No metagaming involved. Greater earth elementals just power attack all the time, because it's almost always more damage. It's the same reason characters in this thread (should) just power attack all the time.
Actually, against most of the people in my party, power attacking would be less damage for the earth elemental. I was probably the only one power attacking would have made sense against.
20% miss chance is better than 22 AC.In a narrow set of circumstances. "My character is almost as good as the bare minimum" when you are obviously making deep defensive sacrifices is not acceptable. "Magic items will be prioritized for doing damage without adversely affecting survivability" is one of the core rules, and it's there to prevent glass cannon gimmick builds. You ignored it and made a glass cannon gimmick build.
It's not any more glass than a 22AC is. He's still a barbarian with plenty of HP, and whether he has 22AC or 20% miss chance, he's still getting hit just as often.
Elite array simulates how MAD classes suffer from not being able to have multiple high stats easily and also simulates how single-stat classes underperform a bit under very generous point buys or lucky die rolling. Also, 2h fighter (the core of your barbarian build) is one of the best performers under limited stats, because it has lots of natural accuracy and relatively few attacks; TWFers, natural attackers, monks, and whatnot benefit more from 18 base str than a 2h fighter does.
Actually, the 2H fighter is one of the worst classes under limited stats. One of the core features it gets, 2x str damage to attacks, is less effective at low strength. To illustrate my point, imagine you had said we had to use stats of 10 and no magic items. The 2H fighter would not do any more damage than the ordinary fighter. The 2H fighter's damage advantage scales away from the ordinary fighter as strength increases.
Nothing about your character hinges on 18 str; it just gets more to-hit and damage from it. You could have easily made your character with elite array, and then we could have compared its DPR to other characters on an even footing. You just didn't.
The first one I submitted was close to the same thing, only without being a reach build and without the ability to sunder manufactured weapons. I used the elite array on that one. DPR should essentially be the same for this one if you switch to a weapon that's good for crits, get rid of some of the intimidate feats, and get improved critical. In fact, I think it should be exactly the same. (Correction: the first one also had a bite attack and was half-orc. The only reason I switched to human in the other was to make room for intimidate feats, which I didn't include in DPR, so switch my second build to half-orc too while making the other changes I listed and it would then be the same DPR I listed on the first one).
I'd be interested to see how an Arcane Duelist stacks up against a Magus (of any variety). Being able to Haste / Good Hope / Inspire Courage in one round would be very useful, especially with the two feats that give +1 to IC buffs.
Backslice is not in any sense a "core ability." Backslice looks really strong on paper, but it's not all that strong when the rubber meets the road.
It's not very strong when you have middling stats. When you're able to maximize one stat, it's very strong. For instance, at STR 30, attainable as a Barb/2HF by level 10 when you're running point buy, it's 5 more damage on all attacks but the first. When at level 11 you can have 4 attacks with haste, and you can reliably have haste on you with boots, that's a good bit of extra damage per round. It's still worthwhile at level 10 with haste, increasing DPR by ~10 compared to a normal fighter. I agree that at level 7-10 without haste it is unimpressive, as it only affects 1/2 of your attacks.
To illustrate this, in the very best case at level 10 (an AC -infinity opponent, a critty Keen/IC weapon, strength 26), Backslice is only worth 4.94 DPR.
That's because you're specifically using level 10/no haste and you're looking at 26 STR. With haste and 30STR, it's more than 10 DPR. My build no longer has a reliable way to get haste every round he needs it, but it's definitely not an uncommon buff to have at this level. At level 11, of course, there's a 3rd attack anyway.
For lower STR values and less attacks per round, backswing appears less useful. It becomes more useful as STR goes up and number of attacks goes up.
Its impact is completely dwarfed by usual +hit/+dam effect of increased str. A fighter with the APG two-handed fighter archetype only gets a tiny bit more out of high strength than any 2h martial combatant, and much less than any TWFing/natural attacking build due to their greater benefit from accuracy and damage.
That tiny bit adds up as str goes up and up.
In fact, that's the whole point of this thread, to break down what feels strong and see what actually turns into extra damage in practical play.
I don't think elite array can be defined as practical play and point buy can be called impractical. Point buy is probably at least as common. If I was playing elite array, I probably would not play a barbarian/2h fighter, as he is strongly dependent on one stat and hardly benefits from a balanced array.
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I don't think elite array can be defined as practical play and point buy can be called impractical. Point buy is probably at least as common. If I was playing elite array, I probably would not play a barbarian/2h fighter, as he is strongly dependent on one stat and hardly benefits from a balanced array.
