My PFS paladin just hit level four and took an ACF called "Oath of Vengeance."
So.... concepts for Paladins vary!
Sarta wrote:
Yeah, I'm not so sure the whole "fueled by vengeance" concept works for a paladin. However, the comics do have some other great examples:
The Tick wrote:
Yes, evil comes in many forms, whether it be a man-eating cow or Joseph Stalin, but you can't let the package hide the pudding! Evil is just plain bad! You don't cotton to it. You gotta smack it in the nose with the rolled-up newspaper of goodness! Bad dog! Bad dog!
MiB, thanks for the reply-- let me correct and clarify.
Yes, I made a mistake on the fully-buffed DPR and your number is right(I think you made a mistake on the Round 1 calculation, though). That means that Fred is slightly outgunned by Farshot Fallon, even with some happy assumptions. Fred is at 69.4 DPR, 2 DPR behind Fallon, even with Flame Arrow+ stacked elemental damage on his bow + Arcane Strike. If Fred can't do an elemental cocktail, DPR drops by 2. If can't use flame arrow (or Fallon borrows it), Fred loses 9.6 DPR. If Fred can't Arcane Strike (say, because it is round 1), Fred loses 11.8 DPR (slightly less, actually, because at this point he has no reason not to deadly aim and recover some damage). Worst case, that's a very chumpy 49.8 DPR.
And honestly that makes me feel better about the fighter comparison, since Fred has a better melee backup, similar HP (with false life), similar defenses (with mage armor), and a bunch of utility spells and hexes for when neither sword nor bow is the right tool. Plus, with any warning at all he adds a 10 minute Gravity Bow (7.6 DPR), and any to hit bonus he gains (say, from casting haste on the party) can readily translate into more damage via the application of Deadly Aim.
Addressed in detail below.
Spoiler:
A Man In Black wrote:
Flame Arrow is kind of borderline, ruleswise
As you point out, I can casually share flame arrows with any other archers in the party and non-archers can't have the buff. I think it's reasonable to include under the challenge rules... but you've handily pulled out the damage bonus it provides for comparison in any case. I could try to weasel in Gravity bow for an extra 7.4 DPR, but it only lasts 10 minutes and I can't yet swift-cast it.
A Man In Black wrote:
If Fred has no resources whatsoever.... This is mostly academic, as he's got plenty of pool points to spend.
Agreed. At that point Fred would spam hexes.
A Man In Black wrote:
Check my math?
My mistakes, two of them (and thanks for showing the math-- helped me figure out where I went wrong). I allowed manyshot to crit, and double-counted base damage on crits. Corrected and I see your numbers on my version of the formula.
Note I have the option of ditching +2 enhancement for +2d6 on an enemy without energy resistances. That inches non-DA damage back up to 69.44. Combining that with deadly aim is a straight downgrade, however.
On your math for Round 1 attacks:
A Man In Black wrote:
Most of the time, he will use Arcane Pool to buff his weapon to +5, with an element type appropriate to whatever enemy he's fighting.
That attack routine is [ed: for round 1, without arcane strike]
+5 [element] longbow +15(x2)/+15/+10 d8+8+d6 (20/x3)
Negatory. All Fred loses on from Arcane Strike is +4 damage.
To hit remains 7 BAB+6 DEX +1 Bracers+1 Weapon Focus +5 Enhancement-2 Rapid Shot= +18x2/18/13 d8+8(3 Str 5 Enh) +d6 That yields a DPR of 56.1 with my corrected calculations, or 58 with deadly aim. On round 1 Fred will still be sorely tempted to Evil Eye a big bad guy so the party can alpha strike and/or caste haste on the party, but this is a DPR competition, so 58 is the relevant number.
A Man In Black wrote:
Did you mean to take Evil Eye instead of Cackle? Cackle is what's on the character sheet, but it doesn't seem awfully useful without Evil Eye.
No. because Evil Eye came free with the Hexcrafter ACF-- the character as built gets Evil Eye, Slumber, AND Cackle. That lets me be a Fell Cheerleader maintain Evil Eye indefinitely with Cackle despite my weak DC's, and throw a Slumber at the bad guy (or evil eye at his minions) while I'm at it. Of course, no full attacks while cackling.
