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We started by rolling the dices in 3.5, but there were always huge differences in stats between the players, thus leading to rolling again and again until we got something "correct"... thus by snowballing, everyone had laughably huge stats.
In pathfinder we first used the 15-point buy, but since everyone in our group tends to optimize their character and the DM to be pretty harsh on encounters, we always found ourselves with at least two "you're a cheesing bastard, be ashamed of yourself" 7 stats.
Now we use the 20-point buy tier, with two rules :
- No more than one stat at 7 or less. Possible exception if the roleplay REALLY follows and that you're ready to accept the consequences. Our half-ogre barbarian 5 Int/5 Wis/13 Cha is a great roleplaying asset to the party, and quite terrific in fight.
- No more than two stats equal or superior to 16, even after application of racial bonuses.
Until now we have no problem with this, we can build heroic-feeling characters with real weaknesses and no epic-stats effect.
Back in 2nd ed. we rolled and continued it into 3rd ed, but with 3rd ed mechanics we started to find the lucky rollers having a strong advantage over the unlucky. We have two guys that struggle to roll up a playable set of stats, and would often have two stats under 10 and their highest stat as 14. So for 3.5 we switched to point buy and continued it into PF until recently.
We found with point buy we were getting cookie cutter stat blocks for the classes and chronic stat dumping. So we switched back to rolling with a slight twist. To help out the unlucky rollers we made it that you get one score of 16 and roll the remaining 5 (4d6 dropping the lowest). Everyone's happy, we've still got scores under 10 and no one has superman stats.
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Try this:
Card-based Ability Score Generation
You need six cards, numbered from 4 to 9, of one suit (for our example, Spades), and the same six number cards from a second suit (Hearts).
Method 1 - All Random
Shuffle all the Spades and lay them face down in a row of six. Each of these corresponds to an ability score in order: Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma.
Shuffle all the Hearts and lay them face down on the six, one on each. Flip each pair face up and add the totals for each. These are your ability scores.
This method will produce arrays that are completely random but will tend to be more 'fair' than pure rolling.
Method 2 - Partial Random Hidden
Shuffle all the Spades and lay them face down in a row of six per method 1.
Place the Hearts face up where you choose, then flip the Spades face up and add the totals in order. These are your ability scores.
This method grants some control over your final result, as you can use the Hearts to prioritise your ability scores. Random chance may still throw a spanner in the works and give you something unexpected.
Method 3 - Partial Random Visible
Shuffle all the spades and lay them face up in a row of six.
Place the Hearts face up where you choose, per method 2.
This method grants the most control, as you can see where the first six of cards have fallen and plan around them when placing the second six.
I like this method best!
I do something similar to this, if a bit more heroic.
We use 4d6 drop lowest, but I let the player roll up three separate arrays, and then assign the values in one array to whichever stat they prefer. To be sure, we've had some "above normal" rolls create some "above heroic" characters. However, I've never had a problem with balance between encounters and their ability level. I'm also lucky in that I have a great group where nobody minds that some players got lucky and have some really nice looking stats.
I am currently running a game along the rough lines of the Kingmaker campaign. The characters used a 25 point buy, and its led to some truly amazing combats and dungeon delves etc. Not to mention that I could throw harder stuff at them and know that they would be okish (I killed 3 characters in 2 sessions at one stage, then realised that the monster was about 5 levels about them at the time, and so allowed them to bring back those characters for a nominal cost.
The other method I have heard of but not used is this.
All stats start at 8.
You then roll 2d6 6 times and add the associated score to the stats of your choice. It seems an interesting way to do it.
I go all purchase all the time. (imagine it being said with a deep, booming voice).
I don't like rolling methods. They're either completely luck-based and can screw up people while giving others too much power, or they're those pretend luck methods where you roll lots of stats with lots of dice and pick the best set, which give people the illusion of randomness while actually giving them a very small chance of bad stats and a high chance of really good stats.
I have no problem with my players having good stats, so I let them play around with 25 points for their stats. Epic purchase. Characters can be quite heroic (in terms of power). Players are happy.
I can still challenge them, so it's no big deal.
