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Just to be clear and avoid misunderstanding, I mean to say that the only clarification needed is that Zen Archer and Snap Shot are indeed exceptions to the general rule.
Well... in this case.. in as far as Drawing Ammunition outside your turn is concerned.
Quandary brought up a lot more related cases of the nebulous free action occurring outside your turn.
The drawing ammunition problem is unfortunately one of many.
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Not really. Flanking is specifically for melee attacks. Since you don't have any feats or abilities that state you can flank with ranged weapons, you can't.Okay,I think Snap Shot broke more than loading your bow with an arrow as a free action.
The rules text quoted above says that you threaten with your bow. Does that mean that you can now also flank with a bow?
And I think it just broke the Gang Up feat. Again.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus
if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character
or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.So, an archer can now provide flanking, even if not adjacent using the Improved Snap Shot feat, but not gain flanking themselves?
Bogus.
At this point, it should be errataed/updated to say:
When making an attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus
if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character
or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.Much simpler, and more in keeping with abilities that let ranged weapons threaten.
you still dont flank. you can make a ranged AoO, but you will not get flankings bonus. now if you are adjacent to the enemy you can PROVIDE a flanking bonus as if you were threatening with a melee weapon, but since firing a bow isnt a melee weapon you dont get the +2 even tho you threaten
One thing, Snap shot allows you to threaten 5' around you right?
But if you do make an AoO agains said target, would you draw an AoO yourself?
Regardless, by RAW, the archers are out of luck beyond being able to have an arrow out at the end of their turn (and thus get one AOO).
-James
This was my thought after reading Snap Shot. However, since Zen Archer specifically mentions Combat Reflex, I think the intent is pretty clear.
FAQ button ftw?
Talonhawke, I suggest you read up on Jason Bulmahn`s (author of the rules) explanation of the Attack action re: Vital Strike, available on d20pfsrd.com`s FAQ section (under Vital Strike).
One thing, Snap shot allows you to threaten 5' around you right?
But if you do make an AoO agains said target, would you draw an AoO yourself?
Attacking with a ranged weapon whilst being threatened draws an AoO, so yes!
Clearly two trains of thought apply to the snap shot feat.
1, it works regardless!
2, it needs to be clarified!
IMO I like the it works regardless option, no messy clarifications needed after all the game is all about fun. Anything that spoils that fun is not welcome!
Just rule it how you want to for your games. Get the AoO using a bow allow the free draw of an arrow and fire it. Heck if you want to be pedantic swing the bow as an improvised melee weapon.
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While wielding a ranged weapon with which
you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5
feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with
that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of
opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack
of opportunity.Improved Snap Shot increases the threatened range by 10.
Cheapy pointed this out earlier in the thread but it has been quickly buried so thought it might help to point it out again to nip this in the bud.
Just because you can make an attack action does not make it a standard action. There are certain things you can do during a standard action, one being an attack.
Standard action is a slot that only certain things can fit in, like an attack. Their other slots that attack can fit in like AoO.
Well, no matter what, I haven't seen a post get as many FAQ requests like this one, so I think it'll get an answer sooner or later :)
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Wow, some people focus way to much on the exact wording in the book, treat it like it was a Bible - except most people have the sense to take that less literally. Still, each to their own styles, it does fascinate me seeing the deep analysis that goes into scouring the rules to within an inch of its life.
It wouldn't even have occured to me to ask whether or not I can draw and fire more than once for AoO, it's pretty much a given that I can out of common sense.
Hell, I wouldn't even differentiate drawing and notching an arrow - it's all part of the same action. You don't draw an arrow, pause, notch, fire. You drawnotch fire - you are an expert archer for goodness sake.
Definitely worth FAQing as so many do rely very heavily on exact wording. Though if you have a real anal DM then you just have to find ways round it - Drawing your arrows and placing them in the ground is one way, they are not at the ready and would no longer be 'drawn' but simply an act of notching which is not an action.
Or you can go with the 'Firing!' trick which I like.
