The Geiger Paladin: How do you handle him?


Advice

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This is NOT another Paladin Code/morality-alignment question. Please.

The situation is this: In my current campaign, I'm playing a LE Dhampir Necromancy Specialist Wizard. The "E" in his alignment is mostly because he dabbles (well, completely delves into) the foulest magic he can find, in pursuit of his own ends. Otherwise, he's not really a "bad guy". He's fairly charming, obeys the law, has never once harmed an innocent, etc...

Recently, a player has rejoined our group after a several-week hiatus (a combination of character death and National Guard service), and dropped a Paladin on us. That didn't alarm me, honestly, though I knew that I would need to be very subtle about my characters actions in a RP sense. However, the second he joined our group in-game, he detected evil. Then did so again as soon as we awoke the next day. Then every person, plant, and gazebo we passed throughout the session.

Fortunately, as we are only Level 4, and I'm not a Cleric, he couldn't get a read on me, but that only buys me the rest of this level (1 or 2 more game sessions). I pretty much already lost the ability to summon undead (without starting a feud with his character), and I really don't want to have to waste my limited resources hiding my alignment every single day. How do you rein in the Geiger-Paladins?


Find an RP way to explain detecting as evil. Perhaps you were cursed, perhaps someone hid a magic item on your person, perhaps you make sure that you get hit by a really evil guy and it rubbed off somehow, perhaps.... There are any number of reasons someone could detect as evil. Unless he has ranks in spellcraft, knowledge religion, and a few other things he isn't likely to be able to quantifiably deny what you're saying without using OOC knowledge.

The real issue isn't that there's a paranoid paladin, it's moreso (imo) that a player seems to intentionally be inviting inter-party conflict for no real reason. Don't get me wrong, my Paladins are always stopping a second re-up Detect Evil, but some evil isn't worth fighting because it's a 'lesser evil' of sorts.

If worse comes to worst, you can always get a lead plate :P


just don't play stupid evil, don't get caught. set you I want to do monstrous things. openly plan aside briefly.

paladins are about law and good, if he detects you as evil he can't do anything about it if he doesn't witness anything. once he knows though he's kind of screwed as he cannot knowingly adventure with evil. do you may want to talk to your dm or the paladins player


First the spells Misdirection (2nd level), Nondetection (3rd level), & Mindblank (8th level) are one’s you’ll want to have as they become available and if you can get 1 permanently placed on an item that you wear even better.

Second determine how you are going to handle things if or when your cover is blown. Detecting as evil isn’t really enough to start a fight. Personally I’d ask him if he was sure he was doing it right and shrug if he insisted I was evil. Then I’d probably say something along the lines of, “Ok, maybe I’m a selfish bastard I never claimed I was an angel, I’m still doing good right? Are you saying I should stop?”

It may cause some intra-party tension but then again it could be fun to role-play, maybe you could get him to get stuck on the idea that you could be converted to good. After all you are law abiding and are go on adventurers where you presumably are helping people. Meanwhile you can try and work out a better way to conceal your evil nature for example make a spell that makes your alignment read as neutral rather then evil. Maybe he’ll even pat himself on the back for a job well done xP

Liberty's Edge

I feel your pain: I've got a LN Chelaxian Wizard, who's Neutral due to more of an "overall average" of her actions. While she has no desires to hurt innocents, she's just as happy sacrificing them for a Planar Binding-type spell, as saving the world from the BBEG.

Really, she just doesn't care about that section of her alignment: She's Lawful to a fault... and that's about as far as her alignment concerns her.

Anywho, recently she picked up that aforementioned Planar Binding spell of the Greater version, and our Stupid Good Paladin had something to say about it: Bind anything Good, I'll kill you. Bind anything Evil, I'll kill you....

I didn't think that was very Paladin-like, but he was allowed to do so anyway.

That's not even to mention my LE Imp familiar he's stated he'll kill next time he sees it... so there goes using my familiar.

I've thought about just going ahead and Binding things and utilizing my familiar, but I really don't want to cause inter-party tension... and I'm pretty sure I could kill him with a little planning :P


WWPD (what would palpatine do)?

What is your character's stance on the paladin? Does he see him as just a danger to himself, or as an actual enemy? Your evil wizard doesn't seem THAT evil - more tainted by the magic he uses, than actually hurting people. Is he ignorant of other's suffering, and to what extent would he oppose the paladin?

How is your group's stance on in-party "fighting" and intriguing? It seems most parties avoid it or alltogether bans it, but I've been in some groups where it was an important part of the game (though you had to be smart about it).

As someone else has said, setting yourself up to be hit by some kind of evil magic or weapon might be a good way to explain the "taint" of evil. Another way could be acting REALLY good when he's around, and explaining that the taint of evil is in his blood, that he's born cursed and that he's doing all he can to try to get it out.

Another way to set it up might be to make the paladin not trust his ability to detect evil to a hundred percent - use Disguise Other to make some random non-evil person look like a REALLY evil guy you've encountered - some villain or another. When the paladin detects evil and sees that the hobgoblin Baby-Muncher isn't evil, he won't trust it as much. If the wizard also employs someone to disguise himself as a fellow paladin that they meet, and that says that "times are strange, I can't even trust my ability to discern vileness anymore, people I know to be good of heart may seem evil sometimes and those I know to be of wicked blood will seem as good as anyone".

