I certainly appreciate all of the advice. There are certainly some great RP suggestions. I can definitely imagine a scenario where I could bluff him into believing that it's the vampire half of me that is causing a bad detection.
For those who suggested prepping for the inevitable battle to come, don't worry! I scribed up some scrolls of vanish, touch of idiocy, touch of gracelessness, spectral hand, and ghoul touch. I'm as prepared as I can be, if it comes to blows.
Let me just say though (because now I feel a little like I've slandered my friend [is it "libel" on a messageboard?]), this is not a bad guy in person, a newcomer, or a bad player at the table. His first character in this adventure died, he left to go serve his two weeks, and when he returned, this was what he brought to the table. Mostly, I just think this is just how he plays a Paladin...
So what I was really looking for was some good RP ways to avoid the confrontation.
Along those lines: I wonder if a combination of Gentle Repose and the new UM spell Sculpt Corpse, plus a really good bluff check, could bend around that "no summoning undead around the Paladin thing."
There are some other things to consider as well.
He is slowing the party down detecting evil constantly. It is a move action to do on one target at a time. Thanks for halving our travel rate, now we won't get to Helm's Deep in time to slaughter the 10,000 super-orcs bent on slaughtering the several hundred old men and young boys along with several hundred more noncombatants!
The paladin's code, while much looser in Pathfinder, is on him and the GM to enforce. I won't condone another player deliberately acting to violate that code any more than I would condone the paladin's player ramming his code down the rest of the group's throats. As the new character he has the onus to play cooperatively with the rest.
Smite Evil is a very finite "resource" - there are no Extra Smite feats (so far), and it is hoped that it stays that way. If he burns through it smiting a few insignificant critters before you get to the "boss", you're probably entitled to razz him for it.
The slowing down thing is a PITA, much like the rogue that insists on searching constantly for traps ... when they didn't bother to take the Trap Spotter talent to make the process as painless as possible. The latter character is worse, but at least he's not trying to pick everyone's pockets "just because".
1) didn't think it would be a problem
2) is uncomfortable with the evil character's behavior or abilities, and is trying to retroactively 'fix it in-game'
3) totally digs inter-party conflict, like one guy who GMed for us at the gaming store who boasted, 'I don't even have to prepare an adventure, just let the players pick fights with each other!'I'm a fan of the 'never attribute to malice...' school of thought, so I'd be inclined to go with 1 or 2.
Yeah this sounds like a GM goof to me. I don't blame the paladin player for playing the way he's playing. I don't blame the evil player for reacting correspondingly. It's the GM's job to make sure something like this doesn't happen.
Unless the party is against a giant "greater" evil and they need to stick together to fight this power, the paladin should have no business adventuring with the character. In the case that the paladin *must* adventure with the evil character, the paladin *must* tolerate the evilness of the evil character. Otherwise, you really can't adventure with someone you're trying to kill, hinder, constantly berate, etc. In terms of gameplay, nothing good can come of this; someone is going to lose their character one way or another. The only exception is if one character turns to the other side (evil->non-evil, good->non-good). The GM can let this play out, but generally speaking it's not good GMing (unless the GM/group are very experienced, which is not the case here).
The "best case" scenario is for the paladin to retire his character.
|
Here's a suggestion I didn't see cropping up: confess.
You don't have to tell him you're an evil person and you're going to mend your ways, but you might tell him that you are a necromancer, meaning that you work death magic. Do this openly and in front of the rest of the party.
If he tries to smite you with the rest of the party there, it'll probably end badly for him. Once he's decided not to smite you, he won't reverse that decision just because everyone else is gone.
It'll also give your characters a chance to set ground rules such as 'no summoning undead monsters' or 'don't just smite things because they smell like death' or even 'I don't care what you do when I'm not looking'.
Here's a suggestion I didn't see cropping up: confess.
That's a possibility I mentioned, but most players wouldn't want to change their character simply because someone brought a paladin into the group. It is a "solution", but it's usually a bad one from the perspective of the evil character.
If he tries to smite you with the rest of the party there, it'll probably end badly for him. Once he's decided not to smite you, he won't reverse that decision just because everyone else is gone.
Depends on what alingment the rest of the party has and how much do they know about the necromancer actions.
I'm kinda in the same boat.