I'm currently running with 42 point buy. :P
I do something similar to this, if a bit more heroic.
All 18's all the time. ;)
My group decided to go (for non-published campaings) with a 25 point buy but no negative modifier before racial modifiers.
My personal opinion on general is anything but rolling, too much luck involved and too much difference between players. So that's why i prefer anything else but rolling, i don't really care if it's an array or if it's point buy or if it's an array whose numbers are what one player rolled, as long as all of the players are using the same numbers i am ok.
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I use the roll 4d6 drop the lowest method. I also allow a reroll of a single ability score, but the player has to keep the second result even if the result is lower then the former one.
This way, i avoid minmaxing, which i hate, and stat dumping to an extent.
I never allow point buy. For me, it is the wrong way to generate statistics.
The use of point buy means that the characters always are balanced internally. Its the idea that the party don't have a fighter who has rolled amazingly well and is able to kill and hit everything without even trying, whilst the party mage is barely able to cast 4th level spells.
If anything, point buy is the better system in my opinion
I'm going to be GMing my first Pathfinder campaign and I wanted to know what is the best method of ability score generation that allows players to feel heroic but won't skew my organization of encounters. I'm not sure which tier of point-buy would be best or if I should just have my players roll or give them preset variables.
Is the campaign homebrew or an AP? If homebrew, you'll get a feel for what works with them no matter what their stats.
My personal favorite is 4d6 (drop lowest), arranged as the player likes. This method can generate a huge range of values. Some PCs will be much better than others at first level.
Since TOZ first showed me the statgrid I have wanted to try that. Should generate some awesome characters with parity in scores.
This is why they offer so many different options for stat generation in the Core Rulebook, because every group of tabletoppers is different, and what works for one might not work at all for another. This thread also reminds me of the great thing about opinions... Everybody's got one, and usually no two are the same. :)
I like Point buy the best. My players hate it and refuse to use it. They like rolling but only if they roll good stats. Quite often we have the equivalent of 38 Point buy and it really screws up the CR of encounters they can face. So I use Max hit points on everything the encounter and/or apply the Advanced template with out adding to the CR.
It would be nice to see a normally stated character.
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I like Point buy the best. My players hate it and refuse to use it. They like rolling but only if they roll good stats. Quite often we have the equivalent of 38 Point buy and it really screws up the CR of encounters they can face. So I use Max hit points on everything the encounter and/or apply the Advanced template with out adding to the CR.
It would be nice to see a normally stated character.
Define a normally stated character...
I still have my players roll. I have them roll 4d6 six times, twice, and then pick the array of 6 they prefer. They then assign the scores in any stat they wish.
I find that rolling still produces a better balance when mixing classes that are dependent on multiple attributes vs single attributes and when mixing players who tend to optimize with ones who don't.
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I usually do a 25 pt buy.
I have run games where we rolled 3d6, took them in order and played whatever character worked for that. Good times. "Top of the world, Ma!"
If you like rolling but players don't want to risk a gimped main stat I sometimes do 4d6 drop lowest and for the main stat 15 plus 1d4.
Oh man! I totally forgot about this until thinking about this thread. I had a GM once that did a very strange hybrid of the point buy and the dice roll. Here's how it worked. You would use the 25 point buy method, but what you would be buying with your points was the D? of dice, and then you would roll the dice and add that to the base of ten.
For example, say I started with all tens and one eight(dumped) so I actually started with 27 points. Then I could spend 17 points for my major stat, once I'd spent the points I'd roll 3d6, but subtract one from the highest roll, and THAT was the number you added to ten. He would let us reroll once per stat and allow the larger of the two rolls.
It was way wacky, like If I just spent four points on one stat, I'd roll a d4, but if I spent five points I'd roll a d4+1 for a minimum two. I don't remember how the dice were actually attributed to the points when they were odd numbers but we had a whole system. We dropped that after a while, but it sure was kind of fun buying and then rolling too.
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Point-buy all the way, baby. I've never had to roll so far and there's no telling to what lengths of complaining, begging, kicking and biting I'd go to avoid it. You might as well pick an arbitrary player on the table and replace his d20 with a d16, then do the same thing with a d24 for another player. Madness, I say!
