I knew the rogue was carrying a cannon around in a portable hole, which was interesting but I found out last night he's been planning to sneak attack with it.
Now I'm pretty comfortable telling my player that this is is not possible under our house rules, but it would be nice to have something in the published rules to back me up.
Does anyone know of a cut and dried rules argument to back up what I presume to be common sense here? Failing this your rationalizations for or against, or comments are of course welcome.
Has he been watching the Gamers?
All joking aside i dont know of a rules reason why he can't what book are you getting your cannons from it might help set a precedence for why not.
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I thought that siege weapons made attacks against squares, not the creatures in the squares, but then I don't really know much about cannons. I'd say sneak attacks are not possible on attacks with siege weapons, even if they somehow manage to get a cannon within 30ft of a Dex-bonus-denied target.
Of course, I don't really have any solid rules handy to quote, so that's all just my fancy-smancy opinion.
Well, I would say that the description of sneak attack gives a very strong RAI case for this:
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to
pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature
with concealment.
Something that large simply cannot pick out a vital spot. Though +1 to Liongold's last statement.
Depends on what you consider vital within 30ft i would say you could aim for the head.
But thats why i was hoping for a book reference on the cannon would make this easier.
it would be nice to have something in the published rules to back me up.
by RAW, it's based on the target.
If the cannon directly targets creatures, then anything within 30 feet (more if the sniper archetype) that is targeted by the cannon is fair game for the purpose of sneak attack.
If the cannon doesn't target particular creatures, and instead targets something else (like the square occupied) then sneak attack does not apply to any creature targeting that square.
I don't know how you ruled Cannons to work, but that should help.
I'd also suggest that you talk out with your player how/why he chose to do such a thing, he did invest 20k gold just so he could do some silly fun.
At the very least, let him have his money back.
You do realize you can sneak attack with a blunderbuss right? at least the cannon shot is aimable
it would be nice to have something in the published rules to back me up.
I'd also suggest that you talk out with your player how/why he chose to do such a thing, he did invest 20k gold just so he could do some silly fun.
Well the cannon was treasure from a past adventure, they looted it from a pirate ship. If he doesn't use it to sneak attack I suspect they'll mount it on a ship of their own.
I think the motivation here is bragging rights. We're using cannons right from inner sea guide, though the rules are a bit sparse.
ahh havent got that one yet... im newly poor.
i think the key is vital spot.
You mean like aiming the cannon into the weak parts of their armor in order to not only bludgeon them but actually hit flesh? Sounds like a vital area too me. Not that vital spot is a defined term at all, which means by RAW yes you can sneak attack with a cannon.
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Ok, read that section of the ISWG, and came to the following conclusion:
Because Cannons are basically considered ranged weapons with a couple of additional rules added to them (3 round load time, 10 black powder cartradges required) they act as normal ranged weapons do.
This means that if a Rogue manages to attack within 30 (More if a sniper) feat with a cannon, it can sneak attack so long as it meets all other conditions. This is of course based on RAW, and you have the ability to rule as you wish.
The stuff that people were mentioning about "vital spot" is irrelevant, mostly because it's fluff used to describe sneak attack, and also because a cannon ball never really gets much larger than 7 inches in diameter, meaning it's still possible to hit a "vital Spot."
I will mention that the rules for using a cannon make them very unwieldy, and so giving the rogue an opportunity to totally gib something with it once or twice might prove to be fun.
Also beware, catapults may be in ultimate combat.
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I knew the rogue was carrying a cannon around in a portable hole, which was interesting but I found out last night he's been planning to sneak attack with it.
Now I'm pretty comfortable telling my player that this is is not possible under our house rules, but it would be nice to have something in the published rules to back me up.
Does anyone know of a cut and dried rules argument to back up what I presume to be common sense here? Failing this your rationalizations for or against, or comments are of course welcome.
Depending on how awesome it is when he does it, I'd honestly let him get a sneak attack and not worry about it. I mean, if he manages to set up an ambush with a cannon the shock value alone is worth the extra damage.
After that, have a chat with him and let him know that you let it fly the once because it was a cool idea that he pulled off well, but that you don't think cannons are precise enough for them to be able to deliver a sneak attack so it was a one-time thing.
He gets a cool moment that he's saved up for, the players get a great story. Everyone wins.
