Fun tactic.. Monk/Rogue.. high dex/wis.. str is nice but unimportant. Have several of these in a group running around as skirmish fighters, they will Spring Attack frequently, attempt improved trips with one of them every now and then and spring attack with the others getting sneak attack damage. The hit and run can be nasty. :)
Edit: Also, without Spring Attack at higher levels with Vital Strike can be deadly as well. Ninjas can be just as nasty with this combination. Monk/Ninja is hideous for this combo.
Cirno seems to be under the false understanding that Stunning Fist and Combat Maneuvers are unreliable and can't hold a candle to a full attack action. He may think himself quite the powergamer but does not seem to understand much outside of modules and theorycraft. I have been in dozens of games where maneuverability and control have won us the battle.
Claims that someone else's play style are merely the results of modules and theorycraft is a needless and vacuous insult without sufficient reasoning behind it.
Its understandable that someone believes that stunning fist is unreliable. Its a fort save, every undead you come across is immune to it. Fort is also a good save for most of the monster manual. The DC is wisdom based, where as if you want to actually hit with the fist you need strength (or mayby dex)
So you need to 1) have a legal target 2) hit 3) have them fail the save. That can result in a low success rate , especially if you're used to strength powered monks.
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Cirno seems to be under the false understanding that Stunning Fist and Combat Maneuvers are unreliable and can't hold a candle to a full attack action. He may think himself quite the powergamer but does not seem to understand much outside of modules and theorycraft. I have been in dozens of games where maneuverability and control have won us the battle.Claims that someone else's play style are merely the results of modules and theorycraft is a needless and vacuous insult without sufficient reasoning behind it.
Its understandable that someone believes that stunning fist is unreliable. Its a fort save, every undead you come across is immune to it. Fort is also a good save for most of the monster manual. The DC is wisdom based, where as if you want to actually hit with the fist you need strength (or mayby dex)
So you need to 1) have a legal target 2) hit 3) have them fail the save. That can result in a low success rate , especially if you're used to strength powered monks.
And you still do damage as part of the stunning fist. You can still vital strike as part of the stunning fist.
There is no penalty to using stunning fist other than losing a use of stunning fist per day.
It is most effective against casters.
90% of the Monks that I play concentrate on their two core stats, Wisdom and Dex in that order. I also raise Strength/Con as appropriate and Intelligence/Charisma with leftovers. My Stunning Fist DC tends to be fairly high giving me a 60-70% chance to reliably land the Stunning Blow. As far as not working on Undead.. it also does not work on Constructs but that does not discount Combat Maneuvers. Trip and especially Grapple are great combat maneuvers and fairly easy to land with a decent dex.
I've never viewed Monks as "Should be doing similar if not equal damage to fighters and barbarians." and they do keep up, even with lower strength values. If I have a 13 I do pick up Power Attack for situational uses it can come in handy for a pretty hefty damage bonus against a flatfooted target or in some other situations.
Monks are great in maneuverability, they're very defensive and can get around without dying for the most part. Freedom in battle and the ability to lock stuff down is extremely useful, especially when fighting as a team. Their damage also isn't bad. :)
My build would actually be much closer to...
Strength 14
Dex 15
Con 15
Int 8
Wisdom 17
Charisma 7
Stat Raises in order..
Wisdom
Dex
Con
Wisdom
Wisdom
If starting at higher level/gold amount.. I'd look at raising Wisdom 4 times and raising Strength once.. or Wisdom twice, Dex twice, Strength once.. increase Str/Dex/Con/Wisdom by +3 or +5 tomes..
If I have a very difficult time hitting things later on, I'd swap out the last two in Wisdom for two in Dexterity.
Same 20 point buy.
Ending stat block would be..
14/16/16/8/20/7..
With items for boost it would be..
20/22/22/8/26/7.. may or may not add Int to the boost item for the bonus skills depending on the campaign. Same goes with Charisma. Sure, you could raise yourself to 28 Str if you really wanted.. but imo having higher saves across the board, especially Will Save, having a higher DC on Monk abilities, and a crazy AC.. Quite a bit more useful for a monk. And the Extra Ki is tasty.
Stat block with tomes and alternate advance..
26/26/26/8/32/7 or 26/28/26/8/30/7.. depending on situation/group.
In this entire discussion I find one thing very interesting: it is often brought up that gear can match something the monk can do. I don't think that's a valid argument. I can make a fighter that can cast from scrolls. Does that meant the all spellcasters are now not viable?
Having a high move is always useful, even if the first standard attack isn't that useful. I have used the high move to get to flank, where if you had a slow move you wouldn't be able to setup the flank for your allies.
As for damage, I think the majority of posters haven't seen a full out strength monk. If you saw fighters being created with 14STR, you would say fighters suck as damage dealers. This holds true for monks.
Monk is not MAD; 17/14/14/7/14/7 is perfectly ok for a 20 point build. Though, having high attributes does help; especially at low levels.
Quigon from ultimate magic adds a nice boost to monk power level; even if only used to get barkskin.
I think if you need two dump stats, you are arguing that they are MAD.
Fun tactic.. Monk/Rogue.. high dex/wis.. str is nice but unimportant. Have several of these in a group running around as skirmish fighters, they will Spring Attack frequently, attempt improved trips with one of them every now and then and spring attack with the others getting sneak attack damage. The hit and run can be nasty. :)
Edit: Also, without Spring Attack at higher levels with Vital Strike can be deadly as well. Ninjas can be just as nasty with this combination. Monk/Ninja is hideous for this combo.
stealing my ideas
stealing my ideasFun tactic.. Monk/Rogue.. high dex/wis.. str is nice but unimportant. Have several of these in a group running around as skirmish fighters, they will Spring Attack frequently, attempt improved trips with one of them every now and then and spring attack with the others getting sneak attack damage. The hit and run can be nasty. :)
Edit: Also, without Spring Attack at higher levels with Vital Strike can be deadly as well. Ninjas can be just as nasty with this combination. Monk/Ninja is hideous for this combo.