A Man In Black wrote:
Wait a second. Where are these magi getting free +3 weapons from?
In Fred's case, gold pieces. (Actually, I pretty much stole Farshot Fallon's gear wholesale, with minor fiddling on defense and melee backup). Black Blades can't be longbows. In a real game, Fred would cast GMW on his weapon and invest in +Holy... but the rules of the challenge say no, because Fred's friends would do that too if they were traveling with Fred. Fred would be grumpy if they didn't buy level 3 pearls of power, though.
Feats:
Weapon Focus (longbow)
Deadly Aim (bonus, but not used for DPR; replaced with weapon finesse below the fold for a melee option)
Point Blank Shot (human bonus)
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Arcane Strike
Manyshot
Skills:
Whatever
Alternative Class Features that Provide No Benefit to Archery:
Spellblade, Hexcrafter (Evil Eye) DC 17
Magus Arcana:
Spell Blending (Gravity Bow, but not used for DPR; replaced with Black Blade to provide a melee option in the alt build), Hex Arcana (Cackle, Slumber Hex)
Gear:
+3 composite longbow (+3 str mod)
Pale blue ioun stone (+2 str)
Belt of +4 dex
+1 mithral buckler
Cloak of Resistance +2
Handy Haversack
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Lesser Bracers of Archery
You may notice that Fred mostly stole Farshot Fallon's gear.
Fred's Rapidshot routine is:
+5 longbow +18x2/18/13 d8+2d6+12 (20/x3)
Fred does 2d6 fire damage and increases his bow to +5 from +3 via Flame Arrow and Arcane Pool. His average damage per round is 71.4 without deadly aim. +1 to hit nets 5.2 DPR; +1 to damage adds 4.1 DPR. An additional full-BAB attack adds 19.5 DPR. If he did use deadly aim, it would add .4 DPR-- but I've excluded that in favor of consistent accuracy, and to provide flex for the melee backup below the next fold.
Caveats:
Given that he can cast GMW, in a real game his bow would probably be +1 holy, not +3; given that he can cast gravity bow as a level one spell, he will often deal an extra 2.5/shot despite its 1 minute/level duration; given that he can cast haste, his party will typically be hasted. He is sad about being level 10. Next level he adds Weapon Specialization and Point Blank Master, but them's the breaks.
Other Notable Abilities:
If shoved into a corner or grappled, he can dimension door out, or we can rig up a melee backup option....
Spoiler:
Drop Deadly Aim (we're not using it anyway) and gravity bow to get a Black Blade Kukri and Weapon Finesse. Use your arcane pool to raise the black blade from +3 to +5 and Keen. Use a free action to activate black blade strike (+3 damage) and after the first round, also use arcane strike(swift action, +4 damage). Hope for an armored opponent (assumed in below calculations) to max out the utility of shocking grasp.
Result: To Hit +16/13/11 (15/x2) d4+15 with a 5d6 (15/x2) shocking grasp on the first swing, for 72.3 DPR, or 64.3 if the target isn't wearing metal armor.
... for close to the same damage, that will have zero impact on the ranged capability above.
As built, though, Fred will typically not fire when moving, preferring to deliver a slumber hex (DC 17 or sleep for 10 rounds) or an Evil Eye (-4 to saves to a target for 10 rounds, 1 round with successful save). Slumber hexes have a decent shot against a mook with a weak will save, and become dangerous if they follow an Evil Eye. Evil Eye also seriously enables other party members.
I would think that a "magocracy" would still suffer if ruled by an un-charismatic git, simply because no one likes technocrats with good policy ideas and the soul of a robot.
The uncharismatic Magocrat would be a lousy inspirational leader-- but might make up for it via other means. Pathfinder has thinned out the spells that will do this kind of thing, but teleporting your ambassadors and high level trade envoys around, spamming walls of iron and stone, and such remains darn useful.
E.G: "Instead of spending an extra BP to create a road over this river, I cast Teleport to hex X, cast wall of stone a bunch of times, and teleport back here. Woo, bridge for 0 BP. But really... your magister can do this too.
The question your asking here is:
Q: "how can a political leader substitute Intelligence or Wisdom for force of personality to be an effective ruler?"
