I thought about that, but as my edit (that I totally understand if you missed) points out stunning fist isnt a free add on, you cant just throw it onto every attack you make. If you could I could see more apeal.
That's fair. I generally see it as compounding instead of being a single chance. I see Stunning Fist as an add-on instead of a primary ability. It's nice when it works but isn't necessary.
When I say it's an add-on I mean that even if it doesn't work, you still did something. You still have to hit and you can add the Stunning Fist on top of that. Hitting is the primary thing here. And I also wouldn't use Stunning Fist in every combat. I know that the Age of Worms campaign I'm running has plenty of opportunities for Stunning Fist to be very effective and to be completely ineffective.
No. I didn't know how to calculate that. I used a DPR spreadsheet I found for the DPR but I'm not a math wizard so I just assumed that the first attack hit to give the monk the best chance available. Everything else was in the enemy's favor. Now that I think about it, Stunning Fist (and abilities like it) should be allowed to be declared after the attack is successful but that would be a house rule.
That will make most of those worse then a coin flips chance then, ouch, i was never good with probability but I know it isnt helping.
I cant honestly agree on the usefulness with these numbers, if they work in your campaigns I can see why they sound useful, I play pretty straightforeward to how the book expects you too however and probability says this guy is dead weight.
Keep in mind that I calculated everything against an equal CR opponent. Against lower CR opponents, even dropping CR by 1 or 2, can make a huge difference. Generally the battles I set up for my group involve more than one opponent. This greatly increases the effectiveness of some classes, like the monk. I have seen a monk surrounded by 4 opponents, trip them all, and everyone take an attack of opportunity against the downed opponents. It's all in the campaign.
That's the problem with these types of tests. Certain things become less useful against certain enemies. Color Spray (a great level 1 spell) is next to useless in an adventure that is focused on undead. It doesn't invalidate the sorcerer even if it is a spell known. It just means that he needs to change tactics. It also means that he should swap out that spell later if the campaign continues down that style.
I was assuming that the monk was in a party of 4 or more. No one is expected to take out the enemy in 2 rounds, especially not one that isn't supposed to hit as hard as the fighter or barbarian.
Oh I understand that, I was just asking what the target is for DPR that would be considered PAR for a character to have at each level. While 2HKO is crazy, this is ofcourse against a single enemy just wailing on him.
In an encounter with more than just one BBEG, the amount of HP increases substantially, so the number of rounds increase, but it's still a good question to have a solid answer to, especially since it can help determine where some classes might be lacking. Which in turn helps us give proper suggestions to Developers on how to fix things. It can also help GMs build encounters. If he knows everyone is hitting at a certain DPR, then he can make combat more challenging by creating interesting situations, or increaseing / decreasing the number of baddies, or buffing some of the weaker minions so they actually pose a sufficient threat (or non-threat)
And I'm kinda miffed about the whole "Monk is not supposed to hit as hard as a fighter" schtic. I think each Melee oriented class should at least be able to hit PAR DPR, with more dedicated Classes being able to hit crazier values that reach into 1HKO against CR+. But those 1HKO characters relly on carefull building, or a glaring weakness, both, or even some tasty cheese.
Please show me where the rules as written say that I cannot stack the benefit from Brass Knuckles with the Amulet of Mighty Fists, provided I am not taking an enhancement bonus with both.
The rules are that using Brass Knuckles, you can use your unarmed strike damage.
That is USING YOUR BRASS KNUCKLES. I.e., a weapon. Not using your UA.
Amulet of Mighty Fists applies to your unarmed strikes. It does not apply to your brass knuckle strikes.
Your UA damage is a function of your class and has nothing to do with the amulet.
They don't stack.
The primary reason I bring this up is that if you allow the stacking, you're going to have some monk waltzing around with +19 of weapon bonuses on his attacks...which is clearly broken.
The monk is no more entitled to Mighty Fists working on his knuckles then a fighter is with a sword.
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The main reason I draw the line on Mage Armor is that is likely a level 1 wand, and will only last an hour. That means you have to a) use it every hour and drain it in several days or b) not have it active before a fight.
Be realistic. You could get away with it for an arena build, which comes down to consumables. In real life, you want that AC up, all the time.
Pick the amulet or the knuckles, ditch the other, and buy the bracers for an even comparison.
And the fighter would be more likely to go with a wand of shield of faith or something.
==Aelryinth
I was assuming that the monk was in a party of 4 or more. No one is expected to take out the enemy in 2 rounds, especially not one that isn't supposed to hit as hard as the fighter or barbarian.Oh I understand that, I was just asking what the target is for DPR that would be considered PAR for a character to have at each level. While 2HKO is crazy, this is ofcourse against a single enemy just wailing on him.
In an encounter with more than just one BBEG, the amount of HP increases substantially, so the number of rounds increase, but it's still a good question to have a solid answer to, especially since it can help determine where some classes might be lacking. Which in turn helps us give proper suggestions to Developers on how to fix things. It can also help GMs build encounters. If he knows everyone is hitting at a certain DPR, then he can make combat more challenging by creating interesting situations, or increaseing / decreasing the number of baddies, or buffing some of the weaker minions so they actually pose a sufficient threat (or non-threat)
And I'm kinda miffed about the whole "Monk is not supposed to hit as hard as a fighter" schtic. I think each Melee oriented class should at least be able to hit PAR DPR, with more dedicated Classes being able to hit crazier values that reach into 1HKO against CR+. But those 1HKO characters relly on carefull building, or a glaring weakness, both, or even some tasty cheese.
If the monk hits as hard as the fighter, the fighter should have all good saves and increasing movement rate, at the very least, as well as scaling damage with weapons.
==Aelryinth
When I say it's an add-on I mean that even if it doesn't work, you still did something. You still have to hit and you can add the Stunning Fist on top of that. Hitting is the primary thing here. And I also wouldn't use Stunning Fist in every combat. I know that the Age of Worms campaign I'm running has plenty of opportunities for Stunning Fist to be very effective and to be completely ineffective.
Only problem is the less you use it the worse your chances, so not using it every round in a fight where it is effective is hurting you more. Not to mention it is most effective on hard to hit high fortitude types, so if you are saving it for them your chances get even lower.