In your brainz, stealin' your ideaz.
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We had a game recently where the monk in our party shut down the flyby attack option of a creature because her grapple was so damn good. Hard to fly when the monk locks your wings down. It then let the fighter do his thing with full attack. Good team work.
She also consistantly trips dangerous foes so the fighter can smash them easier as well.
Her damage output can't keep up with the big boys, but when the waves of mooks come, she drops them well enough and fast enough that she can hold a flank or move to close down a surprise ambush from another angle as needed(which happens regularly in our games).
The same monk consistantly drops stunning fist on my casters, and it works surprisingly well. When the average combat only lasts 3-4 rounds, having a major castor stunned for a round means they're out for 1/3 of the fight. That's after she's run around all the screening mooks and terrain to get them. Oh, and if she misses, ki point and try again.
The player understands the monks roll is not front line fighter. He plays her as a mobile problem solver, and he loves playing it at the moment.
The group are only at level 7 though, so I cannot comment on how her effectiveness will change at higher levels. At this stage she more than holds her own in our group though. (Fighter, sorceror, cleric, monk. Occasionally an inquisitor joins in as well).
Having read some of the stuff here, I may recommend to the player to take a level in rogue for the sneak attack option. That would make the monk truly nasty when she sets up flank for the fighter, or better yet the inquisitor.
Cheers
Having read some of the stuff here, I may recommend to the player to take a level in rogue for the sneak attack option. That would make the monk truly nasty when she sets up flank for the fighter, or better yet the inquisitor.
Cheers
where were you people before?
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Having read some of the stuff here, I may recommend to the player to take a level in rogue for the sneak attack option. That would make the monk truly nasty when she sets up flank for the fighter, or better yet the inquisitor.
Cheers
where were you people before?
lol
I tend to avoid these threads nowadays unless I have some real gameplay experience to add to a conversation. Too many people get serious about some of these topics and take things to an ugly level. Having got caught in that trap a few times, I keep my head down now.
I thought the experience of our gaming group was useful to at least some of you this time though. Hope it helps.
Cheers
Oh, and if she misses, ki point and try again.
If you're referring to the ki point for extra attack, that only can be done as part of a flurry of blows.
Oh, and in broader reply to your post: my experience is, there always will be some moments for the monk to shine -- he runs into the rare caster that doesn't have Freedom of Movement and a titanic Fort save, he runs into something that's built to use a two-handed weapon and doesn't have ridiculous CMD vs grapple, etc. -- but the higher level you get, the fewer and farther between those moments become, relative to the moments in which other party members are able to shine and the more common the moments in which the monk just can't do anything very useful are or in which the monk could in theory do something useful, but the odds are so stacked against them that they end up failing.
I'm thinking the monk is more for the casual gamer as opposed to the gamers who like to optimize more. So long as the GM is also casual, I think there are fewer problems.
I have not seen any of the issues that others note with the monk. I've seen them in low through high levels of play. The only times the monk has had problems is when everyone else also has had problems. I mean serious, life threatening problems. Every character runs into something they can't handle at some point. So long as it's not the norm, then I don't see anything wrong.
I do think that the monk can still be improved. I just don't think it's the stink-fest some make it out to be.
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Oh, and in broader reply to your post: my experience is, there always will be some moments for the monk to shine -- he runs into the rare caster that doesn't have Freedom of Movement and a titanic Fort save, he runs into something that's built to use a two-handed weapon and doesn't have ridiculous CMD vs grapple, etc. -- but the higher level you get, the fewer and farther between those moments become, relative to the moments in which other party members are able to shine and the more common the moments in which the monk just can't do anything very useful are or in which the monk could in theory do something useful, but the odds are so stacked against them that they end up failing.
At higher levels my players change their tactics. They tend to be able to fly around or teleport more.
I suspect the monk and sorceror will team up for a mobile silence effect which means grapple isn't a problem and she'll just flurry the caster or stun them.
I mostly run AP's, so the arcane casters we run across don't tend to have such huge Fort saves. Clerics do, but then you just move, ready action to trip when they cast hoping to disrupt the spell.
A fighting critter built to avoid CMB means its missing out elsewhere. someone else will hurt it and the monk can focus on the other mobs instead. We rarely come across single monster combats, they're fairly boring to our group.
As for most of the arguments that come about for "classes suck", for every situation against, there's as many that work for.
The monk is a thinking players class. It's not for everyone I agree, but it can be amazingly versatile and effective. There are times when it can suck as well, but there's not a class I can think of where that isn't true.
Cheers
I've never viewed Monks as "Should be doing similar if not equal damage to fighters and barbarians." and they do keep up, even with lower strength values. If I have a 13 I do pick up Power Attack for situational uses it can come in handy for a pretty hefty damage bonus against a flatfooted target or in some other situations.
Their damage also isn't bad. :)
This is insulting everytime someone says it, no one con monk has asked for them to have fighter damage. Absolutely none of them. What has been said is that damage keeps being used as one of the pros, as in "i can do my thing and still throw in my damage!" (Namely with stunning fist) and the truth is I havent seen the monk that can hit and stun half the cr appropriate creatures with a 50% success rate."but I still did damage and i can try again!" Yeah well it isnt fighter damage and its barely unbuffed bard damage, but you guys will take the fighter part of that sentence and blow it out of proportion, damage is your fallback and it sucks, chances are by the time you land a stunning fist you will have been full attacked to unconciousness.
Whats left? Tripping/disarming/grappling, well if you want greater you gotta pay for it so thats already a minus. Most monsters are either immune (huge size/doesnt use legs/only relies on one big attack (yes mr. Dm i will take an aoo from a monk to stand up), uses claws(this is a big one)/has back up weapon(unlike pc fighters npcs dont have their one super weapon for damage), anything with any kind of teleport/anything with constrict/anything with a fom effect.) Or locking down one creature the whole combat is pretty wasteful "oh look we dont have to worry about that one ogre..." because it isnt gonna work on the bbeg.