Wow, some people focus way to much on the exact wording in the book, treat it like it was a Bible - except most people have the sense to take that less literally. Still, each to their own styles, it does fascinate me seeing the deep analysis that goes into scouring the rules to within an inch of its life.
It wouldn't even have occured to me to ask whether or not I can draw and fire more than once for AoO, it's pretty much a given that I can out of common sense.
Hell, I wouldn't even differentiate drawing and notching an arrow - it's all part of the same action. You don't draw an arrow, pause, notch, fire. You drawnotch fire - you are an expert archer for goodness sake.
Definitely worth FAQing as so many do rely very heavily on exact wording. Though if you have a real anal DM then you just have to find ways round it - Drawing your arrows and placing them in the ground is one way, they are not at the ready and would no longer be 'drawn' but simply an act of notching which is not an action.
Or you can go with the 'Firing!' trick which I like.
I agree with you there, to me it's pretty clear cut. And you can draw as part of the AoO, but I hit FAQ to help my friends there :)
Thing is, it does bring a lot of questions regarding other stuff. For instance, IF you can use your free action out of turn to AoO, what does it say about someone with quick draw?|
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I still think it is within the bounds of the rules because if the feat allows you to take AoOs with a bow, you aren't beholden to those specific rules in the Core - ala you can draw arrows to make your AoOs. If you couldn't, why would they even make a feat like that?
Also, maybe they don't want to amend the Core every single time a new sourcebook comes out that slightly changes the ability of one character. They like to make errata changes all at once, which means some time after UC comes out, but I doubt you'll see it anytime soon (they also need to consider how much 4th edition printing of the rulebook is left in stock and seeing if another print run is necessary). Asking Paizo to change all other books as soon as a new one comes out to account for the new things is very tedious and long job (which I'm sure they don't have time for with their editing schedules), and they expect us to have some ability to flex to account them as a GM. This isn't to say they mess up sometimes (search Glorious Heat or Terrible Remorse, for instance), but Paizo is generally good about showing the true intent of their mechanic.
There are only two actions that can be done out of turn.
1. Attacks of opportunity.
2. Immediate actions (costs the next turns's swift action)
Everything else can only be done on your turn.
3. Free Action (Speaking)
Also, maybe they don't want to amend the Core every single time a new sourcebook comes out that slightly changes the ability of one character.
This is a strange argument. They would not have to ammend anything if they stayed in the rules framework they have already created.
As James said, they can simply edit the new abilities rather than the core rules. However, if they are going to make "whole hog" changes such as the free action outside of your turn, then that should be reflected in the Core.
3. Free Action (Speaking)There are only two actions that can be done out of turn.
1. Attacks of opportunity.
2. Immediate actions (costs the next turns's swift action)
Everything else can only be done on your turn.
4. Readied Actions.
English is not my mother English, but the way I read this:
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.
means to me that to take Free Actions you need to take before a different type of action. Also the wording action normally is a bit ambiguous, maybe you translate into 'actions that normally you can take' or indipendent actions. Free actions for example are not by definition indipendent actions because the only way you can perform them is in response to a previous action.
EDIT: I found definition of Another:
1. One more, in addition to a former number; a second or additional one, similar in likeness or in effect.
2. Not the same; different.
3. Any or some; any different person, indefinitely; any one else; some one else.
,So it can be read
1. free actions can be made in conjunction or after an action, even a free action
or 2. free actions can be performed only in conjunction or after a move action, a standard action or whatever is not a Free Action.
Even with the clarification of the wording and in the worst case (number 2) you will be able to take a free action when is not your turn by performing an immediate action or an AoO or even a readied action (this last one debatable because You can ready a Free ACtion...).
So you want to rage in your enemy's turn? Use an immediate action, then enter rage...
Talonhawke, I suggest you read up on Jason Bulmahn`s (author of the rules) explanation of the Attack action re: Vital Strike, available on d20pfsrd.com`s FAQ section (under Vital Strike).
Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?
A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action.
Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions List. You see that Attack is is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability. [Source]
if this is what you meant then i would think this backs me up.
Talonhawke, I suggest you read up on Jason Bulmahn`s (author of the rules) explanation of the Attack action re: Vital Strike, available on d20pfsrd.com`s FAQ section (under Vital Strike).
Utter garbage.
The reason I am wondering is my gut says 'doesn't feel right...I think."
Why do you say that? (Just wondering.)Talonhawke, I suggest you read up on Jason Bulmahn`s (author of the rules) explanation of the Attack action re: Vital Strike, available on d20pfsrd.com`s FAQ section (under Vital Strike).Utter garbage.
I've always hat a beef with Jason Bulmahn's "clarification" of attack action ever since it was made.
It's one of the few things I vehemently disagree with him on. I think it's a terrible ruling that has only served to hurt the game.
Talonhawke: The rest of the responses in that section include explicit statements that Vital Strike (which works on the Attack action) DOESN´T work with other types of attacks such as Spring Attack, Charge, Cleave even though all of those allow ´a melee attack´, which it seems like you understand as being equivalent to the Attack action... I hope the conflict there is obvious.
If it helps to understand things, you could mentally replace any reference to the phrase ´attack action´ (NOT any reference to ´attack´) with ´standard attack action´ or ´vital strike action´. I do a similar thing with Size Bonus category, sometimes referring to it as ´Polymorph Bonus´ since that´s basically how it is used, and it can apply even when no size changes are involved.
I don´t know what else to say. Go ask 10 PFS GM´s how they run it in PFS, if I can´t convince you.
Talonhawke: The rest of the responses in that section include explicit statements that Vital Strike (which works on the Attack action) DOESN´T work with other types of attacks such as Spring Attack, Charge, Cleave even though all of those allow ´a melee attack´, which it seems like you understand as being equivalent to the Attack action... I hope the conflict there is obvious.
If it helps to understand things, you could mentally replace any reference to the phrase ´attack action´ (NOT any reference to ´attack´) with ´standard attack action´ or ´vital strike action´. I do a similar thing with Size Bonus category, sometimes referring to it as ´Polymorph Bonus´ since that´s basically how it is used, and it can apply even when no size changes are involved.
I don´t know what else to say. Go ask 10 PFS GM´s how they run it in PFS, if I can´t convince you.
If i was talking vital strike on a AoO this might make sense. However i am pointing out that a Melee attack is something listed on the actions chart which i would say allows you the arrow draw. The point i am making was in reference to being told that AoO arent even actions at all since they weren't specificlly called out on the actions chart.
The difference being if you are needing to quickdraw the weapon their is no action going on to quickdraw it. No weapon No AoO unless you have IUS. I have an arrow nocked to make the 1st AoO with snap shot which gives me the action to trigger my free action.
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The difference being if you are needing to quickdraw the weapon their is no action going on to quickdraw it. No weapon No AoO unless you have IUS. I have an arrow nocked to make the 1st AoO with snap shot which gives me the action to trigger my free action.
If you are using your Free action to REload your weapon as opposed to PREload, you should be able to Qualify for multiple AOOs with a Bow.
I Have a nocked arrow, make an AOO free action draw arrow and nock it allowing me to make further AOO as per Combat reflexses.
I Have a nocked arrow, make an AOO free action draw arrow and nock it allowing me to make further AOO as per Combat reflexses.
You can't draw arrows (or any weapon for that matter) outside of your turn - without some feat or class ability that allows you to explicitly do so.
If you could draw weapons as free actions, then an unarmed character with Quickdraw could draw a Longspear and hit a charging character with an AoO.
You can draw the arrows when its not your turn. Drawing an arrow is a non action, its part of another action, in this case making the attack of opportunity.
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
You can draw the arrows when its not your turn. Drawing an arrow is a non action, its part of another action, in this case making the attack of opportunity.
Couple problems with this interpretation:
1. An AoO is not classified as an action type (mind-boggling, but true). So, can't do it.
2. Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Contradicting entries in the Combat Chapter.
