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Over the last year or so, I've come to learn that whenever I play a fighter (or physical combatant) my fellow roleplayers HATE IT.
Why? Because I fight like a brawler in a movie.
In other words:
- I cut the chandelier line to crush enemies beneath it
- I flip a bar table end over end like a coin to cause it to crash into a group of enemies
- I use my rope and grappling hook to hook the peryton's antlers and rip it out of the air with brute strength
- I throw my longsword at a fleeing enemy
- I use my rope and grappling hook to create a tripwire to trip multiple enemies
- I reach up, grab the dragon's nose hairs, swing down and hook my feet under it's jaws so it can't open his mouth to breathe fire for all the intense pain I'm giving him (ever rip out a nose hair? it's smarts!)
- Stick a 10-foot pole in a purple worm's mouth in hopes of not being swallowed whole for one more round
- Ready an action to dive out of the way of a ranged attack so it continues on its trajectory to target an enemy standing behind me
...and so on and so on. I do whatever seems like fun and at all likely to work. Much of the time, the GM wings various checks and combat maneuvers and lets me "give it a shot."
The problem? The other players.
These tricks, although awesome, often don't work out. Even when they do, simply standing there trading blows like an idiot with full attacks is often the better mechanical option. As my fellow players might put it: "What good does tripping 5 enemies all at once when they are still alive and standing in the next round?"
As such, my fellow players HATE IT when I'm not playing a spellcaster.
How do I make a fighter interesting in a fight, while not losing any effectiveness? Is it even possible in the current system?
Sounds like you should be using Dirty Tricks. You should also consider using more feats like Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Improved Drag, etc.
You don't have to max out all the feat chains but you can have some fun with them.
I would also try not to do too many crazy things. It's one thing to kick over a table for cover. It's another to grab the dragon's nose hairs (assuming dragons even have nose hairs).
Keep in mind that some maneuvers just don't work with some creatures. The CMD is possibly too high in some cases.
I would also avoid feats like Weapon Focus in these cases unless the weapon has multiple uses. No need to waste a feat that you won't use often.
Also. Since you're not playing a caster. Why not get the caster involved and be the cannonball in the "cannonball special?" I don't think that there are many players that don't enjoy a consumate team effort.
When the feat fling ally still existed you reduced, and readied and action to enlarge...terrible mess, but awesome in a cinematic way, which it seems like you dig.I'm sure that if you dug about you could find some spell/maneuver/feat combos that would satisfy your need to shine, and still be appreciated by your fellow players.
Sounds like you should be using Dirty Tricks. You should also consider using more feats like Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Improved Drag, etc.
Actually, my fighter most known for the above tricks had many of those feats. He was a "trick fighter" and possessed a great number of "maneuver feats." I made it clear to everyone that he was a "trick fighter" that would eventually take levels in shadowdancer in order to become "Batman" long before actually playing him.
Though he did "okay" in combat, he was nevertheless SO disliked, that I still get disapproving looks from everyone if I try to do anything remotely creative with any other character today.
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RD, I SALUTE YOU.
That stuff is all awesome. If I were the DM, I'd probably make things like that replicate spell effects at your fighter level.
Who cares about falling object damage? Cut the chandelier as a 6th level fighter? 6d6 Piercing damage in a 20' burst. Longsword a fleeing enemy? He'd better be ready to take an automatic critical hit. If my players played HALF this creatively combat would be so much easier.
But, then again, I vehemently believe in rewarding my players for cool ideas or outside-the-box thinking, to the point of granting bonus feats, extra damage, extra class abilities, and all sorts of "game-breakers" that make things awesome.
tell your group they suck for their lack of creativity
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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You would be welcome in my gaming group. I try stuff like that all the time, and it often makes for interesting fights.
Try limiting it to rare situations though.
For example, I once had my character jump off of a ledge to grab hold of flying monster, just to pass a rope to an ally the monster was going to throw down a deep pit. Once attached to the monster, my character head butted him just because I knew his hands would be holding on.
Another time my character used a readied action to shield bash a monster just as it used a breath weapon so it would be diverted towards another monster. I failed that one and ended taking some serious damage.
Also, explain to the other players you are simply using the environment and that there shouldn't be any reason why you couldn't at least attempt to try those actions.
Durr... Ó.ò
That actually sounds like you've hit most of the keys to being "interesting" as a mundane fighter. The rope cutting, table flipping, etc. are all mundane efforts at "battlefield control". Creaing cover and rough terrain where none existed previously.