This requires a lot of work on the character's part, and some aid and understanding from the DM (not DM-fiat against the detection though, just him running NPC's you've hired) but it could lead to some great role-playing moments.

If the paladin doesn't trust his ability to detect evil, he won't use it as much.


If you want to be a bad boy, and the paladin is as smite-happy as detect-happy, you could make sure to have some evil magic item, then fool someone into accepting a misdirection spell and thus making that guy appear evil. Preferably it should be a non-evil tiefling or something like that. Maybe even use Disguise Other to make the NPC look like a succubus or something. Make sure the NPC is in somewhere suspicious - but he should still be innocent and not really doing anything bad. Cause the paladin to detect the NPC as evil, and provoke him into attacking the "threat". When he kills the innocent that just happened to be in the wrong place, well, he's a fighter without feats.

That may be bad in your group though, as said it depends on how you play.


If this were under 3.5e, I'd say since all undead detect as evil per the Detect Evil rules regardless of actual alignment and your character is a dhampir, bluff the paladin into thinking it's a fluke of your heritage that you also detect as evil. Would be a risky bluff but might work.

Unfortunately that doesn't work under Pathfinder since Detect Evil actually specifies "aligned undead" now so all undead no longer detect as evil. Could try it anyway, but there's a chance the pally might even know all undead don't detect as evil.

Barring that, I say invest in a lead long-johns, a lead-lined mask, and lead gloves.

Pathfinder Core Rulebook (pg 267) wrote:
Each round, you can turn to detect evil in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.


Wolf Munroe wrote:

If this were under 3.5e, I'd say since all undead detect as evil per the Detect Evil rules regardless of actual alignment and your character is a dhampir, bluff the paladin into thinking it's a fluke of your heritage that you also detect as evil. Would be a risky bluff but might work.

Unfortunately that doesn't work under Pathfinder since Detect Evil actually specifies "aligned undead" now so all undead no longer detect as evil. Could try it anyway, but there's a chance the pally might even know all undead don't detect as evil.

The only non-evil undead in PF RAW are ghosts, IIRC. Unless he's got several ranks in Know: Religion, I think there's a fair chance he doesn't know about. On the other hand, the wizard has to know about it too.


There are ways to hide your alignment.

I can't seem to remember them at the moment though.


Bad Paladins and their problems aside, perhaps misdirection would be good. Maybe targeting your boots. They're probably not evil. :P


First, you still have 2 session to be an ass about the detect evil. Claim it invades your privacy or something.

If you can get him to stop within 2 sessions, you don't have a problem as he won't use his detect evil on you anymore.

If your character is so lawful as you claim it to be, play on the paladins lawful side. As long as you follow the law and assuming the law is made by good people, you can't be that evil that it's worth smiting.


Oh, you're so boring with your simple "misdirection" solutions :( (and he specifically said he didn't want to waste his resources on that).

Come on, more intriguish ways to help him must be found! Palpatine for President!

(having just finished the Cloaks of Deception novel, I kinda have a hard-on for galaxywide conspirations).

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

One thing to remember, that a ton of people forget, is they get detect evil as per the spell at will, except where it specifies differently. This means they have to go through all the verbal and somatic components each time they want to cast it on every object individually. (The paladins detect evil only selects 1 object in their) So from a roleplay perspective a paladin who is constantly detecting evil looks really stupid and can piss off A LOT of NPCs. Walking up to a random NPC and performing the casting of detect evil is a veritable slap in the face. For some reason people tend to think this is an ability that can just be used totally undetected without anybody noticing.

Contributor

Fortunately, your character is Lawful, so get him on the Law rather than the Goodness aspect, though question that too. If he says he detects Evil from you, freely admit that you are no angel but also that you never pretended to be otherwise, and state that all men have their virtues and their sins. If he admits that he is using a paladin's Detect Evil ability to Detect Evil from you, mention that this is an invasion of privacy, which is itself an evil act. Not the greatest of sins, certainly, but not the smallest either.

Ask the paladin if he had just cause to inspect your aura and moreover if he was doing so under some legal authority and if so which. Remind him that presumption of innocence is the cornerstone of justice (which is LG by another name) whereas presumption of guilt is the cornerstone of tyranny (LE) and ask him which of those two alignments he serves. Tell him the tale of the inquisitor who, in his zeal to find diabolic witches marked with the devil's mark, spied upon a group of virtuous maidens while they bathed, leading to their suicide and ruin, not to mention the inquisitor having his eyes struck out on the order of the Katapeshi judge, who wisely remarked that just as men who violate chastity should be made eunuchs so they can never sin that way again, just so should those who willfully violate modesty and peep into the privacy of the harem be made blind so they may never act on such temptation again.

Those who read auras without permission or even just cause? What would the wise Saranraen judge say about them?

Mention that justice is nothing, however, if it is not tempered by mercy, and magnanimously say that you will forgive him his trespass this once if he will swear by all that is holy that he will not violate your privacy so again.

