Taking down Treerazer

[wraithstrike]

Ninjaiguana wrote:

Cartigan appears to have the right of it. Imbue arrow says:

'When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster.'

OK, so you fire the arrow at Treerazer and hit. As per the rules on ammunition, the arrow is destroyed, and triggers an anti-magic field radiating from the point where you struck Treerazer. Then Treerazer rolls Spellcraft goes 'Oho, I see what you did there' and moves out of the area of effect. Job done.

From your reading, you seem to believe that the spell follows Treerazer around, but there's nothing in the ability to support that. The spell's area is 'centered where the arrow lands'. There's no extra line saying
'Oh, and if the arrow lands in a creature, I guess that spell radiates from that creature for its total duration, or something. Yeah, that sounds good.'

The creature is where the arrow landed though. It did not break/land on a point in space. I don't like tagging things with antimagic fields, but the rules do seem to support it. I don't like the idea of spells with a target of "you" being placed on the arrow to be more specific. The list of such spells is so small that it seems they went out of the way to make this work.

[Jadeite]

Matthew Morris wrote:

A Word Casting Magus using borrow time?

*ducks*

A Word Casting Sorcerer using Borrow Time with a boosted Select Target Word. And three paladins.

[tlc_web tlc_web]

I would probably go with:
--Cleric 4, Wizard 6, Mystic Theurge 10
--Fighter 18/Barbarian 2
--2x Rogue 18/Bararian 2

The mystic theurge basically buffs up the party (if allowed he creates magic items on the cheap for the party) and they attack Treerazor. Because he is huge, on fighter can act as flank buddy for both rogue.
Meanwhile at safe distance the mystic theurge helps his friends and picks off the support demons.

One thing I definately would try is is using a Wish from a scroll to put a specialized antimagic fiend around my friends that does not effect their gear or active magic effects. Some STs would allow this and others would not. That would force him to stay in the fight and take away his nasty spell powers. I would also make sure my engagers had combat reflexes. That way if he tried to run mundanely he would get a whole bunch of attacks.

[Treerazer]

And the name's TreerazEr, not Treerazor.

I destroy (aka "raze") trees. I don't shave them.

[Jason Nelson]

Artifacts are exempt from AMF, so his axe still works.

There may also be an interesting quirk of the action of the spell.

AMF is a 10' r. He's a 15' cubic creature.

Imbue arrow is centered "where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster."

That means that, unlike a caster using AMF on himself, an AMF through an imbue arrow does *NOT* need to be "centered on the caster." More to the point, it is not centered on the centerpoint of the creature you strike.

AMF must be centered on you if you cast it on yourself. Once you imbue it, that rule goes out the window, because the imbue arrow rule is a specific exception to spells you would center on yourself, and it stipulates exactly where the new spell is centered: not on the center of a creature you hit, but where the arrow lands (the exterior of a creature).

Where does the arrow land? The center point of the creature? Not likely; that is going to be INSIDE the creature. For the spell to be centered there would require the spell to be centered somewhere other than where the arrow lands, which is not what imbue arrow does. It doesn't hit and then push the effect somewhere else. It says what it does and it does what it says. Where does the arrow land in PF's abstract combat system? The arrow lands on one of the creature's exterior facings, presumably one of his 9 facing squares (3 x 3 vertical) on the side facing the archer.

Now, AMF *does* say that it moves with you, so Treerazer can't get away from it. He also can't dismiss it, because he's not the caster.

However, since the centerpoint is on his external facing, that means that only 2/3 of him (more or less) is actually INSIDE the AMF. The rest of him is outside. Which means he can use any and all of his abilities just fine. The AMF blocks line of effect on one side of him, so you'd have to adjudicate that for the rest of the battle, making sure to void any effects that passed through the AMF.

It would presumably stop him from teleporting, since he couldn't affect the part of himself still inside the AMF. Otherwise, though, he's home free.

Unless you have another couple of AMF-imbued arrows and can make sure to cover his full volume with none of his parts peeking out.

Have fun!

[james maissen]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Treerazer is, according to James Jacobs, the single worst thing currently walking around on the surface of Golarion. There are gods and demons, but they don't hang out here regularly. There's that Havero under the temple in the Cinderlands, but it's stuck in one place. There's Tar-Baphon, but he's still sleeping. No, Treerazer, CR 25, is about as bad as it gets.