I was going to bring in an alchemist who did all sorts of bizarre experiments.. then I find out one player who is playing a monk right now, suddenly wants to be the party "leader".. So he is making a paladin.
Which I can't justly say that my vivisectionist alchemist and possibly re-animator (If i can convince my DM to apply the same effects it does to bombs to my sneak attack) is anything but evil, even if he is a righteous dude.
I've always disliked paladins. Mostly because they quickly throw down a "My way or the highway" event.
...I'm playing a LE Dhampir Necromancy Specialist Wizard.
Paladin detects and says "hey you're evil" you respond, "No I am a Dhampir, my heritage messes up those 'Detect Evil' abilities."
Not true but then that would be using player knowledge.
And since he is the latest joiner, the player can't even complain about your character. It's him who made that paladin.
I don't like to play the 'I was here first' card too much, but this a sitution were I would.
The necromancer was there first, by a wide margin it would seem, so the returning player shouldn't have chosen a Paladin and more importantly the Dungeon Master shouldn't have allowed it.
If you had both made your characters at the same time then it would differant, but you didn't and as such the conflict should be resolved out of character and in favor of the necromancer.
Of course I also agree with Ævux in that I don't generally care for Paladins because they general ended up dominating the party and trying to force other into playing their way. It's my feeling that in order to play a Paladin you should have the approval of the rest of the group beforehand.
As a GM, I make it clear to paladin players that their first goal is to redeem evil characters. Devils, undead and the like are beyond redemption, but otherwise an evil character must pose a clear threat to innocents to warrant a righteous smackdown.
Killing someone without direct provocation, no matter their alignment, is murder.
|
|
Well, at first I read this as a Giger Paladin, and my mind was filled with some twisted, biomechanical abomination of a paladin from the Far Realms, which then made me think, why isn't he an anti-paladin? Then I spotted the spelling. Ah well, one can dream!
That being said, like many issues of player conflict, this is less about the game and more about the people at the table. The DM either clearly wants to encourage player conflict if he allows opposed alignments, or is inexperienced enough that he doesn't realize what sorts of problems it may present. If it's the former, well, best of luck to you, though I'd never play at such a table. If it's the latter, I'd suggest an open discussion about just what the players and the DM want out of the adventure.
What about Nazis? Killing them isn't murder, right?
Depends on what you consider to be provocation, I guess.
Gassing 6,000,000 Jews is a pretty strong contender, for me.|
|
Of course I also agree with Ævux in that I don't generally care for Paladins because they general ended up dominating the party and trying to force other into playing their way. It's my feeling that in order to play a Paladin you should have the approval of the rest of the group beforehand.
I've played with players that are annoying and disruptive no matter what sort of game, character or class is involved, so to say that somehow a specific core class should require group permission is a bit of an overreaction.
If you've got a problem player, recognize that it's the player who is causing the problem, not the system.
Just because he detects evil is not just cause to cut evil down where it stands. Don't give him any excuse to strike you down:
* Treat the paladin (and everyone around him) fairly and courteously.
* Tithe. Support those noble causes your character has sympathy for.
* Treat your friends decently and be worthy of their trust. (Even evil guys can be loyal to their friends.)
* Admit, "Yes, the anger burning in my heart drive me to desire things I know are wrong. I lust for revenge against those who have wronged me and covet the power granted to those who use such abilities unwisely, but I am trying to rise above the darkness within me. Have I ever given you cause to condemn me?"
I have never understood the "My way or the highway" approach some people playing Paladins seem to take. LG does NOT = Totalitarian dictatorship.
I'm actually looking at a similar situation brewing in my own Carrion Crown campaign, where we have an otherwise very loyal LE Death Mage and not one but two Paladins (one of Iomidae, one - fallen - of Erastil). I've demonstrated before in a prior game (the one where the Paladin of Erastil fell) that I have no problem punishing a Paladin for being unlawful (in this case handing over his authority as a Baron without consulting anyone to a complete stranger). To be Lawful is to be both Honorable and Loyal, to your friends/allies/party as well as to your cause.