Personally, I think 20 pt buy is probably the most balanced one, because it enables reasonably effective builds even for Monks etc without having to resort to crippling dump stats.
I play in a 15 pt buy campaign now (for the second time) and it does work, balance-wise. The Paizo adventures are supposedly tuned for that difficulty level. However, the corners you have to cut when building your characters really hurt.
We use an 85 point buy system, each point is equal to the number placed against the ability scores. This allows a character to have five stats of 14 and one of 15 as a base then adjust for racial modifiers.
Of course you can also dump stats if desired but this method creates not overly powered pcs. It's also fun altering the bestiary creatures with this method to, as long as the total ability scores don't exceed 85 before racial mods!
I'm currently running with 42 point buy. :P
I rolled stats for kingmaker and got a 62 point buy. Or thats what Herolab shows it to be if you select PB.
4d6 drop low 6 times. Roll 3 sets and choose the one you like, assigning as you like. I find it ends with players having between 22-35 point buy, though the distrobution is "worse" than if they had 20, and thier primary stats are usually lower.
I find that complaints about stat discrepancy between 1 player and annother are usually irrelevant. Usually you wont see much difference between the effectiveness of the high and low point characters.
I like Point buy the best. My players hate it and refuse to use it. They like rolling but only if they roll good stats.
Refuse to use it?
They could do that in my game. Of course, they wouldn't have any ability scores then, and thus no characters.
Players can make requests, but if they "refuse" to use what I decide on in the end, they are let go.
I'm not a niggard when it comes to character creation, but I draw the line at 25 point purchase. If you can't play unless you have even better stats then that, then good luck with that.
4d6 drop low 6 times. Roll 3 sets and choose the one you like, assigning as you like. I find it ends with players having between 22-35 point buy, though the distrobution is "worse" than if they had 20, and thier primary stats are usually lower.
I find that complaints about stat discrepancy between 1 player and annother are usually irrelevant. Usually you wont see much difference between the effectiveness of the high and low point characters.
Is there an echo in here? here? here?
:D :P
4d6 drop low 6 times. Roll 3 sets and choose the one you like, assigning as you like. I find it ends with players having between 22-35 point buy, though the distrobution is "worse" than if they had 20, and thier primary stats are usually lower.
I find that complaints about stat discrepancy between 1 player and annother are usually irrelevant. Usually you wont see much difference between the effectiveness of the high and low point characters.
Is there an echo in here? here? here?
:D :P
I love how you also say no 2 will be the same :)
I also kinda remember James Jacobs saying he used the same method in one of the many identical threads.
4d6 drop low 6 times. Roll 3 sets and choose the one you like, assigning as you like. I find it ends with players having between 22-35 point buy, though the distrobution is "worse" than if they had 20, and thier primary stats are usually lower.
I find that complaints about stat discrepancy between 1 player and annother are usually irrelevant. Usually you wont see much difference between the effectiveness of the high and low point characters.
Is there an echo in here? here? here?
:D :P
I love how you also say no 2 will be the same :)
I also kinda remember James Jacobs saying he used the same method in one of the many identical threads.
Well if James uses it, you use it, and I use it, that should be definitive proof that all other methods are pointless. :)
I use the old 3.5e Organic Method:
Roll 4d6 drop lowest for each stat in order.
Reroll one if you wish.
Swap one stat with any other one stat if you wish.
My additions for balanced play:
All characters must have at least one 16 stat and no character can be more than 4 modifier points lower than the top set of rolls after all stat modifiers are totaled. This allows you to reroll the character if you wish.
I find point buy too cookie cutter, if you know what I mean. I like seeing two fighters with very different stats.
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I use the old 3.5e Organic Method:
Roll 4d6 drop lowest for each stat in order.
Reroll one if you wish.
Swap one stat with any other one stat if you wish.
But what about the players that want a specific character ?
Not critical at all, just curious, you define the roles and character concepts after rolling the dices or you just try to make them work with what you roll ?
