I can't believe people can say such hateful things about an entire class. What if people said the same things about your mom as they say about the monk?
'your mom' is MAD.
'your mom' doesn't do as much damage as the fighter does.
Paizo hates 'your mom'.
'your mom' got no love from UM.
That really puts things in perspective, doesn't it?
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Anti-Monk stuff from someone who has never played a monk
1. Amulet of Mighty fists is for suckers. Someone else also pointed out brass knuckles, and I will add that your fists are magic for free at third, lawful at 10 and adamantine at 16th. And keep in mind if you have a Two Weapon build, you are paying for two weapons…which is why the cost of the amulet is what it is (in addition to it being able to be abused by many armed monsters)
2. 1st level monk with a 16 Wis and 12 Dex takes dodge (free monk feat) and you have a 15 AC (touch as well). Kick either up a notch and you have 16, which is fine at first level. So at first I have functionally two weapon fighting, stunning fist, unarmed strike, plus my normal first level feat. Save DC for stunning fist is going to be 14 if you have a 16 wisdom. And I have spent no money.3. Your rogue with a speed booster just spend money on a speed booster that I can spend on something else, maybe a Dex or wisdom booster which will raise my AC. Or maybe I get the speed booster if I want to get even faster. Also the rogue only has one good save, isn’t immune to disease and poison, and can’t heal himself. But both do have evasion.
4. You are completely blowing off the good saves and immunities, and they are very, very valuable things to have. Also, spell resistance at 13th.
5. 25% chance to stun...in addition to the damage you would do normally on an attack. Not separate from. And again, 25% is low.
So early in the game I have as many feats as a fighter, basically have two weapon fighting and can skip perquisites. Mid game I continue on the two weapon fighting chain without any feat penalty and don’t have the expenses for armor (or armor check penalties) so I can invest in item to improve dex or wis, which will improve my armor. Also, I am immune to lots of things, move at double a heavy armored character, have a huge jump bonus, evasion, good saves, and I can heal myself. Late game I have spell resistance, short range teleportation, a death attack…
Yup…weak sauce….
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I can't believe people can say such hateful things about an entire class. What if people said the same things about your mom as they say about the monk?
'your mom' is MAD.
'your mom' doesn't do as much damage as the fighter does.
Paizo hates 'your mom'.
'your mom' got no love from UM.That really puts things in perspective, doesn't it?
See, that's why the Antagonize feat works as intended :)
1. Amulet of Mighty fists is for suckers. Someone else also pointed out brass knuckles, and I will add that your fists are magic for free at third, lawful at 10 and adamantine at 16th. And keep in mind if you have a Two Weapon build, you are paying for two weapons…which is why the cost of the amulet is what it is (in addition to it being able to be abused by many armed monsters)
2. 1st level monk with a 16 Wis and 12 Dex takes dodge (free monk feat) and you have a 15 AC (touch as well). Kick either up a notch and you have 16, which is fine at first level. So at first I have functionally two weapon fighting, stunning fist, unarmed strike, plus my normal first level feat. Save DC for stunning fist is going to be 14 if you have a 16 wisdom. And I have spent no money.
3. Your rogue with a speed booster just spend money on a speed booster that I can spend on something else, maybe a Dex or wisdom booster which will raise my AC. Or maybe I get the speed booster if I want to get even faster. Also the rogue only has one good save, isn’t immune to disease and poison, and can’t heal himself. But both do have evasion.
4. You are completely blowing off the good saves and immunities, and they are very, very valuable things to have. Also, spell resistance at 13th.
5. 25% chance to stun...in addition to the damage you would do normally on an attack. Not separate from. And again, 25% is low.So early in the game I have as many feats as a fighter, basically have two weapon fighting and can skip perquisites. Mid game I continue on the two weapon fighting chain without any feat penalty and don’t have the expenses for armor (or armor check penalties) so I can invest in item to improve dex or wis, which will improve my armor. Also, I am immune to lots of things, move at double a heavy armored character, have a huge jump bonus, evasion, good saves, and I can heal myself. Late game I have spell resistance, short range teleportation, a...
+1
There are just so many people that think that you play a monk like other melee classes. Fools :)
Actually I hope that UC doesn't "fix" the monk. I don't want to see people play the class that suddenly see the light because AwesomeFeatureX has been published.
Same with a lot of things in Ultimate Magic. Masterpieces, for example, are awesome - but they get lots of hate because they generally don't help you kill stuff better. All I ask from UC is that it is the martial equivalent of UM (with a slightly higher quality of editing).
Just to clear a few things up:
Even assuming for 25% which can be rather liberal with the monk's power, that still means 3/4 times you spend your turn doing nothing. That sucks. Remember this, it comes up again!