If he presses you that you really have done something evil and wicked, tell him that your sins are your own, but the only one you will submit to be judged by is Lady Pharasma when you die. Mention--truthfully--that the paladin's shining example has been an inspiration to you, for when you were tempted to engage in wickedness (such as, for example, making undead, not that you specify this) you thought of how unhappy and disappointed this would make the paladin (not to mention psychotically smitey) and so thought better of it (which is perfectly true).

Basically, talk him around enough that he decides to take you on as a project to redeem a sinner while you work on him and see how long it takes you to get him to fall. After all, once he's an ex-paladin, he won't be quite so problematic and will likely end up a more tractable Lawful Neutral.

Liberty's Edge

Scipion del Ferro wrote:
One thing to remember, that a ton of people forget, is they get detect evil as per the spell at will, except where it specifies differently. This means they have to go through all the verbal and somatic components each time they want to cast it on every object individually. (The paladins detect evil only selects 1 object in their) So from a roleplay perspective a paladin who is constantly detecting evil looks really stupid and can piss off A LOT of NPCs. Walking up to a random NPC and performing the casting of detect evil is a veritable slap in the face. For some reason people tend to think this is an ability that can just be used totally undetected without anybody noticing.

Technically, it's a spell-like ability and spell-like abilities have no verbal component, somatic component, material component or focus unless noted otherwise. Rules lawyery I know. As a DM I always liked using the +5 DC to spellcraft to recognize for each component/focus missing (so instead of DC 16 it would be DC 31). That said, lots of NPCs would take this as a grave insult for sure if they realized what was going on (although some would be of the Mad-Eye Moody group and appreciate it even if it is a bit... hmmmmm... easily defended against).


stringburka wrote:

Oh, you're so boring with your simple "misdirection" solutions :( (and he specifically said he didn't want to waste his resources on that).

Come on, more intriguish ways to help him must be found! Palpatine for President!

(having just finished the Cloaks of Deception novel, I kinda have a hard-on for galaxywide conspirations).

While I agree, I also disagree (I'm oxymoron-ish like that). If you recall, Palpatine was actively hiding his presence as a Sith and blocking the investigations of the Jedi. He didn't just sit around going "Oh hai guys, I'm a Sith Lord, but like, I'm not doin' anything weird so I'm gonna just sit over here and assume power. We cool right? K'thanx bai." :P

Honestly, I'd say that if he wants to deal with it without expending resources, he should let the Paladin know that he's the new kid on the block, and if he wants to get violent, uppity, or cause problems for the guy who was in the group to begin with, he should take a hike. Let the player roll up a new character that doesn't step on the other pre-existing party members. If the Paladin wants to start a fight, seek the aid of the party, and if he still wants to start a fight, kill him in self defense. Or better yet, school him for all he is worth in the arts of asskickery, and then don't kill him, and let him live with knowing that a stranger whom he considers evil not only did more good than him in the world, but also showed more mercy and forgiveness than he could.


Ashiel wrote:
stringburka wrote:

Oh, you're so boring with your simple "misdirection" solutions :( (and he specifically said he didn't want to waste his resources on that).

Come on, more intriguish ways to help him must be found! Palpatine for President!

(having just finished the Cloaks of Deception novel, I kinda have a hard-on for galaxywide conspirations).

While I agree, I also disagree (I'm oxymoron-ish like that). If you recall, Palpatine was actively hiding his presence as a Sith and blocking the investigations of the Jedi. He didn't just sit around going "Oh hai guys, I'm a Sith Lord, but like, I'm not doin' anything weird so I'm gonna just sit over here and assume power. We cool right? K'thanx bai." :P

Oh, you misunderstood me! I'm all for misdirection, I was talking about the misdirection SPELL! The OP said he didn't want to commit his daily spells to casting misdirection all the time - that's why I propose mundane (or at least, other kinds of magic) misdirection that will permanently (or at least, for a while) prevent the paladin.

Palpatine's all about misdirection and playing the angles all the time. That's what I'm talking about - creating doubt of the paladin's abilities, or causing him to even fall due to his own trusting in his abilities.

Scipion del Ferro wrote:
One thing to remember, that a ton of people forget, is they get detect evil as per the spell at will, except where it specifies differently. This means they have to go through all the verbal and somatic components each time they want to cast it on every object individually.

This is untrue. It's a spell-like ability, and spell-like abilities do not have components. That's one of the specified differences. Still, he's standing there staring on the target or whatever - getting distracted enough to cause an attack of opportunity - so it's probably noticeable.

Scarab Sages

Provided he does not attack you when he detects your evilness but rather confronts you, explain to him, seemingly ashamed, that probably the magic you are researching to counter the (insert important evil part of your campaign here), taints your aura.

Explain to him the importance of the research.

Swear to him, you don't give in to the wickedness of that magic.

Then, this is the most important part, ask him, no, beg him to keep an eye on you and help you by confronting you if you ever act evil, harm an innocent etc., so you can seek redemption rather then to fall into darkness.


Buy a scroll of bestow curse.

Use this scroll on him while he's sleeping. No save.

The curse is that, whenever he uses his spell-like ability to detect evil, he registers everyone he detects as evil.