As Far as picking out a vital spot the size of the cannon ball and how big the enemy is are the two most important aspects imo. It should be no problem picking out a vital point on a huge or bigger monster even with a siege weapon. Though I suppose it is still possible on smaller targets.
*hehe the gamers*
I would say that it would depend on the siege weapon. A catapult or cannon would probally not be able to sneak attack but something like a scorpion or ballista could, given circumstances.
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Honestly, there's nothing in the rules to stop it (as long as the cannon targets creatures rather than squares). If you're trying to nerf it because it just doesn't feel right, then that's your decision, but if he fulfills the conditions for Sneak Attack with a cannon (which I can't imagine being an easy task), then I would urge you to let him do it. It's not going to unbalance the game.
Anymore than letting the players carry siege weapons in portable holes.
^_^
Well, yes. That is what I meant to emphasize. :-P
Your now sitting in a room that looks like a vat of beef stroganoff just exploded.
Honestly, nothing in the rules stops him and I wouldn't so no. It be extremely hard to set up a Sneak Attack with a Siege Weapon. Now, would I let him snipe with it using the stealth rules, no.
If you can sneak attack a pixie with.. anything, you should be able to sneak attack a huge creature, or bigger, with a siege weapon if you could somehow manage to get that set up put together.
Cartigan, what about sneak attacking a pixie with a siege weapon?
;-D
Isn't a medium sized weapon a siege weapon for a pixie anyway?
if a cannon does an attack against a person, let him have sneak attack.
I doubt it will be a very effective weapon.
As mentioned above a gargantuan thief attacking a pixie with a gargantuan two-handed hammer still can "sneak attack".
This is however a lenient interpreatation. A too strict one could prevent the dagger of the halfling from reaching a critical spot of a large creature.
Just let him have this one as it is no munchkinism.
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I think a bigger question is how does he get the cannon in or out of the hole? Or if you see it more like a bag of holding with things swimming around in the extradimensional space, how would the cannon stay loaded? Even if it could be loaded at all times there is a lot of danger that it would go off accidentally. Cannons are not easy things to load, are ridiculously heavy and need to stay on a level plane to be fired. Several marks against in my books.
But yes if the rogue happened to find a cannon pointed directly at an unaware enemy he could probably sneak attack him.
I think a bigger question is how does he get the cannon in or out of the hole?
Depends on the size of the cannon, they came in sizes from 3 feet long to about 7 feet long for a tall mast ship. A large ship might have a dozen (despite what you see on Pirates of the Carribean). A 4 foot cannon would be heavy, but you could pick it up and move it if you had a couple of guys, or one big burly guy. It's not like it weighs a ton, just several hundred pounds.
Or if you see it more like a bag of holding with things swimming around in the extradimensional space, how would the cannon stay loaded?
Wadding. Blackpowder goes in, then the ball, then a bit of cloth wadding to keep the ball in place. Ships are on the sea and they roll, the wadding keeps the ball in place. Same for black powder rifles, they use a bit of cotton cloth for wadding to keep the bullet from rolling around.
Even if it could be loaded at all times there is a lot of danger that it would go off accidentally.
How? It's not like they're using nitroglycerin to fire the thing, it's black powder. Unless you put a fire pit inside the bag with it, it's not going to 'accidently' go off. Heck, even if you did put a fire pit in it, all that stuff is stored by itself in an extradimensional place, not touching or smashing into each other, otherwise your potions would get smashed by your extra set of full plate.
Cannons are not easy things to load, are ridiculously heavy and need to stay on a level plane to be fired. Several marks against in my books.
Depends on the size, again. A 2 or 3 foot cannon was a man-portable anti-emplacement weapon. It took a few seconds to swab out the barrel (cool it down after firing), drop in a bag of premeasured powder (after ripping a hole in the top), then drop the ball in, and ram the wadding home to seal it tight. Then shove a fuse in and light it. Teams would do large cannons about every 10 seconds.
I think a bigger question is how does he get the cannon in or out of the hole?Depends on the size of the cannon, they came in sizes from 3 feet long to about 7 feet long for a tall mast ship. A large ship might have a dozen (despite what you see on Pirates of the Carribean).
A Ship of the Line had roughly a crapton of cannons. Two dozen a side on the early models.
One more voice chiming in on the whole cannon sneak attack being legit by RAI and RAW.