Are they getting mad that you just aren't killing things with the speed and ruthless DPR efficiency that Fighters can demonstrate? Or are they feeling left out that you aren't including them in your hijinks?
Given the last part of your question, is it possible in the current system? I'll take that as your usual prompt poking at that rules and seeing what detonates like a Black Angery Bomb Bird. There are some ways in the current system to be "cool", however generally people don't see it as effective most of the time. Generally the key is to get syngergy off a tag team. In other cases, as you mentioned, the RAW has not been written yet to support "creative" combat maneuvers, however the framework is there and I hope Ultimate Combat will take the pages to expand on them.
Off the top of my head the Net is an underutilized yet very entreating tool of combat. It's size and range limitations likely need some expansion at later levels (a magic net for further throwing and larger/smaller sizes would be helpful). Basically there is a class of items that fall into the "throw it for fun effects" that is often overlooked and quickly drop off in power as levels progress. Various alchemy items (thank you for no caster level requirements of Craft Alchemy).
To follow this line try "Spell in a Glass Can" one use items. A class of custom wounderious items created by Craft Alchemy, requiring ranged touch attacks to activate, and built off the Master Craftsman feat. The fighter has many feats to spend, after all his class feature is feats. He also has little to do during down time. Favored class Skill Ranks and two Level feats isn't much of price to pay to create your own and effective fun outside your selected combat style. This is also fun the rest of the group can get in on.
To help with defining more generics effects you could also use Words of Power as the "spells in glass can". This would also reduce the overall "power" of these items without need much GM arbitration.
All dedicate another post to a better breakdown to "spell in glass can" idea. Make it make more sense.
Durr... Ó.ò
That actually sounds like you've hit most of the keys to being "interesting" as a mundane fighter. The rope cutting, table flipping, etc. are all mundane efforts at "battlefield control". Creaing cover and rough terrain where none existed previously.
Are they getting mad that you just aren't killing things with the speed and ruthless DPR efficiency that Fighters can demonstrate? Or are they feeling left out that you aren't including them in your hijinks?
They are definitely getting mad at the former.
I often hear things like "they would be dead by now if you simply attacked every round."
The unspoken response to that being "you might be dead right now if I didn't stop all of them at once." :P
I bet if you fought that way, and told them all you were a rogue, then it would work fine.
Try that, or just have a talk with them about expectations. Don't ask us why they don't like it. Talk to them more.
Don't ask us why they don't like it.
I'm not asking you why they don't like it. Pretty sure I know the answer to that already.
What I'm asking is how I can continue to be interesting AND effective.
Don't ask us why they don't like it.I'm not asking you why they don't like it. Pretty sure I know the answer to that already.
What I'm asking is how I can continue to be interesting AND effective.
Involve them.
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As the player of the occasional fighter I totally feel your pain. Many a time I have tried to do something awesome with a fighter only to see fellow players groan and the DM struggle to improvise rules. And most DMs I've met, in my opinion, err on the side of making cool stunts too difficult and thus unrewarding, so it discourages their use. As someone who thinks of Mad Martigan bobsledding on a shield when he thinks of "generic D&D fighter," I think the rules should strongly support cinematic action as a viable alternative to chop/chop-5/chop-10. Which gets boring fast.
I don't know how to tell you to make a fighter more interesting because you've clearly got it down. You might ask your GM to consider using the Hero Points rules, which might help to make your antics more effective and encourage you to balance out the tricks with a few more rounds spent just hacking things like a good little fighter. You might also look at the archetypes for fighters. While I haven't had a chance to really dig into them yet, there might be something that makes that kind of play easier. And if not, it should be easy enough to invent a new archetype.
But really, as a GM (which I do far more often than I play), I kinda want you to just point at your fellow players and tell 'em to put a sock in it or else. If any of my players started complaining out loud about another player making the game way more interesting and less rote I'd tell them to knock it off and try to emulate you, not whinge about you.
What I'm asking is how I can continue to be interesting AND effective.
Well all the interesting fighters I've seen come down to building off tag teams. Combat maneuvers are mostly about putting a foe in an unfortunate position that an ally can take advantage of. This kind of tactics become most useful in smaller fights, with fewer foes.
Kill creatively or with quirks. This has less mechanical impact but can still be very fun. I once had a chaotic evil fighter who would not use Slashing weapons if he could help it. He was a barber by Profession and considered blades to dedicated to personal grooming and hygine.