OR

The curse is that, whenever he uses his spell-like ability to detect evil, he begins to glow a very vibrant pink color.

OR

The curse is that, whenever he uses his spell-like ability to detect evil, loud brass fanfare plays, introducing a theme everyone recognizes from that one local musical as "Yo, This Guy is Totally Detecting Evil".

Grand Lodge

This pally sounds like one of those ones thats gonna smite first and ask questions later... so "reason" won't work with this one.

I think a short term investment in misdirection items and spells are your best bet while you set him up to fail.

OOC
You need to have a chin wag with him and the DM - advise that he's on a collision course with the party and is he willing to discuss just what he is trying to achieve with this style of play?

If he's a reasonable guy, set guidelines, OOC, about "acceptable" in game behavior.

As the GM what his intent is as well.

If the guy is gonna be a bit of a hardarse about it and the GM says I'm gonna let the chips fall as they may... then I suggest a multi pronged approach:

a) A multi-stage poison... you can eat/drink along with him. Dose the guy regulary. As long as he starts to pull his head in, no need to introduce him to the active component of the poison.

b) Set him up to smite/attack something innocent. If you can do it at the right time you can screw him doubly so... witnesses could result in legal consequences.

Do this a few times.

c) Make some investments in the Local Government and world of crime... Gifts for gifts sake. You may either need the law or a hit called out on this guy.

This may even help in finding (indirectly and anonymously) someone else to set the pally up.

d) Look for dirt/leverage - note that this sort of guy will fight when backed into a corner so blackmail won't help.

e) You could always bind something behind his back to do all sorts of things - including framing or murdering him. Invisible imps could also help here.

f) Get the rest of the party onside - odds are this guy is being a jerk to everyone. When the blades come out, you want them with you.


@Ice Titan
Why wouldn't the paladin get a save while sleeping?

To answer the OP:
Make sure he doesn't see you or get evidence that you are doing evil acts (and unfortunately that includes animating dead, but i guess that this would be a problem with any good character) and just blame your alingment on other things (many have stated good excuses) like past life that you are trying to atone for but you really need his help to get on the right track etc.

Or you know, you buff up your DCs, go dominate a couple of fighters, bind an outsider or two, animate 3 undead and have them confront the paladin while you are trying to make him fail his save for your SoS spell. Or do all of the above but instead of conforting him have all of those "attack" your group and you "save" the paladin's life, and "help" him in his fight against evil.

Dark Archive

The Crusader wrote:
However, the second he joined our group in-game, he detected evil. Then did so again as soon as we awoke the next day.

What, because people turn evil in their sleep? Sounds less like 'player playing a Paladin' and more like 'player looking to start up some PVP action, and looking for an excuse.'

If you otherwise like gaming with this group, just play something else, rather than play into whatever fantasies the guy is setting up. There's a ton of fun spells that don't have an [evil] tag.

Heck, as long as there's one in the party, and he's meta-gaming anyway (knowing OOC that your character is evil, and constantly checking to see if he 'detects yet'), write up your own Paladin. In a party that's already restricted by one player's code, and being strictly policed by daily inspections for moral purity, loyalty to ze partee and / or a high-riding burka that accidentally lets slip a tantalizing and scandalous view of one's ankles, might as well go all-out and play one, too. Mechanically, it's not a bad class. Play it with the personality of Sterling Archer (bonus points if you can do the voice), and it's even more fun. :)

Having your character attack his character is never a good idea, even if his character attacking your character is his entire raison d'etre.

A) such things should be settled out of game
B) such things often seem to lead to a cycle of retribution that carries over to new characters
C) such things force other players to 'pick sides' and cause tension and / or animosity between friends
D) your character could die (whereas, if he retires and you bring in something more compatible, you can pick him up again later, if the paladin ends up dying during the course of game play)
E) even if your invisible imp sows poisoned caltrops around his bedroll while he's sleeping, and then steals his weapon, and you wake him up with a combination of tanglefoot bags and summoned swarms devouring him alive, the GM already seems to be favoring him, so you'll probably just end up even more frustrated with the circumstances


The Crusader wrote:


Recently, a player has rejoined our group after a several-week hiatus (a combination of character death and National Guard service), and dropped a Paladin on us.

There's your problem. The DM knows what character you play and doesn't say, hey, this probably won't work in this party and doesn't have a talk at the table about how to handle this?

The DM is how you handle the Geiger Paladin problem.


leo1925 wrote:

@Ice Titan

Why wouldn't the paladin get a save while sleeping?

To answer the OP:
Make sure he doesn't see you or get evidence that you are doing evil acts (and unfortunately that includes animating dead, but i guess that this would be a problem with any good character) and just blame your alingment on other things (many have stated good excuses) like past life that you are trying to atone for but you really need his help to get on the right track etc.

Or you know, you buff up your DCs, go dominate a couple of fighters, bind an outsider or two, animate 3 undead and have them confront the paladin while you are trying to make him fail his save for your SoS spell. Or do all of the above but instead of conforting him have all of those "attack" your group and you "save" the paladin's life, and "help" him in his fight against evil.

Because unconscious targets are considered willing targets for spells.

