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This manuever based monk doesn't fill any role required of a balanced party. In effect you are designating that necessity onto others, while taking an inferior choice in aiding them.I'd qualify that slightly: the maneuver based monk is an extremely feast or famine character. It's sort of like playing a sorcerer that's all charm/domination spells and nothing else. When it has the right opponents, it looks pretty good -- and a lot of the time it's basically useless.
If you've got a party of 6 or 7 PCs, maybe you can afford a character that's useless half the time, and if that doesn't bother you as a player, more power to you.
Keep in mind the maneuver based monk gets the maneuver as a bonus feat.
One should also keep in mind all of the bonus feats the monk gets, and the fact that they get them without needing the pre-requisites.
Spring attack is generally not worth it because of the feat tax involved, but monks can get it at 10th without the pre-requisites. Same with the improved combat maneuvers. Suddenly stun and run is viable and not very expensive feat wise.
If you are only taking one feat for improved grapple and the class comes with 6 bonus feats, it isn't as if you have invested without having access to other options.
So I've invested one of my 16 (17 I'm human) in a combat maneuver...how does that mean I can't invest in anything else? Particularly since I basically get the TWF chain for free as well.
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I agree with you that the monk should be able to contribute in fighting the BBEG, but in such battles, he's got access to the buff spells cast by the rest of the party. If he's got access to those buffs, then his CMB of 16 truly is amazingly low.
What point buy are you using? I want to create an example 11th level monk.
20 point buy.
Also, what monster was the encounter? The stat block for the monster would be helpful for discussion. A one-on-one combat with an 11th level PC is CR 9. CR 9 critters average a CMD in the lower 30s. You said you're regularly running up against these low 40s critters.It is... ** spoiler omitted **
which, yes, is CR 13, although that's a 3.5 CR 13 and it probably would be more like a 12 in Pathfinder.
And, IMHO looking at what a monk should be able to do in a single combat kind of misses the point. Generally combat is a team effort, and if the monk can't contribute meaningfully against the things that are faced as a team he's subpar as a team member.
Which, for the record, was all I personally was ever trying to assert.
Another rough spot in the same session: ** spoiler omitted **
11th level monk CMB would start,obviously at 11.
Now by 11th you should have equipment that at minimum brings your strength up to 20, even assuming you didn't put skill point in strength at 4th or 8t. So that is +5 right there bringing you to 16.
And the improved versions give you at least a +2 bonus, so that is 18 and I'm not even looking at any weapon bonuses, etc...
So the 11th level monk with a 16 CMB isn't built to be a maneuver monk.
1) He can take 10 with the bonus from the Fly spell and not hit anything. Eesh. at the same time the monk in Endor has his speed cut in half by all the difficult terrain, and can't reach the archer 60' up in the air.
He can take 10 only if he's not under pressure (ie not in combat). The monk, on the other hand, can take Cloud Step and move about the forest without a care and at blinding speeds.
2) Desert Shadow, from the Qadira book, I believe? Basically the same as the rogue trick which does the same thing.
Buried in a splat book. Okay.3) Good lord, I'm making the point that two magic items of middling value completely do everything that you claim is 'special to the monk', and you don't get my point.
Except, no, you aren't. For example, take those exact same magic items and put them in the hands of a monk. But that's only a small part of what the monk can do.
The monk, on the other hand, has to pay double price for his armor protection, because his ability score bonuses to AC end in him having a sub-par AC vs an armor wearer and shield user. He's also spending money on multiple ability scores, instead of one or two, just to be viable as a combat...
Again, you're wrong. The monk has to pay a bargain basement price for his armor pretection. He buys Dex and Wis boosters and then, not only gets armor protection from them but a whole ton of other stuff in addition.
1) Oh, now he's in COMBAT moving through a forest, not just moving through the forest. While the Monk 1/day uses cloud step. Except you can take 10 on a skill check if there's no harm in your failure.