Can we take him down?

In this corner: Party of four 20th level PCs, fully loaded.

First, it depends up the party of 4...

Second, a few things:

You don't dim anchor him.. you forbid the area he's in. It has a 6 round casting time, so you are in the earth casting a silenced version of it. You pop the karma bead (or other CL enhancing items) so that your CL is above 20, thus he can't dispel it (special rules on forbid).

Once that's done this will shut down the teleporting and the summoning as well as his silly axe from coming back to him.

Now you just gack him easy enough as he's not that tough... for 20th level PCs that are optimized.

I would suggest a few rings of counterspells with greater dispel in them, a readied wall of suppression (9th level spell) will shut down a good number of his abilities (all of his constant ones, sadly not his silly axe as it's an 'artifact') and could get his 'time stop' spell if timed right.

But really your pair of optimized mobility fighters then fly over to him and full attack which likely slaughters him outright.

How's that sound for you? Party of 4: cleric/oracle, wizard/sorcerer and 2 fighters. Starting the combat earth gliding and coming out to play.

It's assuming that you can track him down and get the jump on him, but that actually sounds reasonable from the description as well as the level of the group in question here.

-James

[Sylvanite]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Artifacts are exempt from AMF, so his axe still works.

There may also be an interesting quirk of the action of the spell.

AMF is a 10' r. He's a 15' cubic creature.

Imbue arrow is centered "where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster."

That means that, unlike a caster using AMF on himself, an AMF through an imbue arrow does *NOT* need to be "centered on the caster." More to the point, it is not centered on the centerpoint of the creature you strike.

AMF must be centered on you if you cast it on yourself. Once you imbue it, that rule goes out the window, because the imbue arrow rule is a specific exception to spells you would center on yourself, and it stipulates exactly where the new spell is centered: not on the center of a creature you hit, but where the arrow lands (the exterior of a creature).

Where does the arrow land? The center point of the creature? Not likely; that is going to be INSIDE the creature. For the spell to be centered there would require the spell to be centered somewhere other than where the arrow lands, which is not what imbue arrow does. It doesn't hit and then push the effect somewhere else. It says what it does and it does what it says. Where does the arrow land in PF's abstract combat system? The arrow lands on one of the creature's exterior facings, presumably one of his 9 facing squares (3 x 3 vertical) on the side facing the archer.

Now, AMF *does* say that it moves with you, so Treerazer can't get away from it. He also can't dismiss it, because he's not the caster.

However, since the centerpoint is on his external facing, that means that only 2/3 of him (more or less) is actually INSIDE the AMF. The rest of him is outside. Which means he can use any and all of his abilities just fine. The AMF blocks line of effect on one side of him, so you'd have to adjudicate that for the rest of the battle, making sure to void any effects that passed through the AMF.

It would presumably stop him...

Did I really forget to mention I was using a Widened AMF imbued arrow? I'm so silly...:p

[James Jacobs]

Honestly, if someone did something like this in my game, I'd likely rule that the antimagic field would be centered on the arrow, not the creature it struck. So as a standard action, the thing hit by the arrow could remove the arrow and toss it away. Alternatively, I'd give the creature struck a flat-out saving throw against the effect (even though the spell itself says "no save").

Imbuing antimagic fields onto an arrow is a really interesting and fun way to use the spell, but it's not the way antimagic field was meant to be used. As such, the GM is perfectly in his right to adjust things as needed to cope with this new situation.

Turn it around. Would you as a player appreciate having the GM use this tactic against you? Without giving you ANY real way to avoid the fate? I doubt it.

The game is more complex than its rules can ever cover, and that's why having a GM who's willing to adjudicate cases like this is so important and crucial.

(Jason Nelson's interpretation is also pretty spot on, in my book—although I'd still say that the creature struck by the arrow would either get a Will save or could toss the arrow away.)

And frankly, if Treerazer took a round's worth of actions to "undo" an arrow trick like this... that's still a SIGNIFICANT victory for the round. You might not cripple him for the entire fight, but making him give up an offensive action to do a bit of recovery gives your party a whole round to act against him. That's far from insignificant.