I've never viewed Monks as "Should be doing similar if not equal damage to fighters and barbarians." and they do keep up, even with lower strength values. If I have a 13 I do pick up Power Attack for situational uses it can come in handy for a pretty hefty damage bonus against a flatfooted target or in some other situations.
Their damage also isn't bad. :)
This is insulting everytime someone says it, no one con monk has asked for them to have fighter damage. Absolutely none of them. What has been said is that damage keeps being used as one of the pros, as in "i can do my thing and still throw in my damage!" (Namely with stunning fist) and the truth is I havent seen the monk that can hit and stun half the cr appropriate creatures with a 50% success rate."but I still did damage and i can try again!" Yeah well it isnt fighter damage and its barely unbuffed bard damage, but you guys will take the fighter part of that sentence and blow it out of proportion, damage is your fallback and it sucks, chances are by the time you land a stunning fist you will have been full attacked to unconciousness.
Whats left? Tripping/disarming/grappling, well if you want greater you gotta pay for it so thats already a minus. Most monsters are either immune (huge size/doesnt use legs/only relies on one big attack (yes mr. Dm i will take an aoo from a monk to stand up), uses claws(this is a big one)/has back up weapon(unlike pc fighters npcs dont have their one super weapon for damage), anything with any kind of teleport/anything with constrict/anything with a fom effect.) Or locking down one creature the whole combat is pretty wasteful "oh look we dont have to worry about that one ogre..." because it isnt gonna work on the bbeg.
Actually one of the very persistent arguments is that the monk can't maintain pace with the front line fighters when it comes to damage. I certainly don't feel like scrolling through 400+ posts in this thread alone to find them, but they are there. Everything else you mentioned is strictly campaign specific and GM style. I have had very different experiences from you.
Actually one of the very persistent arguments is that the monk can't maintain pace with the front line fighters when it comes to damage.
To be perfectly fair, I think it does come up because it's part of the picture, as in: a character that can't deal comparable damage under any circumstances (e.g. the paladin can't match the fighter usually but it can if it's smiting, the rogue can't match a fighter usually but it's at least in the ball park if it can sneak, etc.) needs to bring something pretty significant offensively to make up for it. Then the second part of the picture is arguing that the monk doesn't.
Overall, it has pretty solid defenses, but...
The magic item argument vs. class abilities has always been a legit argument.
Ring of Evasion, helping other classes take no dmg from reflex AoE's since 3E. Is it special the rogue has it?
THe fly spell/items, avoiding dif terrain, subbing for Jump skill, and outrunning the monk until 11+ while solving movement problems for any class. And movement is a primary, scaling part of the monk class...but anyone can get it with some gold.
Items/spells subbing for class abilities is VERY valid against melee. Being able to Polymorph basically replaced the Melee character's role (Firbolgs with base 36 Str and +12 Nat AC, size L for Reach, tyvm). If one directed effect can consistently sub for or replace a character's uniqueness, he's not unique anymore. That's different then having to spend all your gold trying to replace what a spellcaster gets as a class ability. Trying to replicate a caster's full potential day after day would rapidly break your bank.
==Aelryinth
Actually one of the very persistent arguments is that the monk can't maintain pace with the front line fighters when it comes to damage.To be perfectly fair, I think it does come up because it's part of the picture, as in: a character that can't deal comparable damage under any circumstances (e.g. the paladin can't match the fighter usually but it can if it's smiting, the rogue can't match a fighter usually but it's at least in the ball park if it can sneak, etc.) needs to bring something pretty significant offensively to make up for it. Then the second part of the picture is arguing that the monk doesn't.
Overall, it has pretty solid defenses, but...
I won't argue against any of that. To say that no one wants the monk to do the same damage as a fighter and then scroll through these threads and all you see is monk versus fighter comparisons means that someone would be mistaken.
I think the monk does bring quite a bit offensively but obviously not everyone does. I have seen stunning fist work very regularly. I have seen Quivering Palm come in very handy. I have seen the flurry of blows and combat maneuvers work in tandem very well. I have seen it all the way to level 17. We haven't played the last few levels yet so things may still change. 9th level spells were just brought in so we'll see. I don't think there will be much change but who knows?
The magic item argument vs. class abilities has always been a legit argument.
It's not a valid part of the argument because everyone has access to it.
Items/spells subbing for class abilities is VERY valid against melee. Being able to Polymorph basically replaced the Melee character's role (Firbolgs with base 36 Str and +12 Nat AC, size L for Reach, tyvm). If one directed effect can consistently sub for or replace a character's uniqueness, he's not unique anymore. That's different then having to spend all your gold trying to replace what a spellcaster gets as a class ability. Trying to replicate a caster's full potential day after day would rapidly break your bank.
Let me first say that I am not arguing magic versus melee. That's a different argument altogether.
I am saying that a fighter has enough money to cast spells as a caster just from scrolls at a certain point in the game. He can still maintain his fighting abilities as well. None of this invalidates the casters therefore using a movement enhancing item should not invalidate the monk.
I also never argue from the "unique" standpoint because there are very few unique options and most of those aren't huge game changers. I think that the sorcerer has the most unique options but that doesn't make it better than a wizard. Unique does not mean better. What's the difference between a fighter and a barbarian? How much does their uniqueness matter? In the long run, not much at all other than style.
I'm not sure about you, but on a reglar basis my monk has gotten to high end damage of Fighters of even level.
Fighter had Weapon Spec/Greater Spec, Weapon Training, and a decent weapon. I had a Monk's Robe, Brutal Pugilist variant Barbarian, Amulet of Mighty Blows.. and a bit more money to waste on stat boosting items.
Stunning Fist DC 31 was more then high enough to cause concern.