Basically, he's probably going to have an ad hoc +5 bonus on the fly check from dex and caster level...he can move, attack, and cast spells as easily as if he were walking...and basically only has to roll if he wants to fly straight up or pull a 180, which requires a 5 on the roll. And the fly spell lets you hover in place without a problem, he doesn't need wings, so he's in no danger of falling for stopping movement.In the meantime, the monk is moving at half speed through the undergrowth, as he used up his cloud step earlier in the day. wahoo.
2)It's a PF legal feat. Is there a problem with that?
3)Go ahead and take those items and put them in the hands of a monk. What does he get?
Not a lot. But it did basically render a ton of his class abilities useless or redundant. Whereas it highly complements other classes, and expands their capabilities. In short, he gains not much, and other classes gain a bunch...i.e. just about everything relating to movement he could do.
4) What? Stat increases are CHEAP?
First of all, everybody gets Dex mods, so strike that.
So, you think paying 36k for a +3 AC bonus is CHEAP? when you get +5 for 25k for armor and shields? For your 72k, I could get +5 Mithral plate, a +5 large shield, AND a +4 Dex mod item, for a total of +14 to my AC vs your +6. (+2 Mithral dex limit, +2 Dex, +5 enhancex2). You get to put your base Wis Mod and level bonus up against my Plate and Heavy Shield.
Stat mods are NOT cheap. They are some of the most expensive stuff in the game for their specific benefits...their only saving grace is hopefully getting more then one benefit off of them (as a Monk can certainly leverage with a Wis device). But for AC, nuh-uh. Pricey as heck.
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To get a great AC, the monk either has to have better stats then everyone else, or has to skimp on something...like hitting and damaging. Making monks with awesome stats who get awesome bonuses sure does look good, because MAD becomes MASynergy if you've got a lot of stats contributing towards your awesomeness. Making monks with normal stats that don't get crap for bonuses looks a lot worse.
Go on, start adding up the costs for monks to get great AC. It is not cheap. Then look at starting stats and see what a difference starting with the elite array instead of a bunch of 18 and 16's can make on a build.
The monk is more stat dependent then ANY other character, and that includes the fighter. Only charisma is not a needed stat for a monk...they can make use of everything else, and basically have 3 prime stats + Con. Even fighters only have 3 stats in need...possibly only the paladin rivals them, but most paladins can stop at a 14 cha and focus on physicals.
Probably the best thing you could do for the monk is give him extra stat bonuses at his levels, perhaps +2 to his lowest stats, to reflect his pursuit of self-perfection. That way, his stats really look pretty good at higher levels, even if they don't start out that way.
==Aelryinth
And the improved versions give you at least a +2 bonus, so that is 18 and I'm not even looking at any weapon bonuses, etc...
So the 11th level monk with a 16 CMB isn't built to be a maneuver monk.
I did say it was higher for maneuvers he had feats for.
Alternately, you could show how you'd get to the 24 CMB it would take at that level to even succeed on a roll of a 19 on d20, which is already a pretty terrible success chance.
Spring attack is generally not worth it because of the feat tax involved, but monks can get it at 10th without the pre-requisites. Same with the improved combat maneuvers. Suddenly stun and run is viable and not very expensive feat wise.
The monk absolutely could do that.
But does it compare to what any other decently built character at that level can do? Situationally, sure, but in general I don't think it does. At those levels, "I can spring attack and the enemy won't just ignore my weak damage at a poor chance to hit plus possible stun chance and focus on the much more dangerous party members" can happen but it's not, in my experience, most fights.
I agree with you that the monk should be able to contribute in fighting the BBEG, but in such battles, he's got access to the buff spells cast by the rest of the party. If he's got access to those buffs, then his CMB of 16 truly is amazingly low.
Buff spells help, sure. But:
1) In a four person party, you're hoping a lot on enough of the other three characters being buff spell machines that can also afford to burn resources to make you passable in encounters that, honestly, the rest of the party does not need to burn serious expendable resources to win.