I've also toyed with the idea of weapon generalist and disarming fighter who steals weapons out of foes hands and then uses that for combat. He'd also keep disarm based weapons own for those times he can't take someone else's.
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Being magical with "Spells in a glass can". I'm sure we all know about "spells in can" from the super star competition. I add "glass" to it for items that break on use. Craft Wounderious Item and the Master Craftsman feat are lovely tools of the mundane but feat heavy Fighter to get magical. This idea requires some agreement from the GM because you will be making custom magic items.
Usually one use items are scrolls, wands, and potions. All items that a Master Craftsman can't make. However by various precedence wondrous items can also be created as one use items. Elixirs (potions that violate potion rules) and sometimes food items are often lumped under Wonderful Items. This is the justification.
Alchemy items are fun minor effects of a extraordinary nature but quickly loose relevance at higher levels when their Save DCs don't scale or can't impact enough creatures. Luckily Alchemy is a craft skill, and unlike past OGL editions isn't restricted to casters. This makes it a good candidate for a Fighter to take up as a hobby. It also plays into the Master Craftsman feat which requires one particular Craft skill to base it's items off of.
Thus we create a new sub-category of custom wondrous items that are based on Craft (Alchemy). Again you need a GMs collusion here because Alchemy can describe a range of substances which makes it a bit more fixable then say Craft (jewelry). Keep in mind that Brew Potion also uses Craft(Alchemy) as an alternate skill to Spellcraft. When in doubt think if the item you want to create works as some kind of liquid or gel.
Table 15-29 suggest the base prices for items. A single-use, use activated, item (like a potion) consts Spell Level x Caster Level x 50 gp. This is the basic "spell in a can". What isn't describe is the method of activation. Potions and Elixirs must be drunk, oils rubbed or applied. These are generally a Standard action. Most basic Alchemy items are thrown, triggering on impact, which is often an attack action (meaning it can be done as part of a full attack). This gives you and the GM to options to pick form, Standard Action (throw one a turn) or Attack (throw as many as you have attacks). For balance I'd say they should be Standard Actions unless they based on Swift or Immediate action spells, in which case I'd have them use a Swift Action. Needless to say they should follow the rules for throwing objects, a ranged touch attack against the target creature or square.
What are their effects? Well seeing as you can stick any spell into them it would be wise to come up with some ground rules. First these should not buff effects that aid allies, no hand grenade of Cure Moderate Wounds. Second they should have an area effect and/or a ranger greater then touch, goo of shocking grasp would be out in my book. This should give you a number of interesting spells (effects) to work with that are mostly area damage spells or battlefield control spells. Things that a Fighter doesn't normally do but have proven highly effective in Caster hands.
Before any caster cries foul, keep in mind this takes Gold and Time, creates a tangle object that can be broke or stole, and is something they can do themselves as well if they chose to get the feat. Also this can also free up their own spell slots for other things that the Fighter isn't making a stockpile of. Enjoy.
I'll look forward to the first time someone rants about how unfair it is for a Fighter to make a "spell in glass can" cloud kill. :P
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Over the last year or so, I've come to learn that whenever I play a fighter (or physical combatant) my fellow roleplayers HATE IT.
Why? Because I fight like a brawler in a movie.
In other words:
- I cut the chandelier line to crush enemies beneath it
- I flip a bar table end over end like a coin to cause it to crash into a group of enemies
- I use my rope and grappling hook to hook the peryton's antlers and rip it out of the air with brute strength
- I throw my longsword at a fleeing enemy
- I use my rope and grappling hook to create a tripwire to trip multiple enemies
- I reach up, grab the dragon's nose hairs, swing down and hook my feet under it's jaws so it can't open his mouth to breathe fire for all the intense pain I'm giving him (ever rip out a nose hair? it's smarts!)
- Stick a 10-foot pole in a purple worm's mouth in hopes of not being swallowed whole for one more round
- Ready an action to dive out of the way of a ranged attack so it continues on its trajectory to target an enemy standing behind me
...and so on and so on. I do whatever seems like fun and at all likely to work. Much of the time, the GM wings various checks and combat maneuvers and lets me "give it a shot."
The problem? The other players.
These tricks, although awesome, often don't work out. Even when they do, simply standing there trading blows like an idiot with full attacks is often the better mechanical option. As my fellow players might put it: "What good does tripping 5 enemies all at once when they are still alive and standing in the next round?"
As such, my fellow players HATE IT when I'm not playing a spellcaster.
How do I make a fighter interesting in a fight, while not losing any effectiveness? Is it even possible in the current system?