A: By giving himself good advice. HOWEVER, he would be better off spending ALL his time thinking up good advice, and then telling it to someone with force of personality who listens to him.
Since Pathfinder doesn't let you do two jobs part-time, the Intelligent Un-Charismatic ruler does suffer from not being able to be a part-time magister. I think the easiest way to accomplish this is to assume that a wizard ruler would employ a PR flack, designate the PR flack "ruler" by game rules (a different title in game: Perhaps Adjutant, Regent, or Chancellor), and designate the wizard "magister." And cast baleful polymorph whenever the PR flack gets uppity.
Troubleshooter wrote:
I do have some respect for wanting different systems for this sort of thing. One of my players was salivating over the idea of a magocracy, which the rules unfortunately do not handle. I myself would like to see what a warring tribal community would look like, where Strength is one of the primary stats, Weakness is a stat penalty where your subject no longer fear you enough to remain under your rule, and Honor is somehow integral ...
But I think it's important to stay away from altering things to the point where any king can use his highest ability score (even Constitution) for any society and still be as good as a ruling-specialist.
Dangit. Now I'm tempted to daydream about how different societies would benefit from different ability scored-rulers, and what additional rules changes would tumble down from that. Magocracy? Tempting to say Intelligence, but then, Sorcerors are full spellcasters too, and technically Bards even though they don't have the spell selection for it ...
We've actually got a monarch with basically the exact stats Wraith laid out (plus a +2 racial bonus to charisma). It's a Cavalier/Rogue rather than a Fighter, but still-- plate mail and shiny weapons.
The party includes an Oracle of the Heavens with a higher Charisma, but for personality reasons it was the Cavalier and a gishy Bard who duked it out for leadership. A point or two in your starting kingdom stats isn't that big of a deal. That said, making it a "pick a stat" is problematic too--honestly it's hard to see a CHA7 character making a good ruler regardless of how bright he or she is, and this will just perpetuate the "Spell casting is a prerequisite to optimal rulership" effect.
So back when Magus was in playtest, I was unimpressed with Spell Combat and got to thinking: Would a Magus actually be better off ignoring it and focusing on archery? Now that Ultimate Magic has hit retail, I think it is time to dust this off and try again with the fully-matured class. I think the result is a powerful, well-balanced character that deals respectable damage per round and has a lot of combat support and out-of-combat utility choices from spellcasting. Better than the revamped Magus-- perhaps not. But a viable Arcane Archer-in-a-can? You decide.
Assumptions: Pathfinder Society (20 Point Build, 12 Level Progression)
Race: Let's do Human. Elf is very nice as well-- Increase your Wisdom to 10, drop Iron Will at 5, and trade 1 HP and 1 SP for some nice racials. However: No rapid shot till 3, and no archer trifecta until 5. That's a long time in PS.
Str 14 (5) Dex 18 (10, Racial Bonus) Con 13 (3)
Int 16 (10) Wisdom 7 (-4) Charisma 7 (-4)
Traits: +1 Will Save, +2 Initiative
Progression
@1: HP 10, AC 18 (Chain Shirt), Fort 3, Ref 4, Will 1 Skills: Acrobatics, Perception, Spellcraft, Kn (Arcana), Intimidate, Plus 1 more to dabble.
Feats @1: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot. If you can survive your first session and buy a strength bow, you are a fully viable archer. Your combat strategy is Full Attack (+4/4, d8+4), counting your PB and Arcane Pool enhancement bonuses.
@3: Precise Shot, Arcane Accuracy.
Arcane Accuracy isn't good for much, honestly (remember: 3+ of your pool are devoted to weapon powerups). Consider the Hexcrafter arcana, if you read that ability as kicking in at L3.
@5: Arcane Strike, Iron Will
Here's another reason why Arcane Accuracy isn't that great-- you can't use it with arcane strike. At this level with a vanilla +1 CLB (Str +2) you fire at +8/8 (3BAB+4Dex-2RS+1PB1Enh+1Enh) and deal d8+d6+7(Fiery+1Enh+1Enh+2Str+2ArcaneStrike+1PB)=15/shot
@6: Spell Blending (Gravity Bow, Charm Person)
Enlarge Person+Gravity Bow add an extra d8 damage for -2 to hit for a known boss fight. Charm Person is for Society objectives.