No. I didn't know how to calculate that. I used a DPR spreadsheet I found for the DPR but I'm not a math wizard so I just assumed that the first attack hit to give the monk the best chance available. Everything else was in the enemy's favor. Now that I think about it, Stunning Fist (and abilities like it) should be allowed to be declared after the attack is successful but that would be a house rule.
Keep in mind that I calculated everything against an equal CR opponent. Against lower CR opponents, even dropping CR by 1 or 2, can make a huge difference. Generally the battles I set up for my group involve more than one opponent. This greatly increases the effectiveness of some classes, like the monk. I have seen a monk surrounded by 4 opponents, trip them...¡That will make most of those worse then a coin flips chance then, ouch, i was never good with probability but I know it isnt helping.
I cant honestly agree on the usefulness with these numbers, if they work in your campaigns I can see why they sound useful, I play pretty straightforeward to how the book expects you too however and probability says this guy is dead weight.
Except your one stunning fist a round is even worse when there are multiple opponents, tripping can be useful but you can find my earlier list of the types of things not hindered by tripping or are flat out immune. The multiple opponent thing would be better for a maneuver monk, but i havent seen a very effective one that doesnt just completely stink at providing any damage.
For reference (so no one makes assumptions about the way encounters are set up in my group) usually battles involve one equal cr opponent and 6-15 much lower cr opponents or two cr-1 opponents and 6-15 lower ones. Most of the time we spend the battle fighting through tk clash with the big guy hurting us. You would think a manueverable monk would help here but he can never do anything worthwhile when he gets there (as shown by the low chance of success on cr equal opponents in your build)
Oh I understand that, I was just asking what the target is for DPR that would be considered PAR for a character to have at each level. While 2HKO is crazy, this is ofcourse against a single enemy just wailing on him.
I was assuming that the monk was in a party of 4 or more. No one is expected to take out the enemy in 2 rounds, especially not one that isn't supposed to hit as hard as the fighter or barbarian.
Which I did take into account by figuring DPR for the monk and the expected values for a monster at the appropriate level. You'll notice that the monk runs about 50% or slightly better most of the time. Sure, it may take the monk 4 rounds while it takes the fighter 2 but the monk still lives. He just takes a beating doing it. Good thing he can heal himself.
In an encounter with more than just one BBEG, the amount of HP increases substantially, so the number of rounds increase, but it's still a good question to have a solid answer to, especially since it can help determine where some classes might be lacking. Which in turn helps us give proper suggestions to Developers on how to fix things. It can also help GMs build encounters. If he knows everyone is hitting at a certain DPR, then he can make combat more challenging by creating interesting situations, or increaseing / decreasing the number of baddies, or buffing some of the weaker minions so they actually pose a sufficient threat (or non-threat)
But you can't base all classes on DPR. DPR only matters for classes that are meant to be damage dealers. I wouldn't look at a wizard's or bard's DPR to see how well they handle combat. DPR isn't their role.
And I'm kinda miffed about the whole "Monk is not supposed to hit as hard as a fighter" schtic. I think each Melee oriented class should at least be able to hit PAR DPR, with more dedicated Classes being able to hit crazier values that reach into 1HKO against CR+. But those 1HKO characters relly on carefull building, or a glaring weakness, both, or even some tasty cheese.
The monk is not meant to be a front line fighter like the fighter and barbarian. I think this is one of the problems people have with the class. They see it as one thing but it plays as another.
Clearly, to be playable, the monk must deal comparable amounts of damage to the highest DPR class in the game while also trouncing them in defences, survivability, skills, mobility and speed. Silly me.
How constructive, same statement as always by taking things out of context. This is why I prefer conversing with bob. We get somewhere most of the time because no one makes snide remarks
Clearly, to be playable, the monk must deal comparable amounts of damage to the highest DPR class in the game while also trouncing them in defences, survivability, skills, mobility and speed. Silly me.
I guess I'll just respond to everyone here:
There is a difference between being able to deal enough damage to handle a combat encounter, being able to turn a BBEG into stardust in under six seconds, and being unplayable.
At no point did I say that monks should deal the same amount of DPR as a fighter at all times, just that both monks and fighters as melee damage characters should at least be able to easily contribute the minimum necessary to be able to handle a combat encounter at CR. This is what it means to be PAR. To go beyond PAR is a different discussion.
I also asked what constitutes PAR, and was told the initial idea I had (Kill one CR+0 monster in two rounds using average DRP) was a bad metric. I'm OK with it being a bad metric, but I'm the kinda person who'd also like an actual alternative to what I proposed, just so I have a better idea on whot to evaluate things.
On Bards and Wizards: DPR can be dealt in more ways that just attacks, Fireball, and Magic Missile. Haste (spell both Bards and Wizards share) increases DPR, as does Slow. Infact getting both off is kinda nasty for action economy, AC and attack. But that's the world of buffs, and buffs are kinda an obvious round about solution to DPR. Summons are another obvious one.
But what about things that arent obvious? Compulsion effects can increase DPR by in essence neutralizing the need to chew through a monster's HD, or even having the monsters attack each other. A well placed wall of stone can cordon off a group of monsters that aren't strong enough to break through.
Combat maneuvers like trip and sunder help increas AC, and Attack in around about ways, while grapple can potentially neutralize casters.
And even certain skill checks like diplomacy and intimidate can increase the number of allies/decrease the number of enemies.
All of those things in the ir own way, deal DPR.
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Clearly, to be playable, the monk must deal comparable amounts of damage to the highest DPR class in the game while also trouncing them in defences, survivability, skills, mobility and speed. Silly me.How constructive, same statement as always by taking things out of context. This is why I prefer conversing with bob. We get somewhere most of the time because no one makes snide remarks
It is factual, however.
The monk has all high saves, immunities to poison and disease, etc...and that is being pushed to the side as a "yeah but can they out damage the damage class!"
It's like saying Bards suck because they can't cast as well as wizards, while ignoring all of the other things Bards can do that Wizards can't.
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I'm sorry for the sarcasm but myself and others have posted various, perfectly playable and viable monk builds and the same thing is being said over and over in dozens of different ways- they should be doing more damage like a fighter does.