Dark Archive

roguerouge wrote:
The Crusader wrote:


Recently, a player has rejoined our group after a several-week hiatus (a combination of character death and National Guard service), and dropped a Paladin on us.

There's your problem. The DM knows what character you play and doesn't say, hey, this probably won't work in this party and doesn't have a talk at the table about how to handle this?

The DM is how you handle the Geiger Paladin problem.

Since the GM did allow it, the GM possibly;

1) didn't think it would be a problem
2) is uncomfortable with the evil character's behavior or abilities, and is trying to retroactively 'fix it in-game'
3) totally digs inter-party conflict, like one guy who GMed for us at the gaming store who boasted, 'I don't even have to prepare an adventure, just let the players pick fights with each other!'

I'm a fan of the 'never attribute to malice...' school of thought, so I'd be inclined to go with 1 or 2.

It would definitely be useful to ask the GM if #2 is the answer, because if he's uncomfortable with the evil character, but didn't feel like out-of-game approaching the player and saying, 'dude, retire him and play something a little more PG-13,' that's yet another vote against PVP, since the GM will default be on the side of the Paladin, whom he sees as an in-game 'solution' to the 'problem' of the evil character.


The passive aggressive way is to memorize bad spells for the next encounter and, when the other players complain, point out that your NECROMANCER can no longer memorize most of the schools from his school due to the presence of the new player. The added benefit is that throwing a combat in this manner might get the paladin killed and solve the problem for you.

The aggressive way is to command a bunch of undead and say that if he has a problem with it, he can duel with you and your cohorts right now.

I don't particularly recommend either of these approaches, but I don't think shenanigans and misdirection's really going to work for long.

Sovereign Court

First of all, if the GM has a problem with the necromancer, he should adress it, not allow inter party conflict because he is too much of a wuss to actualy not say anything in the face of the player. Just wrong.

Plus the dude playing the paladin is obviously doing that to screw with the necromancer...that is jerk behavior. Plus if he ever attacks the necromancer, he will have the entire party to content with. Since the necromancer is friends with them much more then the paladin.

Grand Lodge

With a high enough bluff you could try convincing him that you aren't evil and using the undead you raise to help you fight evil. The whole using my enemy's weapon against him and greater good stuff. If he doesn't buy this, INSIST on selling every weapon you loot from anything that's evil.

Silver Crusade

The solution is to trick him into losing his paladin powers.

1) Buy poison.

2) pretend to make an elixer of smiting which lets him smite evil an extra time per day when put on a weapon. (Do you have craft wondrous items--no? who cares pretend to buy it)

3) Give the "elixer" (actually the poison) to the Paladin.

4) Watch him lose his powers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Austin Morgan wrote:

I feel your pain: I've got a LN Chelaxian Wizard, who's Neutral due to more of an "overall average" of her actions. While she has no desires to hurt innocents, she's just as happy sacrificing them for a Planar Binding-type spell, as saving the world from the BBEG.

Really, she just doesn't care about that section of her alignment: She's Lawful to a fault... and that's about as far as her alignment concerns her.

Anywho, recently she picked up that aforementioned Planar Binding spell of the Greater version, and our Stupid Good Paladin had something to say about it: Bind anything Good, I'll kill you. Bind anything Evil, I'll kill you....

Thing is you're the established and he's the newcomer. If you've been working your party right the response should come as a chorus. "Touch a hair on his head holy boy, and you'll be meeting your god sooner than you thought.." Odds are he'll either be making a new character or entering a new career as a fighter without training or bonus feats.

In other words, the thing is either you and your party gang up on him and put him in his place right then and there. (that doesn't mean kill him, just show him that you're not to be brushed aside) or one of you is going to have to leave.


Revel wrote:

First the spells Misdirection (2nd level), Nondetection (3rd level), & Mindblank (8th level) are one’s you’ll want to have as they become available and if you can get 1 permanently placed on an item that you wear even better.

Second determine how you are going to handle things if or when your cover is blown. Detecting as evil isn’t really enough to start a fight. Personally I’d ask him if he was sure he was doing it right and shrug if he insisted I was evil. Then I’d probably say something along the lines of, “Ok, maybe I’m a selfish bastard I never claimed I was an angel, I’m still doing good right? Are you saying I should stop?”

It may cause some intra-party tension but then again it could be fun to role-play, maybe you could get him to get stuck on the idea that you could be converted to good. After all you are law abiding and are go on adventurers where you presumably are helping people. Meanwhile you can try and work out a better way to conceal your evil nature for example make a spell that makes your alignment read as neutral rather then evil. Maybe he’ll even pat himself on the back for a job well done xP

This is good advice. "Smite" is not the only paladin answer to evil. "Redemption" should be the first option, and when that fails, then the smite. Play this angle. Always make it seem that you are a reasonable person, trying to be a good person. Playing the martyr also helps. Using the tools of enemy against them, paying the cost with your soul so others don't have to. They eat that stuff up. Show some remorse and angst

Sovereign Court

karkon wrote:

The solution is to trick him into losing his paladin powers.

1) Buy poison.