My suggestion: rather than try to convince MiB to change the parameters, formulate what you think are reasonable restrictions and post a thread of your own.
I think there's value at examining what's possible with the elite array as the baseline; I think there's also value in doing it separately with something like 20 or 25 point buy, just because there are builds that I think are pretty good under those parameters that aren't workable under the elite array.
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Yar!
...dare I say it: let's not be so competitive? Text doesn't convey inflections or intent, so I may be completely wrong, but some recent posts read to be very defensive. Rather than trying to "win", lets just have some clean math fun by posting some well balanced/practical DPR builds.
Again, perhaps it's just me, but I felt that this new incarnation of the DPR "Olympics" was in part due to the expanded material that is Paizo published under the Pathfinder rules that is now available (and I'm looking forward to the addition of Ultimate Combat later this month). The baselines are still in place, but the materials permitted have grown. Different games have been added, new techniques are being learned... but steroids are still illegal.
Sure, I've used sources beyond the Core, APG, and UM... but I also called those out (as per the initial guidelines). I take no offence to the suggestion that it doesn't work as well as it should, that I should do this or that instead, or that I should bump up an inherent weakness (even at the expense of DPR). It's all part of seeing different ways to accomplish something on a uniform playing field.
Personally, I would love to see the Unnamed-half-elf-pouncing-synthesist’s and the Unnamed-barb-Fighter in Elite array, no Haste, and with more resources spent on other areas as AMiB is asking. It would be nice to see, both for being able to more adequately compare, and simply to satisfy my own curiosity. Also, Elite Array, as has been said, is what encounter design for this game (Pathfinder) were originally based upon. I usually don’t like speaking for others (let alone for Paizo itself), but: the AP’s and monsters that they published are balanced against Elite Array characters (at least, last I checked). Hence why it is asked to be used here. PFS may use 20ptbuy, but that is Society play. The base rules that the game is based on was designed around Elite Array PCs.
Also, Vega Surtova was a real life PC of mine, but he was originally a 25 pt buy that also used Hero Points and a few house rules as well, and he was NOT originally built with DPR in mind at all. For the purpose of posting in this thread, as per the guidelines set by AMiB in the OP, I changed him to Elite Array, changed some of his equipment, changed some of his feats, and even changed his archetypes as well. I am doing so again now under request of AMiB. Really, no big deal. It's all in the name of fun.
(also, I'm not trying to "win" any mythical DPR competition with these posts. I know I can build (and have made characters that do) significantly more DPR than these monks. I just want to show what one possibility of what can be done is... and after the recent monk threads, I've had monks on the mind. Also, the challenge of a trip build and an Intimidate build that weren't pure fail was intriguing. What I've posted may not be the best possible, but I don't think they are "pure fail"). So please, let’s not try to "win" the thread, nor get defensive when questions are raised about a build. ^_^
Also, posting in a spoiler makes it difficult to reply, please don't do that.
Apologies. I shall refrain. (except for stat blocks) ;)
**REMINDER OF MATERIALS USED**
Core Rule Book (CRB)
Advanced Players Guide (APG)
Kingmaker Players Guide (KPG)
Faction Guide (FG)
Curse of the Crimson Throne 4: A History of Ashes (CotCT4)
~nicknamed the "Illegal Intimancer"~
Racial Variant (APG): Heart of the Fields (+5 to Profession: Gardener, & 1/day can ignore fatigue/exhaustion)
Traits: Noble Born: Surtova (KPG) (+2 damage vs. Flat-Footed opponents)
Honored Fist of the Society (FG) (+1 Ki)
STR: 8
DEX: 16 (14 +2 enh)
CON: 10
INT: 12
WIS: 23 (15 + 2 + 2 level + 4 enh)
CHA: 13
SPEED: 60’ (12 sq)
HP: 68 (10d8+20)
DR: 1/-
FORT: 9 (7 base + 0 con + 2 res)
REFLEX: 12 (7 base + 3 dex + 2 res)