The stunning fist isn't all the monk is doing that round. Even if the stun doesn't work, he still deals damage. He can still use maneuvers if he knows any. Remember that while the example give earlier was a horned devil, that's not the only CR 16 opponent possible. Hopefully the wise monk will know when to use his abilities.
Get a rogue, buy a speed booster. Boom, instant monk.
So you do agree that gear can make the difference yet you want to discount brass knuckles in this conversation? Sounds like a double standard to me.
People aren't really talking about AC.
Here's the problem: AC matters at level 1, where attacks can come close to being a one hit kill, and AC has a good chance of changing that. As you go up in level, however, attack, bonuses skyrocket, and more and more it's assured that the first attack, then the second attack, and potentially even the third attack is going to hit. Monks start with low AC when it matters, and only make it up when it doesn't. As for extra money, you don't have any. You don't! Your "weapon" - the necklace - costs dramatically more then any actual weapon does. Woops.
When people talk about hitting or not being hit, they are talking about AC. That's the primary determining factor on whether or not you can hit or be hit in combat (barring area effects).
It is very easy for a monk (or almost any character for that matter) to keep his AC relevant at all levels of play. Remember that relevant does not mean 95% chance of stopping all attacks.
Also, why is the monk's weapon assumed to be the amulet? There are plenty of other options as well. All monk weapons are available and can be magically enhanced as well. The monk can even find ways to use his abilities through his weapons. Certain archetypes make this option even more worthy. Remember that the monk can combine weapon and non-weapon attacks as long as those weapons are monk weapons.
But they don't have "skill monkey" skills. They don't have fighter damage. They don't have ranger/paladin utility. They don't have divine caster heals and buffs. They don't have arcane caster controls and game changers. And by this I don't mean "they do it poorly," I mean "it's nonexistent."
Let's take at a class that is a "jack-of-all-trades" for comparison: the bard.The bard has 6 skills and a lot more useful class skills, but more then that he had Bardic Knack, which added 1/2 his level to all skills in 3.x, and in Pathfinder he has Versatile Performer, which is slightly more specialized but goes under the same idea. He has arcane spells that could heal, buff, debuff, and do a fair amount of controlling. He could boost himself and do a fair amount of damage, too. He wasn't as skill-monkey as the rogue, he wasn't as damage dealy as the fighter, he wasn't as heal-buff as the divine caster, he wasn't as controlling as the wizard, but he could do each of those a fair amount.
The claim wasn't that monks are a skill monkey class. The claim is that they have a reasonable amount of skill points and don't have to be left behind like some other classes (fighter and cleric come immediately to mind). In addition, with the monk's improved movement, some skills like stealth, swim, climb, and acrobatics actually see a bit of an improvement.
The monk does not have the same role as a bard so comparing the two is pointless. The bard buffs the party or debuffs the enemy. The monk was never meant to do that so it's not a reasonable comparison. The monk can deal enough damage or lock down the enemy often enough to remain useful. Of course this is going to be campaign dependent. To make sure that no one thinks I'm saying that the GM needs to favor the monk to keep it viable. I mean that the GM is not limited to a handful of opponents of equal CR in the Bestiary. With so many different ways to advance monsters or use NPCs, we don't have to limit our conversations to just a few beasties. A GM that uses multiple weaker opponents instead of a single more powerful opponent can often have a more memorable encounter.
See, here's the thing. Monks don't have a niche. They don't have a role. And they don't have utility. Unlike the bard, they can't full different roles. They lack the versatility ultimately needed to be the "jack-of-all-trades." They are the jack of no trades. More then that, the bard has things only a bard can do with his bard song. The monk doesn't have that. Every "monk" ability the monk has is a copy of another feat, a spell, or another class' ability.
This is not really true. There is some cross-over with every class, but that remains true with all classes. Are clerics useless because they share spells with wizards and channeling with paladins? Of course not. To assume that the monk is useless because of similar cross-over is just as silly.
Remember that "3/4ths chance to fail utterly and be useless" I mentioned? Yeah, that sounds a lot like win/all fail to me. Only with dramatically less winning. Unless you mean WINNING!
No one has said that the monk is only useful 25% of the time. That was you intentionally ignoring a portion of what was said. And remember that spells aren't always effective either. Does that mean that casters are useless? Obviously not. The monk, in the right party with the right player, will do just fine and can even shine. The monk in my campaign right now has up to 10 attacks in a single round, with the first five attacks at +24. The bestiary puts the AC for CR 16 at 31. This monk is level 16 (and the player hasn't finished leveling him up so he still has 1 feat to choose, 14 skill points to spend, and an attribute bonus to add in, plus has 141000 gold still to spend). His odds of hitting are: 70/70/70/70/70/45/45/20/20/-5. If he hits on any of those attacks, he can attempt to use his stunning fist (or other effect depending on the situation). Even if that doesn't work, he still deals 2d10+5 per hit. That may only be about 45 points of damage that round, it is still about 20% of the creature's hit points. Since this monk can also trip (he has Greater Trip and his CMB +49 for tripping which means he succeeds 95% of the time against the aforementioned horned devil) this means he can get an attack of opportunity against the tripped opponent (that's +28 to hit the prone opponent). He can take 7 attacks of opportunity each round. I have seen him get 15 attacks in a single round. I have seen him take an attack of opportunity to trip an opponent and then use another attack of opportunity because the trip was successful. To make it worse for the opponent, everyone else within reach can also attack that prone opponent.