If a Paladin discovers he's got an evil ally he can't just whack him out of hand - the ability to detect evil gives no authority or justification in-and-of itself, just the heads-up that the individual is a bad person and may be trouble. Acting preemptively makes the Paladin the wrong-doer, and should result in immediate fallen status. If the Necromancer is doing awful, unwarranted things to innocents, that may be another story, but otherwise the character has no right to attack him (seek to reform? oh yeah, but smite, no). As I see it the Paladin will have three options, once the truth is out:
* Reform - use it as a rp excuse, where the two periodically discuss morality as the Paladin seeks to bring the Necromancer around to his way of viewing things (of course, there's always the risk the Paladin might be converted to the Necromancer's view of the world).
* Negotiate - find a compromise between the two (again, good excuse to rp) that both characters can live with. This seems to be the route my group has taken, where the Death Mage takes control of encountered Undead, then hands them over to the Paladin to destroy and bury in whatever church graveyard will accept them.
* Leave - If he's the sort that cannot abide associating with someone he KNOWS is evil, even for the greater good, he may need to remove himself from the party proper. The GM could then have the player take up a new character and possibly reintroduce the old PC as a rival questing to end what-ever menace the group was facing, but on his own or with less-objectionable allies.
Of course, you can end this ASAP.
Silent image for decoy, Alter Self, Silence. A few rays of enfeeblement and coup the grace that goodiness out of him.
Basically, talk him around enough that he decides to take you on as a project to redeem a sinner while you work on him and see how long it takes you to get him to fall. After all, once he's an ex-paladin, he won't be quite so problematic and will likely end up a more tractable Lawful Neutral.
Thank you, this made me laugh out loud.
As to the Paladin/Player, part of the *fun* of LE is using the law against him. Ask him what crime you've committed, who appointed him judge/jury executioner, etc. Bug him for last rites for *everything* he kills, make him donate to the needy, etc. Volunteer him for things "Why yes, madam, if your doxies can withstand the lectures on virtue, I'm sure my holy companion will use his mercies to cure disease, for no charge." etc. Bascially, if he wants to play an aspect of the paladin to make your life difficult, use the class to make his life difficult.
At the same time, you should sacrifice *some* resources for your own good. Donate to some orphanages, offer to use your (non-icky) spells to help a community, etc. If the townsfolk love you, it doesn't matter how much of an evil bastard you really are. I was able to do this with Shadrach, taking short term risks, to allow me to (literally) get away with murder later.
** spoiler omitted **
+1
Fortunately, your character is Lawful, so get him on the Law rather than the Goodness aspect, though question that too. If he says he detects Evil from you, freely admit that you are no angel but also that you never pretended to be otherwise, and state that all men have their virtues and their sins. If he admits that he is using a paladin's Detect Evil ability to Detect Evil from you, mention that this is an invasion of privacy, which is itself an evil act. Not the greatest of sins, certainly, but not the smallest either.
Ask the paladin if he had just cause to inspect your aura and moreover if he was doing so under some legal authority and if so which. Remind him that presumption of innocence is the cornerstone of justice (which is LG by another name) whereas presumption of guilt is the cornerstone of tyranny (LE) and ask him which of those two alignments he serves. Tell him the tale of the inquisitor who, in his zeal to find diabolic witches marked with the devil's mark, spied upon a group of virtuous maidens while they bathed, leading to their suicide and ruin, not to mention the inquisitor having his eyes struck out on the order of the Katapeshi judge, who wisely remarked that just as men who violate chastity should be made eunuchs so they can never sin that way again, just so should those who willfully violate modesty and peep into the privacy of the harem be made blind so they may never act on such temptation again.
Those who read auras without permission or even just cause? What would the wise Saranraen judge say about them?
Mention that justice is nothing, however, if it is not tempered by mercy, and magnanimously say that you will forgive him his trespass this once if he will swear by all that is holy that he will not violate your privacy so again.
If he presses you that you really have done something evil and wicked, tell him that your sins are your own, but the only one you will submit to be judged by is Lady Pharasma when you die. Mention--truthfully--that the paladin's shining...
+1
Have an out of character discussion with that player. Ask him this: "If you're using your class abilities on me, does that mean I get to use my class abilities on you?"
Did you ever do that? Were you punched in the face?
Because that line of reasoning would probably elicit a violent reaction from me :P
By the same logic, the wizard can disintegrate the cleric after the cleric healed the wizard? I mean, since we're already making nonsensical comparisons like "detect evil" and "attack rolls", we might as well go whole hog and call for an all-out pogrom against common sense.