2) If you assume other melee characters can have the same level of buff spells in gauging their effectiveness, they look truly fearsome instead of merely adequate. I'd rather see the level 11 fighter whipping out 200+ damage a round than the level 11 spring attacking maneuver monk who can finally manage to trip something almost half the time -- and I'm about the last person to make a superiority argument based on damage.
And, sure, to keep that example the monk can do a lot of things the fighter can't, and has special defenses that put the fighter's to shame -- but that kind of firehose of damage is a serious thing to be reckoned with in most combats, in a way that trip just isn't.
Once per day for every 4 lvls. You're fighting a CR 11 elemental, so if its appropriate CR, you're all lvl 11.
2 times per day. Hope you don't miss. Hope it's DR 10/- doesn't hurt too bad. Hope you don't have to fight more than one of them.
Its an entire party of 11th level characters attacking an 11th level monster who can't fight back. Thanks to Touch of Serenity, they should be able to kill it, easily, even if they do get a couple of misses before it can do any damage to them.Once per day for every 4 lvls. You're fighting a CR 11 elemental, so if its appropriate CR, you're all lvl 11.
2 times per day. Hope you don't miss. Hope it's DR 10/- doesn't hurt too bad. Hope you don't have to fight more than one of them.
Touch of Serenity doesn't say he can't move. In fact, when he does move after the Touch, he'll have 50% concealment for the round (if he double moves or withdraws, which, duh)
Its an entire party of 11th level characters attacking an 11th level monster who can't fight back. Thanks to Touch of Serenity, they should be able to kill it, easily, even if they do get a couple of misses before it can do any damage to them.
Actually, the encounter's more like the party fights something like 30 fire elementals, one of which wouldn't be fighting back for a bit.
Not that helpful.
Its an entire party of 11th level characters attacking an 11th level monster who can't fight back. Thanks to Touch of Serenity, they should be able to kill it, easily, even if they do get a couple of misses before it can do any damage to them.Actually, the encounter's more like the party fights something like 30 fire elementals, one of which wouldn't be fighting back for a bit.
Not that helpful.
I'm not sure that 30 fire elementals is an appropriate challenge for an 11th level character of any class.
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I can't share the opinion that monks are too bad. Might be connected to the fact that I reduced my GM to tears with my monk character on a regular basis ;-D
I am required to absolutely agree with KaeYoss. I have a level 12 monk of the four winds. I terrify my GM on a regular basis.
Monk is a marginally rough class early on. But if given some thought, becomes very worth it from about 6th-8th level. Just remember, WIS>STR>DEX 90% of the time. That, take power attack, and take vital strike, and you'll do fine. I never don't use power attack, and always use vital strike if I need to attack and move.
That's a real strange assessment. If the monk survives the wizards fireball, throws off the wizard's charm, and locks him out of further combat that the monks abilities are serving the rest of his party. \
It isn't too strange, it is the same as when someone makes a dwarven tincan, fullplate, shield, sword, hoping to tank, when there is a berserker in the party, and despairs when npc's get bored of trying to break through his defenses and instead attack the person doing twice his damage.
Stacks of defense without any threat to back it up are meaningless, there is no reason attempt them, until the rest of the party is dealt with. Paladins have a little bit of this problem, but Paladins will murder you when they smite.
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I agree with you that the monk should be able to contribute in fighting the BBEG.
Let's stabilize the goalposts, shall we.
Pick an AP and lets look at the BBEG and see how the monk does. I'll also comment on how they do in the book.
I'll do RoTRL (yes it is 3.5, but it's the one we all can probably discuss with the least spoilers)
Book one BBEG is an Assimar cleric with two Yeth Hounds. Monk can contribute as much as anyone else. Rest of the book has high volume low hit point goblins, which are good for flurry...so he's fine with this book.