WILL: 15 (7 base + 6 wis + 2 res)
AC: 28 / 30 (10 + 3 armor + 3 monk + 3 dex + 6 wis + 1 dodge + 1 natural + 1 deflection + 2 shield)
FF: 24 / 26
Touch: 24
CMD: 31 / 33 (10 + 7 bab + 3 monk + 0 str + 3 dex + 6 wis + 1 dodge + 1 deflection + 2 shield)
Conditional: +2 shield bonus when starts and ends turn in same place
ATTACK: Unarmed Strike +15 (7 base + 6 wis + 1 Weapon Focus + 1 Enh)
DAMAGE: 2d6+7 (+2), 20/x2^special (non-lethal) (counts as Magic & Lawful) (+2 for FF only)
^ crits cause the Frightened condition
FLURRY OF BLOWS: +16#/+16/+16*/+16*/+11/+11 (10 bab + 6 wis + 1 WF + 1 Enh – 2 FoB)
# = Dim Mak (touch attack) Stunning Fist DC 21
* = Medusa’s Wrath
FOB DAMAGE: 2d6+7 (+2), 20/x2^special (+2 only vs. Flat-Footed)
CMB: +18 (10 bab + 6 wis + 1 WF + 1 Enh)
Ki Points: 14/day
Stunning Fist: 11/day
SKILLS
Intimidate +27 (10 ranks + 3 class + 1 cha + 3 comp + 4 persuasive + 6 skill focus)
FEATS
Human Bonus: Persuasive (+2 / +4 to Intimidate)
Monk Bonus 1: Stunning Fist (Stun. Fort DC 21)
Monk Bonus 1: Unarmed Strike
Monk Bonus 1: Dodge
Level 1: Skill Focus: Intimidate (+3 / +6 to Intimidate)
Sacred Mountain Bonus 2: Toughness
Monk Bonus 2: Combat Reflexes
Level 3: Enforcer (APG - non-lethal enables Free Intimidate check. crits cause Frightened condition)
Level 5: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
Monk Bonus 6: Ki Diversity: Dim Mak (FG) (1 Ki, perform Stunning Fist as a Touch Attack)
Level 7: Dazzling Display
Level 9: Shatter Defenses
Monk Bonus 10: Medusa’s Wrath
ABILITIES
Heart of the Fields (APG): 1/day ignore fatigue/exhaustion
AC Bonus
FoB
Bonus Feats
Stunning Fist
Iron Monk (Sacred Mountain – APG) (Toughness & +1 Natural Armor) (replaces Evasion)
Fast Movement (+30)
Ki Mystic (+2 Ki)
Ki Pool (1/2 level + wis)
Bastion Stance (Sacred Mountain – APG) cannot be moved) (replaced Slow Fall)
Iron Limb Defense (Sacred Mountain – APG) (2 shield when stationary) (replaced High Jump)
Mystic Insight (Ki Mystic – APG) (Immediate action, allow ally to reroll attack or save) (replaces Purity of Body)
Wholeness of Body
Adamantine Monk (Sacred Mountain - APG) (DR 1/-) (replaces Improved Evasion)
EQUIPMENT
Amulet of Mighty Fists: +1 Guided* (CotCT4) (20000 gp)
Bracers of Armor +3 (9000 gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000 gp)
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 (4000 gp)
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 (16000 gp)
Circlet of Persuasion (4500 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000 gp)
Handy Haversack (2000 gp)
Consumables/Left Over (500 gp)
Single Attack: 9.555
Single vs FF: 12.6
Normal FoB (nothing triggers) DPR: 30.87
Ki for Dim Mak and everything works DPR: 75.18*
Ki for extra attack and everything works DPR: 85.05*
* = these numbers should be lower due to the chance that Stunning Fist may not work.
If it were legal to take Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, I totally would (increasing the save DC to 23). I would switch out Persuasive for it, reducing his intimidate check to +23 (which is still high enough to get most (but not all) creatures on a 1, but not as guaranteed as the +27 he has now).
Note: changing target AC: if stun goes off, its AC becomes 20 (-2 dex, -2 stun). Being FF does nothing to reduce this further as it’s already lost it’s dex to AC (but being FF still adds an extra +2 damage from the Noble Born trait). If Vega were also able to trip the target, it could be further reduced to 16… but I think that’s a build for someone else (or at least, another day).
Stunning fist triggers Medusa’s Wrath (and works on creatures immune to fear), but if it fails, Enforcer is still very likely to cause them to be shaken, which with one more hit triggers Medusa’s Wrath as well (provided it’s not immune to fear).
~P
Yar.
An additional note about Vega:
In my initial version, I had the trait bonus to damage vs FF targets as a bonus that does not get multiplied. Looking closer at it, I believe this is incorrect. It should be a trait bonus to the base damage (and thus does get multiplied on a crit). Traits that add bonus damage that do not get multiplied have that fact called out, and Noble Born: Surtova does not do this... it simply adds +2 damage. Version II of Vega includes this change. (This is also how I play it in RL).