I appreciate that 3.x DND is offence heavy, with high initiatives and massive damage output often being the best defence. But whats the use in the highest DPR fighter if his defences are so poor he can easily be turned against a party, meaning that lovely DPR is blenderising your party. If he is whittled down by fireballs and blasting spells, and high damage ray builds that only miss him on a 1? If hes asleep and missing the fight altogether? If he regularily can't act in surprise rounds because his perception score sucks?
What i'm essentially saying is, those who think monks are non viable need a new argument. I'm genuinelly interested in discussing why people state they are so inferior to other non-casters, but with everything else a monk gets doing less damage than some of the other martial classes is acceptable.
The only other argument i've seen of merit is the often touted 'high maneuvrability but relies on being static to put out good damage'. This is a problem faced by most melee characters, but the high maneuvrability helps to enable a full attack faster than the other melee classes (this advantage is lessened dependent on magic items and caster support at migh to high levels). Archers on a high balcony? The melee monk can be on them in six seconds with a running leap, while the fighter may take two to three turns to slog up the stairs. Opponents a large distance away? High speed again means the monk is full attacking earlier. Access to several 'improved' CMB feats as bonus feats means the monk has something decent to do with his single attack he'll start off doing after closing with the enemy (if not a stunning fist).
It is factual, however.
The monk has all high saves, immunities to poison and disease, etc...and that is being pushed to the side as a "yeah but can they out damage the damage class!"
Those are not unique to the monk. Paladins get immunities and 2 good saves, plus CHA to saves. Rangers have 2 good saves and evasion.
Immunities and saves are great, but also GM dependent. When I played my monk, disease and poison never came up. Do I think this is always the case? No, and I know in one of the Paizo adventure paths, Disease is a big deal, so the monk's ability become hella sweet there.
Edit: At no point did I say monks were non-viable. In fact, I didn't even make the argument that monks and fighters should blenderize at all times. I'm just wanting to know what is considered PAR, or baseline, or minimum to contribute to combat.
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It is factual, however.
The monk has all high saves, immunities to poison and disease, etc...and that is being pushed to the side as a "yeah but can they out damage the damage class!"
Those are not unique to the monk. Paladins get immunities and 2 good saves, plus CHA to saves. Rangers have 2 good saves and evasion.
Immunities and saves are great, but also GM dependent. When I played my monk, disease and poison never came up. Do I think this is always the case? No, and I know in one of the Paizo adventure paths, Disease is a big deal, so the monk's ability become hella sweet there.
Edit: At no point did I say monks were non-viable. In fact, I didn't even make the argument that monks and fighters should blenderize at all times. I'm just wanting to know what is considered PAR, or baseline, or minimum to contribute to combat.
That is 2 good saves not three. That is low movement and armor check penalties because of full plate, as opposed to high movement and no armor.
If I stun the big baddie, I am contributing in combat. If I am able to get to the big baddie in the first round while the fighter is still far away, that is contributing in combat. If I am able to soak a fireball and take no damage, that is contributing in combat.
Etc...
The fact that they can't damage as well as fighter does not equal they don't contribute.
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Played my monk last night. Unfortunately, the session was quite a bit of talking, but we did get one combat. Also unfortunately, it was against a pair of air elementals, and with the six other PCs, it was hard to get into melee with the enemy. Shurikens missed due to Improved Invisibility, so I dragged the noble who was under attack out of harms way. Ki pool came in handy, along with Mobility, buffing me to 27 AC against the AoO, keeping me from taking any damage. Once I got into melee, I was able to grapple the remaining elemental long enough for the party to defeat it. Can't say that was a fair test-drive, but I won't get the chance to play again until after redeployment, so we'll have to wait and see.
That is 2 good saves not three. That is low movement and armor check penalties because of full plate, as opposed to high movement and no armor.If I stun the big baddie, I am contributing in combat. If I am able to get to the big baddie in the first round while the fighter is still far away, that is contributing in combat. If I am able to soak a fireball and take no damage, that is contributing in combat.
Etc...
The fact that they can't damage as well as fighter does not equal they don't contribute.
Yeah, stuns and combat maneuvers are great, TOZ's post is an imperical example of it, and my post right before the one you quoted specifically talk about other forms of combat contribution.
However, this comes in the form of proactive things the monk can do, such as attack, skill checks, stunning fist, ki-magic etc. They also get no pentaly to non-lethal attacks which is nifty.
My main concern now is what constitutes minimum effectiveness. What is the baseline DPR (which comes in many forms, not just strait damage and attacks) needed to contribute in a party of adventurere.
@TOZ: I'm interested in seeing your monk build. Also, where do you plan on taking that character in terms of feat selection etc.
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@TOZ: I'm interested in seeing your monk build. Also, where do you plan on taking that character in terms of feat selection etc.
Mobility was actually a compromise feat, due to not being able to take Improved Trip or Disarm until 6th level. I went with Monk of the Sacred Mountain because I wasn't sure UM was allowed yet. Deny Death is a tempting prospect for when it is. And since I took Mobility, and can't get the other Improved feats yet, I figure Spring Attack will be good for harrier tactics like I used last night. Only instead of dragging wounded nobles, I'll be Stunning/tripping/disarming badguys.
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Played my monk last night. Unfortunately, the session was quite a bit of talking, but we did get one combat. Also unfortunately, it was against a pair of air elementals, and with the six other PCs, it was hard to get into melee with the enemy. Shurikens missed due to Improved Invisibility, so I dragged the noble who was under attack out of harms way. Ki pool came in handy, along with Mobility, buffing me to 27 AC against the AoO, keeping me from taking any damage. Once I got into melee, I was able to grapple the remaining elemental long enough for the party to defeat it. Can't say that was a fair test-drive, but I won't get the chance to play again until after redeployment, so we'll have to wait and see.
I am very much looking forward to your playtest, as you are always a straight shooter.
Good luck keeping us safe and thanks for your service, by the way.
Agreed, I'm also interested to see how this turns out.
Stay safe, and come back to us in one living piece.
I've been following this thread off and on over the past little while, because I'm going to start playing a Monk shortly. At the risk of my sanity, I figured I'd post my build, and I'll update as interest and results dictate.