2) pretend to make an elixer of smiting which lets him smite evil an extra time per day when put on a weapon. (Do you have craft wondrous items--no? who cares pretend to buy it)

3) Give the "elixer" (actually the poison) to the Paladin.

4) Watch him lose his powers.

He won't. He unwittingly used poison, not knowing that it is poison...i'm sure a deity would not strip him of his powers for it. And any paladin worth his salt would cast a multitude of detect spells on that elixir if given to him by a suspicious character.


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Kill the paladin in his sleep then animate his as a zombie while no one is looking. They wont notice he's dead until he starts to smell.

"thank gods the paladin finally shut up" etc

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Basically, talk him around enough that he decides to take you on as a project to redeem a sinner while you work on him and see how long it takes you to get him to fall. After all, once he's an ex-paladin, he won't be quite so problematic and will likely end up a more tractable Lawful Neutral.

Thank you, this made me laugh out loud.

As to the Paladin/Player, part of the *fun* of LE is using the law against him. Ask him what crime you've committed, who appointed him judge/jury executioner, etc. Bug him for last rites for *everything* he kills, make him donate to the needy, etc. Volunteer him for things "Why yes, madam, if your doxies can withstand the lectures on virtue, I'm sure my holy companion will use his mercies to cure disease, for no charge." etc. Bascially, if he wants to play an aspect of the paladin to make your life difficult, use the class to make his life difficult.

At the same time, you should sacrifice *some* resources for your own good. Donate to some orphanages, offer to use your (non-icky) spells to help a community, etc. If the townsfolk love you, it doesn't matter how much of an evil bastard you really are. I was able to do this with Shadrach, taking short term risks, to allow me to (literally) get away with murder later.

Spoiler:
In Mad God's Key, my LE character paid to have the group of thieves healed. He gained loyal followers as a result and started building his network. Later in the game a couple of players were worried about me taking Thrallherd prestige class and warping minds. The DM said "Why are you worried about that? You let him build an orphanage! He has a dozen young minds to shape and mold w/o psionics!"


Hitokiriweasel wrote:
With a high enough bluff you could try convincing him that you aren't evil and using the undead you raise to help you fight evil. The whole using my enemy's weapon against him and greater good stuff. If he doesn't buy this, INSIST on selling every weapon you loot from anything that's evil.

I am sorry but this can't work unless the DM house rules it.

Casting animate dead is an evil act and more so making undead is a very very evil act. Yes you could probably can get away with casting an evil spell in general (let's say summon monster) but creating undead is much more evil.
I know that my LG ranger wouldn't buy the whole making undead to fight undead thing but would surely eat the binding a demon to fight evil.

Silver Crusade

Hama wrote:
karkon wrote:

The solution is to trick him into losing his paladin powers.

1) Buy poison.

2) pretend to make an elixer of smiting which lets him smite evil an extra time per day when put on a weapon. (Do you have craft wondrous items--no? who cares pretend to buy it)

3) Give the "elixer" (actually the poison) to the Paladin.

4) Watch him lose his powers.

He won't. He unwittingly used poison, not knowing that it is poison...i'm sure a deity would not strip him of his powers for it. And any paladin worth his salt would cast a multitude of detect spells on that elixir if given to him by a suspicious character.

The paladin's code says nothing about "unwittingly". Many myths (real world) talk about heros tricked into breaking their word or code and then paying for it. LG gods can be surprisingly strict. After all that is what he gets for hanging around evil people.

Using compulsion spells and a few buffs to make an innocent orphan attack the paladin with a poisoned dagger might make for interesting results.

To be honest I think the player needs to talk with the DM and the Paladin player. Sort this out. If the DM wanted to dial back the evil I would request being allowed to remake my character somewhat. If the player is worried about losing his paladin status then I would find out the DM's view on this. I am sure a solution can be reached.

I am not in favor of letting players have evil characters because it usually leads to trouble. (as above). If every PC is evil it can work with a mature group but otherwise will usually lead to disaster.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The solution should obviously be to talk to the GM and him outside of the game. A lot of the "solutions" offered by the others here will result in the other player getting screwed over or in you initiating inter-party PvP.


Austin Morgan wrote:
Anywho, recently she picked up that aforementioned Planar Binding spell of the Greater version, and our Stupid Good Paladin had something to say about it: Bind anything Good, I'll kill you. Bind anything Evil, I'll kill you....

Are you sure that you're not missing an "anti-" when you wrote "paladin"? :-)

Liberty's Edge

hogarth wrote:
Austin Morgan wrote:
Anywho, recently she picked up that aforementioned Planar Binding spell of the Greater version, and our Stupid Good Paladin had something to say about it: Bind anything Good, I'll kill you. Bind anything Evil, I'll kill you....
Are you sure that you're not missing an "anti-" when you wrote "paladin"? :-)

Haha ya know, this is his fourth character for this game, and it's his first that doesn't worship Rovagug or Lamashtu. It's very... chaotic... for a LG character :P


MDT's GM rule #12.

NO MIXING OF GOOD/EVIL IN THE SAME PARTY.