Yes, it was a high level game but I very much enjoyed it.
Full Attacks are nice, but if a fight is being played out properly then the only time you'll be using full attacks is if you manage to lock down your target or if you have Ranged.. or if the target is that much stronger then you it feels it can take the punishment.
If a DM throws any high CR encounter at you and it tries to tank your melee characters, then you've got some serious concerns.
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The magic item argument vs. class abilities has always been a legit argument.
Ring of Evasion, helping other classes take no dmg from reflex AoE's since 3E. Is it special the rogue has it?
THe fly spell/items, avoiding dif terrain, subbing for Jump skill, and outrunning the monk until 11+ while solving movement problems for any class. And movement is a primary, scaling part of the monk class...but anyone can get it with some gold.
Items/spells subbing for class abilities is VERY valid against melee. Being able to Polymorph basically replaced the Melee character's role (Firbolgs with base 36 Str and +12 Nat AC, size L for Reach, tyvm). If one directed effect can consistently sub for or replace a character's uniqueness, he's not unique anymore. That's different then having to spend all your gold trying to replace what a spellcaster gets as a class ability. Trying to replicate a caster's full potential day after day would rapidly break your bank.
==Aelryinth
"I AM A CASTER! I CAN DO EVERYTHING" (once per day) (validity of claim depends on time of day and spell slots left. Please read small print for disclaimer and I reserve the right to teleport in fear when a situation arises I have not prepared for nor have the spell slots to deal with it. )
:)
Anything you can do i can do better arguments tend to be very circular in these threads.
And now I find I'm getting caught in that trap I mentioned earlier. Leaving you fine folk to it.
Cheers
Can someone give me a build that either puts out good damage (not second hand fighter damage because that isnt useful, paladins and rangers dont have fighter damage but the have buffs and spike damage), has a reliable stunning fist (i.e. more then 50% chance on most monsters of appropriate level this includes the odds of hitting), or has a really good maneuver set up that again works more then 50% of the time (because a coin flips success is not what I call useful) and a diverse enough amount of them that he can always use one on a given monster (dirty trick and steal count for this)
I gave three build options based on what I have seen posted as useful builds in this thread, if you can meet my requirements which I think are fair (feel free to say if you think otherwise and give reason) and if it can be done I will concede.
Can someone give me a build that either puts out good damage (not second hand fighter damage because that isnt useful, paladins and rangers dont have fighter damage but the have buffs and spike damage), has a reliable stunning fist (i.e. more then 50% chance on most monsters of appropriate level this includes the odds of hitting), or has a really good maneuver set up that again works more then 50% of the time (because a coin flips success is not what I call useful) and a diverse enough amount of them that he can always use one on a given monster (dirty trick and steal count for this)
I gave three build options based on what I have seen posted as useful builds in this thread, if you can meet my requirements which I think are fair (feel free to say if you think otherwise and give reason) and if it can be done I will concede.
What level? Core only or can I use other resources?
What level? Core only or can I use other resources?Can someone give me a build that either puts out good damage (not second hand fighter damage because that isnt useful, paladins and rangers dont have fighter damage but the have buffs and spike damage), has a reliable stunning fist (i.e. more then 50% chance on most monsters of appropriate level this includes the odds of hitting), or has a really good maneuver set up that again works more then 50% of the time (because a coin flips success is not what I call useful) and a diverse enough amount of them that he can always use one on a given monster (dirty trick and steal count for this)
I gave three build options based on what I have seen posted as useful builds in this thread, if you can meet my requirements which I think are fair (feel free to say if you think otherwise and give reason) and if it can be done I will concede.
It shouldn't matter what level but lets keep it under 13 so my head doesnt start hurting, and you can use core apg and ultimate magic (not a lot for the monk in there but i thought id offer it anyway) because A) that is what i have access too and B) a lot of players dont use ap's and paperback supplements (like myself) so lets keep it to what the majority will have available.
Edit: lets also avoid outside buffing because it isnt a buff if it is the reason your effective.
What level? Core only or can I use other resources?Can someone give me a build that either puts out good damage (not second hand fighter damage because that isnt useful, paladins and rangers dont have fighter damage but the have buffs and spike damage), has a reliable stunning fist (i.e. more then 50% chance on most monsters of appropriate level this includes the odds of hitting), or has a really good maneuver set up that again works more then 50% of the time (because a coin flips success is not what I call useful) and a diverse enough amount of them that he can always use one on a given monster (dirty trick and steal count for this)
I gave three build options based on what I have seen posted as useful builds in this thread, if you can meet my requirements which I think are fair (feel free to say if you think otherwise and give reason) and if it can be done I will concede.
It shouldn't matter what level but lets keep it under 13 so my head doesnt start hurting, and you can use core apg and ultimate magic (not a lot for the monk in there but i thought id offer it anyway) because A) that is what i have access too and B) a lot of players dont use ap's and paperback supplements (like myself) so lets keep it to what the majority will have available.
Edit: lets also avoid outside buffing because it isnt a buff if it is the reason your effective.
I can do that. The reason I wanted to know what level is I think anyone can make an effective character of any level but if you can't get from level 1 to that level, that level is really not important.
So I will use the target numbers in the Bestiary for all my calculations. I will assume the monk will always be going up against the best Fortitude save and that the creature will always be targeting the monk's weakest save. If he can handle those, then he should be able to handle better than those.
Would it be ok to use Permanency if paid for? I don't plan on it but sometimes I find something interesting. For example, Magic Fang or Enlarge? If not, that's ok with me. When I'm done, I will post a monk from level 1 to 13 with notes on effectiveness. Depending on my mood, I may go all the way to 20.
What about inclusion of the ISWG?
My build would actually be much closer to...
Strength 14
Dex 15
Con 15
Int 8
Wisdom 17
Charisma 7Stat Raises in order..
