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...I thought of a paladin who would refuse to take any rational life intentionally, on the conviction that only the divine could rightly take life. Man, how the party would love that guy.Actually, I could really enjoy that kind of Paladin. Walk around with a leather wrapped cudgel to do non-lethal damage. If I detect evil, use my smite evil (which is the divine god doing the damage). Otherwise, I beat things into submission...:)
I'd like to think this is how Cuthbert the Cudgel got his start.
Ah, helping the poor for a cleric of Cuthbert... I can see it now...
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Sitting during the sermon at Mass today, I thought of a paladin who would refuse to take any rational life intentionally, on the conviction that only the divine could rightly take life. Man, how the party would love that guy.Actually, I could really enjoy that kind of Paladin. Walk around with a leather wrapped cudgel to do non-lethal damage. If I detect evil, use my smite evil (which is the divine god doing the damage). Otherwise, I beat things into submission, and then let the law do it's job and punish them. I'm still just as effective at knocking things out of a fight, I just don't slaughter everything I fight.
I would carry a great sword, though, for evil outsiders. :)
Don't forget the options of baleful polymorph and be a tree! Though that raises some fantastic moral issues all their own.
Also, merciful weapons and Merciful Spell!
That's the one. A friend began reading the DMs email out loud in that voice, and it fit soooo well.Well, drat, and I was getting geared up to hear another "bad player" horror story. There should be more of those, they are entertaining. :p
Oh man, That Guy.
Part of me misses the GM/Player horror stories threads, but another part is glad to avoid the misery porn. It's like a scab that you know you shouldn't pick, but you also know there's sweet sweet candy inside...
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Sitting during the sermon at Mass today, I thought of a paladin who would refuse to take any rational life intentionally, on the conviction that only the divine could rightly take life. Man, how the party would love that guy.Actually, I could really enjoy that kind of Paladin. Walk around with a leather wrapped cudgel to do non-lethal damage. If I detect evil, use my smite evil (which is the divine god doing the damage). Otherwise, I beat things into submission, and then let the law do it's job and punish them. I'm still just as effective at knocking things out of a fight, I just don't slaughter everything I fight.
I would carry a great sword, though, for evil outsiders. :)
:)
I'd like to think this is how Cuthbert the Cudgel got his start.
That could be a very interesting character. He could also be very passive in his mannerisms and use a lot of healing.
A cop-out by the way is to avoid taking responsibility for an action, fulfilling a duty or meeting expectations; A paladin of this nature would be doing none of this. He would still be fulfilling his duties, just not the way most would expect.
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A cop-out by the way is to avoid taking responsibility for an action, fulfilling a duty or meeting expectations; A paladin of this nature would be doing none of this. He would still be fulfilling his duties, just not the way most would expect.
You'll notice I didn't bother responding? :) There are certain people who will insist that they are the only ones that are right, that any other method of playing the game is wrongbadfun, and you are wrongbaddumb for doing it any other way than theirs. My personal belief on that issue is, play the game however you want, and just don't play in games that people run in a manner you find objectionable. I don't like hack and slash, but if people enjoy that, that's fine. It grates on my nerves personally. Anyway, yeah, there's a lot of ways to run a paladin other than lawful stupid.
And to Mikaze, yeah, I didn't bother saying it, but the Paladin can use his weapon bond to put Merciful on his weapon quite early, if I remember correctly, and it would be totally appropriate for such a character.
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Strangely enough, I am a One True Way-ist in that I believe the DM should have the final say, all hurt feelings aside. Or at least I've been called that before, in both games I have run and games I have been a part of. I've yet to encounter someone just up and walking away from the table, however.
I SECOND Gailbraithe rant!
Well, we're headed for the lock full speed now.
Possibly, more likely though, certain posts will just get deleted.
Gail, quick question. If orcs are Always Chaotic Evil, can you really call them evil? Since they have no choice but to be evil, due to hard programming as such? What did you come up with to explain this?
Hey ToZ, I know it wasn't directed at me, but I would really like to answer this one.
Now, I'll preface it by saying I do not do this in my world, but, if I were going to have an Always <alignment> race in my world, here's how I would do it.
Evil : Regardless of the law/chaos axis, always evil races would be spawn of outsiders. That is, demons, devils, daemons. They would be born not as half-fiends, they would instead involve taking mortals and infusing them with pure essence of Evil (similar to Darkspawn in Dragon Age). So, they'd be a race of creatures created by taking other creatures and infusing them with pure elemental evil. There would be no way to restore them, their souls and minds would have been destroyed by the taint of evil. They would literally have had their souls merged with an evil outsider, forever making them native outsiders that were infused with pure evil.