He doesn't deal as much as the two-handed fighter. He doesn't deal as much as the sword and board fighter. He helps a lot though, by making the enemy just that much easier to deal with.
I can't believe people can say such hateful things about an entire class. What if people said the same things about your mom as they say about the monk?
'your mom' is MAD.
'your mom' doesn't do as much damage as the fighter does.
Paizo hates 'your mom'.
'your mom' got no love from UM.That really puts things in perspective, doesn't it?
Sometimes the mom in question actually is all of those things :)
To adapt a quote.
If you meet a MethMommie on the road...
That's the primary determining factor on whether or not you can hit or be hit in combat (barring area effects).
Um, no.
That's positioning sir. A person's position determines everything about whether they'll get hit or not. Distance, flanking, reach, these are much more important than AC especially in the higher levels.
That's the primary determining factor on whether or not you can hit or be hit in combat (barring area effects).Um, no.
That's positioning sir. A person's position determines everything about whether they'll get hit or not. Distance, flanking, reach, these are much more important than AC especially in the higher levels.
When I read the combat section I find that in order to hit you must roll against the opponent's Armor Class. Distance, flanking, reach, etc all affect your attack bonus or increase how far you can attack your opponent but in the end, if you can't get past the AC, you aren't going to hit.
To the people clamoring that the monk is fine/great, and that everybody that doesn't think so just doesn't know how to play one, I've got a question.
Would you refuse improvements to the monk on the grounds that it's fine as it is?
i am all about some improvements a complete rewrite is unecesary but a feat for wisdom for damage ok i could see that only problem is it means bam every monk will take it.
some interesting martial arts feats might make the whole thing more interesting
To the people clamoring that the monk is fine/great, and that everybody that doesn't think so just doesn't know how to play one, I've got a question.
Would you refuse improvements to the monk on the grounds that it's fine as it is?
I don't have a problem with improving any class so long as those improvements are warranted. For example, I think that monks should be able to take feats as if their Base Attack Bonus was equal to their monk level. They can't use the feat unless they are using a flurry of blows, but they should be able to take it. For example, a monk should be able to take Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) at level 1 but can only use it during a flurry. To me it's the same as a druid taking power attack but he can only use it when he wild shapes into something that brings his Strength up to at least 13.
i thought you could take feats without preq but just couldn't use them untill you got the preqs or maybe im thinking of having magic items help you get the preq and if you lose the item you can't use the feat.
When I read the combat section I find that in order to hit you must roll against the opponent's Armor Class. Distance, flanking, reach, etc all affect your attack bonus or increase how far you can attack your opponent but in the end, if you can't get past the AC, you aren't going to hit.
If you had read the combat section than I shouldn't be telling you that the most basic, and first thing checked before any attack rolls are made is whether or not an attack can or cannot be made. You cna have an attack bonus up to infinity but it doesn't mean anything if I'm sitting behind a place you can't reach, or are sitting several hundred feet away with a line of archers and no means for you to get to me quickly.
After that you look for things like cover, flanking, terrain, higher ground and all that to see what bonuses/penalties apply. This increases or decreases your chances to effectively hit and in some cases may even increase the damage being down.
Then you make appropriate attack or saving rolls.
Combat has not and has never been two dudes slugging at each others AC scores. That's partly why thigns like the Travel/Liberation domains are considered so good and why Initiative is rated so highly.
When I read the combat section I find that in order to hit you must roll against the opponent's Armor Class. Distance, flanking, reach, etc all affect your attack bonus or increase how far you can attack your opponent but in the end, if you can't get past the AC, you aren't going to hit.If you had read the combat section than I shouldn't be telling you that the most basic, and first thing checked before any attack rolls are made is whether or not an attack can or cannot be made. You cna have an attack bonus up to infinity but it doesn't mean anything if I'm sitting behind a place you can't reach, or are sitting several hundred feet away with a line of archers and no means for you to get to me quickly.
After that you look for things like cover, flanking, terrain, higher ground and all that to see what bonuses/penalties apply. This increases or decreases your chances to effectively hit and in some cases may even increase the damage being down.
Then you make appropriate attack or saving rolls.
Combat has not and has never been two dudes slugging at each others AC scores. That's partly why thigns like the Travel/Liberation domains are considered so good and why Initiative is rated so highly.