Come back when the paladin attempts to smite the necromancer without good reason.
We had a situation in a gaming group where the wizard took offense at what another PC was doing. When the other PC was asleep, he cast Geas on him to prevent the offensive action. At that point, out of character, I pointed out that since the wizard was casting spells on the one character (using class abilities) did that mean the other character could use his class abilities (like Base Attack Bonus) on the wizard and that would be considered okay by the group?
Of course not. The geas prevents it. :)
And of course the fact that there is a difference between violent and non-violent actions.
The act of walking up to people and using Detect Evil on them in polite society would be considered extremely rude and disrespectful, to the point that it's essentially like accusing someone of a crime. It's something that's used during criminal investigations and combat.
No. Paladins may not willingly associate with evil characters except if it's necessary for the greater good. It's only reasonable that the paladin will use his gods-given powers - powers he can use as often as he wants, without much of an effort - to make sure he doesn't associate with evil.
They're given those powers for a reason. Not using them so they can delude themselves that they "didn't know those guys were evil" is not going to work.
As a GM, I make it clear to paladin players that their first goal is to redeem evil characters. Devils, undead and the like are beyond redemption, but otherwise an evil character must pose a clear threat to innocents to warrant a righteous smackdown.
Killing someone without direct provocation, no matter their alignment, is murder.
It depends...
I could very easily see a paladin of Torag making a pre-emptive strike at an enemy of his people.
I don't generally care for Paladins because they general ended up dominating the party and trying to force other into playing their way. It's my feeling that in order to play a Paladin you should have the approval of the rest of the group beforehand.
Paladins are fine! It's idiots that are the problem.
* Admit, "Yes, the anger burning in my heart drive me to desire things I know are wrong. I lust for revenge against those who have wronged me and covet the power granted to those who use such abilities unwisely, but I am trying to rise above the darkness within me. Have I ever given you cause to condemn me?"
Nah, that is letting the terrorists win.
Unless you're in some sort of Benign Crusador Dictatorship, it's highly unlikely that there is a law against being evil. That means evil characters commit no crime for being evil. That means they have the same rights as everyone else, and that includes not being harassed by vigilantes (and even if the Paladin has police power, he can't do anything unless the evil character actually commits a crime.) And no arrests on hunches, either. "You looked guilty, so I took you in" isn't LG behaviour.
So be unabashedly and unashamedly evil. Admit it if asked. Don't be rude about it, but don't kiss his arse, either. No need to "mend your ways". Good and evil are just opinions, standpoints. Neither is universally right or wrong, despite what the good-aligned gods want everyone to think.
Of course, you can end this ASAP.
Silent image for decoy, Alter Self, Silence. A few rays of enfeeblement and coup the grace that goodiness out of him.
Nah, that's too brutal. Plus, just wait for the sucker to be asleep and kill him with his own weapon. Way funnier.
However, if the wizard in question is level 11 or up, I have a far better idea: Wait until he's asleep and then geas the sucker!
Nobody even needs to know. You geas him that he can never harm or cross you. As long as he never harms you, it won't ever come up. And when he wants to, he finds out he suddenly doesn't want to. He can't overcome the spell.
As a GM, I make it clear to paladin players that their first goal is to redeem evil characters. Devils, undead and the like are beyond redemption, but otherwise an evil character must pose a clear threat to innocents to warrant a righteous smackdown.
Killing someone without direct provocation, no matter their alignment, is murder.
It depends...
I could very easily see a paladin of Torag making a pre-emptive strike at an enemy of his people.
Only if he's in the lands of his people. And actually a known, active enemy of his people.
Only if he's in the lands of his people. And actually a known, active enemy of his people.As a GM, I make it clear to paladin players that their first goal is to redeem evil characters. Devils, undead and the like are beyond redemption, but otherwise an evil character must pose a clear threat to innocents to warrant a righteous smackdown.
Killing someone without direct provocation, no matter their alignment, is murder.
It depends...
I could very easily see a paladin of Torag making a pre-emptive strike at an enemy of his people.
I agree with the known, active enemy of his people.
I don't agree that he needs to be in the lands of his people.