We use 25-point buy, so that makes it a little easier at least. Apologies if the formatting is a little off, I haven't done this before.
LG Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +3
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DEFENSE
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AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 13 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 11 (1d8+2, +1 fav. class)
Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +5
Defensive Abilities Deep Warrior
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +3/+3 BAB +1; Grapple +6 (+11 to maintain)
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STATISTICS
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 5
Base Atk +0; CMB +4 (+6 Grappling); CMD 20 (22 vs Grapple)
Feats Dodge, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 13)
Traits Fortified Drinker, Poverty Striken
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +8, Survival +8
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ AC Bonus +3, Ancient Enmity, Craftsman, Deep Warrior, Hardy, Slow and Steady, Stability, Stonecunning +2, Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d6)
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 13) - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Ancient Emnity +1 racial bonus to attacks against creatures with the Elf subtype.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Craftsman +2 to Craft and Profession checks involving metal or stone.
Deep Warrior Vs. Abberations, +2 dodge bonus to AC and +2 CMB to grapple.
Hardy +2 racial bonus to Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 13) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
I plan on using both the Monk of the Sacred Mountain and Drunken Master Monk archetypes from the APG. The last one will be part of the RP for why his CHA is so very abysmal; he's a drunk, even by Dwarven standards. The character traits and racial abilities were also chosen primarily for background purposes rather than optimization.
With this build I'm getting +4 to hit with unarmed strikes (+3/+3 flurry), dealing 1d6+4 damage. The party also has a Bard and a Wizard who might be willing to cast Mage Armor on me every so often (though he is an Elf, so it might take a bit for me to trust him).
Should be fun to give it a try, and as long as this thread stays reasonably amicable I'll post progress as we go along.
Looks pretty good for starting out. I for sure look forward to seeing this guy progress.
One thing to note - and only take this suggestion if you're willing to break flavor - Brass Knuckles are cheaper than AMoF for the purpose of weapon enhancements. While it means you only get to say my monk punches the hell out of baddy, it'll save you lots of money in the long run.
One the flip side, AoMF preserves fluff, and depending on how much your DM is willing - could just make AoMF cost the same for an appropriate weapon enhancement, and bump the limit to 10.
It is factual, however.
The monk has all high saves, immunities to poison and disease, etc...and that is being pushed to the side as a "yeah but can they out damage the damage class!"
Those are not unique to the monk. Paladins get immunities and 2 good saves, plus CHA to saves. Rangers have 2 good saves and evasion.
Immunities and saves are great, but also GM dependent. When I played my monk, disease and poison never came up. Do I think this is always the case? No, and I know in one of the Paizo adventure paths, Disease is a big deal, so the monk's ability become hella sweet there.
Edit: At no point did I say monks were non-viable. In fact, I didn't even make the argument that monks and fighters should blenderize at all times. I'm just wanting to know what is considered PAR, or baseline, or minimum to contribute to combat.
That is 2 good saves not three. That is low movement and armor check penalties because of full plate, as opposed to high movement and no armor.
If I stun the big baddie, I am contributing in combat. If I am able to get to the big baddie in the first round while the fighter is still far away, that is contributing in combat. If I am able to soak a fireball and take no damage, that is contributing in combat.
Etc...
The fact that they can't damage as well as fighter does not equal they don't contribute.
Itd be cool if you found my post about using one of the three build types posted in this thread (or propose another) and the probabilities required (in my oppinion, please explain why or why not you think they are fair) to make them viable.
Do the same exercise as loblaw (no not all twenty levels, just two or three spread out) and see if you can build a more functional one and back your claims up.
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Cirno seems to be under the false understanding that Stunning Fist and Combat Maneuvers are unreliable and can't hold a candle to a full attack action. He may think himself quite the powergamer but does not seem to understand much outside of modules and theorycraft. I have been in dozens of games where maneuverability and control have won us the battle.
I think that a lot depends on your opponent. Combat Maneuvers and Stunning Fist can be very useful when fighting humans and other humanoid races, but there are plenty of monsters that have huge Fort save bonuses and CMDs. Against those, you're not likely to be effective.
So long as Combat Maneuvers and Stunning Fist are tools in your toolbox, you may be okay, but if you're relying on those things working then there are a lot of creatures that you're going to have a great deal of difficulty affecting.
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It is factual, however.
The monk has all high saves, immunities to poison and disease, etc...and that is being pushed to the side as a "yeah but can they out damage the damage class!"
Those are not unique to the monk. Paladins get immunities and 2 good saves, plus CHA to saves. Rangers have 2 good saves and evasion.
Immunities and saves are great, but also GM dependent. When I played my monk, disease and poison never came up. Do I think this is always the case? No, and I know in one of the Paizo adventure paths, Disease is a big deal, so the monk's ability become hella sweet there.
Edit: At no point did I say monks were non-viable. In fact, I didn't even make the argument that monks and fighters should blenderize at all times. I'm just wanting to know what is considered PAR, or baseline, or minimum to contribute to combat.
That is 2 good saves not three. That is low movement and armor check penalties because of full plate, as opposed to high movement and no armor.
If I stun the big baddie, I am contributing in combat. If I am able to get to the big baddie in the first round while the fighter is still far away, that is contributing in combat. If I am able to soak a fireball and take no damage, that is contributing in combat.
Etc...
The fact that they can't damage as well as fighter does not equal they don't contribute.
Itd be cool if you found my post about using one of the three build types posted in this thread (or propose another) and the probabilities required (in my oppinion, please explain why or why not you think they are fair) to make them viable.
Do the same exercise as loblaw (no not all twenty levels, just two or three spread out) and see if you can build a more functional one and back your claims up.
I did, up through third level. And since no one commented, I stopped.
What level would you like me to take it up to?
For those of us who don't know what the requirements are, they're on page 12.
SoD asked for one of the following:
1. High damage Monk
2. Monk who's DC for Stunning Fist was around 50%
3. Monk who had an array of useful skills such that he always had something to do, and do it like a boss.
I'd build a monk that satisfies #1, but I'd like to know what is deemed acceptable damage.
For those of us who don't know what the requirements are, they're on page 12.