So how do you plan on dealing damage if you can't hit your opponent? In the end, after everything is taken into account, you have to make that attack roll. Combat is Attack Roll versus Armor Class. Spells and area of effects are a bit different, but in general that's all combat is. No matter how complex or interesting you want to make the combat (which I support 100%), it's still going to be Attack Roll versus Armor Class.
You really should go back and read what I said initially. Armor Class matters because if it's too low then you get hit easily. If it's too high, then you can't hit your opponent easily enough. That's all I'm saying. You can find whatever bonuses or penalties you want but in the end it's going to come down to needing to hit that armor class. I'm not sure why there is any real disagreement on this.
i thought you could take feats without preq but just couldn't use them untill you got the preqs or maybe im thinking of having magic items help you get the preq and if you lose the item you can't use the feat.
I wish it were the case:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
I can work with this rule, I just wish it wasn't the case. I'm not a big fan of introducing house rules in my games but this is one that I have considered. My players have not argued for it so I have not implemented it.
Ok, The way I see it is this.
The game is predicated on a 15 point buy.
It is further predicated on a certain WBL.
If you use the base assumptions you get the following results.
Damage: Monk < Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/(Paladin VS Evil)/Summoner/Druid/Rogue/Bard(If you count the bard's inspire courage as part of her damage)/Blaster Wizard/Basically almost any build that focuses on damage will out DPR the monk if both are optimized to the same level. This is not to say a healing focused cleric will out DPR the monk, that is just silly. Just that The monk in comparison to other characters built as damage dealers has a lower ceiling.
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Skills: Monk < Rogue/Bard/Usually Wizard due to high int with int being a monk dump stat/Witch the same/Perhaps other classes as well as some melee will want 13 int for combat expertise so as to achieve Gangup and combine it with Outflank. If a melee does this that means they receive 3 skill points at least, 4 if human. Whereupon the monk will most likely be getting 2-3 due to needing to dump int to stay competitive. Without dumping Int a monk will have 4-5 skill points, still not enough to be a truly versatile skills master. Definitively not enough to compete with a rogue or bard built for skills.
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AC: Monk does ok here, not outstanding but ok.
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Saves: Monk saves can be good but Paladin gets what monk gets and also Charisma to saves along with a better set of class features, so the monk saves are overemphasized and overpriced in terms of character build. Heck the Magus gets good Fort and Will saves.
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Mobility: A monk is the fastest thing in the game. however a party without Haste/Boots of Speed is a foolish party if the do any relevant amount/CR worth of combat. This means that the party will all be moving at 40-60 each making the monk at most 30ft faster. The monk may also not take advantage of haste due to both haste and his movement bonus having the same type (enhancement).
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Utility: The monk has very very little utility. Almost all classes offer more with perhaps the exception of the fighter.
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In short, you can build a monk who does acceptable damage, or has acceptable skills. The same monk may has decent AC and Good saves. The same monk will have slightly higher mobility in combat as the other characters and if out of combat moving ahead alone is usually a bad idea. (Don't Split The Party). The monk will offer very few to no buffs and or utility.
This means that in every circumstance that a monk is barely capable in another character class can do it better. This includes being a melee based Jack-of-All-Trades whereupon the bard rules.
The monk will excel in only one thing. Surviving to run away. That is just not something that appeals to me.
This is assuming your paladin with his equal or greater Ac and saves does not have haste (Mithral fullplate of speed...) so is not running almost as fast as you to get away.
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I feel horrible about this. I love the monk fluff and the idea, however mechanically monk is a subpar choice in every circumstance assuming equal resources and optimization.
I want monk to be better, I really do I like the class fluff, but not the crunch.
I wish people would acknowledge this so as to allow for monk to be buffed to be equal to the other melee and make it a valid choice.
I want cool mechanically viable monks.
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P.S. All of this is based on playing with monk in hero labs for the last 6 weeks and never finding a solution, along with 15 years of D&D/Role-Playing experience.
So how do you plan on dealing damage if you can't hit your opponent?
Really? You're asking that? In a game where spellcasters can wipe entire encounters without ever needing to make a single attack roll? Where you can pin someone and tie them up so your fighter can just Coup De Grace them?
I mean it's not even an argument here. Never allowing the attack>relying on AC. I mean did we forget about CMD, saves, and critical hits while I was out?
Instead of being a Martial Arts master who moves around the battlefield pummeling opponents right and left, the mechanics of the class force you to either stand your graound and full attack so that you can use FoB or flit around the battlefield and settle for doing very little damage per round.Just like a Wizard can choose between Hold Monster and Magic Missile, the Monk can choose between FoB and Disarm/Trip/Stun/etc.
Agree here. I find the monk still MAD, and I think that a little bit more care from the authors' part could have been nice (tweaking abundant step, allow greater versions of maneuvers).
Nevertheless, the lack of synergy between FoB and fast movements does not strikes me as bad. Just choose what's better for the situation. Honestly, I always found this complain really, really weak, and weakening more logical ones.