Book two BBEG is either the Lamia TPK machine or the Skinsaw Man for the first part. No issues with Skinsaw, same issues as everyone else for the Lamia. Book itself is full of diseases, saves and mooks, so no issues there.
Book three is Giants, and the monk may have issues with the BBEG Giant Caster as well as the giants throughout, since stunning fist is fort and Combat Maneuvers aren't likely to work. His mobility will be helpful in Fort Rannick, and for keeping the giants off the casters but overall the monk won't be optimal in this book.
Book 4 Another Giant Caster BBEG so same issues as before. Book is again giant centric, so same issues as before. They do have a place to shine with the mummy and the harpies, but overall not the best book for them.
Book 5 Is all about casters, with most of the BBEG in the sections being Wizards which are right up the Monks alley when you consider saves, evasion, and bonuses against enchantments. They should be getting Spell Resistance right as they enter runeforge on top of all of that, so this book is a monk playground.
Book 6 BBEG is a Wizard, Monk has spell resistance, all high saves, Great touch AC and a stun attack against fort saves. The book itself is a mixed bag, with giants and such, but against the BBEG the monk is better off than most.
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That's a real strange assessment. If the monk survives the wizards fireball, throws off the wizard's charm, and locks him out of further combat that the monks abilities are serving the rest of his party. \It isn't too strange, it is the same as when someone makes a dwarven tincan, fullplate, shield, sword, hoping to tank, when there is a berserker in the party, and despairs when npc's get bored of trying to break through his defenses and instead attack the person doing twice his damage.
Stacks of defense without any threat to back it up are meaningless, there is no reason attempt them, until the rest of the party is dealt with. Paladins have a little bit of this problem, but Paladins will murder you when they smite.
Do you use miniatures? Is the terrain always flat, with wide open spaces and no bottlenecks where players start in the middle?
Because that would explain a lot.
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I've said this before: A monk is a thinking persons class. If you want to stand side by side and try and outdamage the fighter/pally you're playing a Monk for the wrong reasons. Like most classes you have to know when is a good time to use abilities or not, and the GM should give time for all PCs to have a time to shine. No one class should dominate every fight all campaign.
Do you use miniatures? Is the terrain always flat, with wide open spaces and no bottlenecks where players start in the middle?
Because that would explain a lot.
Yes I use miniatures. No, our group, like yours, also has an imagination. Nice Ad Hominem fallacy though.
I am not understanding your combat scenario. By RAW, one CR 11 critter is equal to a party of four 11th level characters. If there are 30 CR 11 critters, your party should be wiped. Something is seriously off with your other characters.
one CR 11 does NOT equal a lvl 11 party. It's something like 1/4 of a party's resources. An equal fight for a lvl 11 party is actually something like 4-5 Fire Elementals.
We've been talking about movement the entire time. Movement is useful both in and out of combat and there's no particular reason to restrict the discussion to noncombat movement only. Smashing into the side of a tree counts as "harm in failing". Yet another reason that you can't take 10 on your fly roll in the scenario being discussed. Where's the +5 to the fly roll coming from? How high a dex are you assuming the caster has? (and remember that a forest is composed of many trees - many opportunities to smash into the side of a tree in any given round of movement). As for "while the monk 1/day uses cloud step", why is the monk arbitary limiting himself to using cloud step only once per day? There is no such limitation imposed by the feat.
1) Oh, now he's in COMBAT moving through a forest, not just moving through the forest. While the Monk 1/day uses cloud step. Except you can take 10 on a skill check if there's no harm in your failure.
Basically, he's probably going to have an ad hoc +5 bonus on the fly check from dex and caster level...he can move, attack, and cast spells as easily as if he were walking...and basically only has to roll if he wants to fly straight up or pull a 180, which requires a 5 on the roll. And the fly spell lets you hover in place without a problem, he doesn't need wings, so he's in no danger of falling for...