SoD asked for one of the following:
1. High damage Monk
2. Monk who's DC for Stunning Fist was around 50%
3. Monk who had an array of useful skills such that he always had something to do, and do it like a boss.I'd build a monk that satisfies #1, but I'd like to know what is deemed acceptable.
Damage is hard to call, id say if you can kill it before it can kill you then your doing sufficient damage.
@ciretose: do you want to give me the probabilities of you landing a maneuver or stunning blow on the third level version? Maybe take him up to 6th or what ever if you have the time.
The monk as a class is very campaign dependent. These things work greatly in favor of the monk:
- The campaign is fairly low-level. At lower levels, combat maneuvers are easier to use since there's rarely freedom of movement, few flying opponents and so on.
- The campaign is focused on humanoids rather than monsters. Same again here, monks works well against humans and elves - not against giant centipedes and such. Also, humanoids more often take prisoners - and there's nowhere where the monk shines more than in a prison escape scenario.
- The campaign is more urban than wilderness. In urban areas, weapons might often be forbidden or limited, and having decent dex-skill scores is often useful. A monk will have an easier time getting around than a fighter, even though monks dump cha.
- The campaign has a lot of dangers that aren't brute force enemies or spells. If the campaign is heavy in traps, poisons, diseases, lava pits, underwater caves and so on, that works in the monk's favor.
- The campaign is high point buy. The monk is REALLY MAD.
I wanted to call more attention to this post because I think it makes a good point I haven't seen made frequently -- that how good a monk looks depends a lot on the specifics of the campaign and thus they have something of a feast or famine situation going on.
In that respect it's a lot like the situation the core 3.5 rogue was in.
All I have to say is bonus feats
All I have to say is bonus feats
bonus feats dont make up for being MAD
Unless there's a feat that lets you add Dex or Wis to damage (there isn't)
Fighters get bonus feats too.
And here is the intrepid monk I promised. If I messed up somewhere, please point me in the right direction
MonkDamage McMaster
Oread Monk of the Four Winds and Sacred Mountain
STR: 22 (+6) (15 base, +1 level, +2 racial, +4 Belt)
DEX: 12 (+1)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 8 (-1)
WIS: 18 (+4) (13 base, +1 level, +2 Racial, +2 Hat)
CHA: 10 (0)
HP: 102 (11d8 + 44)
AC: 25 (10 +4 Wis, +1 Dex, +2 Natural, +4 Monk, +1 Dodge, +2 Armor, +1 Deflection)
DR 1/-
Attack: +19 (8 +6 STR, +4 Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus)
Flurry: +20/+20/+15/+15/+10 (11 -2 TWF, +6 STR, +4 Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus)
Brass Knuckle Damage: 19 (2d8 +6 STR, +4 Enhancement)
Elemental Fist Damage: 10.5 (3d6)
Special Abilities
Elemental Fist
Iron Monk
Bastion Stance
Iron Limb Defense
Adamantine Monk
Ki Pool - Lawful
Maneuver Training
Fast Movement
Still Mind
Purity of Body
Wholeness of Body
Diamond Body
Feats
Lvl 1: Intimidating Prowess
Lvl 1: Dodge
Lvl 2: Improved Grapple
Lvl 2: Toughness
Lvl 3: Weapon Focus (Brass Knuckles)
Lvl 5: Power Attack
Lvl 6: Improved Combat Maneuver (doesn't matter)
Lvl 7: Dazzling Display
Lvl 9: Shatter Defenses
Lvl 10: Medusa's Wrath
Lvl 11: Curnogeon Smash
Equipment:
Gear: (80,000 gp)
Belt of +4 str (16,000)
Hat of +2 wis (4,000)
Bracers of armor +2 (4,000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000)
Haversack (2,000)
Monk's Robe - (13,000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000)
Brass Knuckles +4 (36,000)
2,000 in savings.
tl;dr -- I used the DPR Olympic's character creation rules, going to lvl 11, because that's when the build actually start to work. This is kinda the equivalent of making a character using 15 point buy.
I use the Curnogeon Smash - Shatter Defenses - Medusa's Wrath Combo to basically render my foes flat footed, and therefore at the mercy of my flurry of blows. Elemental fist as RAW is usable with any weapon, so no issue with Brass Knucks getting in the way. Sacred mountain is used to shore up defenses.
Depending on the situation, McMaster is able to deal the following DPR
Regular Flurry w/o Elemental Fist --
Normal: 59.85
Ki: 75.81
MW+Ki: 107.73
Regular Flurry with Elemental Fist --
Normal: 68.25
Ki: 84.21
MW+Ki: 116.13
Power Flurry w/o Elemental Fist --
Normal: 59.0625
Ki: 76.125
MW+Ki: 110.25
Elemental Power Flurry --
Normal: 65.8875
Ki: 82.95
MW+Ki: 117.075
And just for fun, if you add Haste to an Elemental Power Flurry that pops a Ki and triggers Medusa's Wrath, DPR rockets to 146.475.
For Reference, it takes an average of 72.5 damage to kill a single CR+0 monster in two hits.
I could probably eek out a little more damage (and by a little I actually mean a lot) by taking attack traits like Heirloom weapon (this feat specifically increase DPR by anywhere between 5 to 11). However the problem with this build is getting to lvl 11. the Monks 3/4 BAB prevents it from naturally easing into this character, so things get a little hairy until basically lvl 11, where you rock house.
My first question is, what is an oread?
Also, this may just be me being bad at probability but your chance to hit (if im correct that AC 25 is the average at this level, i dont have my book) is 85%/85%/50%/50%/25 did you use the dpr olympics method of dpr calculation? Because it seems a little high your chances to hit. Again no offense, just wondering what method you used, i could be totally off.
also... what is an oread?? otherwise so far so good, turns out monks might be frontline fighters xD ill finish checking and get back to you on anything else.
Edit: although the "might not make it this far" part is concerning, can we level him down to five or six and see the difference?
My first question is, what is an oread?
Also, this may just be me being bad at probability but your chance to hit (if im correct that AC 25 is the average at this level, i dont have my book) is 85%/85%/50%/50%/25 did you use the dpr olympics method of dpr calculation? Because it seems a little high your chances to hit. Again no offense, just wondering what method you used, i could be totally off.
also... what is an oread?? otherwise so far so good, turns out monks might be frontline fighters xD ill finish checking and get back to you on anything else.