So how do you plan on dealing damage if you can't hit your opponent?
Really? You're asking that? In a game where spellcasters can wipe entire encounters without ever needing to make a single attack roll? Where you can pin someone and tie them up so your fighter can just Coup De Grace them?
I mean it's not even an argument here. Never allowing the attack>relying on AC. I mean did we forget about CMD, saves, and critical hits while I was out?
Yes, I'm asking that question. But make sure you go back and read that I specifically mention that spells and area of effect are exempt from this.
CMD requires you to still be able to hit your opponent. It works just like AC. Critical hits require you to hit your opponent. I'm intentionally not going to discuss saves because they either fall under "magic and area of effect" or "you still need to hit your opponent's AC."
I know you are desperately trying to be right here but no matter how you slice it, if you can't hit your opponent then you can't damage your opponent. AC is the primary way to avoid being hit. Are there other means? Sure. Are they as common as AC? Nope. They don't even come close.
There is no way your monk can survive to level 16, at least not with me as GM or my current GM. A frontline fighter with a d8 and only 12 con holy smokes my friggin sorcerer have more hps.I have agreed that if a player is in the "training wheels" style of play where they are using "roles", they are going to have difficulty playing monks - because monks don 't fill any of the "classic" roles.
Onca a player's skill advances to the point where they no longer need "roles", they'll have a chance of playing monks effectively.
Maybe I missed it but where did he say how many hit points his monk has? How can you make a comparison without any data?
I know many people who play casters would not make it level 16 in my games. The biggest reason I have seen is player arrogance. They think that they can do anything and that I won't target them for it. The wizard in my current campaign has been killed twice so far and nearly dead so many times I've lost count. Why? He thought he was a god. He wasn't.
Oh, and the monk is not a front line fighter. That could be the problem you are having with the class.
Damage: Monk < Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/(Paladin VS Evil)/Summoner/Druid/Rogue/Bard(If you count the bard's inspire courage as part of her damage)/Blaster Wizard/Basically almost any build that focuses on damage will out DPR the monk if both are optimized to the same level. This is not to say a healing focused cleric will out DPR the monk, that is just silly. Just that The monk in comparison to other characters built as damage dealers has a lower ceiling.
That is a pretty empty claim, the DPR Olympics suggest that the monk does better than that. A summoner and an archer fighter are of the highest DPR possible, no arguments - but the monk outperforms or equals all the other options. Rogue's and bards cannot even mix it up in the same context.
And I'm not even counting "cheating" monks like Zen Archers.
Positioning is more important than AC. You can have a +1000 to your BAB and you still won't hit the enemy with your longsword if the enemy is 30 feet away. This is particularly relevant to a class like the monk who is pretty effective in controlling where he's positioned in relation to anyone else.
I take the -8 to hit and throw the sword at you :)
Cheeky answer aside, I have to agree that positioning, miss chances, and special abilities are much more relevant than ac.
Seriously, why?
They need 4 stats to be of any use to the party.
Dumping STR means no real damage
Dumping DEX means you get hit by everything because you cant wear armor
Dumping CON means you can't take hits at all
Dumping WIS means no Ki pool, stunning fist, or ACProblem... help
First this.
Now on to the main point, shortened since Treantmonk's guide was already posted.
1. Dex isn't that important. Focus on Wisdom and Strength. If you just have a 16 in wisdom you are wearing the equivalent of a chain shirt by 4th level without any other enhancements. Potions of owls wisdom are cheap, and all of this is against touch AC and with no armor checks or movement penalties.
2. You basically get full BAB two weapon fighting for free unlike other two weapon builds you don't need to meet pre-requisites.
3. You have as many feats as a fighter at 1st level and 2nd level and can skip pre-requisites for monk feats. This includes dodge if you are worried about AC.
4. You get free weapons and don't need to spend money on armor, so your money goes to other things.
5. You have all good saves. All of them.
6. Stunning fists save goes up as you level.
When you play a monk, you can do a lot of things, depending on what your party needs. It isn't a tank, but it can. It isn't a rogue, but it has the best chance of surviving the trap with good saves and immunities. It has an attack against fort saves for when you meet casters...
Seriously just read treantmonks guide.
That and the Addition of the Qinggong Monk (Archetype)along with the new rules for Brass Knuckles improved the Monk a lot.
Positioning is more important than AC. You can have a +1000 to your BAB and you still won't hit the enemy with your longsword if the enemy is 30 feet away. This is particularly relevant to a class like the monk who is pretty effective in controlling where he's positioned in relation to anyone else.