Wisdom
Dex
Con
Wisdom
Wisdom
Just...no. We have already dealt with these horrible builds just in the last page. It is a trap build which ends up with a useless character. Please don't insult us by having it suggested again as an example of a useful monk. Oh, and by the way, the example build given had an even higher wisdom than that, and Stunning Fist was still useless against what should be easy opponents. Without even having to mention the mindboggling impossibility of pulling off manuevers despite investing 5 feats in it.
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Again, please Mikaze you're one of the main people I see talking about "The Original VoP". I know you miss it, I know you want more flavor in your character. This is not something you need house rules for, nor something you need a trait for that specifically lays it out for you.
Tattooed Monks can actually do quite well and effectively do exactly what you're asking. Technically it's not a stretch to have a pseudo-tattoo done by preparing various parts of your body with sacred oils, or doing a training montage, or whatever you want to do. It has a mechanic.
What mechanic? If you're suggesting to simply overlay that flavor over standard magic gear and item enhancement, then that is depending entirely on a GM being willing to allow that special treatment, put up with the extra headache, and account for these items that "aren't really there" and whether they can be stolen/broken/dispelled and all the balance issues that spill out of that.
Such suggestions might be helpful to a GM. That is NOT an easy sell for a player to make.
It's not the Exalted Deeds VoP, not will it ever be. Some people really like the Vow's that Pathfinder has put in the way they are.
And some people don't. The thing is, the people that are fine with the UM Vow have that option. Those that desire something like the original have nothing. Both groups should be able to have their option.
I'm not trying to pick on you, nor am I telling you to give up, I'm simply trying to help give you more ideas of options that are open to you within the system as it is.
Also, for Monks being less dependent on equipment.. That has never been said or printed in any of the books. If you really want to stress a character with that view point then invest your money into other things.. Enchanted Monks Robes.. Tattoos.. Etc.. You can play a character with little equipment that still has the magical effects. You don't need to do it with Feats or House Rules.
If you want to do it with house rules and your GM is cool with it, then yay!
Otherwise.. stop fighting for Monks that can do retarded things without gear.
PLEASE. I'm tired of reading that crap.
In a thread whose entire purpose was coming up to solutions for different issues different people had with the monk, no less.
What about inclusion of the ISWG?
That's Golarian specific. I can see not including it.
Permanacy is legitimate, x uses per day items can be factored in too. if you want to do a bunch of levels i wont stop you xD I wouldnt have expected more then three at most, to build in intervals but ill look at all of them if you do more.
@gloom: I dont own the iswg and havent looked through it on the pfsrd so id rather ignore it for now, he shouldnt have to rely on any one or two options out of there so it wont change much.
Just...no. We have already dealt with these horrible builds just in the last page. It is a trap build which ends up with a useless character. Please don't insult us by having it suggested again as an example of a useful monk. Oh, and by the way, the example build given had an even higher wisdom than that, and Stunning Fist was still useless against what should be easy opponents. Without even having to mention the mindboggling impossibility of pulling off manuevers despite investing 5 feats in it.My build would actually be much closer to...
Strength 14
Dex 15
Con 15
Int 8
Wisdom 17
Charisma 7Stat Raises in order..
Wisdom
Dex
Con
Wisdom
Wisdom
No idea where you're coming from on this one. I've played that build with great success. Granted, it's not PFS nor could I care about PFS to begin with. I've never had a problem with landing my maneuvers nor have I had a problem with reliably landing a Stunning Fist. Maneuvers I used the most were Bull Rush and Grapple, and had a fairly decent reliability on them. I did the third most damage in the group between the fighter and barbarian who took up first place, and the Rogue who took up fourth. It was a 7 person party. The top four slots of damage were roughly within the top 20% of the damage scale, the Fighter pulling off the 100% and the Rogue pulling off around 80-85%.. at times he would sky-rocket over 120% though. The barbarian stayed around 95-100% and the Monk was at around 90-95%. The arrangement worked really well together. It was the Monk's job to get them into position, the Barbarian's job to keep them there, and the Fighter and Rogue just helped rip things apart.
Then again, our Cleric, Bard, and Wizard favored support and utility.. so I dunno. :)
If I were to do that team any different however, I would not have minded the Barbarian being swapped out for a Paladin. I think the group dynamic would have been even stronger.
The monk as a class is very campaign dependent. These things work greatly in favor of the monk:
- The campaign is fairly low-level. At lower levels, combat maneuvers are easier to use since there's rarely freedom of movement, few flying opponents and so on.
- The campaign is focused on humanoids rather than monsters. Same again here, monks works well against humans and elves - not against giant centipedes and such. Also, humanoids more often take prisoners - and there's nowhere where the monk shines more than in a prison escape scenario.
- The campaign is more urban than wilderness. In urban areas, weapons might often be forbidden or limited, and having decent dex-skill scores is often useful. A monk will have an easier time getting around than a fighter, even though monks dump cha.
- The campaign has a lot of dangers that aren't brute force enemies or spells. If the campaign is heavy in traps, poisons, diseases, lava pits, underwater caves and so on, that works in the monk's favor.
- The campaign is high point buy. The monk is REALLY MAD.
It's not that all these things have to be true, but it's things that work in the monks favor and the more of these fit, the better the monk will look compared to other classes.
Monk is also a good dip class, but that's another topic.
I've never viewed Monks as "Should be doing similar if not equal damage to fighters and barbarians." and they do keep up, even with lower strength values. If I have a 13 I do pick up Power Attack for situational uses it can come in handy for a pretty hefty damage bonus against a flatfooted target or in some other situations.
Their damage also isn't bad. :)
This is insulting everytime someone says it, no one con monk has asked for them to have fighter damage. Absolutely none of them. What has been said is that damage keeps being used as one of the pros, as in "i can do my thing and still throw in my damage!" (Namely with stunning fist) and the truth is I havent seen the monk that can hit and stun half the cr appropriate creatures with a 50% success rate."but I still did damage and i can try again!" Yeah well it isnt fighter damage and its barely unbuffed bard damage, but you guys will take the fighter part of that sentence and blow it out of proportion, damage is your fallback and it sucks, chances are by the time you land a stunning fist you will have been full attacked to unconciousness.