I have my players roll 4d6 drop lowest, after rolling they can decide to keep that or use 20 point buy with no score under 10 before racial adjustments.
Generally it allows everyone to be able to make the character he wants, but the dice rolls ensure some variety in characters, with relatively small power differences
A few years ago my group moved to point buy exclusively and in pathfinder we do 20pt buy. But I honestly am sick of it. Stats are so g!% d+@ned similar, I hate that and I miss the days of dice. I am leaning towards 2d6+6 for my next campaign.
I use the old 3.5e Organic Method:
Roll 4d6 drop lowest for each stat in order.
Reroll one if you wish.
Swap one stat with any other one stat if you wish.
But what about the players that want a specific character ?
Not critical at all, just curious, you define the roles and character concepts after rolling the dices or you just try to make them work with what you roll ?
In practice it is rare to get an unworkable character using the system we do. The stat swap keeps most if not all concepts workable. Allowing you to place your highest stat into Int for example if playing a wizard. Yeah, most people select a concept after rolling to capitalize on interesting stat placement. But the guy who always plays a rogue is never unhappy either. The really fun part is watching players tie their stats and concept together with a personality and background.
Here's what my group does. It's basically the True20 system of allocating a stat bonus pool. It's worked out pretty well for us as an alternative to a buy system.
6 points to spend as a pool before your racials.
Every 1 point of bonus equates to 2 attribute points. So a +2 racial to a stat is really a +1 bonus.
You can take a penalty to one stat for a bonus to another stat on a 1 to 1 basis.
When applying a bonus or a penalty, your attribute goes to the lowest value associated with that bonus or penalty. For example, +2 bonus is a attribute score of 14, +3 is a 16, 0 is a 10, -1 is an 8, -2 is a 6.
If you need a odd numbered stat to qualify for a feat, we allow for it but you pay it off at your next attribute stat increase.
The every four level stat increase is a +1 BONUS not a +1 to the attribute UNLESS you're paying off in which case you just get a +1 attribute stat bump as normal.
All of the groups I play in or run go for the 4d6, drop lowest, place as you will, and re-roll the set if the combined mods from all the stats isn't positive. My own personal spin for myself (that I encourage, but don't require for my players) is to let the dice fall where they may, with the option perhaps of switching around one stat pair if I have a specific concept in mind. This has been working well for us since Birthright came out for 2e, and allows for the rare character with a stat bellow 8 (not normally an option in point-buy). Many may not like the possibility of a low stat, but I've always found it great fun (I'm currently running a 1/2 Orc Summoner in Serpent's Skull with the unlikely combo of an Int of 9, a Wis of 3, and a Cha of 18).
I have rarely allowed Point-buy for new players I'm dealing with on-line, since I can't really verify their rolls and don't know them well, but for players I know and trust it's die-rolling through and through. Nothing quite like that Christmas moment when a player flags me over happily to witness that naturally rolled 18!
Define a normally stated character...I like Point buy the best. My players hate it and refuse to use it. They like rolling but only if they roll good stats. Quite often we have the equivalent of 38 Point buy and it really screws up the CR of encounters they can face. So I use Max hit points on everything the encounter and/or apply the Advanced template with out adding to the CR.
It would be nice to see a normally stated character.
Normal to me something would fall into range of what a 15-25 pt buy would generate.
Let's get back to the OP's question of what the "best" ability generation method is. The answer, as I guess anyone can surmise from reading the varied responses is: it depends on what you like and want. To help the OP determine that for himself I would suggest he ask himself the following questions:
-- What power level do you want your campaign to be at? If high-powered, then one of the more generous rolling methods or higher point buys, if lower powered, then the more restrictive rolling methods or low point buy.
-- How important is it to your group that characters have relatively balanced abiity scores, that no character has significantly better or worse stats than any other? If it's important, it argues for point buy, fixed array or common array.
-- How do you feel about optimization? Point buy is an optimizer's best friend. You can still optimize with most methods, but the more restrictive the rolling method, the less tools you provide optimizers. Most determined optimizers I know despise anything other than point buy.
-- How much do you like variety in character ability scores and builds? Rolling methods will produce greater variation, while point buy methods will tend toward similar builds.