Edit: although the "might not make it this far" part is concerning, can we level him down to five or six and see the difference?
For whatever reason, my post gets eaten up by the message Board.
First and foremost, and Oread is a Bestiary 2 PC race, they're effectively Earth Elemental Kin.
My chances to hit on a flurry are 80%/%80/55%/55%/%30. Successfully hitting on a 5+/5+/10+/10+/15+. I used the DPR Olympic's method for DPR calculation.Target AC to hit is 25. It's entirely possible that I messed up my arithmetic.
My attack bonus for flurry comes from +11 Monk BAB -2 for Two Weapon Fighting, +6 for strength, +4 from the weapon enhancement, and +1 Weapon Focus. This value goes up if the opponent had any Dex bonus to AC once they go flat footed from Shatter defenses, but that's too variable to calculate.
Actually, I think he's fine 1 through 6. I actually once played a Monk of the Four Winds/Sacred Mountain, and while not the specific build above, was pretty ok with getting to level 6. (in fact lvl6 was when my DM was kicked out of school, so that's where the campaign ended.)
It's mostly lvl 7 through 10 that I'm worried about. All of the feats you'll be getting are a tax (Dazzling Display) or cannot be used until level 11. (Medusa's Wrath, Shatter Defenses). However, it's entirely possible that during this time you focus a little more in utilizing the combat maneuvers you took feats in (Grapple, +1 other), contributing to combat in a less direct damage way until lvl 11, where you're back in the fray.
My first question is, what is an oread?Oread
Thank you, wow though some of those are a character level by themself
Edit: @jeranimus: i believe you may have it right no worries, I love those archtypes (although we cant mix them in my group so I couldnt do this build) good to know the monk can be viable as a damage dealer. What kind of difference do you think would come from removing one of the archtypes? Elemental fist seems to be providing a lot of damage and mountain monk provides a lot of defense.
The monk as a class is very campaign dependent. These things work greatly in favor of the monk:
- The campaign is fairly low-level. At lower levels, combat maneuvers are easier to use since there's rarely freedom of movement, few flying opponents and so on.
- The campaign is focused on humanoids rather than monsters. Same again here, monks works well against humans and elves - not against giant centipedes and such. Also, humanoids more often take prisoners - and there's nowhere where the monk shines more than in a prison escape scenario.
- The campaign is more urban than wilderness. In urban areas, weapons might often be forbidden or limited, and having decent dex-skill scores is often useful. A monk will have an easier time getting around than a fighter, even though monks dump cha.
- The campaign has a lot of dangers that aren't brute force enemies or spells. If the campaign is heavy in traps, poisons, diseases, lava pits, underwater caves and so on, that works in the monk's favor.
- The campaign is high point buy. The monk is REALLY MAD.
I wanted to call more attention to this post because I think it makes a good point I haven't seen made frequently -- that how good a monk looks depends a lot on the specifics of the campaign and thus they have something of a feast or famine situation going on.
In that respect it's a lot like the situation the core 3.5 rogue was in.
I think this has been a problem with other classes as well. No matter how much you stick to RAW, some things just are very campaign dependent and there's not much you can do about that. It's unfortunate because a class should be able to be used with the same level of effectiveness in every RAW campaign.
Even as someone who likes the monk, I can say that there is no doubt that using mostly Bestiary monsters that the monk simply will not be able to keep up well with the combat maneuvers. The monk isn't alone in this but it stands out when it's supposed to be one of his strengths.
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Thank you, wow though some of those are a character level by themselfMy first question is, what is an oread?Oread
I personally do not see how the Oread is so powerful...the stats are like every other...darkvision, energy resistance that does not naturally increase, a 1/day spell like ability and a limited affinity feature is not OP.
Dwarves get many bonuses that easily are equal to if not just flat out stronger than what teh Oread gets...
meh
Here is a build alot like one I am playing now.
Build using PFS rules. This not a strait monk but I never build a single class build.
Race: Half-Elf, Favored classes fighter and monk. Levels: Fighter 3/Monk 4 this is a build that is ok at all levels of the build and has come into its own by level 7. You just add another four levels of monk, and one more level of fighter to be level 12. I am using weapon master fighter and Monk of the Four Winds/Ki mystic
Starting Stats Str 15+2, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Boost Str at level 4; boost Dex at levels 8 and 12. 23500gp
Stats at level 7: Str 20, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
This is a Swordsmen Build, to change to an unarmed combat build which main weapon from great sword to unarmed strike instead.
HP: 63, Ki: 6, Elemental Fist: 4, +1d6
AC: 21 (Base 1, armor +7, Dex +3, Dodge +1)
Fort +10, Reflex +9, Will +8
Speed 30 ft.
Great Sword attack +15 (2d6+13), +8 (2d6+13) or +16 (4d6+13)
Unarmed Attack +12 (1d8+9)
Guisarme Attack +13 (2d4+13) use to trip without giving an AoO
Ranseur Attack +13 (2d4+13), +15 to disarm, use to disarm without giving an AoO
Traits: Armor Expert, and Caretaker
Feats: SF (Acrobatics), WF (Great Sword), Power Attack, Furious Focus, Improved unarmed strike, Stunning Fist, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw, Lunge, Vital strike
Gear: +1 Mithral Breastplate (5200gp), mwk great sword (350)gp, mwk guisarme (309), mwk Ranseur (310), Ioun stone +1 attack (4000gp), Belt of +2 Str & +2 Dex (10000gp), Clock of Resistance +1 (1000gp), 1031gp in other non-magical gear, and 300gp in potions, with 1000gp in cash.
Skills: max acrobatics, perception, and Heal. Throw few points into climb and swim, the rest can go where you like. Be sure to get all of the kits for skills as well.
To test this character I would use Gorilla (Bestiary pg 17), Two Guards (GMG pg 260), Guard Officer (GMG pg 261), and then a Battle Mage (GMG pg 299). All of the encounters in the same day with little more than hour between encouters.
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For those of us who don't know what the requirements are, they're on page 12.