An option that I don't believe that has been discussed is to simply refuse to role play this issue with him. Do not react to anything he does, ignore the baiting behavior of the detect evil, and just change the subject back to the plot if you're forced to speak.
Be the good player--talk about what the party needs to do to advance the story; don't be the bad player who creates selfish drama that sucks up time at the table and threatens the overall story.
If push comes to shove, you just say, "Look. I came here to game. Did everyone else come here to game. How about we stop messing around and play the game?"
Have an out of character discussion with that player. Ask him this: "If you're using your class abilities on me, does that mean I get to use my class abilities on you?"Did you ever do that? Were you punched in the face?
Because that line of reasoning would probably elicit a violent reaction from me :P
By the same logic, the wizard can disintegrate the cleric after the cleric healed the wizard? I mean, since we're already making nonsensical comparisons like "detect evil" and "attack rolls", we might as well go whole hog and call for an all-out pogrom against common sense.
Come back when the paladin attempts to smite the necromancer without good reason.
Of course not. The geas prevents it. :)
And of course the fact that there is a difference between violent and non-violent actions.
Geas and Cure spells are not in the same ballpark. If you started using abilities that can hurt/kill another player, do you NOT think they're entitled to respond in kind? Would you expect them to just roll over and take it?
I'm the same way with people who play rogues and actively steal from party members. During medieval periods, most thieves had their hands cut off and I will warn other players of that. Now, if they skim a little off the top before the party is aware of the treasure, or go get their own, I'll probably be okay with it, they're rogues, they're supposed to be a little shady.
But steal something valuable from me and not return it when I ask for it, I'm gonna take your hand.
People play nice, I play nice. Stop playing nice, and I stop playing nice.
Also, you guessed at what the Geas was about and were wrong. It was something much more unwholesome than just hitting people, so hitting people wasn't prohibited. And I stand my example. If you play a wizard and cast harmful spells on my full BAB character, where I am the sole target (accidental fireballs hitting mostly enemies are fine), and you're declaring yourself as my enemy. This is a game where we kill our enemies.
How has this topic gone on for so long with no reference to Belkar Bitterleaf from the webcomic Order of the Stick?
|
All suggestions sound good to me though some of them are unnecessarily brutal.
I usually play Paladins and most players in my group tend to overreact whenever I do so, especially the loot-freak sneak-happy rogue of the group.
The answer to your dilemma is simple, your lineage is dark, your art is dark and your purposes most likely will be even darker in the future.
Surely for now you are contempt with a neutral-like attitude but you should be embracing your inner self sooner or later.
Deal with him in words before you act.
Law and Good can be interpreted differently from many perspectives, find them out and hit them at his face as every respectable Lawful Evil lawyer would do.
It's highly probable that he will resort to violence, it's tempting to return the favor... DON'T!!!
Call for some reason from your teammates make him feel guilty for his unjust intentions.
If he thinks that you are a weakling make sure that he gets the place he deserves to.
Subtle threats with half truths and misleading actions can bring utmost frustration even to the most resolute Paladin, Falling from Grace is right by the corner for him.
When you are more confident for your powers you can become the threat he was afraid that you were from the beginning, if you want to of course.
Enjoy.
|
Simple situation here
1) Discuss with the paladin player and the GM about what happens once you start detecting as evil. Point out that it would be an inherently chaotic act to arbitrarily punish you without evidence or proof of any illegal or immoral acts. Say that you don't want PvP to occur and that it's not fair to you to be forced to lose your character because of this. Try to find a worked solution.
2) If the Player is adamant and is acting like a Hulk Paladin (Evil? RAAARRGH!!!!! PALADIN SMASH!) then you can justifiably say that your character fears for his life.
3) If it is clear that your character will be smited as soon as you level, get to him first. Ram a dagger through his skull whilst he's sleeping.
I rarely PvP but if it's clear that he is basically going to PvP you first then frankly he's the one who escalated things and all you are doing is dealing with an issue before it occurs.
To be clear though make sure this is definitely what's happening before you go all John Rambo on his preachy butt.
Of course, you can end this ASAP.
Silent image for decoy, Alter Self, Silence. A few rays of enfeeblement and coup the grace that goodiness out of him.
Nah, that's too brutal. Plus, just wait for the sucker to be asleep and kill him with his own weapon. Way funnier.