Take plenty of ranks of Bluff as soon as possible. Roleplay your character with a child-like ignorance about good and evil, and especially religion. Profess an interest in the Paladin's faith, and when he tries to explain it to you, be like the annoying child asking "why?" constantly, but use Bluff and explain that your character is actually very earnest about these questions. He's not trying to be annoying; he really wants to know the answers to everything he's asking.

The explanations for everything (good/evil axis, gods, specific religions, etc.) will take a long time this way. Once you develop an evil aura, act horrified when the Paladin tells you that you're evil. Beg him to teach you about the evil acts he's witnessed (if you've played cleverly, he won't have witnessed any).

Any time there's significant downtime in game, concoct a reason to separate yourself from the Paladin, so he won't have extensive time to preach. Basically, you only want to give him time to do so while out adventuring. And don't forget, your character just doesn't have a good mind for these topics, and he keeps forgetting details, details which he just has to have reiterated.

In combat, unless the Paladin has ranks of Spellcraft, he's not going to know it's you summoning undead. All he knows is that you're waving your arms, chanting spells. Mix other spells in and he'll never know its you. Unless he's focusing on you with detect evil when you cast an evil spell, he won't know any better.

If he does catch you, then you can profess innocence about undead being evil. "But how are they evil? They've been helping us fight the bad guys and do good!" This will lead into another long discussion about the nature of good and evil, one in which you might be able to trick him into admitting that since the undead are helping you, it's a lesser evil than what you're fighting against, and hence, tolerable.

The key to this whole idea is to keep up the guileless innocence act. If you can pull it off, it'd be pretty awesome. But it will probably take the out-of-game cooperation of the GM and the Paladin player.


The Crusader wrote:


The situation is this: In my current campaign, I'm playing a LE Dhampir Necromancy Specialist Wizard. The "E" in his alignment is mostly because he dabbles (well, completely delves into) the foulest magic he can find, in pursuit of his own ends. Otherwise, he's not really a "bad guy". He's fairly charming, obeys the law, has never once harmed an innocent, etc...

Not a bad guy, only evil, eh?

Depending on where you are, doing stuff with corpses other than burying them can be quite illegal.

The Crusader wrote:


However, the second he joined our group in-game, he detected evil. Then did so again as soon as we awoke the next day. Then every person, plant, and gazebo we passed throughout the session.

Well, he does need to monitor his fellow party members, as he can't just associate with evil.

The rest is paranoid, though.

The Crusader wrote:


Fortunately, as we are only Level 4, and I'm not a Cleric, he couldn't get a read on me, but that only buys me the rest of this level (1 or 2 more game sessions). I pretty much already lost the ability to summon undead (without starting a feud with his character), and I really don't want to have to waste my limited resources hiding my alignment every single day. How do you rein in the Geiger-Paladins?

Well, do nothing. Let the problem fix itself:

You gain another level, detect as evil. As long as you don't break any laws (creating undead might not be illegal where you are, and other magic might be foul, but there isn't necessarily a law against that), the only thing he can do is ask you to leave, and when you don't do that, either he sucks it up and decides it is for the greater good to stick with the party, or he goes away.

Because if he attacks you just for being evil, he is breaking the law. He probably loses his powers - at least he should.

And since he is the latest joiner, the player can't even complain about your character. It's him who made that paladin.


KaeYoss wrote:


And since he is the latest joiner, the player can't even complain about your character. It's him who made that paladin.

Exactly, rule 12 situation.


In a campaign I previously ran, we had a similar problem. An evil necromancer causing all kinds of trouble.

Some fantastic advice has already been posted that'll help you survive for awhile, especially some of the devil's advocate role playing solutions. That said, these (and any) solutions are only temporary at best. Hell, even with misdirection spells it's only a matter of time before either you slip up or he figures it out (because you're a god forsaken necromancer, and presumably you'd actually like to use your undead minions at some point).

That being said, they only need to work well until you get to a certain level. Let me ask a simple question: in the world in which you're playing, how many powerful mages actually exist? If it's like most campaign worlds, there are only a handful of truly powerful archmages in existence, a fact that's overlooked by most parties because they're so used to having one or two in tow.

The importance is that once you hit a high enough level you can get away with a much wider variety of questionable deeds simply because the group can't afford to stop you. Once you get to an appropriate level of power, politely remind the paladin that he's not likely to ever have the aid of another archmage again, and that he had best learn to tolerate a few eccentricities if he would like that aid to continue. Make it abundantly clear that you will help stop the BBEG and save the world but *only* if the paladin stops trying to smite your evil every time you raise a corpse.

It's a solution that makes sense to me, and once you've implemented it you can stop being secretive about your actions (to a point). The aforementioned necromancer had his troupe of undead marching with the rest of the army, who put up with it because they really needed the party's help and the party really needed his. The downside? The necromancer betrayed the party in the campaign's final battle.

Bear in mind that this is a tip for the future, but keep it in your pocket nevertheless. It's also an appropriate solution for the gentleman who spoke earlier of his chapter of the Planar Binding Police.


Is there a reason you can not change your alignment to lawful neutral?


Uchawi wrote:
Is there a reason you can not change your alignment to lawful neutral?

A) Because his character isn't?

B) Because he doesn't want to change his character?

C) Because the new character is the problem, not the existing character?


mdt wrote:

MDT's GM rule #12.

