is curious how you managed a copy of this already when the book isn't supposed to come out before Gencon.
is curious how you managed a copy of this already when the book isn't supposed to come out before Gencon.
Subscribers get it when their copies ship. Check out Paizo Products forum.
OP, is the auto-stun power still there?
Ah well... I'm looking over Ultimate Combat's final version of the Gunslinger is very similar to the Playtest 2 version. It's tweaked in a few placed, such as the Nimble ability at level 2, but overall the list of Deeds you get is largely unchanged, plus your Grit is still capped at your Wisdom bonus.
The end result is that the dynamism that I'd hoped to emerge with the Gunslinger just isn't there. In the first six levels there are very few Deeds that really come into play on a consistent basis during sessions.
The thing I was hoping to see the most was more mobility for the class. Having Shot on the Run baked into the class would have fit well with the nature of firearms, and it would have helped to better define the class' gritty dynamism. Unfortunately the Leaping Shot feat is still the angle taken to do this. It is a more spectacular ability, but the Grit cost and ending prone at the end of the action just knocks it out of contention as a serious feat.
The other thing that I'm rather surprised about is that the Rapid Reload feat is still something disconnected from the class. The absolute need to take this feat for the class to function at just a marginal level of performance really ought to have meant that you should be getting it for free at level 1. One of the mantras that came out of the playtests were that the class is "feat starved" and at least giving the class Rapid Reload would have been a way to acknowledge that criticism and help mitigate it the issue somewhat.
I don't think that shot on the run would fit at all with gunslingers. Most shooting is done stationary. Otherwise you miss like crazy. And crossbowmen don't get rapid reload for free either. But I agree maybe they both should've gotten that.
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Very intriguing indeed. Maybe you should wait a week talking about the final print of Ultimate Combat as it has not been released yet. IF you have a final copy you obviously didn't pay for it.
Maybe Paizo needs to go through there supply line and find out who leaked the pdf ahead of time.
Strong accusations. I can assure you that the PDF is available for some of the subscribers to the main PFRPG line. Its 100% official, I've seen my friends pdf copy, complete with his name and email watermarked across the top.
OP, is the auto-stun power still there?
"Stunning Shot (Ex): At 19th level, when a gunslinger hits a
creature, she can spend 2 grit points to stun the creature for1 round. The creature must make a Fortitude saving throw
(the DC = 10 + 1/2 the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s
Wisdom modifier). If the creature fails, it is stunned for 1
round. Creatures that are immune to critical hits are also
immune to this effect."
Was it 19 in the playtest? People were really worried about a martial character getting something sweet at level 19? I know it didn't have a save back then, but at this point, the wizard is dropping Time Stops and Gates like there is no tomorrow. Yep, just checked. It was a level 19 ability. God forbid the martials get cool stuff at high levels.
I don't think that shot on the run would fit at all with gunslingers. Most shooting is done stationary. Otherwise you miss like crazy. And crossbowmen don't get rapid reload for free either. But I agree maybe they both should've gotten that.
The Crossbowman archetype is basically designed around a single shot per round. That's awful, but that's clearly how it is and you would only need Rapid Reload for the Heavy Crossbow then. Plus, Fighters are not feat starved anyway.
It was attainable much earlier, you didn't have to spend Grit for it to happen, and I don't believe it had a save associated with it.
I don't remember if that was a version 1 or version 2 snapshot of it, though.
I do remember thinking it was very, very powerful.
OP, is the auto-stun power still there?"Stunning Shot (Ex): At 19th level, when a gunslinger hits a
creature, she can spend 2 grit points to stun the creature for
1 round. The creature must make a Fortitude saving throw
(the DC = 10 + 1/2 the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s
Wisdom modifier). If the creature fails, it is stunned for 1
round. Creatures that are immune to critical hits are also
immune to this effect."Was it 19 in the playtest? People were really worried about a martial character getting something sweet at level 19? I know it didn't have a save back then, but at this point, the wizard is dropping Time Stops and Gates like there is no tomorrow. Yep, just checked. It was a level 19 ability. God forbid the martials get cool stuff at high levels.
Nothing is going to fail that save except on a 1 at that level. Almost nothing would fail that save except on a 1 at HALF that level.
@Cheapy: if I ask about an auto-stun ability, is because I fear they didn't fix it (thus leaving it without a save). But is not the case.