[wraithstrike]

tlc_web tlc_web wrote:

I would probably go with:

--Cleric 4, Wizard 6, Mystic Theurge 10
--Fighter 18/Barbarian 2
--2x Rogue 18/Bararian 2

The mystic theurge basically buffs up the party (if allowed he creates magic items on the cheap for the party) and they attack Treerazor. Because he is huge, on fighter can act as flank buddy for both rogue.
Meanwhile at safe distance the mystic theurge helps his friends and picks off the support demons.

One thing I definately would try is is using a Wish from a scroll to put a specialized antimagic fiend around my friends that does not effect their gear or active magic effects. Some STs would allow this and others would not. That would force him to stay in the fight and take away his nasty spell powers. I would also make sure my engagers had combat reflexes. That way if he tried to run mundanely he would get a whole bunch of attacks.

Casting a mass antimagic spell with the selective metamagic feat is probably a bit much even for wish though.

A mass antimagic field spell(if the spell existed) is probably worth at least an 8th level slot. The selective metamagic feat which only allows for instanteous AoE's is a +1 so if you allow it to apply to all AoE's it is worth at least a +2. At best it is worth an 10th level slot, and is would be probably higher than that.

[wraithstrike]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Artifacts are exempt from AMF, so his axe still works.

There may also be an interesting quirk of the action of the spell.

AMF is a 10' r. He's a 15' cubic creature.

Imbue arrow is centered "where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster."

That means that, unlike a caster using AMF on himself, an AMF through an imbue arrow does *NOT* need to be "centered on the caster." More to the point, it is not centered on the centerpoint of the creature you strike.

AMF must be centered on you if you cast it on yourself. Once you imbue it, that rule goes out the window, because the imbue arrow rule is a specific exception to spells you would center on yourself, and it stipulates exactly where the new spell is centered: not on the center of a creature you hit, but where the arrow lands (the exterior of a creature).

Where does the arrow land? The center point of the creature? Not likely; that is going to be INSIDE the creature. For the spell to be centered there would require the spell to be centered somewhere other than where the arrow lands, which is not what imbue arrow does. It doesn't hit and then push the effect somewhere else. It says what it does and it does what it says. Where does the arrow land in PF's abstract combat system? The arrow lands on one of the creature's exterior facings, presumably one of his 9 facing squares (3 x 3 vertical) on the side facing the archer.

Now, AMF *does* say that it moves with you, so Treerazer can't get away from it. He also can't dismiss it, because he's not the caster.

However, since the centerpoint is on his external facing, that means that only 2/3 of him (more or less) is actually INSIDE the AMF. The rest of him is outside. Which means he can use any and all of his abilities just fine. The AMF blocks line of effect on one side of him, so you'd have to adjudicate that for the rest of the battle, making sure to void any effects that passed through the AMF.

It would presumably stop him...

Good points.

[Sylvanite]

James Jacobs wrote:

Honestly, if someone did something like this in my game, I'd likely rule that the antimagic field would be centered on the arrow, not the creature it struck. So as a standard action, the thing hit by the arrow could remove the arrow and toss it away. Alternatively, I'd give the creature struck a flat-out saving throw against the effect (even though the spell itself says "no save").

Imbuing antimagic fields onto an arrow is a really interesting and fun way to use the spell, but it's not the way antimagic field was meant to be used. As such, the GM is perfectly in his right to adjust things as needed to cope with this new situation.

Turn it around. Would you as a player appreciate having the GM use this tactic against you? Without giving you ANY real way to avoid the fate? I doubt it.

The game is more complex than its rules can ever cover, and that's why having a GM who's willing to adjudicate cases like this is so important and crucial.

(Jason Nelson's interpretation is also pretty spot on, in my book—although I'd still say that the creature struck by the arrow would either get a Will save or could toss the arrow away.)

And frankly, if Treerazer took a round's worth of actions to "undo" an arrow trick like this... that's still a SIGNIFICANT victory for the round. You might not cripple him for the entire fight, but making him give up an offensive action to do a bit of recovery gives your party a whole round to act against him. That's far from insignificant.

Thanks for the advice, James. I agree with you about the fact that it's certainly a tough adjudication for the GM, as it can really hose a BBEG if played the way the RAW seems to suggest and would DEFINITELY not be fun to have tagged on your character.

The weird part about all of this is that this trick has been around since early 3.5 or even 3.0...and I've never seen an argument about it before. It gets brought up and referenced all the time as one of the few tricks that makes Arcane Archer levels really worthwhile...and when I actually suggest it to take down a mini-god demondino the world blows up...heh. Oh well.