SoD asked for one of the following:
1. High damage Monk
2. Monk who's DC for Stunning Fist was around 50%
3. Monk who had an array of useful skills such that he always had something to do, and do it like a boss.I'd build a monk that satisfies #1, but I'd like to know what is deemed acceptable.
Damage is hard to call, id say if you can kill it before it can kill you then your doing sufficient damage.
@ciretose: do you want to give me the probabilities of you landing a maneuver or stunning blow on the third level version? Maybe take him up to 6th or what ever if you have the time.
To establish goal-posts, are going against the bestiary charts.
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To establish goal-posts, are going against the bestiary charts.For those of us who don't know what the requirements are, they're on page 12.
SoD asked for one of the following:
1. High damage Monk
2. Monk who's DC for Stunning Fist was around 50%
3. Monk who had an array of useful skills such that he always had something to do, and do it like a boss.I'd build a monk that satisfies #1, but I'd like to know what is deemed acceptable.
Damage is hard to call, id say if you can kill it before it can kill you then your doing sufficient damage.
@ciretose: do you want to give me the probabilities of you landing a maneuver or stunning blow on the third level version? Maybe take him up to 6th or what ever if you have the time.
Level 4-6. Again the question is am I a useful and viable member of a party. I am not trying for an optimized build (note the handy haversack and no scores under 10) but just a viable build one could actually play in a game.
4th
I’ve got 5000 Gold now, having spent 1000 on bracers last level. I’m putting most of it into the Headband of inspired wisdom +2
I get a Ki pool, so with a 18 wisdom I have 6 ki points at 4th.
I’m putting my Ability point in strength to bring me up to 19. My unarmed are not 1d8+4, hitting at +8 normally, +7/+7 flurry. And now I can add a third attack by spending a ki point. So average damage for a single attack is 8.5 and my hands are magic.
I get a +1 to AC, so now I am up to 18 (+4 Wis, +1 Dodge, +1 Dex +1 Bracers, +1 Monk). Slow fall is kind of lame, so I’m going to swap it out for Quingong Barkskin for an extra +2 for 10 minutes a level. I can also spend a ki point for another +4 in a pinch.
My hit points are up to 29.5 on average, but I’m over average AC by bestiary and I can get up to 20 for 40 minutes a day (24 for a round with a ki point)
Stunning fist save is now 16. I can go with fatigued now instead of stunned. 4th Level bestiary good save is 7, bad is 3. So save is 45/65.
Speaking of saves, I now have +5 Reflex, +5 Fort, +8 Will.
5th
10,500 WBL
I spent 5000 total up to this point (+1 Bracer 1000, +2 Headband of Wisdom 4000) so I have 5500 at this point. I’m going to pick up some +1 Brass knuckles, a handy haversack and a +1 Cloak of resistance so I’m down to about and the last 500 either sits or goes to potions or situational back up monk weapons.
I can now add my monk level to jump checks and I am immune to all diseases.
Now I’m taking power attack, so I’m now at +9 for both my regular attack and for flurry. (+3 bab + 4 Str, +1 Enhance +1 Weapon focus) doing 1d8+5 damage or average of 9.5 damage per attack with all of the above stuff. With power attack that goes to +8 doing an average if 11.5 per attack. And again if I spend a ki point I can do three attacks a round.
AC is the same, Hit points up to 36. Stunning fist is still 16, so 40/60 at this point, saves are +6, +6, +9
6th
16,000 WBL, of that I have 6500 unspent. I’ll pick up a belt of Con at this point and an ring of protection for 2000, leaving 500 for potions and such.
Bonus feat I am going for improved trip (although I also like disarm personally when you mix it with a Sai). My movement is now 50, or more than twice a fighter in medium armor.
Attack is +10 for regular and first two flurry attacks, adding a third flurry at +5. Average damage normally is still 1d8 +5, power attack goes up to -2 to attack for +4 to damage meaning a flurry is +8, +8, +3 for 1d8 + 9.
AC is now 19 normally, 22 (it is now +3) with barkskin for an hour a day, 25 with a ki point. Hit points are 48.5 thanks to the Con belt.
Stunning fist is now 17, so still 40/60. Saves are +7/+8/+10.
What kind of difference do you think would come from removing one of the archtypes?
90% of the damage actually comes from the increased number of full BAB iterative attacks that popping a Ki, and triggering Medusa's Wrath give you. In fact, just popping a Ki w/o power attack and w/o triggering MW puts you at 75.81 DPR, which will still kill a CR+0 monster in two rounds. (this is average of course, good and bad rolling will also impact your damage, but that's the nature of the game.)
Elemental fist is there mostly because it's the only monk attack that does not interfere with using a weapon like brass knuckles. It adds about 9 DPR when used, but not having it won't cripple the build. Besides Elemental Fist, the lvl 15 ability for Monk of the Four Winds gives you pounce, which is badass, or turns you into a super sayan, which is hokey.
You're correct on Sacred Mountain only applying defensive buffs, but they're pretty potent, and not being able to ever be knocked prone can result in some potentially creative applications.
To be quite honest, if given a choice between the two, I'd go with Sacred Mountain. The DPR lost at least keeps you at 2RKO, and increased innate survivability means that you can more safely take point, or enter the fray with a fighter. (Which by the way, is actually kinda important, especially if there's a dearth of front-liners in the party)
Also, I'd suggest talking to your DM, they might allow Stunning fist to work with Brass Knuckles, and if that's the case, that'll just be a nice bonus you can add on to your attacks that'll also help trigger Medusa's Wrath.
Edit: I also forgot to add - To decrease the amount of time accumulating dead feats from 3 levels to 2, take the following feat progression:
lvl 7 Curnogeion Smash
Lvl 9 Dazzling Display
Lvl 10 Medusa's Wrath
Lvl 11 Shatter Defenses
That would make it so only Dazzling Display and Medusa's Wrath are *dead* until lvl 11. Surviving 9 and 10 shouldn't be that hard right? (says the player who's never played beyond lvl. 7)
To establish goal-posts, are going against the bestiary charts.
I'm not 100% sure what this means.
ciretose wrote:
To establish goal-posts, are going against the bestiary charts.I'm not 100% sure what this means.