~P
Elf DEX-Based Bladebound Magus 10
Core, APG, UM, Seekers of Secrets
Ability Scores
STR 8
DEX 15+1[Level]+4[Belt]+2[racial] = 22
CON 13+1[Level]-2[race] = 12
INT 14+2[Headband]+2[racial] = 18
WIS 12
CHA 10
Feats
1 Finesse
3 Dervish Dance
5 W focus Scimitar
7 Intensified Spell
9 Spell Penetration
Traits
+2 Initiative
Magical Lineage [Shocking Grasp]
Equipment [62k]
Belt of +4 DEX [16k]
Headband of +2 INT [4k]
+2 Mithral Breastplate [8.2k]
+1 Deflection Ring [2k]
+1 Natural Amulet [2k]
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone [5k]
Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (Attack) [4k]
Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (Saves) [4k]
Cloak of Resist +2 [4k]
+3 Scimitar [free]
12 level 1 pearls of power [4k]
Wayfinder [with Dusty Rose inside] [0.5k]
Defenses
AC: 26, 30 with shield spell
Fort: 10
Ref: 11
Will: 10, 12 vs. enchantment
Immune to sleep
HP: 63 (ick)
Limited use quantities
Arcane Pool: 7
Black Blade Arcane Pool: 3
Level 1 Spells per day: 18
Full attack offense
With spell combat (Intensified Shocking Grasp), and having used an arcane point as a swift action for his weapon to become a +5 keen scimitar for a minute and using a free action and one of the black blade's arcane points to give the black blade +3 to damage for 1 minute
Attack 1: +19 (or +22 vs. metal-armored opponent - not accounted for) (1D6+14+10D6) / 15-20
Attack 2: +19 1D6+14/15-20
Attack 3: +14 1D6+14/15-20
Note that if attack 1 doesn't connect, then the charge is held and can be discharged through one of the other swings, giving them the bonus on attack rolls against metal-armored opponents as well. Also note that haste, a spell the magus likely knows, can increase this attack routine to +20/+20/+20/+15.
DPR was difficult to calculate due to the possible holding of the charge if the first and/or second attack miss. Let's say we have a function DPH(chance to hit, avg damage, chance to threaten, crit multiplier). Since the first attack only has an 80% chance to hit, I had to do the following to calculate the DPH for the later hits:
Attack 2: [0.8 * DPH(0.8,17.5,0.3,2)] + [0.2 * DPH(0.8,52.5,0.3,2)]
And for hit 3 it was 0.96/0.4 instead of 0.8 and 0.2, since there's a 96% chance the charge has been discharged after the first two attacks. Sorry I couldn't explain that any simpler. Just wanted to make sure the math folks know I'm calculating this correctly.
Anyway, DPR for that routine adds up to:
54.6 / 25.48 / 13.5135 = 93.6
And Hasted (requires a buffing round, also only 4/day castings), it would be:
58.0125 / 25.13875 / 20.20769 / 13.74214 = 103.36
In other words, haste isn't too helpful vs. AC 24 with this build, but it has multiple targets so at least the whole party gets the buff, and it could significantly help if the party has a fighter type who wields a 2H weapon.
The black blade +3 damage can only be used 3 times per day, so DPR will be ~10 lower for anything but those 3 combats. 18 shocking grasps should last all day. 7 1-minute battles for making the weapon +5 keen should also be sufficient.
I'd be interested to see how an Arcane Duelist stacks up against a Magus (of any variety). Being able to Haste / Good Hope / Inspire Courage in one round would be very useful, especially with the two feats that give +1 to IC buffs.
What feats are those?
stuffI'm pretty sure you're dead wrong about how 2h fighters with Backswing are more effective relative to other classes/builds at higher levels of strength than this thread allows. I'll test this when I get around to making a TWFing fighter.
Technically true. Hasted, a 2H Fighter at level 20 will get 9.5xSTR on damage throughout the round, while a Two-Weapon fighter with double slice and rend can get 10xSTR. However, it's easier for the 2HF to focus on STR as he is less MAD, which is why the ability to point buy helps him more.
Point taken about it being necessary to use a standard for comparison. I guess I just think a point buy would have been a better standard, as it's more common in games [well, at least to my knowledge] and is also the standard used in organized play. For all my other builds I'll be using the elite array, though, so we can put this dispute behind us.
Even without Rend in the picture, I'm fairly certain Backswing's minor advantage gets completely swamped by the fact that multi-attackers benefit more from the accuracy increase from strength, since they're not capped for accuracy against as many targets and also because that accuracy is multiplied by all of their non-strength sources of damage.