@7: Deadly Aim; @9: Manyshot, Hasted Assault (Or Spell Blending). The more melee you have, the less useful hasted assault is. Very good utility spells are available (Suggestion!)
@11: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization @12: Spell Blending (Or Hasted Assault). Awesome utility spells are available, such as Charm Monster and Lesser Geas.
Killing People at Level 12:
Max Damage Configuration: After Haste (Swift or AOE), To Hit 17x2/17/17/12, Damage 48/shot
You can trade up to 15 damage/shot for up to 8 bonus to hit, which would look like:
Max Accuracy Configuration: After Haste (Swift or AOE), To Hit 25x2/25/25/20, Damage 33/shot
Attack bonus Calculation: BAB 9 -2(RS)-3 (DA) +7(Dex 20, +4 Dex Item) +3 (Greater Magic Weapon) +1PB Shot+1WF+1Haste= +17x2+17/+17/+12 to hit. To increase accuracy: arcane accuracy (+3 to hit, -4 to damage, burns a scarce resource), arcane pool to +2 enhancement +d6 (+2 to hit, -5 to damage); don't use deadly aim (+3 to hit, -6 to damage).
Damage Bonus Calculation: 2d6(Gravity Bow) +3d6(Fiery+Shock+Frost)+2d6 (Holy)+d6 (Flame Arrow)+4 (Str)+2 (Weapon Spec)+4(Arcane Strike)+3 (Enhancement)+6 (Deadly Aim)+1 PB Shot= 8d6+20=48 damage per shot.
Caveats: A) You'll often give up damage for accuracy, especially against foes with some energy resistance. 40 damage/arrow is probably more typical. B) Flame arrow may be overkill, but I've had very few fights per day in PS. It will often last two fights. C) You either cast haste on the party round 1 or use Hasted Assault (-4 damage/arrow).
Life at Level 12
Your saves are middle-of-the-road and AC is nothing special, but touch is healthy with a +7 Dex bonus. HP 99 is also nothing special, but this assumes no +Con item. Prepping defensive spells is a good idea, obviously, but mostly your spells are intended for utility for you and the party. Your sustained damage is heavy and not particularly spell dependent, though you will spend many of your L1 slots on gravity bow.
Looks viable to me, but perhaps I'm overlooking some thing(s).....
EDIT: Statblock: Human Magus 12
Str 18 (14+4 Enhancement) Dex 24 (18+2Level+4 Enhancement) Con 13(+1 Level) Int 18 (16+2 Enhancement) Wis 7 Cha 7
HP 99 AC 27(+7 [Dex] +4 [Mage Armor] +4 [Mithral Buckler +3] +2 [Ring]) Touch AC 23 Flat-Footed AC 20 Initiative +9
Fortitude 14 Reflex 14 Will 12
Traits: Reactive, Indomitable Faith
Feats: PB Shot [H], Rapid Shot [C1], Precise Shot [C3] Arcane Strike [M5], Iron Will [C5], Deadly Aim [C7] Manyshot [C9], Weapon Focus (CLB)[C11], Weapon Spec (CLB)[M11]
Arcana: Arcane Accuracy [M3], Spell Blending (Gravity Bow, Charm Person) [M6], Hasted Assault [M9], Spell Blending (To Taste-- Charm Monster?) [M12]
Skills: Perception +9, Kn (Arcana) +19, Acrobatics +19, Intimidate +13, Spellcraft +19, Fly +15, Knowledge (Local) +11
BAB: 9. Max Damage Attack Sequence: 17x2/17/17/12, 8d6+20
Max Accuracy Attack Sequence (Burn 1 Arcane Pool): 25x2/25/25/20, 6d6+12
Assumed Equipment: Cloak of Resistance +3, Mithral Buckler +3, Ring of Protection +2, Enhancement Items (Str+4, Dex+4, Int +2), 2 Lesser Rods of Extend, Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic)
Assumed Buffs: Greater Magic Weapon (24HR), Mage Armor (24HR), Gravity Bow (24M, but L1), Flame Arrow (4HR), Haste (Cast in R1 while enhancing bow; 12R). All spells except Haste pre-cast and extended via rod.