However, if the wizard in question is level 11 or up, I have a far better idea: Wait until he's asleep and then geas the sucker!
Nobody even needs to know. You geas him that he can never harm or cross you. As long as he never harms you, it won't ever come up. And when he wants to, he finds out he suddenly doesn't want to. He can't overcome the spell.
Yes, but think about the paladin being too weak to move around in his shinning fullplate - its like a metal turtle!!!- Maybe you can teach him the meaning of fear, when you kill him with his own weapon.-
Of course, following this path, its like free falling into the darkside xD
Someone pointed out bestow cursing him so every thing looks evil on the detect evil radar, but it would be more fun to make everything look not eviil, mostly because then he can't tell if your evil and he doesn't loose his character for "smiting" every person they meat.
Pick up a 'cursed' item that makes you detect as evil. Not an actual cursed item, just something sinister looking that you claim is cursed.
Paladins are usually not that bright, and terrible at spellcraft, so he'll never know.
And of course, you can't get rid of a cursed item, so there you go...
If you want to think out of the box, take a look at a game like Burning Wheel which has a social combat system.
That would allow the paladin to make social (non-damaging) attacks like "If I win this argument, you will never summon undead again". Or your responses like "Religious freedom dictates that your paladin's code does not apply to my actions, only to yours. I will prove it to you thusly..."
--------------------------------------------------------------
You have a conflict (normally good for RP games), but you're trying to resolve it with the combat system, because it's the only system you think you have.
Try making it into opposed skill checks, bluff vs sense motive, perception vs. stealth, etc. That leads to MORE rp fun, as the paladin used the remove fatigue mercy to stand watch all night, rather than leave the necromancer unsupervised.
Is there a reason you can not change your alignment to lawful neutral?A) Because his character isn't?
B) Because he doesn't want to change his character?
C) Because the new character is the problem, not the existing character?
Understood, but if both players are going to work towards a solution, then all the options should be on the table. In general, that is why I do not allow evil characters in a campaign, unless everyone agrees up front and everyone is aware (new players). Even then it is rare, unless it is an all evil campaign.
Don't hide.
This is a great opportunity for both of your to explore your characters. Instead, openly play your character. When told you detect as evil, respond with "oooookay, that's creepy. I guess you'll have to go ahead and redeem me then."
It's up to the Paladin to identify your evil actions. It's not enough that you've got an aura because auras can be faked. A LG Paladin has to investigate and weigh the circumstances. A guy he's been traveling with for weeks or months without seeing any evil actions... not someone he can just attack without incurring his deity's wrath.
If the Paladin can't find evil behaviour the most he can do is keep an eye on you. It's his problem, not yours. Something which - I eagerly point out - you'd be quite evil to repeatedly make clear to the Paladin.
I agree with the known, active enemy of his people.
I don't agree that he needs to be in the lands of his people.
If you go to, say, Absalom and kill someone there, you'll just have broken a law. Committed murder. Cease to be lawful. Lose paladin abilities.
I might go as far as if you have a mission behind enemy lines, you can strike them down in their own country as well. But if you're in neutral territory, you're breaking laws when you just attack people.
I agree with the known, active enemy of his people.
I don't agree that he needs to be in the lands of his people.If you go to, say, Absalom and kill someone there, you'll just have broken a law. Committed murder. Cease to be lawful. Lose paladin abilities.
I might go as far as if you have a mission behind enemy lines, you can strike them down in their own country as well. But if you're in neutral territory, you're breaking laws when you just attack people.
Oh yes i agree with you on that, but if you are a dwarf varisian paladin chasing an orc warlord (who attacked your people) to Belkzen i am pretty sure you are allowed to kill him in his country.
Geas and Cure spells are not in the same ballpark. If you started using abilities that can hurt/kill another player, do you NOT think they're entitled to respond in kind? Would you expect them to just roll over and take it?
Just for the record: The original topic was that the paladin used detect evil and you felt justified to just let loose.
Geas might hurt/kill. It depends on how it's used. In the case you mentioned, it probably couldn't hurt the character. It was about stopping someone from doing something offensive to the wizard.
Point out that it would be an inherently chaotic act to arbitrarily punish you without evidence or proof of any illegal or immoral acts.