As far as non-strength sources of damage are concerned, THF gets 100 damage from power attack when hasted at level 20, where (without rend, since that's what you said) the TWF gets only 65. This bonus damage is spread over all the attacks, and both builds have roughly the same average attack rolls. So that's 35 damage that THF's attack rolls are helping that TWF's attack rolls are not.
TWF is probably using two kukris, so damage from actual weapons is probably lower for the TWF (8D4=20 vs. 5D10=27.5). The THF is now in the lead by 42.5.
Weapon specialization: 16 damage for the TWF and only 10 damage for the THF. THF only ahead by 36.5 now.
Weapon training: TWF has +4, where the THF has +6 (gloves of dueling). The TWF could get +6 if he didn't take the two-weapon warrior archetype, but then he can't use both attacks on a single attack and he's at a -2 to hit. I'll assume both at +6, though, to be generous. That's 30 for THF and 42 for the TWF. THF is only ahead by 24.5 now.
Enhancement bonuses. +5's all around. That's 25 for the THF and 40 for the TWF. THF is still ahead by 9.5 non-STR damage over the round, at about the same average attack roll.
Unless you're dipping rogue, I don't think I'm forgetting anything, and the THF is still ahead of the TWF by 9.5 non-STR damage spread across roughly the same average attack rolls. Without haste the TWF wins, I'm sure, but haste is something any THF would prioritize (might even buy some extra pairs of boots of speed with the money he saves buying only one weapon and not getting DEX on his belt).
I'd be interested to see how an Arcane Duelist stacks up against a Magus (of any variety). Being able to Haste / Good Hope / Inspire Courage in one round would be very useful, especially with the two feats that give +1 to IC buffs.What feats are those?
They aren't on d20pfsrd yet, so I'm not 100% certain, but I've heard people talk about them on these forums. I think they're from an AP, but I do recall that they increased the effect by 1 each. I'm not sure on the requirements, but if I had to guess, it'd require 5 and 10 ranks in some skill?
I have in mind a few questions I'd be interested in seeing answered by the kind of rigorous math/details of a thread like this, but don't have time yet to work out builds for (maybe later this week if I get a bit of time and no one else has found them interesting or run with them):
- From a DPR perspective, are the fighter archetypes like two weapon warrior worth it vs. base fighter?
- Assuming a character that's a mutt of at least 1 level of rogue and at least one level of a full BAB class like fighter or ranger, DPR-wise is there an optimal mix? Damage-wise, how heavy is the opportunity cost in taking more levels of rogue than is optimal?
- I'm also curious how Red Mantis stacks up against the above, given its sort of odd "kind of rogue, but with bonus normally fighter-only feats" niche.
- Other than something like Holy which might beat DR you otherwise wouldn't beat, is it ever DPR-wise a good idea to pick a +damage dice enhancement on a weapon over a simple plus?
- It also might be interesting to see how the various posted builds stack up to something like: "exactly the normal target, but with DR 5/- or 10/-" to get a sense for what kinds of builds DR eats up more than others.
Some of these were probably answered by the last DPR Olympics thread and I managed to miss or gloss over it.
I have in mind a few questions I'd be interested in seeing answered by the kind of rigorous math/details of a thread like this, but don't have time yet to work out builds for (maybe later this week if I get a bit of time and no one else has found them interesting or run with them):
- From a DPR perspective, are the fighter archetypes like two weapon warrior worth it vs. base fighter?
Two-Handed fighter can be worth it depending on how high of STR you're doing. Two-weapon warrior is worth it for single attacks and AoOs. Weapon Master gets weapon training at earlier levels, and so has more DPR than a normal fighter, but the two-handed fighter will probably out-DPR him at high STR. Both the Two-Handed Fighter and Weapon Master lose out on armor training and don't have any defensive class features. Reliable strike and deadly critical are alright, but at only a few uses per day they don't really affect normal DPR.
Two-Handed Fighter, compared to normal fighter using a Two-Handed weapon:
4 attacks with haste (levels 11-15), improved crit on an 18-20 weapon (fauchard, elven curve blade), and a 95%, 95%, 85%, and 60% chance to hit on your respective swings, then:
At STR 20, Two-Handed Fighter gives a DPR advantage of 9.36 over the ordinary fighter. 3.7 on a single attack.