'Smashing into the side of a tree' happens as much as 'running into the side of a tree.' Stopping is a DC 10 check...auto pass. You are imposing a condition which is NOT THERE.
Kindly look at the Fly spell, and Fly skill. Fly spell grants a bonus to Fly skill = 1/2 caster level, so minimum of +3 (magic items have a CL). Fly skill is dex based, so +2, = ad hoc +5 by default. It could and probably will be much higher (esp since we're comparing level 12 minimum characters)
Let's see, Cloud Step. Bonus feat for Qi-Gong monks, and Feat in a splat book (poo poo?). Level 12 monk minimum, and waste a feat on Spider Step to get it. Cloud walk up to half fall distance, max 50 ft. Riiiight. So he went from being able to run 360' in a round, to being able to air walk 50' in a round...at level 20...while the flying guy travels 60' move without a problem from the moment he starts flying.
Riiight. So he does get to fly, he just does it even slower then a fly spell, at EVERY level. Hooray for movement advantage:monk. Why did you take cloud step instead of just buying some winged boots or something, again?
And look at that...every round, he has to be back on the ground. Which means this is basically not anything more then a glorified jump check which restricts his movement rate. You do realize that a level 12 monk with a move of 60 and max Athletic ranks will have a base jump check of +24 and before stat bonuses can automatically jump 30', the distance of Cloud Step, and keep right on going, where the Cloud Stepper has to stop?
You'll have to forgive me for the 1/day thing, I was confusing it with another 3.5 monk class, which actually allowed you to Air Walk 1/day...which would actually be useful.
==Aelryinth
An average encounter's CR is equal to the average party level (APL). The APL presumes a party of 4 to 5 characters. If the party is larger or smaller than 4 to 5 characters, the APL is adjusted acccordingly. An elder fire elemental (which is what we've been discussing) is CR 11. The party is l1th level characters. ergo, assuming the party is 4 to 5 characters, the average encounter would be 1 elder fire elemental, not 4 to 5 elder fire elementals and certainly not 30 elder fire elementals.
Which is what I said.
I'm nitpicking a bit... what you said was the CR 11 was equal to the party. You didn't specify what exactly it was equal to. An appropriate CR encounter yes. Equal to party strengths? No.
idk where he got 30 elementals from either, unless he was thinking non-elder ones.
But regardless of that, i do have a problem with you assuming the Fire Elemental stands still after hit with Touch of Serenity.
But regardless of that, i do have a problem with you assuming the Fire Elemental stands still after hit with Touch of Serenity.And that's a fair concern. Another option is for the monk to wait until just before the rest of the party moves. Then, the monk uses touch of serenity - which helps the rest of the party surround the elemental, bypassing it's 15' reach (and the attacks of opportunity that would otherwise result). And surrounding the elemental with the party will help keeep it from running away.
Surrounding a creature of even medium size takes 8 characters. I doubt the elemental has his back to a wall. If Touch'd, it would probably use the Withdraw action. You'd get AoO's for every square except the one the elemental's already in, and he get's 50% concealment.
The Fire Elemental has moved, maybe taken some damage, and you're down a use of Touch of Serenity.
Well, some people do take that as worth it. Of course, I'd count it as a win action-economy-wise myself.
It's one elemental vs 4-5 PCs, i dont think you could ever lose action-economy-wise
1/4 is worse than 0/4.
You're falling behind for a more dramatic victory!
Who, the elemental?
?.?
Were you counting it as a win for the elemental or the party?
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Yes I use miniatures. No, our group, like yours, also has an imagination. Nice Ad Hominem fallacy though.Do you use miniatures? Is the terrain always flat, with wide open spaces and no bottlenecks where players start in the middle?
Because that would explain a lot.
No, I really honestly don't know how you can't see the value of blocking a square if you aren't just playing big open fields with no difficult terrain.