Good : Purely good creatures would have been infused by a Good outsider. That is, fully and willingly merged with Good outsiders, at the soul level, in order to fight the evil in the above evil example. Similar to Anders from Dragon Age II, but without the corrupting influence that turned him into Vengeance instead of Justice.
In both cases, neither side would be capable of committing an Evil or Good act (as the case may be). So their alignment would be locked at all times, unchanging, static.
Isn't free will required for your actions to be moral/immoral? Thus, your outsiders and by extension the corrupted creatures are unable to be called good/evil because they have no free will to choose one or the other?
In the real world, yes. However, in PF Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are physical forces. I kind of liken them to exotic particles in the real world, nobody really sees them on a day to day basis (when was the last time you saw a quark, or a gluon?), but they exist, and they are bound up into reality (in fact, you could say reality is bulit off of them).
So just like an Angel is Good, and a Devil is Evil, so would these conglomerate creatures be Good or Evil. Basically, the host would give up it's mortality and it's ability for free will. It could still make decisions, but those decisions would be hard-wired to it's alignment. A good amalgam could no more murder an innocent than an evil amalgam could sacrifice itself to save an innocent, unless doing so furthered the cause of Evil, of course. So basically, evil has it easier, it can do fake good deeds, but good would not be able to do fake evil deeds. At least, not easily.
Basically, to me, if you are going to have a race that is Always <Alignment>, you have to remove free will, otherwise, they are not Always <Blah>. Any other reading, in that something can have free will but be evil no matter what is like saying 2 + 2 = Pi.
IBTL!
stuffDude, you need to step away and calm down. It's the freaking internet, try not to take things so damn personally. Unless you develop thicker skin, you might just wanna avoid message boards altogether.
There's a thought.
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Isn't free will required for your actions to be moral/immoral? Thus, your outsiders and by extension the corrupted creatures are unable to be called good/evil because they have no free will to choose one or the other?
None of the characters in my games have free will. They're all controlled by fat dudes swilling Mountain Dew.
Isn't free will required for your actions to be moral/immoral? Thus, your outsiders and by extension the corrupted creatures are unable to be called good/evil because they have no free will to choose one or the other?None of the characters in my games have free will. They're all controlled by fat dudes swilling Mountain Dew.
LOL
None of the characters in my games have free will. They're all controlled by fat dudes swilling Mountain Dew.Hey, I don't drink Mountain Dew anymore. It's Ginger Beer or Water now (or occasionally Fanta). So there! :)-
Wanna Fanta?
Dont'cha Wanna?
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Gail, quick question. If orcs are Always Chaotic Evil, can you really call them evil? Since they have no choice but to be evil, due to hard programming as such? What did you come up with to explain this?
In my game Good and Evil are objective, present forces in the universe. Orcs are evil because they were created by the evil gods as a curse on mankind. Humans (and demihumans) are good because they were created by good gods to guide the world towards its transcendent destiny.
I suppose in some sense that Orcs could be consider blameless for their actions on an individual level, because they have no conscience and no capacity to understand concepts like community and society.
But the point isn't the orcs are evil people, its that they are evil things. You're thinking of them as bad people, but that's not what they are. They're a force of nature. The unrelenting horde, the cancer of the world, the dark scourge, the raging storm, the curse of the wild. They're like a rotting in the world, and the only way to deal with them is to cleanse with fire.
If you got the pure Fight Evil path, you start with orcs and beastmen, work up through ogres and giants, move on to evil magical beasts, then graduate to demons and devils, and finally maybe kill a dark demigod. And behind them all is Evil.
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Isn't free will required for your actions to be moral/immoral? Thus, your outsiders and by extension the corrupted creatures are unable to be called good/evil because they have no free will to choose one or the other?None of the characters in my games have free will. They're all controlled by fat dudes swilling Mountain Dew.
WHERE'S THE MOUNTAIN DEW!? CAN I HAVE SOME MOUNTAIN DEW?
YES, IT'S IN THE FRIDGE!HEY ARE THERE ANY GIRLS THERE?
As for the topic, I think the point of the "outsider/corrupted" thing was that evil for the most part is a learned thing. Now granted, there are in real life parents that are just awesome parents and their kid grows up to be a serial killer, but then that guy has mental problems, he's not been raised to be a serial killer. On the other hand, take Drow. Most Drow are evil. They are raised to be evil, so you end up with the opposite of "Great parenting". Then, despite all attempts to turn the kid into a psychopathic killer, you end up with a kid that wants to worship some human nature chick and wield dual scimitars. THerefore, the only way to 100% say ALL of this race is EVIL or ALL of this race is GOOD is to have them supernaturally influenced.