[Mojorat]

several of the posts suggest people do not understand how emanations work. the amf would emanate from a point. not the center of treerazor. given his size at least 1/3 of him won't be I'n the amf.

[Sylvanite]

Mojorat wrote:

several of the posts suggest people do not understand how emanations work. the amf would emanate from a point. not the center of treerazor. given his size at least 1/3 of him won't be I'n the amf.

Like I said a couple posts ago, I was silly to forget to mention I was using a Widened AMF through Imbue Arrow. I'm just forgetful sometimes :p

[cibet44]

Jason Nelson wrote:

Imbue arrow is centered "where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster."

Where does the arrow land? The center point of the creature?

Actually if you look at Imbue Arrow it says "When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster."

This is the only mention of an arrow that "lands" not one that "targets" something.

Look at the other Arcane Archer abilities:

"Seeker Arrow (Sp): At 4th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow at a target "

"Phase Arrow (Sp): At 6th level, an arcane archer can launch an arrow once per day at a target"

"Hail of Arrows (Sp): In lieu of his regular attacks, once per day an arcane archer of 8th level or higher can fire an arrow at each and every target"

"Arrow of Death (Sp): At 10th level, an arcane archer can create a special type of slaying arrow that forces the target"

Imbue arrow has no target. An imbued arrow must land in a space. It can't be used to target a creature. That's why you don't have to worry about the arrow breaking as is argued about above.

This is how we have always interpreted this ability in 3.5 (we would fire it a creatures feet, not actually try to hit the creature). In PF what is confusing the issue is the addition of the text "If the arrow misses, the spell is wasted." This text does not exist in the 3.5 version of the ability. This text gives the impression that you can fire an Imbued Arrow at a creature when in fact you can't. This text should be omitted or changed to "If the arrow does not land, the spell is wasted."

If you do target a creature with it I would rule that you strike the target (according to the hit roll) and the arrow does it's normal arrow and bow damage then the arrow is destroyed. Since it never lands the imbued effect is wasted. Or (if you were a generous DM) you could rule it is dislodged from the creature after it hits and lands in that creatures space where the Imbued effect takes place. The arrow stays in that space unless something moves it.

[KaeYoss]

james maissen wrote:

You don't dim anchor him.. you forbid the area he's in. It has a 6 round casting time, so you are in the earth casting a silenced version of it

You still need to get close enough. This guy isn't a lone wolf. He's the near-divine leader of a nation of demons.

Don't count on this working without a hitch. You'll probably have to kill some of his minions (not just those that are around him all the time, I mean something on the way).

Thing is, your chances of getting a nascent demon lord with his pants down are remote.

james maissen wrote:

Now you just gack him easy enough as he's not that tough... for 20th level PCs that are optimized.

I'm not sure I can agree here. He's got plenty of HP, a decent AC, good set of other defensive abilities.

If you get near him, you'll probably be affected by his aura of corruption (DC 39 is quite high - a fighter or other strong fort character might have a chance, but the rest doesn't.

So prepare to be defoliated - and that's no euphemism.

His offensive is also quite nice - especially since you're all plants now, have fun with the +5 plant-bane acid burst axe. Can probably take down one character per round. Might need two rounds.

james maissen wrote:

It's assuming that you can track him down and get the jump on him, but that actually sounds reasonable from the description as well as the level of the group in question here.

Really? An almost divine being with a whole nation beneath him? Not reasonable at all.

[Mr. Quick]

oooo! I know how to beat the treerazer guy!

1. level a wizard to lvl 20.
2. learn the wish spell.
3. 'I wish Treerazor and the Tarrasque would fight to the death.'
4. cast 'create demiplane'
5. stay there until the dust settles.

[Alex Smith 908]

To the above post that is widely open to DM interpretation because of the nature of the wish spell, and is likely to backfire.

Second could someone clear up something about the Treerazer for me. Under his precombat tactics it says that he summons 4 nalfeshnees and 12 hezrous, but under the summon demon description it says that the combined CR of the summoned demons has to be 20 or less. How is he summoning that many demons?

[Umbral Reaver]

Mr. Quick wrote:

3. 'I wish Treerazor and the Tarrasque would fight to the death.'