Screw it. Obviously people are just being obtuse. It should be obvious that I am talking about when you are in a position to actually strike at your opponent with any chance of success. I shouldn't have to spell that out with a 50 page dissertation on the subject. Common sense needs to come into the conversation at some point. The fact that I actually said that once all factors are accounted for, non-spell casting and non-area of effect combat boils down to Attack versus AC should have been enough to move beyond this. At this point, I see no reason to continue the conversation.
Positioning is more important than AC. You can have a +1000 to your BAB and you still won't hit the enemy with your longsword if the enemy is 30 feet away. This is particularly relevant to a class like the monk who is pretty effective in controlling where he's positioned in relation to anyone else.I take the -8 to hit and throw the sword at you :)
Cheeky answer aside, I have to agree that positioning, miss chances, and special abilities are much more relevant than ac.
For the love of Pete, AC is the primary thing that comes into play. It comes into play far more often than anything else. In fact, it even comes into play with miss chances. How do you plan on actually hitting your target if you don't take AC into account?
I'm playing this monk in Serpent's Skull:
Rameej Theggar, LN Monk [Hungry Ghost Archetype]
AC: 10+3+2+1+1=17/17/14, HP: 41/-12, Init +3, Speed 40'
BAB +3
Melee Single Punch with Power Attack +9/1d8+7+1d6 Acid+1d4 Bleed, 20/2x
(3 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike], +5 STR, +1 MW Brass Knuckles, -1 Power Attack)/(+5 STR, +2 Power Attack, Amulet of Corrosive Fists, Belier's Bite),
Melee Flurry Punches +9/1d8+7+1d6 Acid, 20/2x/+9/1d8+7+1d6 Acid, 20/2x, [+9/1d8+7+1d6 Acid, 20/2x]+1d4 Bleed per target hit.
(3 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike], +5 STR, +1 MW Brass Knuckles, -1 Power Attack)/(+5 STR, +2 Power Attack, Amulet of Corrosive Fists, Belier's Bite),
Ranged Flurry [Masterwork Shuriken]: +7/1d2+5, +7/1d2+5, 20/2x (4 BAB, +2 DEX, +1 MW)
CMB: +10, +12 with Grapple,
CMD: 25.
Fort: +5, Ref: +7, Will: +6
Stats: STR 16+2+(2)[10], DEX 15+1[7]], CON 12[2], INT 10[0], WIS 14[5], CHA 7[-4]
Traits: Sacred Touch (Stabilize another as a Standard Action), Anatomist (+1 to confirm criticals).
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Toughness, Belier's Bite, Dodge [M]; Improved Grapple [M]; Power Attack; Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike]
Favored Class: Monk, Hit Points x3, Extra Ki Pool x 2
Ki Pool: 4.5 Ki Points
Ki Powers:
Fists are Magical Weapons (0 Ki points)
Barkskin (Replaces Slow Fall) (50 minute duration, +2 Natural Armor) (1 ki point)
+20' Move (1 ki point)
1 additional attack in flurry at highest bonus (1 ki point)
+20 Acrobatics to Jump (1 ki point)
Steal Ki (Replaces Purity of Body) (replenish 1 ki on dropping opponent to 0 or fewer HPs, confirmed crit) (0 ki points)
Punishing Kick 5x/day: Either shove opponent back 5 feet, or knock prone versus a DC 14 Fort Save.
Evasion (No damage on successful Reflex save)
Fast Movement +10'. Still Mind (+2 Will vs Enchantmeent). Maneuver Training (Full Monk Level added to CMB)
High Jump (always running start for Jump, add Monk Level to Acrobatics for Jumping)
In round numbers, against a CR 5 opponent (typical AC is 18 at that level per the PRD), I hit on a 9 or higher (60% of the time) for about 15 average damage and 1d4 bleed.
Character has a +2 STR belt
Character has an Amulet of Mighty Fists providing 1d6 Acid damage per strike. When more money comes up, I'll be adding Electricity to that.
Character has a wand of Mage Armor for a buddy to use on him.
Character has a pair of cold iron masterwork brass knuckles.
Character can spend 1 ki for 2 AC that lasts for 50 minutes (Quinggong Monk specifically allows combinations with other archetypes...)
Character replenishes ki like nobody's business.
This thread is about Monks. The primary defense of Monks is positioning. To assume that Monks are just going to stay stuck in one place, like a Fighter and not take advantage of stuff like half moves, stealth, etc. when fighting is nerfing the monk.
If you're interested in immobile claases' dependence on AC, that might be more on topic in a diffrent thread.
Okay I have to ask, your monks stand next to someone and do their maneuver or whatever, it might succeed, you might have wasted your turn. Either way your eating a full attack next round, so your almost dead, but WAIT! Your Mr. Super mobile monk guy! You flee! (after having done virtually nothing to help your party) and! AOO... okay so we will give you some leeway and say your still standing and you got to far for the monster to hit.
We have two options from here, stay out of the fight (hoping their are no ranged attackers, and contributing nothing), or run back in at someone else (maybe that aforementioned ranged attacker) in a last ditch attempt to contribute something (and still having a 50% chance to fail) before falling unconscious.