Trust me, I would give meleers far more than what is generally given, but with reason.
@Cartigan: Feats it's essentially all they get. Thus, because of feat chains, they are even MORE feat starved.
People will realize it when all the fancy styles and finishing moves will not get a place, and cool moves should be removed because of this
And about Stunning shot... I guess is another case of overnerf I guess.
What I'm curious about is how you could miss the 10 bazillion posts on Ultimate Combat and Cheapy spilling the beans for the last 24 hours with his subscription pdf?
There was an 8 hour break <_<. Although I'm also curious about how people missed that. I'm guessing people don't use this link to browse?
is curious how you managed a copy of this already when the book isn't supposed to come out before Gencon.Yep, it's been in "My Downloads" since at least the early afternoon. I put myself on the subscription to get the pdf early so I can assume Alpha-Geekness not only on the net, but especially in my local group, who bow before my obsessive forum reading willpower.
What I'm curious about is how you could miss the 10 bazillion posts on Ultimate Combat and Cheapy spilling the beans for the last 24 hours with his subscription pdf?
I'm going to blame it on a brain fart -- some reason I didn't realize it had shipped already and therefore would of course be available on pdf to subscribers.
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Ah well... I'm looking over Ultimate Combat's final version of the Gunslinger is very similar to the Playtest 2 version. It's tweaked in a few placed, such as the Nimble ability at level 2, but overall the list of Deeds you get is largely unchanged, plus your Grit is still capped at your Wisdom bonus.
The end result is that the dynamism that I'd hoped to emerge with the Gunslinger just isn't there. In the first six levels there are very few Deeds that really come into play on a consistent basis during sessions.
The thing I was hoping to see the most was more mobility for the class. Having Shot on the Run baked into the class would have fit well with the nature of firearms, and it would have helped to better define the class' gritty dynamism. Unfortunately the Leaping Shot feat is still the angle taken to do this. It is a more spectacular ability, but the Grit cost and ending prone at the end of the action just knocks it out of contention as a serious feat.
The other thing that I'm rather surprised about is that the Rapid Reload feat is still something disconnected from the class. The absolute need to take this feat for the class to function at just a marginal level of performance really ought to have meant that you should be getting it for free at level 1. One of the mantras that came out of the playtests were that the class is "feat starved" and at least giving the class Rapid Reload would have been a way to acknowledge that criticism and help mitigate it the issue somewhat.
The class seems vastly under powered so far. I'm trying to figure out if I want to pump STR at all so I can melee as well since reloading won't always be possible. I'll have to go over all the options to make sure I'm not missing anything, but it's basically beta gunslinger except for more skill points.
The class seems vastly under powered so far. I'm trying to figure out if I want to pump STR at all so I can melee as well since reloading won't always be possible. I'll have to go over all the options to make sure I'm not missing anything, but it's basically beta gunslinger except for more skill points.
Gunslinger is far from underpowered, trust me. One of my players has been using the class's Round 2 version (apparently the same one as in the actual printing) since May, and it is really nasty. He just hit 7th level, so he has the ability to make any one target he wants completely flat-footed for the round. The party Rogues LOVE him for it. He has as much HP as the frontline Fighter and does comparable damage to the two handed weapon expert, given that alliterative attacks have a fairly good chance of missing.
He just got his Dead Shot ability as well, so once every two rounds, he'll be doing insane amounts of damage. If I'm not mistaken, both attacks made as part of Dead Shot are touch attacks if the Gunslinger is within range, so he has a better chance than the party Fighter to hit with his attacks, given that they're made against Touch AC. In four more levels when he gets Lightning Reload, he'll be able to basically unleash a full-attack Deadshopt against Touch AC every round, as reloading will be a free action.
As for the reloading thing, Deft Shootist is a very easy feat to qualify for, and it makes it so reloading your firearm doesn't provoke AoOs anymore.
The class seems vastly under powered so far. I'm trying to figure out if I want to pump STR at all so I can melee as well since reloading won't always be possible. I'll have to go over all the options to make sure I'm not missing anything, but it's basically beta gunslinger except for more skill points.Gunslinger is far from underpowered, trust me. One of my players has been using the class's Round 2 version (apparently the same one as in the actual printing) since May, and it is really nasty. He just hit 7th level, so he has the ability to make any one target he wants completely flat-footed for the round. The party Rogues LOVE him for it. He has as much HP as the frontline Fighter and does comparable damage to the two handed weapon expert, given that alliterative attacks have a fairly good chance of missing.