STR 24: 12.48 advantage, 4.94 single
STR 28: 15.6 advantage, 6.175 single
STR 32: 18.72 advantage, 7.41 single
So for that archetype, it's not as worth it for low STR builds as it is for high-STR builds.
Two-Weapon Warrior, compared with a normal fighter using TWF:
This one is easy. You'll have lower DPR in a full attack. The only DPR advantage the TWW has here is better attack rolls (2 better, by level 15), but he loses out on a fighter's favorite item, the gloves of dueling, losing not only 2 attack but 2 damage as well (this is because he doesn't have weapon training, he only has an ability which functions differently but has essentially the same net effects). The overall effect here is that he's even on attack rolls but 2 less on damage, though he does save 15,000gp. At level 15 though, that's not a whole lot.
However, on a single attack or an AoO, he will have much better DPR than a typical TWF as he can make attacks with both weapons instead of just one.
Weapon Master:
Essentially, he'll have higher DPR at any level (compared to an ordinary fighter who isn't TWF) during which his weapon training ability is higher than a normal fighter's.
- Assuming a character that's a mutt of at least 1 level of rogue and at least one level of a full BAB class like fighter or ranger, DPR-wise is there an optimal mix? Damage-wise, how heavy is the opportunity cost in taking more levels of rogue than is optimal?
It's going to depend largely on what your current level is. At level 11, having one level of rogue and 9 levels of fighter probably won't be so great, as you'll only have 2-4 attacks compared to a fighter's 3-6 (second number is TWF). However, at character level 12 a rogue 1/fighter 11 could outdo the ordinary TWF against most enemies if he's able to maintain a flank easily.
- Other than something like Holy which might beat DR you otherwise wouldn't beat, is it ever DPR-wise a good idea to pick a +damage dice enhancement on a weapon over a simple plus?
It's sometimes better and sometimes worse. Against an enemy you're almost always hitting, it's usually strictly better for DPR. Against an enemy you're having a hard time hitting, it's usually not. I tend to stay away from them anyway, as too many things have resist 10 in an array of elements.
- It also might be interesting to see how the various posted builds stack up to something like: "exactly the normal target, but with DR 5/- or 10/-" to get a sense for what kinds of builds DR eats up more than others.
People who make (and hit with) a lot of attacks will lose the most from this.
For instance, the Synthesist build I posted has a DPR of 162.33 while hasted and pouncing. In this situation, he hits on average with 5.6 of his 6 attacks (to calculate average number of hits, simply add all the the hit chance percentages). Since each hit will do at least 10 damage, DR 10/- would lower his DPR by 5.6*10... = 56. So DR 10 would lower his DPR to 106.33.
When not hasting and simply full attacking from a standstill, he loses less (but of course, has less to lose). Of his 5 attacks, he hits with an average of 3.9 attacks, so he loses 3.9*10 = 39 DPR when he's standstill full attacking a DR 10/- enemy. This lowers his standstill DPR from 110.72 to 71.72.
Another possibly interesting question for analysis would be something like: under what circumstances, if any, are features/feats that give secondary natural attacks (e.g. Razortusk) worth their opportunity cost in terms of DPR.
Has anyone tried a dip into cleric to pick up domains, a phylactery of channeling, and making use of the Grayflame weapon enhancement? Grayflame is quite good, since it gives +1 and unresistable 1d6 for channeling as a swift action. That makes up for the loss of BAB and adds 3.5 damage, plus domain powers. Also gives some buffs.
Another possibly interesting question for analysis would be something like: under what circumstances, if any, are features/feats that give secondary natural attacks (e.g. Razortusk) worth their opportunity cost in terms of DPR.
Going half-orc and picking up a bite attack is always worth it DPR-wise unless your DPR depended on that one extra feat you'd get from being human. Or unless you're using a reach weapon, since then it doesn't do anything.
Of course, it might not be worth the utility or defense that you give up, but it's rare that you actually have to give up any DPR to get the half-orc bite, so a DPR analysis isn't going to really answer the bite dilemma for you.
Has anyone tried a dip into cleric to pick up domains, a phylactery of channeling, and making use of the Grayflame weapon enhancement? Grayflame is quite good, since it gives +1 and unresistable 1d6 for channeling as a swift action. That makes up for the loss of BAB and adds 3.5 damage, plus domain powers. Also gives some buffs.