NO MIXING OF GOOD/EVIL IN THE SAME PARTY.

Mixing good and evil isn't too bad if the good guys are stupid and the evil guys are badass. As the evil dude though, the onus is on you to be ever ready to wipe the slate of your party clean... (50% joking)

But yeah, if the new character is messing things up then the new character is the one that has to change. Otherwise I like the misdirection(picking my socks) and wearing lead boots. Just never take your shoes off. Wonder how that would work if you animated a skeleton and used misdirection on them... Would he be ok attacking a apparently non evil skeleton?

Though misdirection is unlikely to work on a paladin since he gets a saving throw. Well perhaps this paladin used charisma as a dump stat...


Have an out of character discussion with that player. Ask him this: "If you're using your class abilities on me, does that mean I get to use my class abilities on you?"

We had a situation in a gaming group where the wizard took offense at what another PC was doing. When the other PC was asleep, he cast Geas on him to prevent the offensive action. At that point, out of character, I pointed out that since the wizard was casting spells on the one character (using class abilities) did that mean the other character could use his class abilities (like Base Attack Bonus) on the wizard and that would be considered okay by the group?

Have a discussion with the group, including the GM. Some questions to figure out:

Will traveling (associating) with you violate the paladin's code?
Does the group want intra-party combat?
Does everyone want to roleplay this out?

If you tell this other player that your character is evil out of game, and he immediately uses this knowledge in game, tell him how that would make you feel. Then point out, that you could do the same thing, make a character specifically to ruin his current character (a thief who steals all his gear in the middle of the night, buries it and has a high enough bluff and will save to get away with it and do it every time the paladin replaces his stuff). This shouldn't be an arms race to see who can ruin the other's character faster, but rather an opportunity for both of you to highlight aspects about each other.

Also, in my group, we've always considered the act of Detect Evil to be somewhat obvious, ie, a simple DC 10 Sense Motive would tell you what the paladin is doing. The act of walking up to people and using Detect Evil on them in polite society would be considered extremely rude and disrespectful, to the point that it's essentially like accusing someone of a crime. It's something that's used during criminal investigations and combat.

Contributor

Irontruth wrote:

Have an out of character discussion with that player. Ask him this: "If you're using your class abilities on me, does that mean I get to use my class abilities on you?"

We had a situation in a gaming group where the wizard took offense at what another PC was doing. When the other PC was asleep, he cast Geas on him to prevent the offensive action. At that point, out of character, I pointed out that since the wizard was casting spells on the one character (using class abilities) did that mean the other character could use his class abilities (like Base Attack Bonus) on the wizard and that would be considered okay by the group?

Have a discussion with the group, including the GM. Some questions to figure out:

Will traveling (associating) with you violate the paladin's code?
Does the group want intra-party combat?
Does everyone want to roleplay this out?

If you tell this other player that your character is evil out of game, and he immediately uses this knowledge in game, tell him how that would make you feel. Then point out, that you could do the same thing, make a character specifically to ruin his current character (a thief who steals all his gear in the middle of the night, buries it and has a high enough bluff and will save to get away with it and do it every time the paladin replaces his stuff). This shouldn't be an arms race to see who can ruin the other's character faster, but rather an opportunity for both of you to highlight aspects about each other.

Also, in my group, we've always considered the act of Detect Evil to be somewhat obvious, ie, a simple DC 10 Sense Motive would tell you what the paladin is doing. The act of walking up to people and using Detect Evil on them in polite society would be considered extremely rude and disrespectful, to the point that it's essentially like accusing someone of a crime. It's something that's used during criminal investigations and combat.

A LARP I've played in has a very wise rule for character creation called the "Inigo Montoya" rule. Specifically, if someone's character kills your character, you may not bring in a new character designed to avenge that character, either as an explicit heir or some such who says that's what they're there for or as an implicit act, designing a character who is specifically designed to take advantage of a character's weaknesses and foibles.

Also, it should be stressed, that you should never have one character's taboos mix with another character's character traits. I played in a Champions game once where my character, along with some super powers and stellar virtues, had a problem of being a junkie, made more problematic because his super power let him reach into his pocket and pull out anything that had ever been lost, and honestly, there have been a lot of drug stashes lost over the years. The other characters in the game, created independently, had as their fatal flaws an intollerance of drug dealers. My character was not a drug dealer, but was a potential endless supply of illegal substances.

There was a lot of inter-party conflict about this, but eventually I found a way to radiation accident my character so that he fit with the rest of the group. (He was left in fairyland at the end of one session, so after I was out of game for a couple weeks due to conventions, I had him come back having spent spent seven years there, having gotten addicted to goblin fruit, then kicking that habit, and swapping over his disadvantage to being a dependent NPC who was also his fairy bride.)

Depending on how a paladin is played, either he needs to become an ex-paladin or the party needs to become more virtuous. Or the band needs to break up, because it isn't working.

Or you can roleplay the conflicts but have the characters be sane. I'd recommend reading Roger Zelazny's Dilvish the Damned and The Changing Land to get an example of how to deal with good and evil in the same party, including black magicians who are still somewhat okay guys.

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