You can draw the arrows when its not your turn. Drawing an arrow is a non action, its part of another action, in this case making the attack of opportunity.Couple problems with this interpretation:
1. An AoO is not classified as an action type (mind-boggling, but true). So, can't do it.
2. Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Contradicting entries in the Combat Chapter.
Also, nocking an arrow isn't the same as drawing it.
Also, nocking an arrow isn't the same as drawing it.
d'oh. +1 cheapy for your literary sleuthing. I should have also seen that.
1. An AoO is not classified as an action type (mind-boggling, but true). So, can't do it.
Those two statements do not logically lead from one to the other.
2. Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Contradicting entries in the Combat Chapter.
Is there anything that says you can't do free actions when its not your turn?
At best you have a VERY direct, and absurdly specific rule saying that you can do it, and a possible mayby interpretation of free actions and drawing amunition that says you cant. What you also have is one interpretation that works with the feat, and another interpretation that renders the feat useless. All signs point to drawing ammunition being subsumed into the larger action of the attack of opportunity here. "draw ammo" isn't an action.
BNW, the problem is that free actions say that you can do them on your turn. Talking is a specific exception.
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
-I don't see anything limiting it to your turn.
Free Actions
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
Cease Concentration on Spell
You can stop concentrating on a spell as a free action.
Drop an Item
Dropping an item in your space or into an adjacent square is a free action.
Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
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It says that you can speak when its not your turn, it doesn't specify what free actions might or might not be legal to do when its not your turn.
The idea that the attack of opportunity isn't an action strikes me as absurd. In the game it takes the same time (or less) to draw an arrow and shoot it than it does to swing a sword, so if you can swing a sword as an aoo you knock and arrow and shoot someone.
Knock means to put it to the string. Presumably that includes taking it from somewhere.
I believe that all those arguments were brought up either in my original post or in the thread this spunoff from.
By specifically mentioning that speaking is a free action that can be done out of turn, it's heavily implying that it's the abnormality.
This is why I wanted people to FAQ this. The text never specifically says one way or another. At best, you can speak out of turn and pull an arrow out by having the drawing action be tied to the speaking, since that's allowed.
BNW, read up on this thread since a lot of the questions/comments you're noting have been brought up before.
-I don't see anything limiting it to your turn.
[...]
It says that you can speak when its not your turn, it doesn't specify what free actions might or might not be legal to do when its not your turn.
Really? The only actions you can do outside your turn are Immediate Actions and Free Action (Talking).
Else we have strange scenarios like these:
DM: Archers open fire on the group!
Players: We drop prone in response. +4 AC please.
DM: Wizard casts shocking grasp and gets a +3 to their attack roll for you wielding a shortsword.
Player: I drop my shortsword as a free action in response, no bonus.
DM: An Orc emerges from the Darkness and charges you!
Player: As a free action I drop my Rapier, I quickdraw my Longspear as a Free Action and AoO him before he finishes the charge.
There's a few problems with this interpretation.
The idea that the attack of opportunity isn't an action strikes me as absurd. In the game it takes the same time (or less) to draw an arrow and shoot it than it does to swing a sword, so if you can swing a sword as an aoo you knock and arrow and shoot someone.
But, it is not. Check the Actions table in the Combat Chapter for reference. I'm just communicating what's written. It is not an attack action (else you could Vital Strike on an AoO).
To clarifly: an Attack of Opportunity is not classified as an Action nor is it classified as Not An Action. It is in its own weird version of Pathfinder Limbo.
Knock means to put it to the string. Presumably that includes taking it from somewhere.
This is not the case as I even quoted the relevant rules text about drawing ammunition being a free action.
Really? The only actions you can do outside your turn are Immediate Actions and Free Action (Talking).
-False dichotomy. It is not you allow all free actions or you allow no free actions except speaking. You have the option to allow some free actions but not others.
Else we have strange scenarios like these:
DM: Archers open fire on the group!