Whats left? Tripping/disarming/grappling, well if you want greater you gotta pay for it so thats already a minus. Most monsters are either immune (huge size/doesnt use legs/only relies on one big attack (yes mr. Dm i will take an aoo from a monk to stand up), uses claws(this is a big one)/has back up weapon(unlike pc fighters npcs dont have their one super weapon for damage), anything with any kind of teleport/anything with constrict/anything with a fom effect.) Or locking down one creature the whole combat is pretty wasteful "oh look we dont have to worry about that one ogre..." because it isnt gonna work on the bbeg.
If you came up with a good argument other than theorycrafting, I might believe it.
But guys like wraithstrike make it seem as though every fighter has no problem matching the saves, touch AC, and capabilities of the monk. Yet that is a total lie.
For a fighter to obtain saves anywhere near the monk, he must choose specific builds. Those builds tend to give up damage or some aspect of the fighter that puts them so far ahead of the monk.
Even barbarian builds give up something to get something.
The monk gets good saves, touch AC, and a plethora of abilities as an inherent part of the class. No special build required.
I'll even give you a recent example. I have an optimized Invunlnerable Rager Barbarian. This guy is stacked. He has Superstition rage power with the human bonus for insane saves. He has DR 11/- when raging. He has Come and Get Me with a Belt of Physical Perfection. He gets +5 damage against creatures with spells or spell-like abilities. He has built his Con up and gotten feats to where he is pushing 400 hit points. He's a melee beast. He has the Step Up line of feats to maximize his Come and Get Me.
What's his big weakness? Combat Maneuver Defense. With his rage, Reckless Abandon, and Come and Get Me enemy bonus he's pretty much meat for Combat Maneuvers.
The fighter in our group is a Two-hander fighter. Does gob loads of damage. No matter how much he tries, his will save is garbage compared to the DCs of high level casters. He fails will saves often and ends up with a plethora of problems like when the Witch hexed him to take half the melee damage he dealt.
Monks have neither weakness of the above two characters. The monks weakness is he doesn't deal as much damage as the two above characters. He can't take the same beating as either as far as overall hit points. But defensively he is much better than both the barbarian and the fighter. His AC is much higher than both of them, especially his touch AC. He still manages to do fair damage. At least on par with a sword and board fighter and nearly what a Two-weapon fighter does.
Having experience running monks, I don't see the problem with them like I do rogues, especially at high level. There's a lot of optimized theorycrafting going on as to why monks are bad. But in actual gameplay, most of the theory doesn't hold up because the following is true:
1. It's not easy for fighters to have all good saves and maintain super high damage output.
2. It's not easy for every class to obtain the perfect magic item to counteract their weakness.
3. Monks that pick their gear and feats wisely are capable of doing excellent damage and being potent in combat. They are not limited to any less gear optimization than fighters.
4. Monks receive caster support just like fighters and any other class. Which means they benefit from bard songs. They have wizards and clerics healing and buffing them. Their party casters also help them set up attacks by dispeling freedom of movement spells and casting fly or true seeing on them as well.
People claiming monks are ineffective make all these assumptions like players that enjoy monks don't know how to optimize monk builds. But they do. They very much optimize their characters just like anyone else. And they end up being powerful enough to stand against most of what they fight including full BAB classes. I find it surprising that more people on this forum don't run with players that know how to create optimized monks. It's not that hard to do and they certainly do prove effective at higher level.
Again, please Mikaze you're one of the main people I see talking about "The Original VoP". I know you miss it, I know you want more flavor in your character. This is not something you need house rules for, nor something you need a trait for that specifically lays it out for you.
Tattooed Monks can actually do quite well and effectively do exactly what you're asking. Technically it's not a stretch to have a pseudo-tattoo done by preparing various parts of your body with sacred oils, or doing a training montage, or whatever you want to do. It has a mechanic.
What mechanic? If you're suggesting to simply overlay that flavor over standard magic gear and item enhancement, then that is depending entirely on a GM being willing to allow that special treatment, put up with the extra headache, and account for these items that "aren't really there" and whether they can be stolen/broken/dispelled and all the balance issues that spill out of that.
Such suggestions might be helpful to a GM. That is NOT an easy sell for a player to make.
It's not the Exalted Deeds VoP, not will it ever be. Some people really like the Vow's that Pathfinder has put in the way they are.And some people don't. The thing is, the people that are fine with the UM Vow have that option. Those that desire something like the original have nothing. Both groups should be able to have their option.
I'm not trying to pick on you, nor am I telling you to give up, I'm simply trying to help give you more ideas of options that are open to you within the system as it is.Also, for Monks being less dependent on equipment.. That has never been said or printed in any of the books. If you really want to stress a character with that view point then invest your money into other things.. Enchanted Monks Robes.. Tattoos.. Etc.....
I highly support Monk in it's current format. I have for quite some time. It's a fun class, highly defensive, good at what it does. In no way should the class ever gain bonuses in place of magic items that negate the use of those items.
I understand you are trying to find a method to play a Monk in a flavor of your choosing, and they already have a mechanic for that. Magical Tattoos exist in the game and can replicate the effect of any other magical item with GM approval. They do not count against your weight and you cannot lose them. They can be dispelled like normal magical items.
Tattoos do not specifically have to be "Ink on your skin" they can be thought of in other ways as well. Sacred Oils anointed to your body by holy people, a training montage sponsored by a teacher of some sort, whatever. As long as you treat it mechanically like a tattoo in all other respects, most importantly can be dispelled as per a magic item.
Monks nor anyone else in the game should be able to sacrifice their ability to obtain magical/expensive items to negate their reliance on them all together. It just does not fit the system.