The +1 enhancement doesn't make up for the BAB you're losing, it makes up for the +1 enhancement you spent on grayflame. Thus, compared to a normal fighter, you'd be at -1 to attack (-1 BAB, -1 cost you paid for grayflame, and +1 from grayflame being active) and +1D6 damage per hit (-1 cost you paid for grayflame, and 1D6+1 from grayflame). Also, it's not "non-resistable," as depending on what type of energy you channel either good or evil creatures are immune, though it's true that some characters will be unlikely to face many good foes.
Further, this 1D6 damage can be activated only 3+CHA times per day. working for 3 rounds each time after your 11,000gp investment into it. CHA can no longer be a complete dump stat. Probably not worth it for DPR, though the utility of having a level of cleric could make it worthwhile for general reasons.
I'm pretty sure that the damage from Grayflame is just divibe damage, not like the damage of Channel Smite. Also, taking magical knack in cleric will let you cast divine favor for +2 to hit and damage, making up for the loss of BAB and then some.
I think that it'd be worthy of investigation at least. Even a cha of 10 lets you do this for 9 rounds. A 12 cha makes that 12 rounds, which should cover 3 or 4 combats. Even just 10 will let it last for upwards of 3 combats. It's lasting 3 rounds per channel due to the phylactery. And you can use any cleric wand to buff yourself up!
Going half-orc and picking up a bite attack is always worth it DPR-wise unless your DPR depended on that one extra feat you'd get from being human. Or unless you're using a reach weapon, since then it doesn't do anything.
Well, it's sort of two feats vs. human: the human bonus feat, plus the feat to buy Razortusk.
I'll see if I can find the time to post a 10 something that way and the human way and how it shakes out one vs the other.
What's the effect of reach on DPR?
What's the effect of reach on DPR?In strict terms, zero. Reach is more about being able to make AoOs (and, in general, overall battlefield control) than straightforward DPR.
That's what I figured, but it seems very wrong. If you can have Reach, and have an equivalent DPS to some other build, then you should be superior.
@ Why doesn't reach matter?
The setup has a ton of assumptions, but that is the nature of optimization games. If you make the setup closer to what you'd see in a game it becomes more complicated to figure out the math, and what do you really gain? What is the point anyway?
IMO the point is to have an interesting optimization puzzle which is tangentially related to playing an RPG.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Yar.
Math Follows. ** spoiler omitted **...
I laughed out loud upon seeing the length of some of those formulae.
Props.
Before doing all of the math, I can say for certain that Dim Mak is a damage loss.
If Dim Mak only inflicts the Stun condition, then I agree. However, the description of it is not very clear.
**note: I'm not trying to argue the point, but I do feel I should bring an alternative PoV to light.**
Dim Mak: You may spend 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action to execute your next Stunning Fist attack as a melee touch attack rather than a normal melee attack.
I've heard some people rule that it is still a damaging attack (you still do your regular unarmed damage plus a chance to stun) that just uses a touch attack instead of a normal attack. Plus: Stunning Fist also says you do your regular unarmed damage and gain a chance to stun. This interpretation would make it a damage increase. In addition: nothing in the description of Touch Attacks say that damage is not normally inflicted, but in fact says the opposite:
Touch Attacks PRD[/url]]... the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect.
What is full effect? ...Of course, this is not the place to argue the minutia of rules regarding not-well-known abilities. That's something for individual GMs to decide, and a discussion for the rules forum (and maybe even errata to clarify it). Just saying: it can easily be interpreted either way.
(No promises on whether I'll get around to doing that math.)
No worries. You've done a lot regarding Vega already.
^_^
~P
STR 20
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 18
WIS 10
CHA 8
Arcanas
3 Black Blade
6 Close Range
9 Spell Blending (Heroism)
Traits
·Heirloom Weapon [Falcata]
·Magical Lineage [Shocking Grasp]
Feats
Hu Heighten Spell
L1 Spell Penetration
L3 WF(Falcata)
L5 Power Attack
M5 Intensified Spell
L7 Preferred Spell
L9 G.Spell Penetration
Defense (with heroism already casted)
CA: 25=10+9+2+1+1+1 (29 with shield)
Saves:
F:14=7base+4items+1+2
R:11=3base+4items+2+2
W:13=7base+4items+0+2
Wealth
Falcata +3 0
Belt+4Str 16000
Headband +2Int 4000
Breastplate +3 9450
ring +1 2000
amulet +1 2000
Cloak +3 9000
Dusty Rose IStone (+1CA) 5000
Cracked Pale Green(A&S) 8000
12 lvl1 pearls of power 4000
Metamagic Rod Extend(L) 1500
Leftovers 1050
Attack Routine
Using 1 arcane point for +2 enhancement and keen and 1 point from the black blade
7Lvl+5STR+5Enh+1WF+1Trait+1Comp+2Moral-2SpellCombat-2PowerAttack
+18/+18/+16
1d8+17
(.75*21.5(1+0.2*2))*2+.65*21.5(1+0.2*2)
45.15+19.565=
With Haste in the first round, and Arcane Strike in the 2nd round
+19/+19/+19/+17
.8*24.5*1.4*3+.7*24.5*1.4
82.32+24.01=
the chance to hit the shocking grasp in any attack of the first routine is 1 - the possibility of miss.