He just got his Dead Shot ability as well, so once every two rounds, he'll be doing insane amounts of damage. If I'm not mistaken, both attacks made as part of Dead Shot are touch attacks if the Gunslinger is within range, so he has a better chance than the party Fighter to hit with his attacks, given that they're made against Touch AC. In four more levels when he gets Lightning Reload, he'll be able to basically unleash a full-attack Deadshopt against Touch AC every round, as reloading will be a free action.
As for the reloading thing, Deft Shootist is a very easy feat to qualify for, and it makes it so reloading your firearm doesn't provoke AoOs anymore.
Did they change the prereqs for deft shootist? IIRC, they were dodge and mobility, for a class that probably won't be actively using mobility (the feat, not moving) very often.
From the spoiled information so far, the gunslinger is fine. No, the class should not have been a monk with guns or be forced to have shot on the run. Remember the the class is a variant of the fighter who focuses on groups of different firearms rather than other weapons.
From the spoiled information so far, the gunslinger is fine. No, the class should not have been a monk with guns or be forced to have shot on the run. Remember the the class is a variant of the fighter who focuses on groups of different firearms rather than other weapons.
Not exactly. The 'Slinger originally was a variant class. Now, its it's own full-fledged base. That's why it gets archetypes and whatnot. It has it's own style to it, not just a fighter with guns.
I am a sad panda to hear this is so.
Gunslinger is far from underpowered, trust me. One of my players has been using the class's Round 2 version (apparently the same one as in the actual printing) since May, and it is really nasty. He just hit 7th level, so he has the ability to make any one target he wants completely flat-footed for the round. The party Rogues LOVE him for it. He has as much HP as the frontline Fighter and does comparable damage to the two handed weapon expert, given that alliterative attacks have a fairly good chance of missing.
He just got his Dead Shot ability as well, so once every two rounds, he'll be doing insane amounts of damage. If I'm not mistaken, both attacks made as part of Dead Shot are touch attacks if the Gunslinger is within range, so he has a better chance than the party Fighter to hit with his attacks, given that they're made against Touch AC. In four more levels when he gets Lightning Reload, he'll be able to basically unleash a full-attack Deadshopt against Touch AC every round, as reloading will be a free action.
As for the reloading thing, Deft Shootist is a very easy feat to qualify for, and it makes it so reloading your firearm doesn't provoke AoOs anymore.
Any chance of you posting his build? That is usually more informative then "insane" amounts of damage ;)
wait once every two rounds? Doesn't really count if you have to divide it by 2 to get dpr.
No, the class should not have been a monk with guns...Show of hands? Who else now wants a "monk with guns" archetype?
+1
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Show of hands? Who else now wants a "monk with guns" archetype?Shouldn't be to difficult. A mechanism for bullet time would be nice. It reminds me of Jade Empire where I shot nearly every opponent with Mirabelle while using focus mode.
That thing was one of my favorite things in the game.
Well, that and the art direction. Everything else was pretty lacklustre.
Did anyone really expect much change after reading the Magus? Almost identical to the final playtest version on that one, too...
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Did anyone really expect much change after reading the Magus? Almost identical to the final playtest version on that one, too...
I'd say the magus got some pretty significant changes. Spellstrike, Pool Spell and Knowledge Pool were changed significantly. And unlike the gunslinger, the revised magus wasn't that broken.
Did anyone really expect much change after reading the Magus? Almost identical to the final playtest version on that one, too...I'd say the magus got some pretty significant changes. Spellstrike, Pool Spell and Knowledge Pool were changed significantly. And unlike the gunslinger, the revised magus wasn't that broken.
Fair enough... A question though- given that the designers seemed pretty adamant about the gun rules, isn't a broken Gunslinger kind of inevitable? (since loading time is one of the major complaints of 'brokenness') Maybe they could errata in Rapid Reload at lvl1?
Show of hands? Who else now wants a "monk with guns" archetype?Shouldn't be to difficult. A mechanism for bullet time would be nice. It reminds me of Jade Empire where I shot nearly every opponent with Mirabelle while using focus mode.
Genius guide to the Time Thief has your bullet time or as it is Bolt Time.