I've said previously that if you want such a system and would like it in the game as some sort of fan supplement or house rule, I wholeheartedly support it. I cannot however get behind an official rulebook printing anything even similar to the Vow of Poverty as printed in the Book of Exalted Deeds. And I will continue to disagree with you on it should you continue to fight toward that goal.
Stuff..
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Monks imo are extremely fun to play as they are and theorycrafting/optimization does not hold up. In this game, people can be put in situations and gameplay where theorycraft does hold up like PFS and other Module based play with an ill-prepared or uncreative GM.
Any GM with experience however can counter optimization and easily make for a fun gaming experience. This is not an MMO and should not be treated as such.
Thank you for your well worded post Maddigan. :)
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I understand you are trying to find a method to play a Monk in a flavor of your choosing, and they already have a mechanic for that. Magical Tattoos exist in the game and can replicate the effect of any other magical item with GM approval. They do not count against your weight and you cannot lose them. They can be dispelled like normal magical items.
Tattoos do not specifically have to be "Ink on your skin" they can be thought of in other ways as well. Sacred Oils anointed to your body by holy people, a training montage sponsored by a teacher of some sort, whatever. As long as you treat it mechanically like a tattoo in all other respects, most importantly can be dispelled as per a magic item.
So again, you're suggesting that the solution is to count on the GM willing to do the work and houserule like hell. Because there ARE no mechanics for items -> magic tattoos. The only magic tattoos anywhere near official PF rules are a minor trait for half-orcs and, SURPRISE SURPRISE, a magic tattoo option for casters.
So excuse me while I continue to hope for an official option that actually helps make it easier to play the concept without having to beg for special treatment.
Monks nor anyone else in the game should be able to sacrifice their ability to obtain magical/expensive items to negate their reliance on them all together. It just does not fit the system.
So no martial class should be able to be fantastic without having to buy it through the work of a caster.
That's great....
I've said previously that if you want such a system and would like it in the game as some sort of fan supplement or house rule, I wholeheartedly support it.
Because you sure as hell were taking potshots at people wanting houserules for it.
I cannot however get behind an official rulebook printing anything even similar to the Vow of Poverty as printed in the Book of Exalted Deeds. And I will continue to disagree with you on it should you continue to fight toward that goal.
Cool beans. You keep arguing for Paizo to keep a desired concept shut out of the game and claiming that those who want it want badwrongfun. I'll keep arguing for people to have balanced official options to play the characters they want to play.
Because unlike you, I don't begrudge anyone having those options.
Because I'm tired and need to work a 14h shift in the morning, posting mostly finished build.. main skills are Acrobatics/Stealth with some bonuses to other skills when the stats go up and here and there for class skills.. General concept is there though..
Halfling 15 Monk/5 Barbarian (Brutal Pugilist)
25 Point Buy
Str 12
Dex 19
Con 12
Int 7
Wis 17
Cha 9
End Stats
Str 13
Dex 20
Con 12
Int 7
Wis 20
Cha 9
Stats after books
Str 18
Dex 24
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 24
Cha 10
Stats with Books/Items
Str 24
Dex 30
Con 22
Int 14
Wis 30
Cha 16
Hit Points (Max at 1st, 1/2+1 at all others)
Barbarian 40
Monk 75
Con 20
Toughness 20
Total 155
Favored Class: Monk (Halfling Variant +1 Grapple CMD +1/2 Stunning Attacks per level)
Variant Racial Trait: Swift as Shadows
Traits: Adopted (Elf: Warrior of Old), Reactionary
Sacrifice Hero Points for free feat.
Fast
Level Move Fort/Ref/Will BAB
Barb 1 10 2/0/0 1 Fast Movement, Rage, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Agile Maneuvers, Weapon Finesse
Barb 2 10 3/0/0 2 Rage Power (Knockback), Savage Grapple
Barb 3 10 3/1/1 3 Pit Fighter (+2 CMB to Grapple), Toughness
Barb 4 10 4/1/1 4 Rage Power (No Escape or Strength Surge)
Barb 5 10 4/1/1 5 Improved Savage Grapple, Dodge
Monk 1 10 6/3/3 5 Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
Monk 2 10 7/4/4 6/1 Evasion, Defensive Combat Training, Deflect Arrows, Greater Grapple
Monk 3 20 7/4/4 7/2 Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
Monk 4 20 8/5/5 8/3 Ki Pool (Magic), Slow Fall 20ft, Combat Reflexes
Monk 5 20 8/5/5 8/3 High Jump, Purity of Body
Monk 6 30 9/6/6 9/4 Slow Fall 30ft, Scorpion's Style, Power Attack
Monk 7 30 9/6/6 10/5 Wholeness of Body
Monk 8 30 10/7/7 11/6/1 Slow Fall 40ft, Lunge
Monk 9 40 10/7/7 11/6/1 Improved Evasion
Monk 10 40 11/8/8 12/7/2 Slow Fall 50ft, Ki Pool (Lawful), Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath
Monk 11 40 11/8/8 13/8/3 Diamond Body
Monk 12 50 12/9/9 14/9/4 Wind Stance, Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60ft
Monk 13 50 12/9/9 14/9/4 Diamond Soul
Monk 14 50 13/10/10 15/10/5 Lightning Stance, Improved Trip, 70ft Slow Fall
Monk 15 60 13/10/10 16/11/6/1 Quivering Palm
Atk 31
AC 55
CMB d20+35
CMD 60
Grapple CMB d20+41
Grapple CMD 79
Stunning Fist DC 30
Stunning Fist per day 16
Monk AC Bonus +5
Monk Unarmed Damage 2d8
Spell Resistance 25
Ki Pool 17
Rage Rounds 18
Items
Monks Robe 6,500gp
Bracers of Armor +8 32,000gp
Belt of Physical Perfection 77,000gp
Headband of Mental Superiority 77,000gp
Item of Natural Armor +5 25,000gp
+5 Amulet of Mighty Fists 62,500gp
+5 Cloak of Resistance 12,500gp
Manual of Gainful Exercise (Strength +5) 131,250gp
Manual of Bodily Health (Consitution +4) 105,000gp
Manual of Quickness of Action (Dexterity +4) 105,000gp
Tome of Understanding (Wisdom +4) 105,000gp
Tome of Clear Thought (Intelligence +1) 26,250gp
Tome of Leadership and Influence (Charisma +1) 26,250gp
Total Used 791,250gp
Total Allotment 880,000gp
Allotment left 88,750gp
Stuff..