4E KILLED GARY GYGAX!
As for the topic, I think the point of the "outsider/corrupted" thing was that evil for the most part is a learned thing. Now granted, there are in real life parents that are just awesome parents and their kid grows up to be a serial killer, but then that guy has mental problems, he's not been raised to be a serial killer. On the other hand, take Drow. Most Drow are evil. They are raised to be evil, so you end up with the opposite of "Great parenting". Then, despite all attempts to turn the kid into a psychopathic killer, you end up with a kid that wants to worship some human nature chick and wield dual scimitars. THerefore, the only way to 100% say ALL of this race is EVIL or ALL of this race is GOOD is to have them supernaturally influenced.
Give that man/woman/creature/construct/spirit/whatever a cupie doll! :)
WHERE'S THE MOUNTAIN DEW!? CAN I HAVE SOME MOUNTAIN DEW?
YES, IT'S IN THE FRIDGE!
HEY ARE THERE ANY GIRLS THERE?
Only if you're playing Cthulu, and, you likely aren't going to be happy about the state they are in, unless you're a psychotic cultist.
Isn't free will required for your actions to be moral/immoral? Thus, your outsiders and by extension the corrupted creatures are unable to be called good/evil because they have no free will to choose one or the other?None of the characters in my games have free will. They're all controlled by fat dudes swilling Mountain Dew.WHERE'S THE MOUNTAIN DEW!? CAN I HAVE SOME MOUNTAIN DEW?
YES, IT'S IN THE FRIDGE!
HEY ARE THERE ANY GIRLS THERE?As for the topic, I think the point of the "outsider/corrupted" thing was that evil for the most part is a learned thing. Now granted, there are in real life parents that are just awesome parents and their kid grows up to be a serial killer, but then that guy has mental problems, he's not been raised to be a serial killer. On the other hand, take Drow. Most Drow are evil. They are raised to be evil, so you end up with the opposite of "Great parenting". Then, despite all attempts to turn the kid into a psychopathic killer, you end up with a kid that wants to worship some human nature chick and wield dual scimitars. THerefore, the only way to 100% say ALL of this race is EVIL or ALL of this race is GOOD is to have them supernaturally influenced.
Hm. Interesting.
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And to Mikaze, yeah, I didn't bother saying it, but the Paladin can use his weapon bond to put Merciful on his weapon quite early, if I remember correctly, and it would be totally appropriate for such a character.
Now for the debate on what merciful weapons look like when they're used. ;)
Damn, now I can't stop thinking about paladins of Shelyn again.
"I am going to love and tolerate the @#$% out of you."
And to Mikaze, yeah, I didn't bother saying it, but the Paladin can use his weapon bond to put Merciful on his weapon quite early, if I remember correctly, and it would be totally appropriate for such a character.Now for the debate on what merciful weapons look like when they're used. ;)
Damn, now I can't stop thinking about paladins of Shelyn again.
"I am going to love and tolerate the @#$% out of you."
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Holy 4chan /tg/ herp derp ... who devoured the intellect out of a topic on moral relativism for wholesale slaughter in this thread? Everyone knows that retail genocide is serious business. Especially when done efficiently. And contracted to the highest bidder.
Right next to winning on the Internet by getting gruff with those billy goats crossing the bridge of absolute values.
Irrational integers are carbon waste products.
Holy 4chan /tg/ herp derp ... who devoured the intellect out of a topic on moral relativism for wholesale slaughter in this thread? Everyone knows that retail genocide is serious business. Especially when done efficiently. And contracted to the highest bidder.
Right next to winning on the Internet by getting gruff with those billy goats crossing the bridge of absolute values.
Irrational integers are carbon waste products.
We all knew when we saw the title that the alignment-type crap would rear its ugly head eventually and bring the personal attack crapstorm along with it. I got what fun(see above) and insight(TOZ-KOS!!!) from the thread that I could and ignored the rest.
Isn't free will required for your actions to be moral/immoral? Thus, your outsiders and by extension the corrupted creatures are unable to be called good/evil because they have no free will to choose one or the other?None of the characters in my games have free will. They're all controlled by fat dudes swilling Mountain Dew.
Here's the real question: Are they drinking retro Mountain Dew or new-fangled Mountain Dew? Don't pretend like they're the same underneath the cosmetics.
E-4 KILLED GARY GYGAX!
Sure. Blame the droid. It's our lot in life.
Sure. Blame the droid. It's our lot in life.
Life is long and dangerous for your kind.
As it should be.
I think this thread has gone on long enough.
Edit: Posts have been removed.