Damn. If you were local, I'd say drop your group and come over to mine. You're actually (role)playing your PC interestingly in combat!
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.... So you are using your fighter properly? The best advice I could give is to just deal with it, full attack actions aren't as useful as crippling your enemies for a round or two using Dirty Tricks, and as a fighter, if you are using your weapon, you could be doing it for a heck of a lot longer than a round or two.
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tell your group they suck for their lack of creativity
^
This.RD, I grew chest hair just by reading your initial post.
Also, like others said, try making it an occasionnal move so you can keep your DPR and avoid tricky situations that would only frustrate your fellow players, invest in dirty trick feats, talk to your GM so that there is always a rule for some specific actions - or know them yourself ! (plus, come on, it's not like there aren't rule about perception/trip/falling objects you can't use and twist on the fly just for the coolness factor...), etc.
But really, if your DM is the kind to become mad just because there is a little situation easy to deal with mechanically by asking himself if its kool and awezome and should have a high chance of success... if furthermore he never intercedes in your favor by telling the other players to look at what you did and awe on the result, I don't see how they wouldn't keep their ranting.
But really, as a GM (which I do far more often than I play), I kinda want you to just point at your fellow players and tell 'em to put a sock in it or else. If any of my players started complaining out loud about another player making the game way more interesting and less rote I'd tell them to knock it off and try to emulate you, not whinge about you.
^
This too.This for everyone of you !
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I'd suggest trying out a Barbarian instead of a Fighter. They're already more mobile (with their Fast Movement), and there are various archetypes and rage powers which cater to a much more 'brawling' and 'cinematic' combat style than a typical Fighter type. They also get better Class Skills and more Skill Points. Plus, with the Strength boost from raging you'll be killing things a lot quicker, especially at low levels, so the group is less likely to mind what you're doing. ;)
The following rage powers seem particulary apt...
Knockback
No Escape
Raging Leaper
Strength Surge
Boasting Taunt
Brawler (plus Greater version)
Ground Breaker
Hurling (plus Lesser and Greater versions)
Hurling charge
Knockdown
... as do the Breaker, Brutal Pugilist, Drunken Brute, and Hurler archetypes.
I'm not seeing a problem with your style Ravingdork. Based off what you have posted I have to agree that the rest of the party is more of a "kill it now and move on to the next thing that needs killing."
I've been in you GMs shoes with people that think outside of the box and sometimes it is hit or miss. Your antics seem to be on the hit side more then the miss side. Still the best advice has already been given talk with the rest of the group and tell them "Look I don't like "I full attack" let them know that it is fun for you to be Mad Martigan, Errol Flynn, etc.
Honestly, while I like playing Barbarians and Fighters when I get a chance they have problems truly shining in a game where a guy can summon a Demon T-Rex to eat the villians. The style you choose to play it is the best way to make the martial classes really shine next to that.
If anything this proves that more dungeons should be built with chandeliers! Honestly the only thing that bugged me was the whole throwing our longsword at a fleeing enemy thing, the rest is just good fun unless you're a monster.
I'd suggest trying out a Barbarian instead of a Fighter. They're already more mobile (with their Fast Movement), and there are various archetypes and rage powers which cater to a much more 'brawling' and 'cinematic' combat style than a typical Fighter type. They also get better Class Skills and more Skill Points. Plus, with the Strength boost from raging you'll be killing things a lot quicker, especially at low levels, so the group is less likely to mind what you're doing. ;)
The following rage powers seem particulary apt...
Knockback
No Escape
Raging Leaper
Strength Surge
Boasting Taunt
Brawler (plus Greater version)
Ground Breaker
Hurling (plus Lesser and Greater versions)
Hurling charge
Knockdown... as do the Breaker, Brutal Pugilist, Drunken Brute, and Hurler archetypes.
What he said. Try a barbarian. People kinda expect this kind of stuff from the guy who draws power from being bats**t mad. One avenue that you might want to check is Intimidate. Boast, taunt and trashtalk your enemies into the ground and demoralize can be a very nice debuff. Again, with Boasting Taunt and Come and Get Me, barbarians rock at this. Couple it with a good will and you can go "the monster roars at me? I roar back at him and make him scared."
awesome
O_o other players don't consider useful trip 5 enemies in a row?
Said this, play it SMARTER. Tripping? get attacks from that too, using greater trip.
Support you ideas mechanically and ask your GM to support more your gamestyle if is not "breaking". I wish to point out that the GMG suggests to encourage such gamestyle.