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Fair enough... A question though- given that the designers seemed pretty adamant about the gun rules, isn't a broken Gunslinger kind of inevitable? (since loading time is one of the major complaints of 'brokenness') Maybe they could errata in Rapid Reload at lvl1?Did anyone really expect much change after reading the Magus? Almost identical to the final playtest version on that one, too...I'd say the magus got some pretty significant changes. Spellstrike, Pool Spell and Knowledge Pool were changed significantly. And unlike the gunslinger, the revised magus wasn't that broken.
I have yet to see the final version, but Dead Shot ability that was supposed to fix the gunslinger didn't really work. It's more an issue of the class than of the rules for firearms.
Note that the gunslinger archetypes do provide some options regarding reloading.
E.g.
Musket Master
1st level - a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat
3rd level - As long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm. This deed replaces the utility shot deed.
13th level - a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm.
Thus you come to the following:
1st level - Reload time becomes one standard action (still screwed)
3rd level - Reload time becomes move action
11th level - You get one free reload from lightning reload
13th level - You will now only be using paper cartridges (no misfires anymore) so reload time becomes swift
So the first round of combat you can: Shoot, reload free, Shoot, reload swift, Shoot
Second round (and further): Reload swift, shoot,reload free, shoot
Not perfect but workable.
Don't know if something changed why is lighting reload only once per round now. My hard copy isnt in and no pdf access.
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Don't know if something changed why is lighting reload only once per round now. My hard copy isnt in and no pdf access.
Lightning Reload was once per round in the beta, too.
Cartridges plus Rapid Reload made reloading a one-handed firearm a free action, so unless cartridges have been changed, a musket master should be able to make full attacks at 13th level.
Don't know if something changed why is lighting reload only once per round now. My hard copy isnt in and no pdf access.Lightning Reload was once per round in the beta, too.
Cartridges plus Rapid Reload made reloading a one-handed firearm a free action, so unless cartridges have been changed, a musket master should be able to make full attacks at 13th level.
You are completely right. I thought move would become swift..... but it becomes free.
Standard reload times (early firearm)
It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early firearm.
Rapid Reload
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to move action (for one handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm).
Alchemical Cartridges
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard
action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action).
In that case, the musket master seems okay. Less attacks than a archer, but dexterity on damage (should be higher than strength for most ranged characters) and a better critical multiplier. And a good chance to hit with each attack within 80 feet (distance musket).
But that's just it. Not only would your musket master be par with your archer (not as good as a twinked out one, maybe) for "normal" combat purposes (i.e. Plant and Shoot), but he also gets a bunch of nifty, if situational abilities from grit etc. Basically, you take a standard musket-based fighter, replace w.training/a.training with grit and deeds, and replace bravery with nimble. That's neat, and I feel most would agree that there are worse fighter-archetypes. To be fair, you lose the ability to take specialization, and that hurts, but is made up for by the extra skill points/class skills/better saves (esp with good wis for Grit).
The gunslinger slings guns, maybe not as well as a fighter (just as monks have a hard time keeping up with fighters in unarmed combat), but, unlike the vast majority of fighters, is useful outside of combat, too.
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In that case, the musket master seems okay. Less attacks than a archer, but dexterity on damage (should be higher than strength for most ranged characters) and a better critical multiplier. And a good chance to hit with each attack within 80 feet (distance musket).But that's just it. Not only would your musket master be par with your archer (not as good as a twinked out one, maybe) for "normal" combat purposes (i.e. Plant and Shoot), but he also gets a bunch of nifty, if situational abilities from grit etc. Basically, you take a standard musket-based fighter, replace w.training/a.training with grit and deeds, and replace bravery with nimble. That's neat, and I feel most would agree that there are worse fighter-archetypes. To be fair, you lose the ability to take specialization, and that hurts, but is made up for by the extra skill points/class skills/better saves (esp with good wis for Grit).
The gunslinger slings guns, maybe not as well as a fighter (just as monks have a hard time keeping up with fighters in unarmed combat), but, unlike the vast majority of fighters, is useful outside of combat, too.
Yeah I'm trying to figure out if I just want to build a fighter with guns instead of a gunslinger. Grit is okay, but it doesn't seem to be super great. I'll play around with some numbers.
I want my build to be sorta like the pirates in Pirates of the Caribbean. The whole sword and pistol thing, but a normal gunslinger have to potentially pump STR, DEX, CON, and WIS, so I'm trying to figure out what can work.