Nah, not even that. Immoral acts are fine. Can't punish anyone for them unless they're also illegal.
And even if there have been illegal acts, the paladin can only act on them to the extend the law allows him.
Unless he has police power, that might not be very much.
2) If the Player is adamant and is acting like a Hulk Paladin (Evil? RAAARRGH!!!!! PALADIN SMASH!) then you can justifiably say that your character fears for his life.
3) If it is clear that your character will be smited as soon as you level, get to him first. Ram a dagger through his skull whilst he's sleeping.
Point out that should he smite you when he detects you as evil, he loses all his powers. Attacking someone without provocation is an unlawful and probably evil act.
Pick up a 'cursed' item that makes you detect as evil. Not an actual cursed item, just something sinister looking that you claim is cursed.
Paladins are usually not that bright, and terrible at spellcraft, so he'll never know.
And of course, you can't get rid of a cursed item, so there you go...
Two things: Paladins might not be bright, but a lot of them are good at spotting lies. That's wis-based, not int-based. And Sense Motive is a class skill for paladins.
And you can totally get rid of cursed items. Even if the paladin doesn't know that, he can still spot the lie (part of the first lie I'd say).
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One fun thing about playing an evil character, is that you can do as much good as you want. It's utterly liberating. You are, in fact, much freer to do good, than a Paladin, as you will never have to worry about your code of conduct restricting you from freeing people who have been lawfully enslaved, or defying the commands of a corrupt authority, or 'behaving dishonorably,' or using the most effective means necessary to save innocents (such as setting poisoned traps for the oncoming raiders).
Make evil-sounding excuses for the good deeds you do, and leave everyone thoroughly confused.
Define your character choices around pride, arrogance, greed, selfishness, etc. and you can justify all sorts of 'heroic' behavior, like refusing to leave allies behind, or saving a village, or freeing slaves, or even setting up an orphanage.
It's easiest in games where the GM sets up some less-than-black-and-white situations for the Paladin to have to RP his way around (instead of one who just blithely ignores the Paladin's code and alignment, and allows the player to run him as a Fighter with super-powers), as your evil character can Occam's Razor his way through the ethical Gordian Knots. While the Paladin is still figuring out how he can free the slaves without losing his kewl sooper-powerz, you can just go, "Bang. I free the slaves / save the village / unseat the corrupt Duke."
And if the Paladin is utterly trapped by some moral or ethical dilemna, and it would be inappropriate for your evil dude to have saved the day, just flat-out lie. "I didn't free the slaves! Why on earth would I do that? Lawless abolitionist scum!"
|
|
First the spells Misdirection (2nd level), Nondetection (3rd level), & Mindblank (8th level) are one’s you’ll want to have as they become available and if you can get 1 permanently placed on an item that you wear even better.None of these, and not even Undetectable Alignment, are any good on an ongoing basis because the opposed party gets a will save to notice the trickery -- and he'll have good saves because he's a paladin.
Second determine how you are going to handle things if or when your cover is blown. Detecting as evil isn’t really enough to start a fight. Personally I’d ask him if he was sure he was doing it right and shrug if he insisted I was evil. Then I’d probably say something along the lines of, “Ok, maybe I’m a selfish bastard I never claimed I was an angel, I’m still doing good right? Are you saying I should stop?”
Roleplaying it out is the best solution...except for the last part, because he's almost certain to respond with "YES."
One major problem here is that too many players assume that only paladins give a crap about evil, and that is plainly untrue. (A paladin just gets Detect evil for free.) When I play clerics (good or not), Detect Evil is always in my roster of 1st-level spells. A good-alignment character of any class will have serious reservations about consorting with anyone of whom they are aware is evil -- and if you wrote "LE" on your character-sheet and are doing evil things (such as casting evil magic), they you are evil.
|
|
if the Paladin is utterly trapped by some moral or ethical dilemnaNo paladin with any brains is ever trapped by this sort of thing unless the DM is out to railroad him (usually be equating "lawful" with "unquestioningly obey the edict of every evil tyrant").
"I didn't free the slaves! Why on earth would I do that? Lawless abolitionist scum!"
And the paladin immediately pegs your sentiment as evil since you've evinced zero empathy whatsoever for the plight of innocents being crushed in a tyranny.