I honestly can't think of how your imagining this to go, I'd like to hear your version. (I would also like to point out that this completely ignores your FOB, effectively wasting that class feature, this is what we are talking about when we ask for some coherence between abilities)
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I honestly can't think of how your imagining this to go, I'd like to hear your version. (I would also like to point out that this completely ignores your FOB, effectively wasting that class feature, this is what we are talking about when we ask for some coherence between abilities)
How you play your monk depends on your party. Looking at how other classes view you.
- Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues and Paladins all love having a flanking buddy who has enough movement to run around to the position that needs to be flanked. They also like that sometimes you stun the baddie so he doesn't get a full attack against you.
- Wizards and Sorcerers love you because your movement means you can move into positions to protect them from baddies. They fear you because you have a fort based attack and all good saves.
- Clerics and Oracles like having someone who can go retrieve the body, and can heal themselves a little for a change while they are taking care of everyone else, and doesn't soak restoration spells for diseases and poisons all the time.
- Bard and Monks are like peas and carrots, since everyone loves buffs. But bards are pretty much peas and carrots with everyone, aren't they?
The monk two step is move in and try to stun on the first attack, preferably in flanking positions. If you succeed, you get a full flurry next round, which will also include a stun. If not, you moved in and did damage...just like every other class that does melee attacks...
If you get hurt, you have the mobility to escape. You are immune to many special attacks and have high saves against the rest.
If you don't see this being useful in your group, I don't know what to tell you.
- Barbarians, Fighters, Rogues and Paladins all love having a flanking buddy who has enough movement to run around to the position that needs to be flanked. They also like that sometimes you stun the baddie so he doesn't get a full attack against you.
Why is the fighter more then 30ft away from the bad guy in the first place? Any other two person combination of the classes listed above would either do more damage or survive longer then any one with a monk.
- Wizards and Sorcerers love you because your movement means you can move into positions to protect them from baddies. They fear you because you have a fort based attack and all good saves.
Your biggest defense is running away and your standard attack is a joke (whether it is a maneuver or not). How are you protecting anybody? And last I checked, until level I think 16 monks can't fly without wasting an action, how are they even hitting that wizard with their stunning fist?
- Clerics and Oracles like having someone who can go retrieve the body, and can heal themselves a little for a change while they are taking care of everyone else, and doesn't soak restoration spells for diseases and poisons all the time.
Turns out you probably don't need to retrieve a body if the monk was replaced with someone who could have contributed and ended the fight sooner. monk healing is a joke so that isn't relevant, and their immunities come up once in a blue moon, probably doesn't bother the cleric too much if he even notices.
- Bard and Monks are like peas and carrots, since everyone loves buffs. But bards are pretty much peas and carrots with everyone, aren't they?
cant disagree on how awesome bards can make anyone, imagine if he wasn't wasting it on the monk.
The monk two step is move in and try to stun on the first attack, preferably in flanking positions. If you succeed, you get a full flurry next round, which will also include a stun. If not, you moved in and did damage...just like every other class that does melee attacks...
IF you succeed you can do a little damage, if not you eat a full attack and your one hit wasn't even noticed.
If you get hurt, you have the mobility to escape. You are immune to many special attacks and have high saves against the rest.
If you don't see this being useful in your group, I don't know what to tell you.
oh good I'll survive in tpk situations how useful. So no, I don't see the usefulness.
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Why is the fighter more then 30ft away from the bad guy in the first place? Any other two person combination of the classes listed above would either do more damage or survive longer then any one with a monk.
You are kidding right? You start combat with 30 feet of all bad guys?
Even if fighter moves his max to engage, the monk has enough movement to get to the other side and flank. That is the point, and that is one of his many added value features.
Your biggest defense is running away and your standard attack is a joke (whether it is a maneuver or not). How are you protecting anybody? And last I checked, until level I think 16 monks can't fly without wasting an action, how are they even hitting that wizard with their stunning fist?
Unarmored fragile wizard gets attacked, Monk can either a) Position better monster and wizard to block charge, b) come engage what is attacking him so the wizard can fall back and cast without risking being charged next round...do you not use miniatures in your game?
I mean seriously, if you can't figure out how extra movement is useful for protecting casters...yeah...different games we are playing I suspect.
Overland flight is a 5th level spell, so your wizard is 9th level before they have access to it, and if that is what you are doing with your first 5th level spell...ok...
As to the rest...seriously you weren't even trying. I suspect a monk killed your father or something.
The monk has all good saves, lots of immunities, a solid fort based stun attack (that deafens/blinds/etc...later) great mobility...
It is a useful class in every group I've seen one played by someone halfway competent.