If you're going to complain about me "taking pot shots at people suggesting house rules" and link over to a post, I suggest you actually read what I said.
I repeatedly said that I supported and encouraged House Rules and GM cooperation, and that I was firmly against it being written into the base rules.
And no, Magical items do not depend on casters to make them.
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Stuff..If you're going to complain about me "taking pot shots at people suggesting house rules" and link over to a post, I suggest you actually read what I said.
Oh, so I was imagining you telling people to stop asking for gearless monks to be able to do, and I'm putting this less offensively than you originally did, "ridiculous crap"?
Good to know!
I repeatedly said that I supported and encouraged House Rules and GM cooperation, and that I was firmly against it being written into the base rules.
Your suggested method, as vague and nebulous as it is, puts the burden almost entirely on the GM. Which is only further discouragement for a player to even ask.
Optional rules would take that pressure off and get hesitant players and GMs onboard where they would otherwise back out of having to do the extra work and worrying over balance.
And no, Magical items do not depend on casters to make them.
And yet that's where most of the magic mart crap comes from. And if you're suggesting that the monk make conventional gear himself, he's going to be even more MAD.
Something like this however, properly balanced and spelled out, would be a perfect fit for a lot of folks flavor of monk.
As long as they can only do it to themselves, it requires a feat to do, they pay a slight premium, and it can still be dispelled.. I don't have a problem with it.
All this discussion made me go and re-read the zen archer monk.
Man those are some good monks....
Scratch that, they are very good archers. (meaning that they can compete with an archer ranger or an archer fighter).
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Actually one of the very persistent arguments is that the monk can't maintain pace with the front line fighters when it comes to damage.To be perfectly fair, I think it does come up because it's part of the picture, as in: a character that can't deal comparable damage under any circumstances (e.g. the paladin can't match the fighter usually but it can if it's smiting, the rogue can't match a fighter usually but it's at least in the ball park if it can sneak, etc.) needs to bring something pretty significant offensively to make up for it. Then the second part of the picture is arguing that the monk doesn't.
Overall, it has pretty solid defenses, but...
Actually.
First round monk moves and uses stunning fist.
If it fails, it is normal damage. If it works, the monster can't move for a round (at minimum, assuming you didn't use the other status effect options instead).
So if it succeeds you get two rounds of actions to their one round of actions, they are flat-footed for sneak attacks, and you can do it more times a day than a paladin can smite.
When you consider a ki point adds another attack to a flurry, a 4th level monk can get three attacks at a time when most classes only have one attack. At higher levels if the stun succeeds when you add medusas wrath you get two extra attacks if you stun as part of a flurry.
How are these not high damage situations?
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The magic item argument vs. class abilities has always been a legit argument.
Ring of Evasion, helping other classes take no dmg from reflex AoE's since 3E. Is it special the rogue has it?
THe fly spell/items, avoiding dif terrain, subbing for Jump skill, and outrunning the monk until 11+ while solving movement problems for any class. And movement is a primary, scaling part of the monk class...but anyone can get it with some gold.
Items/spells subbing for class abilities is VERY valid against melee. Being able to Polymorph basically replaced the Melee character's role (Firbolgs with base 36 Str and +12 Nat AC, size L for Reach, tyvm). If one directed effect can consistently sub for or replace a character's uniqueness, he's not unique anymore. That's different then having to spend all your gold trying to replace what a spellcaster gets as a class ability. Trying to replicate a caster's full potential day after day would rapidly break your bank.
==Aelryinth
Only if you then keep in mind that what you are spending on items, I am also spending on other items that you can no longer afford because you spent your gold trying to do what I can do naturally. If you are going to by speed items, I'm going to buy other things as well.
Before we look at this build we need to get those items in check. Your pricing is way off.
Items
Monks Robe 6,500gp
Bracers of Armor +8 32,000gp
Belt of Physical Perfection 77,000gp
Headband of Mental Superiority 77,000gp
Item of Natural Armor +5 25,000gp
+5 Amulet of Mighty Fists 62,500gp
+5 Cloak of Resistance 12,500gp
Manual of Gainful Exercise (Strength +5) 131,250gp
Manual of Bodily Health (Consitution +4) 105,000gp
Manual of Quickness of Action (Dexterity +4) 105,000gp
Tome of Understanding (Wisdom +4) 105,000gp
Tome of Clear Thought (Intelligence +1) 26,250gp
Tome of Leadership and Influence (Charisma +1) 26,250gp
The real costs are.
Monks Robe 13,000gp
Bracers of Armor +8 64,000gp
Belt of Physical Perfection 144,000gp
Headband of Mental Superiority 144,000gp
Item of Natural Armor +5 50,000gp
+5 Amulet of Mighty Fists 125,000gp
+5 Cloak of Resistance 25,000gp
Manual of Gainful Exercise (Strength +5) 137,500gp
Manual of Bodily Health (Consitution +4) 110,000gp
Manual of Quickness of Action (Dexterity +4) 110,000gp
Tome of Understanding (Wisdom +4) 110,000gp
Tome of Clear Thought (Intelligence +1) 27,500gp
Tome of Leadership and Influence (Charisma +1) 27,500gp
To a grand total of 1,087,500. 207,500 gp over WBL.
Also, you need some means of flight, this is level 20 we're dealing with. So throw in some Winged Boots for 16,000 gp.