BTW, awesome. I just know only 1 other gamer playing the fighter like this - he bringed his in 3.5 from level 1 to 40.
@barbarian: I love barbarians - cool, powerful- but WHY, WHY, WHY couldn't a fighter act like the OP said?
Mobility fighter + TWF allows you a lot of awesome, BTW, if you want cinematic maneuvers.
Over the last year or so, I've come to learn that whenever I play a fighter (or physical combatant) my fellow roleplayers HATE IT.
Why? Because I fight like a brawler in a movie.
In other words:
- I cut the chandelier line to crush enemies beneath it
- I flip a bar table end over end like a coin to cause it to crash into a group of enemies
- I use my rope and grappling hook to hook the peryton's antlers and rip it out of the air with brute strength
- I throw my longsword at a fleeing enemy
- I use my rope and grappling hook to create a tripwire to trip multiple enemies
- I reach up, grab the dragon's nose hairs, swing down and hook my feet under it's jaws so it can't open his mouth to breathe fire for all the intense pain I'm giving him (ever rip out a nose hair? it's smarts!)
- Stick a 10-foot pole in a purple worm's mouth in hopes of not being swallowed whole for one more round
- Ready an action to dive out of the way of a ranged attack so it continues on its trajectory to target an enemy standing behind me
...and so on and so on. I do whatever seems like fun and at all likely to work. Much of the time, the GM wings various checks and combat maneuvers and lets me "give it a shot."
The problem? The other players.
These tricks, although awesome, often don't work out. Even when they do, simply standing there trading blows like an idiot with full attacks is often the better mechanical option. As my fellow players might put it: "What good does tripping 5 enemies all at once when they are still alive and standing in the next round?"
As such, my fellow players HATE IT when I'm not playing a spellcaster.
How do I make a fighter interesting in a fight, while not losing any effectiveness? Is it even possible in the current system?
It seems you enjoy cinematic games, while the party wants you to run a more realistic fighter to make sure they survive. If you give up a chance to kill a bad guy, and that baddie ends up killing a party member they kind of have a point. I do think your idea works in certain types of campaigns though, but it should be done in a less serious campaign. If the GM is willing to hold back in order to let you(the party) try new things I think it would be interesting.
Mechanically the only way I it being worth doing is to do normally effective actions, but describe them differently. As an example as strike the killing blow say you carved your initials in his face(Zorro sytle).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lots of material here....
First off let me applaud RD's attempts to make the game more fun and interesting. As a GM I would probably take a more jaundiced view of some of his attempts than others, especially things like thinking a dragon wouldn't open it's mouth in deadly combat due to the possible discomfort of ripping out a few nose hairs. First, I don't think dragons have nose hairs, and even if they did, I rip out nose hairs all the time because that's a better way to trim them than trying to cut them with scissors. It's no big deal.
I personally would be thrilled to have you try those sorts of things in my games, but like I said, I think they would be even less effective since our group doesn't play a Jackie Chan style of combat and attempting to trip five NPCs with a grappling hook and rope is going to be a lot more difficult than you make it out to be, and the NPCs are going to be a lot smarter about realizing what you are attempting to do, but again, kudos for making the attempt.
It may be that your group feels you are trying to steal the spotlight while playing a role that typically is out of the spotlight. If your antics are opening your party to potential TPKs then they might have a legitimate gripe, but if you are getting through your encounters without having characters dropping like flies, then I think the real issue is not likely to be that you aren't killing things fast enough.
If I was a fellow player and you were trying these things, I would do my best to play off of them and attempt some joint actions that might be even more spectacular, but to be honest I would probably be making suggestions that I thought were less cinematic and were more tactically useful.
I mean in all honesty your list sounds real fun and movie combat-ish, but in reality virtually all of your examples would be highly unlikely to be successful in a real fight.
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In Pathfinder, dragons are reptiles without hair. -- You must be playing 2nd Edition D&D!I reach up, grab the dragon's nose hairs, swing down and hook my feet under it's jaws so it can't open his mouth to breathe fire for all the intense pain I'm giving him (ever rip out a nose hair? it's smarts!)
Eastern dragons sometimes have depictions with what looks to be hair and whiskers... so not just 2nd edition. ;-)
RD, I applaud with what some of the actions, particularly the tripping of a mass of enemies, that's actually both visually great and helpful since they have to spend a move action to get back up, it'll buy time for the rest of the group if they wish to capitalize on this, but apparently they don't seem to appreciate it.