Here is a Koan:
8th level Fighter in plate moves 30' for a single move. Using +2 flaming greatsword. Fighter's AC was 10+9+2+1+1+1=24 (9 armor, 2 Dex (armor training raised the limit), 1 each from deflection, nat armor and +1 enhancement on the armor.)
7th level monk. Moves 60' for a single move. Monk has an AC of 10+3+2+1+3+4+3+2=28 (3 DEX, 2 WIS, 1 Monk, 3 Dodge+Combat Expertise, 4 Mage Armor (wand), 3 Barkskin (self cast for 1 ki), 2 Shield of Faith potion)
They start out 120 feet apart.
Monk single moves 60'. Holds his Standard action.
Fighter charges Monk, Power Attack ready, swinging at 8+6+2+1+2-3=+16 with charge bonus. If it connects, it'll do 2d6+18+1d6 damage. Fighter rolls a 15.
Monk spends a Ki point as an immediate action and makes that a miss.
Monk's standard action is a Disarm. Fighter is very surprised, because Monks never take Improved Disarm, because it requires an INT of 13. Who ever heard of a Monk with an INT of 13? Is that allowed? Aren't all Monks built with INT of 7 and CHA of 7?
Monk rolls his Disarm with his Sai, but has one hand free.
Fighter's CMD is 10+8+6+2+1+1-2=25 (10+8 BAB, 6 STR, 2 DEX, 1 for Weapon Training, 1 for +1 on sword, 1 for Deflection bonus to AC, -2 for a charge)
Monk's CMB is 7+5+2+2-2=+14 (7 Monk levels due to Combat Maneuvers, +5 for STR, +2 for Improved Disarm, +2 for Sai, -2 for Combat Expertise). Monk rolls a 12. Monk now has physical possession of the flaming greatsword, since he has a hand free.
Next round, Fighter draws his backup Kukri and, having used his Move action to change weapons, makes a single attack, using Power Attack. Bonus is 8+6+1-3=+12. Monk still has an AC of 32. Fighter rolls a 15. Monk *laughs*.
Monk's next action: He spends 1 Ki point to add +20' to his movement. He performs a Run action. He will force an AoO at an AC that loses his DEX and prior turn's Ki bonus, so he's only got an AC of 25.
Fighter does his AoO and rolls a critical threat - 18 with a Kukri. Fighter fails to confirm the critical.
Monk takes 14 damage.
Monk moves 320' away from the fighter. Hands the +2 flaming greatsword to his good pal the Ranger. Says "Your turn!"
Monk has taken more damage (14) than the fighter (0).
Who won the fight?
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Monk's standard action is a Disarm. Fighter is very surprised, because Monks never take Improved Disarm, because it requires an INT of 13. Who ever heard of a Monk with an INT of 13? Is that allowed? Aren't all Monks built with INT of 7 and CHA of 7
Fighter doesn't know the rules ;)
"A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them."
Here is a Koan:
Just a question, how does Koan have a 20 strength, 14 wisdom, 16 dexterity, and a 13 intelligence(from combat expertise, improved disarm could be a bonus feat)? Also, how does he have Shield of Faith, Mage Armor, and Barkskin but the Fighter doesn't have a single buffing spell or potion?
Here is a Koan:Just a question, how does Koan have a 20 strength, 14 wisdom, 16 dexterity, and a 13 intelligence(from combat expertise, improved disarm could be a bonus feat)? Also, how does he have Shield of Faith, Mage Armor, and Barkskin but the Fighter doesn't have a single buffing spell or potion?
The monk has this build:
Initial STR of 18 (10 points), DEX of 14 (5 points), CON of 11 (1 point), INT of 13 (3 points), WIS of 14 (5 points) and CHA of 7 (-4 points).
4th level stat boost to CON.
So, since your next question is going to be "Well, if the Monk gets toys why doesn't the fighter..."
Monk:
+2 STR/DEX belt: 10,000 GP.
Pearl of Power 1st level spells: 1,000 GP Lend this to his buddy the wizard, who casts Mage Armor off of it every morning.
Barkskin he cast on himself for 1 ki (See Quinggong monk)
50 GP for a potion.
Masterwork Sai (302 GP)
Total Net Worth In Toys: 11,352 GPs
Fighter:
+2 Flaming Greatsword: (18,350 GP)
+1 Full Plate Armor (2,650 GP)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 GP),
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 GP)
Belt of Giant Strength (4,000 GP), adding to a 18 STR that got +1 at 4th and +1 at 8th.
Total Net Worth In Toys: 29,000 GP
I did make two mistakes on this:
The Monk is only covering 50' per turn, rather than 60'. Which means that the fight starts at about 110' of separation, and his Run Away With Toys part only covers 200' of ground movement, not 240'.
Also, the Monk had masterwork on the Sai helps with the Disarm, and Threatening Defender as a Trait, so there's an additional +2 to the CMB on the Disarm check.
Who won the fight?