This is for PFS, so level 12 cap and all. I doubt my DMs will allow gunslingers (they hate guns in fantasy).
Don't know if something changed why is lighting reload only once per round now. My hard copy isnt in and no pdf access.Lightning Reload was once per round in the beta, too.
Cartridges plus Rapid Reload made reloading a one-handed firearm a free action, so unless cartridges have been changed, a musket master should be able to make full attacks at 13th level.
I would say there is an alternative interpretation about Lightning Reload.
Reload or is using an alchemical cartridge (or
both), she can reload a single barrel of the
weapon as a free action each round instead.
Let me clarify, Lightning Reload says she can reload ONE barrel as a free action. Typically you receive unlimited free actions per turn (within reason). So logically she should be able to reload that same one barrel multiple times per round as free actions. What this wording prevents is reloading firearms with more than one barrel as a free action. For example, she could only reload one barrel of a double-barrel pistol or pepperbox. But I suppose she could simply load all of the barrels of a pepperbox with multiple free actions.
With rapid reload and Lightning Reload, a 11th level Gunslinger should be able to make full-attacks each round without using Alchemical rounds.
The gunslinger slings guns, maybe not as well as a fighter (just as monks have a hard time keeping up with fighters in unarmed combat), but, unlike the vast majority of fighters, is useful outside of combat, too.
Not sure how this works? It is possibly true when using pistols, but other than that I don't see how you can make a fighter work with a musket........ reload times seem too long. (Unless you get to more modern weapons maybe)
I would say there is an alternative interpretation about Lightning Reload.
Although it is an interpretation, I think it is not the correct one.
At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
I would interprete that it is only the swift action changing to a free action, not the once per round that is changing... but that is up to the designers of course.
Yeah, the pistolero has one...
At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm.
So that could work. Note that you do still need hands free to reload though.....
You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in
two hands to aim and shoot the firearm.
So reloading becomes difficult with TWF.
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Yeah, the pistolero has one...
At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm.
So that could work. Note that you do still need hands free to reload though.....
You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in
two hands to aim and shoot the firearm.So reloading becomes difficult with TWF.
It works with a Glove of Storing and a Weapon Cord. But that's a lot of stuff for 6 extra attacks, so in most cases, using just one and limiting yourself to just 6 attacks per round should be sufficient. You also avoid an additional -4 on attack rolls that way.
Yeah, the pistolero has one...
At 13th level, a pistolero never misfires with a one-handed firearm.
So that could work. Note that you do still need hands free to reload though.....
You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in
two hands to aim and shoot the firearm.So reloading becomes difficult with TWF.
There was developer talk during the beta saying that there'd be something for those that were going to TWF with guns, with regards to reloading. Anyone with the PDF know if there's some feats or archetype abilities that help with this?
I would say there is an alternative interpretation about Lightning Reload.Although it is an interpretation, I think it is not the correct one.
At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity.I would interprete that it is only the swift action changing to a free action, not the once per round that is changing... but that is up to the designers of course.
To me it is unclear whether the free action sentence is suppose to modify the swift action sentence or if it is a new point unto itself.
If it is meant to modify the swift action sentence, then the ability should read: "she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action once per round instead". The current wording of "as a free action each round instead" is unclear.
I've started a thread about this here.
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I don't have UC, but if I remember well, you can reload pistols as a free action with paper cartridges and a feat.
It was actually said by a developer that there would be "something" for two-weapon wielding gunslingers allowing them to reload without a free hand, but from what I could learn, this didn't made the final editing of UC, or it is hidden somewhere into the lines of the book...
Also, if you got two pistols, reloading as a free action and weapon cords, here is the normal per-round routine :
1) Fire your main weapon.
2) Free action reload your main weapon (off-hand free with a pistol tied with a weapon cord).
3) Fire your main weapon.
4) Free action reload your main weapon.
(Rinse and repeat until no more primary attacks.)
5) Free action drop your main weapon, tied with a weapon cord.
6) Swift action draw your off-hand weapon.
7) Fire your off-hand weapon.
8) Free action reload your off-hand weapon.
9) Fire your off-hand weapon.
(Repeat until no more attack. Use off-hand as your main weapon during next round, and use your swift action to get back to your real main weapon.)
Just change the fluff if you prefer the idea of shooting with two guns at once instead of one after the other.
So, if it works like this, you CAN use TWF with pistols. It needs some items and feats though.