- I cut the chandelier line to crush enemies beneath it
- I flip a bar table end over end like a coin to cause it to crash into a group of enemies
- I use my rope and grappling hook to hook the peryton's antlers and rip it out of the air with brute strength
- I throw my longsword at a fleeing enemy
- I use my rope and grappling hook to create a tripwire to trip multiple enemies
- I reach up, grab the dragon's nose hairs, swing down and hook my feet under it's jaws so it can't open his mouth to breathe fire for all the intense pain I'm giving him (ever rip out a nose hair? it's smarts!)
- Stick a 10-foot pole in a purple worm's mouth in hopes of not being swallowed whole for one more round
- Ready an action to dive out of the way of a ranged attack so it continues on its trajectory to target an enemy standing behind me
I believe, after reading your post, that it is possible. We need rules for that kind of stuff, and I might try my hand at it. But, as of now, if I were your GM... here's what I'd do.
That's if you sat down at my table tomorrow and started doing all that.
Idea I had for a Bar Room Brawler: Improvised weapon specialist.
Concept: Alchoholic that sold his weapon(s) to buy booze. In a fight uses what ever is around him. Chairs, broken bottles, tree branch, rock. Always have gauntleted fist, or Spiked gauntlet so you still threaten even when unarmed. Damage is largely based off STR, Power attack, and other feats more then the actual weapon. Which can be a suprising amount, at lvl one with a two-handed weapon (chair) the damage bonus is +9 without any dice added. (+4 STR, +2 Power attack, +50% for two-hander)
Attributes: High STR, 20 to start if possible.
Starting Feats: Catch Off-Gaurd, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Improvised Weapon, Cleave. (I like two-handed weapons, but if your more for two weapons then get Two Weapon fighting.)
ASAP Feats: Improvised Weapon Mastery, Weapon Specialization: Improvised Weapon
Other Considerations: If you have a melee heavy group improved drag or improved bull rush could be a good option to allow them to get free attacks of op. No one complains about getting attacks op, so long as it is on the enemy. ;)
How do you not fall behind the enhancement curve at later levels? What's more, is Weapon Focus (improvised weapon) even a valid feat choice?
This is really cool and flavorful and should be helped at every turn.
Unfortunately this is an uphill battle. 3e by it's nature does not smile kindly on doing stunts once you have more then one attack due to how fast and high health scales and the need for iterative attacks. Rock'em Sock'em Robots is built into the system.
Regards the OP subject-title: the best way to make a fighter interesting is to multiclass.
OMG! This is so 3.0...
;)
Sounds like you had the same kind of DM I started with. If you want my advice, I'd put a bit more thought into your use of these actions They're great for surprise rounds or breaks in the action, not so much for those times where you have bite the bullet and deal damage, the good ProfessorCirno makes an excellent point.
3e by it's nature does not smile kindly on doing stunts once you have more then one attack due to how fast and high health scales and the need for iterative attacks. Rock'em Sock'em Robots is built into the system.
I'd also try to work within the rules for them rather than grind combat to a halt (this is probably where the problem lies). That said, I'll give you my two cents after
This kind of fighter is perfectly viable, provided you're built effectively. I'd consider Power Attack, Cleave and Weapon Specialisation absolute staples for doing effective damage. As your group seem to be saying, things that are dead stay dead.
That said, if the terrain allows it, go nuts. I think one fundamental problem you're running into though is working against rather than with the rules.
I played a rogue in an otherwise all-caster party and had terrible trouble getting sneak attack damage. When we switched to Pathfinder, my rogue became a monk. I'm still a scruffy rogue, my "cheap shots" have simply moved from sneak attack damage to stunning fist and trip attacks. The description of you and your actions is incredibly flexible.
On this note, a character with the above feats and a focus on combat manuevers can easily pull his weight in the party and, along with a good working relationship with the GM, do everything in the original post.
- I cut the chandelier line to crush enemies beneath it
- I flip a bar table end over end like a coin to cause it to crash into a group of enemies
- I use my rope and grappling hook to hook the peryton's antlers and rip it out of the air with brute strength
- I throw my longsword at a fleeing enemy
- I use my rope and grappling hook to create a tripwire to trip multiple enemies
- I reach up, grab the dragon's nose hairs, swing down and hook my feet under it's jaws so it can't open his mouth to breathe fire for all the intense pain I'm giving him (ever rip out a nose hair? it's smarts!)