You forgot to put 'each other' in there. The maliciously interpreted wish decides that Treerazer and the Tarrasque are now intent on fighting to the death. Their target is you.

:P

[InVinoVeritas]

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Mr. Quick wrote:

3. 'I wish Treerazor and the Tarrasque would fight to the death.'

You forgot to put 'each other' in there. The maliciously interpreted wish decides that Treerazer and the Tarrasque are now intent on fighting to the death. Their target is you.

:P

You? Nah...

Everything. Rampages across Golarion. Your family's hometown? Leveled. Your favorite tavern? Demolished. Enjoy that demiplane, 'cuz you ain't going home.

[Mr. Quick]

InVinoVeritas wrote:

Umbral Reaver wrote:

Mr. Quick wrote:

3. 'I wish Treerazor and the Tarrasque would fight to the death.'

You forgot to put 'each other' in there. The maliciously interpreted wish decides that Treerazer and the Tarrasque are now intent on fighting to the death. Their target is you.

:P

You? Nah...

Everything. Rampages across Golarion. Your family's hometown? Leveled. Your favorite tavern? Demolished. Enjoy that demiplane, 'cuz you ain't going home.

psh. like I haven't accidentally destroyed a world before. hello?! that's why I'd hide in my demiplane, chillin' with all my peoples 'till the whole thing was over.

Granted, the survivors are probably not gonna like me very much but hey, Treerazor is gone, the tarassque is probably not feeling very chipper and hey - we cleared the slate so the world can start over again! honestly, I think everyone should be thanking me.

[InVinoVeritas]

Mr. Quick wrote:

psh. like I haven't accidentally destroyed a world before. hello?! that's why I'd hide in my demiplane, chillin' with all my peoples 'till the whole thing was over.

Granted, the survivors are probably not gonna like me very much but hey, Treerazor is gone, the tarassque is probably not feeling very chipper and hey - we cleared the slate so the world can start over again! honestly, I think everyone should be thanking me.

Well, since "everyone" now means "Groetus," yeah, he's congratulating you.

Oh, but he's just got to pop that demiplane first. Hold on, won't be a thing.

[Mr. Quick]

InVinoVeritas wrote:

Mr. Quick wrote:

psh. like I haven't accidentally destroyed a world before. hello?! that's why I'd hide in my demiplane, chillin' with all my peoples 'till the whole thing was over.

Granted, the survivors are probably not gonna like me very much but hey, Treerazor is gone, the tarassque is probably not feeling very chipper and hey - we cleared the slate so the world can start over again! honestly, I think everyone should be thanking me.

Well, since "everyone" now means "Groetus," yeah, he's congratulating you.

Oh, but he's just got to pop that demiplane first. Hold on, won't be a thing.

i'm pretty sure that a treerazor/tarrasque extreme wrestling match won't destroy the ENTIRE world. it'd probably take out Cheliax, Kryonin, the River Kingdoms and maybe Brevoy. And Numeria. um...and possibly Razmirian. But that's all, I swear!

so it won't be THAT bad.

[InVinoVeritas]

Mr. Quick wrote:

i'm pretty sure that a treerazor/tarrasque extreme wrestling match won't destroy the ENTIRE world. it'd probably take out Cheliax, Kryonin, the River Kingdoms and maybe Brevoy. And Numeria. um...and possibly Razmirian. But that's all, I swear!

so it won't be THAT bad.

Well, sure, a Treerazer/Tarrasque extreme wrestling match won't destroy the whole world. But you didn't ask them to fight each other, just fight.

They'll fight each other once they run out of everything else.

[Douglas Muir 406]

His SR is 36, which is pretty high. A 20th level caster needs to roll a 16; with feats, that can be a 12. Not easy. There are a handful of spells that ignore SR, but most of them allow saving throws (see below).

His saves are Fort +34, Ref +23, Will +27. Ref is the lowest, and even there he'll save 90% of the time against a wizard with 25 Int throwing a 9th level spell.