-- Do your players come to the table with a single concept they know they want to play? If so, they will be happier with point buy or with a rolling mechanic that allows them to place the final scores. If they aren't fixed on one particular concept they might draw inspiration from rolling the dice.
I hope that non-answer is helpful to you.
As Brian said, there is no best answer.
If you're gonna roll, then 4d6-DTL is good way to go. This method will yield winners and losers, so you have be mindful of that. The advantage is that you're going to have variation that just isn't present with PB stat generation. If your players are willing to work as a team, stronger characters covering for weaker ones, then this is fine way to do things.
25 PB is good way to roll as well. Everyone starts out on an even playing field. This method appeals to a lot of players for that reason. The downside here is that the stats will all look pretty similar, less "organic."
Personally, I like all 18's...
Let's get back to the OP's question of what the "best" ability generation method is. The answer, as I guess anyone can surmise from reading the varied responses is: it depends on what you like and want. To help the OP determine that for himself I would suggest he ask himself the following questions:
-- What power level do you want your campaign to be at? If high-powered, then one of the more generous rolling methods or higher point buys, if lower powered, then the more restrictive rolling methods or low point buy.
-- How important is it to your group that characters have relatively balanced abiity scores, that no character has significantly better or worse stats than any other? If it's important, it argues for point buy, fixed array or common array.
-- How do you feel about optimization? Point buy is an optimizer's best friend. You can still optimize with most methods, but the more restrictive the rolling method, the less tools you provide optimizers. Most determined optimizers I know despise anything other than point buy.
-- How much do you like variety in character ability scores and builds? Rolling methods will produce greater variation, while point buy methods will tend toward similar builds.
-- Do your players come to the table with a single concept they know they want to play? If so, they will be happier with point buy or with a rolling mechanic that allows them to place the final scores. If they aren't fixed on one particular concept they might draw inspiration from rolling the dice.I hope that non-answer is helpful to you.
"I wanted to know what is the best method of ability score generation that allows players to feel heroic but won't skew my organization of encounters."
My primary concern is what method will create characters that don't require me to tweak any further than what the basic encounter construction requires in the book with XP and CR for monsters. Clearly low ability score characters should be challenged differently than high...
OK. Thanks for reminding me of your exact question. My recommendation, if you are using an AP and want to do mimimal alteration of encounters from the book, is 15 point buy. That's the design assumption the APs and CRs in the Bestiary are built around. 20 point buy is also not far off. Elite array is pretty close. And some of the more retrictive rolling methods like 4d6 in order, drop lowest, will also not be overpowered. Same applies if you are creating your own adventure and want to just plug in encounters from the Bestiary.
In my opinion, feeling heroic has nothing to do with stats, and everything to do with character choices and actions. To me, the little guy overcoming his limitations to do great things is far more heroic than the genetically blessed ubermensch who breezes through everything on raw ability. Of course, opinions vary on that, and there is a sizable community of gamers who feel oppressed if they can't get a 20 in their prime stat at level one, and expect to be able to win most encounters in a single round. You know your own group best as to how they feel on that.
I think you'll find, however, as you get some experience under your belt, that modifying encounters to account for higher or lower power levels isn't that difficult. Which brings it right back to the area of opinion and preference.
The difference between the 3 point buys is not that significant. In all but 15 point buy, you will see 20s in primary stats if they want it, and in 15 you will see 18s. Higher point buy promotes more rounded characters with fewer weaknesses more than it promotes higher maximums. More MAD (multi-attribute-dependant) classes like the Monk or Paladin will see more out of higher point buy, whil SAD classes (Single-attribute-dependant) like the Wizard and Sorc will be roughly the same in their primary capacities.
In the end, no matter what point buy you find yourself with I do not think you can just play things blindly. Adventure Paths are designed with 15 point buy in mind, but you wont notice that much difference if you up it to 20, which I know most people are more comfortable with.
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Normal to me something would fall into range of what a 15-25 pt buy would generate.Define a normally stated character...I like Point buy the best. My players hate it and refuse to use it. They like rolling but only if they roll good stats. Quite often we have the equivalent of 38 Point buy and it really screws up the CR of encounters they can face. So I use Max hit points on everything the encounter and/or apply the Advanced template with out adding to the CR.