If an attack, specifically an attack roll, is made in a situation qualifying for sneak attack, then it gets sneak attack. You can houserule otherwise, but be wary of opening yourself up to counter-arguments, like "No way the titan can get sneak attack, his hammer is bigger than me!"
Heck, a ballista is just a huge heavy crossbow that disregards the normal size/hand effort ratio.
How? It's not like they're using nitroglycerin to fire the thing, it's black powder. Unless you put a fire pit inside the bag with it, it's not going to 'accidently' go off.
Contrary to popular opinion, nitroglycerin is very stable if the leftover acids from its manufacture have been neutralized. All recorded accidents have been a result of improperly stored or manufactured material, or partially frozen nitroglycerin slush, which is far more sensitive than both room temperature nitroglycerin (which actually extinguishes matches that are dropped into it) and frozen nitroglycerin, which is completely inert.
Liquid nitroglycerin even resists potassium permanganate, which causes ordinary glycerin to burst into flames on contact./threadjack
Let him, it's a ranged weapon. A vital area is the head, you can aim at that.
I knew the rogue was carrying a cannon around in a portable hole, which was interesting but I found out last night he's been planning to sneak attack with it.
Now I'm pretty comfortable telling my player that this is is not possible under our house rules, but it would be nice to have something in the published rules to back me up.
Does anyone know of a cut and dried rules argument to back up what I presume to be common sense here? Failing this your rationalizations for or against, or comments are of course welcome.
I say yes one time for bragging rights but make it a special circumstance not something repeatable
Think about it this way. If somehow a character manages (regardless of the mundane/magical means employed) to move, ready and fire a siege weapon at another creature less than 30 feet away and furthermore succeeds in striking that creature, which seems more likely: that the creature will suffer only a moderate amount of damage and survive to continue fighting or that it'll suffer a horrendous amount of damage and die instantly?
Allowing the rogue to add his sneak attack damage to the siege weapon's damage makes the common-sense outcome more likely to occur; so it's a good thing. ;)
How? It's not like they're using nitroglycerin to fire the thing, it's black powder. Unless you put a fire pit inside the bag with it, it's not going to 'accidently' go off.Contrary to popular opinion, nitroglycerin is very stable if the leftover acids from its manufacture have been neutralized. All recorded accidents have been a result of improperly stored or manufactured material, or partially frozen nitroglycerin slush, which is far more sensitive than both room temperature nitroglycerin (which actually extinguishes matches that are dropped into it) and frozen nitroglycerin, which is completely inert.
Liquid nitroglycerin even resists potassium permanganate, which causes ordinary glycerin to burst into flames on contact./threadjack
*grin*
True enough, but it's still the only primitive explosive that's well known and can be unstable absent an ignition source. :) At least, the only one I know of. I suppose a nitrogen enriched pile of horse fecal matter might be more unstable, but it's hard to get that imagery across on the internet without going into long explanations of fertilizer bombs and how they can be hard to predict, etc. Nitro, even if it's mostly hollywood doings, is readily understood to be unstable absent an ignition source.
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... Overcome with internet angst...but, but, but I am a professional historian.. with re-enactment experience.. and extensive training in portable hole usage...oh never mind. Nerd rage ended. ;-)
We all have our understanding of history and have no choice but to make a few assumptions when faced with a fantasy scenario. You make some fair points but I think you are being a little too forgiving of the rogue in question who is trying to sneak up on someone, pull out a cannon and blast them all without them noticing or quickly enough that they were flatfooted. This would not be easy to pull off without some serious magical or very circumstantial advantages, none of which were noted in the OP.
I think a bigger question is how does he get the cannon in or out of the hole?Depends on the size of the cannon, they came in sizes from 3 feet long to about 7 feet long for a tall mast ship. A large ship might have a dozen (despite what you see on Pirates of the Carribean). A 4 foot cannon would be heavy, but you could pick it up and move it if you had a couple of guys, or one big burly guy. It's not like it weighs a ton, just several hundred pounds.
Hmmm yes I do know that cannons could come in smaller sizes (even hand cannons existed of course) although the weight would depend a lot on the era they are based on, material etc. I guess I assumed that Pathfinder would use the fantasy standard cannon most people would picture from the movies unless otherwise noted. If the OP had said it was a miniature or very small sized cannon, sure, but then it would probably not be referred to as a "siege weapon".
