later on grabbed a hub cap that acted as a shield; so mace, armor, shield, healing potion that he later even gave to another child, thus he became a Cleric. Another character took some fireworks, matches, and the Rubix cube, failed nearly every physical check that was called upon, but generally used his wits and explosions to get past the dangers, becoming a Wizard, and so on and so on.
Anyways, to wrap all that up, everyone had a blast and most were actually kind of sorry to have to play their adult versions, but I promised them I'd do "flashback" scenarios where they could play as the kids again. Also, awaiting for another player to join so I can run a flashback where the new kid moved into the neighborhood for awhile but then left...