In the back of the Bestiary there is a chart in the Monster Creation section that shows you what the target numbers should be for a monster of any given challenge rating up to 20. The numbers aren't meant to be perfect. They are just a guideline but for these purposes it's the best you're going to get.
Besides Elemental Fist, the lvl 15 ability for Monk of the Four Winds gives you pounce, which is badass, or turns you into a super sayan, which is hokey.
Ok first you get the aspect at the 17th level and not the 15th, now which aspect turns you into a super saiyan?
Oh I see.
Well it's good that the Bestiary is full of monsters that don't follow the guidelines exactly, makes the game more interesting.
But guidelines are there for a reason, so I'm assuming the goalposts will be based of the Bestiary Charts since it constitutes what it means to be average.
I'm still interested to know what determines sufficient viability and utility for a character.
I'm also now curious to average together each monster by CR to see how precise the bestiary chart is.
Ok first you get the aspect at the 17th level and not the 15th, now which aspect turns you into a super saiyan?
Oops, my mistake. Anywho to answer your other question -
Aspect of the Ki-Rin.
Aspect of the Ki-Rin: The monk’s skin takes on a golden luminescence, and a silvery mane that cannot be bound grows atop his head. He gains a fly speed equal to his land speed, but he must end each turn on the ground. If the monk does not land by the end of his turn, he falls from whatever height he has attained. The ki-rin is honorable, honest, and self-sacrificing—a monk must be lawful good to take on the aspect of the ki-rin.
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Played my monk last night. Unfortunately, the session was quite a bit of talking, but we did get one combat. Also unfortunately, it was against a pair of air elementals, and with the six other PCs, it was hard to get into melee with the enemy. Shurikens missed due to Improved Invisibility, so I dragged the noble who was under attack out of harms way. Ki pool came in handy, along with Mobility, buffing me to 27 AC against the AoO, keeping me from taking any damage. Once I got into melee, I was able to grapple the remaining elemental long enough for the party to defeat it. Can't say that was a fair test-drive, but I won't get the chance to play again until after redeployment, so we'll have to wait and see.
Know how you feel man. Right now, its my wifes turn to be deployed, but still. Maybe you can get a group going over there?
But I think considering the amount of posts/discusion on this thread, the answer to the question I think has been answered. Monks arent bad, why else would so many people play them and defend their worth to others?
Monks arent bad, why else would so many people play them and defend their worth to others?
True, but it's still very difficult to build one. People can't build the class as they go, and it's very easy to fall into traps with the class.(at least, that's my opinion)
UM added some pretty cool stuff to the class (such as the ability to ditch slow fall), and UC will hopefully bring things that make it a little easier for this combat class to do its thing
Overall though, I don't think any of the PF base classes are bad, just require different amounts of skill and experience to build properly.
Monks arent bad, why else would so many people play them and defend their worth to others?True, but it's still very difficult to build one. People can't build the class as they go, and it's very easy to fall into traps with the class.(at least, that's my opinion)
UM added some pretty cool stuff to the class (such as the ability to ditch slow fall), and UC will hopefully bring things that make it a little easier for this combat class to do its thing
Overall though, I don't think any of the PF base classes are bad, just require different amounts of skill and experience to build properly.
Okay I went back and really looked over your monk, my first question is what is his intimidate bonus? I assume full ranks plus 6 STR so 17? If it isn't an undead or construct that gives you a 75%-55% chance to demoralize, of course demoralizing takes a standard action unless you use a feat that is in a supplement and was originally against the rules, if I give you the benefit of the doubt anyway the build appears to work. Although if the demoralize fails you have to have popped a ki point to keep up sufficient damage.
So given the feat you have at best a 75% chance to do sufficient damage without popping a ki point every round. Without the feat you pretty much have to pop a ki point every round because you will have no reliable way to hinder your opponent for MW.
Not sure how I feel about this.
After just looking back I realize you can't get MW off with this build anyway because your only attacking with brass knuckles and MW requires at least one unarmed attack to be made to activate it (brass knuckles use unarmed damage but are not themselves and unarmed strike). Without your knuckles you are at -5 to hit which pretty much kills you. Which leaves you having to pop a Ki point every round to be effective. Your thoughts?
@Ciretose: It appears you are going for a damage build because your stunning fist is nowhere near requirements (50% chance to land the attack and 60% (at best) for the stun to work ends up below 50) and you only have 1 maneuver that isn't very good (which is sad because I was hoping to see a mega maneuver build)
As far as damage goes you only hit half the time with your best attacks which is really bad, cr appropriate monsters have the same hit chances on you that you have on them except they hit harder and have around twice your HP. I don't think this qualifies as a damage build because the monster will kill you first (on average). Some insight onto what your intended tactics are would be appreciated.
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My main concern now is what constitutes minimum effectiveness.
I would suggest the minimum effectiveness for any character is the ability to contribute to the success of any encounter for as many rounds as possible while allowing the player to feel valued.
The thing with monks and many of the non full bab classes is that they rarely come across situations where they can't contribute something. That is not true of fighters or barbarians, to a lesser extent its also not true of rangers or paladins depending how they're built.
I see monks/bards/rogues as basically swappable for just this reason, though each has their own focus.
As I've always found with these pure maths threads, they don't factor in the variable of tactics or spell effects or other probability altering events in games where combats are dynamic and GM's can screw with your player through use of abilities that render you useless when you fail saves.
Monks are able to break enemy plans by maneuvering and cmb tactics. They don't waste spell slots to do it, nor need expensive magic items to be able to get it done either. In fact, they can consistantly turn up to any fight and pick exactly where and what they are going to fight rather than be dictated too. Once they have, it's hard to stop them doing it also, since their saves are high and they can run circles around most things.
When played by someone who thinks about the combat in more ways than just "Must hit" or "Which spell", a monk is truly beatuiful to see in the game. They are a class for the thinking player, not someone who just wants to do max damage. They may be difficult to play well, but they are not bad.
This is why monks are good.
curious question but. why is the fighter being used as the benchmark for damage? why not say twf rangers vs their non favored enemy?
using fighters as the benchmark seems as silly as using a paladin fighting team evil.