- Stick a 10-foot pole in a purple worm's mouth in hopes of not being swallowed whole for one more round
- Ready an action to dive out of the way of a ranged attack so it continues on its trajectory to target an enemy standing behind me
If your GM is including chandeliers/braziers and the like in his environments, he should be deciding in advance what these do. A chandelier would be especially deadly, but would possibly need some degree of preparation (an ambush baiting opponents directly underneath, or otherwise stealthily dropping it), a brazier could act as difficult terrain or caltrops as hot coals are spread across the battlefield and deal damage as alchemists fire.
Flipping a bar table is easy. A trip or bullrush attempt against every foe (possible with a full attack for trip, or by bullrushing opponents into each other with bullrush) similates the effects
The grappling hook is understandable. They're notoriously hard to use, let alone hitting a moving target. Might I suggest reading a grapple attack vs. approach and trying to ground your opponent this way? Your fellow melee'rs will love you, and you can tie him up with your grappling hook with two successes, probably clipping his wings.
Throwing a longsword has rules already, it's just horribly... uncool, and ineffective. Your opponents back is turned, you should chase him down and run him through.
Assuming a 5' by 5' doorway, a tripwire is pretty plausible. This, however, would just be a readied trip attack or tripping with an AoO (I'm not 100% sure you can do this, however.) Perhaps combat reflexes would cover the difference here? That said, take some mundane traps or the new ranger feat if you have the time to set up an ambush.
Dragons dont have nose hairs. Pull on it's eyelashes instead. :P That said, grapple or dirty trick.
This last one I'm a little iffy on. It'd depend on the nature of the attack (I personally wouldnt allow you to completely negate an attack without cover without a feat, though I'm sure one such feat could be dredged up from 3.5 books.). In this scenario, I'd just take cover wherever you can, delay or ready a second move action, and motion your allies to do the same. Come next round you and you can lead your melee buddies in the heroic charge.
Basically, playing cinematically is perfectly possible within the rules, you (or perhaps more likely, your group) just need to learn how to apply them.) Don't give up. Also apologies for being unnecessarily long-winded, I have this terrible habit of coming here to procrastinate. I swear to god an hour ago all of my tabs were journals...
EDIT: I'd also link you here if you want to follow up on this. Starting this thread did wonders for my game.
It seems to me Ravingdork that you should really try playing Exalted, in that game most of the things you wrote could very well be part of the attack (or rather the description of your attack) and you would get a benefit from doing an attack like that instead of just a regular attack.
Now to go back to PF, well if you don't end up with killed teamates because you are doing those things i say roll with it, make sure your character can actually do (have the right feats etc.) those things. Who cares if you don't contribute at 100% percent efficiency at the combat (as long as doesn't anyone die from that), you make the game more fun.
These tricks, although awesome, often don't work out. Even when they do, simply standing there trading blows like an idiot with full attacks is often the better mechanical option. As my fellow players might put it: "What good does tripping 5 enemies all at once when they are still alive and standing in the next round?"
As such, my fellow players HATE IT when I'm not playing a spellcaster.
How do I make a fighter interesting in a fight, while not losing any effectiveness? Is it even possible in the current system?
RD, you need to be just a little more tactical in combat. Tripping up a load of foes? Brilliant if you can then take a step to put yourself in the midst of them and use your Combat Reflexes to get AoOs on them all as they try and stand. Feats like Combat Patrol are your friend here. All of a sudden you can have the cool actions and get in lots of attacks.
Add a level or three of rogue to get the sneak attack goodness, and your actions that place them at a disadvantage can also allow sneak attacks!
RD, move to TN. You sound like my kinda player. You could teach my players a thing or two about actually PLAYING. (Truth be told, you could probably teach me a thing or two about DMing.)
Now to go back to PF, well if you don't end up with killed teamates because you are doing those things i say roll with it, make sure your character can actually do (have the right feats etc.) those things. Who cares if you don't contribute at 100% percent efficiency at the combat (as long as doesn't anyone die from that), you make the game more fun.
Why would I need those feats? These are things anyone can conceivably do. Disarm, trip, and other combat maneuvers are open to anyone and everyone, even without feats--the feats just make you better at them is all.
Oh, and my fighter at the time was very focused on the disarm/trip/spring attack feat chain (going for whirlwind attack, and eventually, shadowdancer).
Now to go back to PF, well if you don't end up with killed teamates because you are doing those things i say roll with it, make sure your character can actually do (have the right feats etc.) those things. Who cares if you don't contribute at 100% percent efficiency at the combat (as long as doesn't anyone die from that), you make the game more fun.Why would I need those feats? These are things anyone can conceivably do. Disarm, trip, and other combat maneuvers are open to anyone and everyone, even without feats--the feats just make you better at them is all.