Seriously, at minimum you can protect your casters from a charge while setting up for a flank.
Alright, Liliths I'm basing all of my responses based on the build you posted a few pages back.
Against a single, CR = APL monster, I have to agree, your monk build can hold it's own in a party. But that said, a single monster with a CR equaling the APL is really not that much of a challenge.
I'm more concerned about how your monk contributes to encounters where there is a challenge, where every member needs to be pulling their weight, or they are in deep trouble. Encounters with multiple creatures, or encounters with CR +1, +2, or even +3 higher than the APL.
For example, what if you were a 10th level monk fighting that Elder Fire Elemental? How would your monk contribute then? No more Touch of Serenity. Stunning Fist doesn't work. Combat Maneuvers have little chance of success. Your damage barely puts a dent in his DR. And on top of all that, you are extremely squishy as well (just 63 HP).
And what if you were facing more than one enemy? The way your monk is built, if you get ganged up on, you are a goner. You said this character isn't a front line fighter, but how is that possible? You don't have spring attack. You don't have a passable ranged attack (shuriken are no good because of your STR of +0). Heck, you don't even have a reach weapon. And all of your amazing abilities require you to be in melee range of your enemies. It doesn't matter how great your Acrobatics is or how great your movement is, you are ending your turn in melee. Even if everything goes swimmingly for you (you make it to an opponent, you land an attack, they fail their save), and they are taken out of action for a turn or two, you still need to deal with a few other guys, and now you are on the front line, but are not built for being there.
Lastly, looking back on your build, I keep finding what I believe to be errors the more and more I look. Skills are 1 point high, wealth is 7.5k too high, etc... But what I really am having trouble figuring out is how the hell your monk as written has a flurry of +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 2d10? I see a flurry base of +14, and a +9 from Dex. But that only leads to a +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8. And if you use the Boots of Speed, a +24/+24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9. I don't see any other feat, item, or other ability that boosts your to hit bonus. Can you tell me how you got to a +27 flurry?
No amulet of mighty fists or brass knuckles?
==Aelryinth
btw, is an elemental even susceptible to a Touch of Serenity? Thought they were immune to stunning.
==Aelryinth
Alright, Liliths I'm basing all of my responses based on the build you posted a few pages back.
Against a single, CR = APL monster, I have to agree, your monk build can hold it's own in a party. But that said, a single monster with a CR equaling the APL is really not that much of a challenge.
I'm more concerned about how your monk contributes to encounters where there is a challenge, where every member needs to be pulling their weight, or they are in deep trouble. Encounters with multiple creatures, or encounters with CR +1, +2, or even +3 higher than the APL.
For example, what if you were a 10th level monk fighting that Elder Fire Elemental? How would your monk contribute then? No more Touch of Serenity. Stunning Fist doesn't work. Combat Maneuvers have little chance of success. Your damage barely puts a dent in his DR. And on top of all that, you are extremely squishy as well (just 63 HP).
And what if you were facing more than one enemy? The way your monk is built, if you get ganged up on, you are a goner. You said this character isn't a front line fighter, but how is that possible? You don't have spring attack. You don't have a passable ranged attack (shuriken are no good because of your STR of +0). Heck, you don't even have a reach weapon. And all of your amazing abilities require you to be in melee range of your enemies. It doesn't matter how great your Acrobatics is or how great your movement is, you are ending your turn in melee. Even if everything goes swimmingly for you (you make it to an opponent, you land an attack, they fail their save), and they are taken out of action for a turn or two, you still need to deal with a few other guys, and now you are on the front line, but are not built for being there.
Lastly, looking back on your build, I keep finding what I believe to be errors the more and more I look. Skills are 1 point high, wealth is 7.5k too high, etc... But what I really am having trouble figuring out is how the hell your monk as written has a flurry of...
I wanted to do this exact post... but didn't feel like combing through her? posts to figure it all out.
Thank you good sir? (madam?)