Also as you say it weighs at least several hundred pounds. How on earth would he pull that out of the portable hole without some help and without attracting a lot of attention?
Or if you see it more like a bag of holding with things swimming around in the extradimensional space, how would the cannon stay loaded?
Wadding. Blackpowder goes in, then the ball, then a bit of cloth wadding to keep the ball in place. Ships are on the sea and they roll, the wadding keeps the ball in place. Same for black powder rifles, they use a bit of cotton cloth for wadding to keep the bullet from rolling around.
Moving from side to side they would not be likely to dump their wadding as on a ship, but if they are floating in extradimensional space (upside down etc.) they probably would. Depends how you picture those items working I guess.
Even if it could be loaded at all times there is a lot of danger that it would go off accidentally.
How? It's not like they're using nitroglycerin to fire the thing, it's black powder. Unless you put a fire pit inside the bag with it, it's not going to 'accidently' go off. Heck, even if you did put a fire pit in it, all that stuff is stored by itself in an extradimensional place, not touching or smashing into each other, otherwise your potions would get smashed by your extra set of full plate.
I do personally picture a portable hole as being a little different with a pile of your stuff appearing piled in the bottom when you lay it down but ymmv. As far as cannons accidentally going off, this was easier than you think. At the 19th century fort where I run historical tours (with much more advanced weaponry) the accidental discharge of the guns was one of the most common causes of death. No nitro required, just a sharp object creating an unwelcome spark.
Do portable holes contain oxygen? I suppose you could argue that without oxygen a spark could not form in any case.
Depends on the size, again. A 2 or 3 foot cannon was a man-portable anti-emplacement weapon. It took a few seconds to swab out the barrel (cool it down after firing), drop in a bag of premeasured powder (after ripping a hole in the top), then drop the ball in, and ram the wadding home to seal it tight. Then shove a fuse in and...
Cannons are not easy things to load, are ridiculously heavy and need to stay on a level plane to be fired. Several marks against in my books.
Ok I will revise my original response then. If the rogue was using a miniature cannon which he was well trained in firing, had a friend to help stabilize it while pulling it out of the portable hole and/or was exceptionally strong, and was invisible and silenced, perhaps he could pull this off.
As long as no nitro was involved. ;-)
And if he could do all that, yes he should definitely get his sneak attack bonus.
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The bigger the weapon, the more vital spots you can hit at once :P
We always had items in a portable hole stay where they were placed when closed, so if you opened the hole on a wall and wheeled a cannon in, it would be right there next time you open it... I would assume he would jump in to fire, not move the cannon out. That, plus a camo screen and a silence spell could be nasty :)
Hmmm you win the internets Sir, this almost sounds plausible enough to convince me.
... Overcome with internet angst...but, but, but I am a professional historian.. with re-enactment experience.. and extensive training in portable hole usage...oh never mind. Nerd rage ended. ;-)
We all have our understanding of history and have no choice but to make a few assumptions when faced with a fantasy scenario. You make some fair points but I think you are being a little too forgiving of the rogue in question who is trying to sneak up on someone, pull out a cannon and blast them all without them noticing or quickly enough that they were flatfooted. This would not be easy to pull off without some serious magical or very circumstantial advantages, none of which were noted in the OP.
Ah, ok, I can agree with this. I was not advocating that he could sneak up on someone with the cannon. I was considering if he could set up an ambush scenario and still use the cannon, and I think he could. Set up in a tree-line, waiting for the ambush, especially if the BBEG is, say, an anti-paladin, I would want as many dice as possible on the guy. :)
And, there are such things as Sniper Goggles for vastly increasing your sneak attack range. :)
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Ah, ok, I can agree with this. I was not advocating that he could sneak up on someone with the cannon. I was considering if he could set up an ambush scenario and still use the cannon, and I think he could. Set up in a tree-line, waiting for the ambush, especially if the BBEG is, say, an anti-paladin, I would want as many dice as possible on the guy. :)
And, there are such things as Sniper Goggles for vastly increasing your sneak attack range. :)
That's just crazy enough to work. Yeah if he had time and help to set up and could blast the anti-paladin riding by, for sure that should work. And would probably be entertaining for everyone.
Now the catapult on the other hand...
:)