A party of 20th level spellcasters could hit him with four 9th level spells and (with Quicken Spell) another four 5th level spells every round. Suppose all four have Greater Spell Penetration. Say further that they open combat with Energy Drain + Quickened Enervation. That's a total of 8d4 + 4, or average 24 negative energy levels. His touch AC is 22 (!); if our spellcasters have BAB +10 and +3 Dex, then they'll hit on 9s, or 60% of the time. Then they need 12s to overcome his SR, which happens 45% of the time. So on average 27% of these will get through, inflicting 24 x 0.27 = a bit over 6 NELs. So now he's -6 to hit... and -6 on all saving throws. This brings his saves down to the point where he could plausibly fail a Ref or Will save.

On Treerazer's first round, he kills a spellcaster. Three left.

Round 2, the spellcasters all cast save-or-suck spells with Ref and Will saves. They can get 3 high level spells and 3 5th or lower.

Hmm.

Doug M.

[W E Ray]

Treerazer wrote:

The name's TreerazEr, not "Treerazor."

I destroy (aka "raze") trees. I don't shave them.

Treerazor, on the other hand, is CR 27!

Spoiler:

And he's a VIKINGS fan who hates the Puckers.

[james maissen]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

His SR is 36, which is pretty high. A 20th level caster needs to roll a 16; with feats, that can be a 12. Not easy. There are a handful of spells that ignore SR, but most of them allow saving throws (see below).

His saves are Fort +34, Ref +23, Will +27. Ref is the lowest, and even there he'll save 90% of the time against a wizard with 25 Int throwing a 9th level spell.

A party of 20th level spellcasters could hit him with four 9th level spells and (with Quicken Spell) another four 5th level spells every round. Suppose all four have Greater Spell Penetration. Say further that they open combat with Energy Drain + Quickened Enervation. That's a total of 8d4 + 4, or average 24 negative energy levels. His touch AC is 22 (!); if our spellcasters have BAB +10 and +3 Dex, then they'll hit on 9s, or 60% of the time. Then they need 12s to overcome his SR, which happens 45% of the time. So on average 27% of these will get through, inflicting 24 x 0.27 = a bit over 6 NELs. So now he's -6 to hit... and -6 on all saving throws. This brings his saves down to the point where he could plausibly fail a Ref or Will save.

Doug M.

If for some reason you wanted to go with this enervation route, might I suggest a little here? Properly invested 4 wizards own him in one round in this route, it's just a bit extreme.

First you have better than a 3 DEX mod. You easily can have a 5 (14 DEX plus belt). Next you have a heroism (if not greater heroism spell) active for another +2. Boots of speed give you haste for another +1. You have a +18 to hit. Last either you act before him, or you block his LOS so either way he's flatfooted. His touch AC is now 12, even with cover and into melee you hit on a 2.

Feats taken by each of your wizards: quicken spell, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, allied spellcaster, trait: magical lineage (via extra traits if traits aren't given), maximize spell, empower spell, spell perfection (enervation), improved init, dazing spell, SF: Necro, and GSF: necro.

The 4 diviner (fortune) wizards roll their inits with a +27 modifier... with a 12 init bonus over treerazer they all go first.

First wizard casts: quickened tiny hut, now if Treerazer wasn't flatfooted before he is now as it blocks line of sight (even through true seeing), then a maximized dazing enervation (9th level spell via magical lineage, 6th level slot via spell perfection).

The wizard hits on a 2. We can use the fortune subschool to give succor to rolling 1s. His SR check is at +37 (20 levels +1 ioun stone +2x2 SP +2x2 GSP +4x2 Allied Spellcaster [x2 via spell perfection) so he autopasses the SR. Treerazer takes 4 negative levels, and needs to make a DC 32 will save (needs a 7, or 70% chance) to avoid being dazed for 4 rounds.

Second wizard casts: a quickened empowered (dazing via metarod) enervation and then a maximized dazing enervation. The quickened one
does 1d4x1.5 negative levels.. lets say 3 (1+3+4+6/4=3.5) and requires a DC 32 will save (he needs an 10 for this). The next one does another 4 negative levels and requires a DC 32 will save (he needs a 14 for this). He's up to 11 negative levels.

Third and fourth wizards do likewise inflicting another 14 negative levels on poor treerazer. He's got 25 negative levels now.

He's needed to make the following rolls:
A 7 (70%), a 10 (55%), a 14 (35%), a 17 (20%), and 3 20s (5% each) to avoid being dazed for 4 rounds.

The chance of that occurring is .000336875% (.7 x .55 x .35 x .2 x .05 x .05 x .05). Now that is assuming that all of these attacks hit, which is (factoring in foresight) about 97.5%. But this is not counting the chances of having a critical hit...