Oh, and my fighter at the time was very focused on the disarm/trip/spring attack feat chain (going for whirlwind attack, and eventually, shadowdancer).
So that you don't get killed by the AoO you are provoking when you are using a disarm attempt without the feat.
So that you don't get killed by the AoO you are provoking when you are using a disarm attempt without the feat.Now to go back to PF, well if you don't end up with killed teamates because you are doing those things i say roll with it, make sure your character can actually do (have the right feats etc.) those things. Who cares if you don't contribute at 100% percent efficiency at the combat (as long as doesn't anyone die from that), you make the game more fun.Why would I need those feats? These are things anyone can conceivably do. Disarm, trip, and other combat maneuvers are open to anyone and everyone, even without feats--the feats just make you better at them is all.
Oh, and my fighter at the time was very focused on the disarm/trip/spring attack feat chain (going for whirlwind attack, and eventually, shadowdancer).
Depends from who are you disarming. And if is flat-footed or not.
Reach (due to polearms or feats like lunge) comes in play too.
In an humanoid campaign, Lunge is almost an "improved whatever maneuver" feat.
In an humanoid campaign, Lunge is almost an "improved whatever maneuver" feat.
Hey now, I like this.
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Over the last year or so, I've come to learn that whenever I play a fighter...
At the risk of sounding grognard-y this style of play seems better suited to an older version of the game where things could just happen without a rule for every circumstance. In a game where characters are defined by their crunchiness, doing something unsupported by crunch might be seen as throwing a wrench into the carefully calibrated works or a slowing down of the mechanical progression through an encounter.
There might just be no place for it in some styles of gaming.
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At the risk of sounding grognard-y this style of play seems better suited to an older version of the game where things could just happen without a rule for every circumstance. In a game where characters are defined by their crunchiness, doing something unsupported by crunch might be seen as throwing a wrench into the carefully calibrated works or a slowing down of the mechanical progression through an encounter.
There might just be no place for it in some styles of gaming.
I'd suggest that this stuff is supported by crunch. The Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything, and Improved Dirty Trick Feats would even make you pretty darn good at this sort of stuff.
Now, I can imagine a DM getting flustered if some player started using, for example, improvised weapons or dirty tricks if said DM hasn't read up on such rules. On the other hand if the DM knows that the PC has Feats which corrispond to those rules, it's kind of his job to read up on them. Even if the PC hasn't got such Feats, but has shown a tendency to use those things, then again, isn't it the DM's job to bother to read up on those rules between game sessions?
IMHO you can be extremely brawl-worthy and cinematic using the Pathfinder rules... you may not be optimised doing it, but you're likely to have a much more fun time... barring a gaming group which doesn't actually care about anything but optimised monster-slaughtering XP-generation, naturally... ;)
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I'd suggest that this stuff is supported by crunch. The Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything, and Improved Dirty Trick Feats would even make you pretty darn good at this sort of stuff.
Now, I can imagine a DM getting flustered if some player started using, for example, improvised weapons or dirty tricks if said DM hasn't read up on such rules. On the other hand if the DM knows that the PC has Feats which corrispond to those rules, it's kind of his job to read up on them. Even if the PC hasn't got such Feats, but has shown a tendency to use those things, then again, isn't it the DM's job to bother to read up on those rules between game sessions?
IMHO you can be extremely brawl-worthy and cinematic using the Pathfinder rules... you may not be optimised doing it, but you're likely to have a much more fun time... barring a gaming group which doesn't actually care about anything but optimised monster-slaughtering XP-generation, naturally... ;)
I'd agree that there is enough crunch now to cover just about everything, but I think there might be cases, even when all rules are known, that the Game Master might have to use the rules as guidelines and/or make his own rulings for this or that. Or maybe even cases in which the rules are known but it is better for the story not to adhere to them religiously. Some people are more comfortable with that than others.
For me there will always be tension between the collaborative story-telling aspect of the game, where everyone creates but the DM/GM has ultimate say, and the mechanical aspect of the game, wherein players desire a completely level playing field and the GM is more of a manager of rules that everyone must follow. In a game weighted heavily toward the latter, people might get tired of flipping through rule books trying to figure out exactly what check or roll to make when someone wants to cut down a chandelier on some people or prop open a monster's mouth with a pole.