Players: We drop prone in response. +4 AC please.
-Dm BNW- Sorry, you're shot then you drop prone. Free actions are not immediate actions, they don't interrupt.
DM: Wizard casts shocking grasp and gets a +3 to their attack roll for you wielding a shortsword.
Player: I drop my shortsword as a free action in response, no bonus.
-Dm BNW- Sorry, you're electrocuted and then drop the sword. Free actions are not immediate actions, they don't interrupt.
DM: An Orc emerges from the Darkness and charges you!
Player: As a free action I drop my Rapier, I quickdraw my Longspear as a Free Action and AoO him before he finishes the charge.
-I think that's the kenjuisti ability.
But, it is not. Check the Actions table in the Combat Chapter for reference. I'm just communicating what's written. It is not an attack action (else you could Vital Strike on an AoO).
Its ridiculously pedantic to get this worked up over the status of an attack of opportunity based on its absence on a table.
This is not the case as I even quoted the relevant rules text about drawing ammunition being a free action.
And i quoted where its a non action. I don't see much difference between a free action and a non action.
-False dichotomy. It is not you allow all free actions or you allow no free actions except speaking. You have the option to allow some free actions but not others.
Who is the arbiter? Thus far speaking is the only Free Action known to be allowed outside of your own turn in a standardized manner.
Its ridiculously pedantic to get this worked up over the status of an attack of opportunity based on its absence on a table.
Not defined in the table, not defined in the combat chapter.. not defined in the book... at what point do we get excited?
And i quoted where its a non action.
You quoted nocking an arrow, that is not the same as drawing. Nocking is putting the arrow from your hand onto the bow string. I would like to see where it says drawing an arrow is a non-action.
Nock (verb):
2: to fit (an arrow) against a bowstring.
I don't see much difference between a free action and a non action.
You may not, but the Pathfinder rules do... it even has a dedicated part of the combat chapter. They are very specific in this:
Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Not an Action
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
If Pathfinder were as lax in its rules as you seem to think it is why would they bother with this? Why not just expand Free Action.
Answer: They are not.
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I Have a nocked arrow, make an AOO free action draw arrow and nock it allowing me to make further AOO as per Combat reflexses.You can't draw arrows (or any weapon for that matter) outside of your turn - without some feat or class ability that allows you to explicitly do so.
If you could draw weapons as free actions, then an unarmed character with Quickdraw could draw a Longspear and hit a charging character with an AoO.
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
Source WWW.D20PFSRD.com
If you already have the Bow Ready then After the first AOO it is a Free action to Reload
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What allows you to use a Weapon during a AOO?
Melee weapons Require to have them drawn and have available AOOs that round
Projectile Weapons require you to have the weapon loaded, and out and have available AOOs that round
If your Bow is loaded aka Nocked you can fire your bow correct?
Does this count as "Using your Bow"?
SKR confirmed in a. FAQ post that free actions can't be done out of turn.
If you already have the Bow Ready then After the first AOO it is a Free action to Reload
Err? I'm not sure of your point here. No one is disputing that it is a free action, the crux of the matter lies in the details. Can you or can you not draw ammunition as a free action outside your turn? That is not clearly defined in the rules, but most free actions (aside from talking) can't be used outside your turn. There are a few oddities with muddled language that have been discussed in the thread and in other threads.
If you had an arrow ready in the bow, of course you could shoot it as your AoO. That takes care of AoO #1, we agree. However, drawing ammo as a free action is usually only done on your turn. Thus making AoO #2 impossible because you need to draw a fresh arrow (reload), knock it again and fire.
Finally, I'm not sure why you decided to quote the Ammunition text as it directly correlates with my Quickdraw example (which is also a Free Action).
@ cheapy
Can you give a link to that?
No. I am on my phone. Check the APG FAQ though.
SKR confirmed in a. FAQ post that free actions can't be done out of turn.Does that mean a good portion of Free actions should be immediates?
They should be Not An Action, imo. Just like how Life Link was changed to a NAA from a free action.