1- (0.25)^2*0.35= 0.978125
so the shocking grasp dpr will be:
0.978125*35*1.2=41.08125
in the second routine will be:
1- (0.2)^3*0.3= 0.9976
so the shocking grasp dpr will be:
0.9976*35*1.2=41.8992
So the dpr will be , and with 1 round for cast haste.
Any error with the math? Any suggestion for another feat?
Welp, I was going to make a cleric 1 / arcane duelist 9 that used good hope, inspire courage +2, allegro, magical knack (cleric), Divine Favor (at +2 atk/dmg), Grayflame, and a high UMD to grab a ring of revelations (weapon mastery) (to grab Wep Focus, imp crit, and greater wep focus). But the buff rules don't allow that. It'd get +9to hit from all the buffs, and do +6 damage per attack. Plus Grayflame would last 3 rounds with a phylactery of channeling, adding +1 to hit and +1d6 unresistable damage. Using a falchion to exploit the high crit and bonus damage could be nasty.
With 14cha, we can get +21 to UMD, and can keep on trying the ring on until we get a 32,which is the point where we get Greater Wep focus. We'd need skill focus for that, but since we can just keep on trying the ring on, it isn't necessary.
Too bad we can't use Bladethirst with inspire courage yet.
Domains would be growth and protection. This gives us swift action Enlarge person a few times a day. We can use the free arcane strike for the other turns. Protection gives us +1 to saves.
We can also use Versatile weapon to give us something like +2 enhancement, allowing us to use a +1 holy falchion to get some extra damage. From holy and Grayflame, we'll be doing +3d6 damage, average of 11.5. With Grayflame, the weapon is effectively +3 holy falchion that does 2d4+3d6+9+7 (str) + 9 (PA) + 2 (arcane strike). Or 2d4+3d6+27. Three attacks at this, at +21ish on two attacks, and +16ish on the last. It crits on 15-20. So there's a good chance it'll crit once per round.
I assumed 15 base strength +1 from level + 4 from item. Probably take half elven to get falchion. PA, SF(Umd), furious focus, and the other slots are open.
If someone could figure out the DPR of that, that'd be awesome! I'm on a phone right now, so it'd be hard.
edit: ok, time to finish this guy, I guess. Let's see what flagrant disregard of the rules of this thread can do...
Base saves will be 6/7/9 (fort/ref/will). With good hope, that's 8/9/11. That's good enough!
h(d+s)+tchd
.85*(32+11.5)+ (.30*1*.85*32)
36.975 + 8.16 = 45.135 damage on first attack.
I think I may have done my math wrong, since this seems very low, and a crit that does +54 damage seems like it should add a bit more than 8.16 damage, even if it *is* only a 30% chance. Perhaps I was thrown off by the "x2 = 1" part in the OP. Multiplying the x2 in, instead of using 1, gives +16.32, which gives 53.295.
Two handing a falcata changes this to...
.85*(32.5 + 11.5) + (.20*3*.85*31.5)
36.55 + 16.065 = 52.615 Or not much of a difference.
These numbers are from winging it, so they aren't perfect. I was really expecting this guy to do better than that. Yes, he'll get 2 more attacks (one at +13, or about 45% chance to hit), but it's still a lot lower than I expected. +27 damage is pretty damn high, and +21 to-hit on a non-full BAB character is really good.
Is leadership allowed?
It would be interesting to see how Butterfly Sting with a scythe, and a cohort with a high crit-range would work out for DPS. 15-20/x4 is nothing to sneeze at.
would ability damage builds be out of place here?
I guess they would. this is just about dpr benchmarks.
Not exactly, as long as the build is capable of doing normal damage it has a place here.
Builds that apply effects or have secondary effects, I dare to say, are more than welcome because they help us evaluate the trade off. For example the DPR of a stunning fist monk versus the DPR of the 4 winds monk, even if the whole implicances of stunning the opponent are fully evaluated by DPR comparisons.
Humbly,
Yawar