It would be nice to see a normally stated character.
Hm, i hate it when all my players are equal in power. It kinda kills things to me to see equal stats all over the characters sheets, just placed in different spots.
I prefer rolling because it creates diversity, unlike point buy, where there are less options. And if somebody ends up with a sub-otpimal characters, well c'est la vie. Not all of us are born equal i'm afraid. The world would be a terribly dull place if all people were equaly competent in their fields don't you agree?
Normal to me something would fall into range of what a 15-25 pt buy would generate.
I agree. And so does the system, being made and balanced with ability scores like that in mind.
I want my players to feel heroic, keep the stat blocks fair amongst them (which makes me think point-buy is ideal at this point) and still present a challenge
I would also strongly suggest purchase (which, by the way, is the correct name for the method used in the Pathfinder RPG. Point-buy is what is used in 3e - and since the numbers are different for the two systems, it's important to use the correct name to avoid misunderstandings - 25 point-buy is not the same as 25 point purchase).
20 points purchase should be a good compromise - not too weak, not too strong. The characters can feel strong, but they won't be too much to handle for standard encounters.
25 might not be too bad, either.
-- I intend to limit access to magic items and certain qualities like silver weapons and enchantments for bane, holy, disruptive and axiomatic.
Remember that this will make some monsters (including some of those you intend to use a lot) a lot tougher than they are supposed to be.
The sample vampire, for example, has 102 HP. About right for her CR 9 (115 is the target number). However, she also has DR 10/silver and magic, so without those magic silver weapons, your warriors will do a lot less damage. Those 102 HP will go a lot farther that way.
I like the earlier mentioned idea of not allowing a character to start with an ability score equal to or greater than 16 before racial modifiers.
That's a really crappy idea if you ask me. Makes it even harder to deal with the supernatural threats they're going to face.
No, leave them their 16s, 17s and 18s. If they want to invest that much into one of their ability scores, let them do it. They're going to pay for it.
Normal to me something would fall into range of what a 15-25 pt buy would generate.Define a normally stated character...I like Point buy the best. My players hate it and refuse to use it. They like rolling but only if they roll good stats. Quite often we have the equivalent of 38 Point buy and it really screws up the CR of encounters they can face. So I use Max hit points on everything the encounter and/or apply the Advanced template with out adding to the CR.
It would be nice to see a normally stated character.
Hm, i hate it when all my players are equal in power. It kinda kills things to me to see equal stats all over the characters sheets, just placed in different spots.
I prefer rolling because it creates diversity, unlike point buy, where there are less options. And if somebody ends up with a sub-otpimal characters, well c'est la vie. Not all of us are born equal i'm afraid. The world would be a terribly dull place if all people were equaly competent in their fields don't you agree?
Bear in mind, the players only have control over one thing and that's their character so, in my opinion, the option presented to them, as it relates to character generation, should allow players to generate stats that reasonably guarantee them a stat array that would allow them to work with their concept. The key word here is "option". If a player wants to go old school and roll 3d6 straight down the line, I won't stop them but I'll make sure the rest of the party is OK with it as well. However, I'll present a starter option that will allow a player to have a decent set of stats.
Every GM and every game group is different,at the end of the day there's no right or wrong way to go about it.
Hm, i hate it when all my players are equal in power.
Yeah, that just sucks. The way nobody dominates because of his outrageous rolls. How are the others going to feel inferior? That obviously playing favourites thing is so bothersome.
It kinda kills things to me to see equal stats all over the characters sheets, just placed in different spots.I prefer rolling because it creates diversity, unlike point buy, where there are less options.
So true! Because there is nothing to characters except those stats. How else could diversity be created if not by unbalanced character generation methods?
And if somebody ends up with a sub-otpimal characters, well c'est la vie. Not all of us are born equal i'm afraid.
And people play RPGs because they're so happy about real life that they want to play that in their spare time, too.
That's why wage-slave is the most favourite class in Pathfinder.