In other words, he's toast in round 1... dazed for 4 rounds with -25 on all saves. If the first wizard didn't need to quicken the tiny hut, treerazer would already be dead by negative levels.. in either case he is on the subsequent round from one more enervation.

Likewise you could ignore the metamagic rods of daze spell (and you could anyway the chance of dazing is that insanely high) and replace it with a normal rod of maximize. That would increase the number of negative levels by 6 on average, also killing the poor critter in round 1.

-James

[Banpai]

James Jacobs wrote:

Sylvanite wrote:

AMF on Imbue Arrow isn't rules bending, it's exactly what is stated is allowed in the Imbue Arrow description...it even specifies area spells that are typically only centered on the caster as being usable through Imbue Arrow. Also, the spell doesn't travel with the arrow, it goes into effect where the arrow lands (in a square or on a creature). The arrow itself is never the center of the AMF (which doesn't actually exist till the arrow lands somewhere).

So, with a quickened true strike and all your bonuses it would actually be fairly easy to hit Mr. Razer. Plus cold-iron ammo is of negligible cost and my archers always use Holy bows.

I don't mean to be a d-bag....but does ANYONE read the abilities involved before posting about them?!?!

Nope! Reading is for sissies! It's MUCH more fun to fly off half-cocked and make the rules up as you go!

Is it just me or does this post neeeeed to be FAQed for pretty much every rules argument ? ^^

[Taason the Black]

First of all, the players are assuming that TreeRazer is sitting around twiddling thumbs why the party hangs outside buffing and preparing. You are talking about a major being here. Do you think he wouldnt have systems in place to detect what is going on and give himself time to prepare? Do you think in all his time that hes never had a contingency magic item in place? He isnt sitting in status waiting for people to pop in to awaken.

And a group of CR demons serving him...what do you think they are, posterboys? A CR 20 demon will immediately port on those feeble mages of yours and destroy one a round easy.

The worst part about playing against a BBG is that if you afford him the same benefits and tactics of the PC, then the PCs cannot win.

[KaeYoss]

Taason the Black wrote:

First of all, the players are assuming that TreeRazer is sitting around twiddling thumbs why the party hangs outside buffing and preparing.

It's quite funny, really. People go, have a look at his stats, and then tailor the whole party to this one encounter, assuming that they get to prepare as long as they want and then get the drop on him when he's completely alone.

Too bad that's not how the game usually works.

[wraithstrike]

KaeYoss wrote:

Taason the Black wrote:

First of all, the players are assuming that TreeRazer is sitting around twiddling thumbs why the party hangs outside buffing and preparing.

It's quite funny, really. People go, have a look at his stats, and then tailor the whole party to this one encounter, assuming that they get to prepare as long as they want and then get the drop on him when he's completely alone.

Too bad that's not how the game usually works.

+1. He probably has some high level cultist/caster buffing him up. A few high CR outsiders among anything else a GM can come up with.

[Erastus Albercroft]

Ok, this may have already been mentioned, but here we go anyway. The 4 PC sell all there loot and buy the biggest cannon they can from Alkenstar's Gun Works and shot the crap out of Treerazer from a very comfortable range with cold iron cannon balls.

[Frozen Forever]

james maissen wrote:

If for some reason you wanted to go with this enervation route, might I suggest a little here? Properly invested 4 wizards own him in one round in this route, it's just a bit extreme.

First you have better than a 3 DEX mod. You easily can have a 5 (14 DEX plus belt). Next you have a heroism (if not greater heroism spell) active for another +2. Boots of speed give you haste for another +1. You have a +18 to hit. Last either you act before him, or you block his LOS so either way he's flatfooted. His touch AC is now 12, even with cover and into melee you hit on a 2.

Feats taken by each of your wizards: quicken spell, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, allied spellcaster, trait: magical lineage (via extra traits if traits aren't given), maximize spell, empower spell, spell perfection (enervation), improved init, dazing spell, SF:...

Cool. So, what about the four nalfeshnees and 12 hezrous he has already summoned?

[james maissen]

Frozen Forever wrote:

Cool. So, what about the four nalfeshnees and 12 hezrous he has already summoned?

You mean the ones that he doesn't have the ability to fully summon?

The wizards ignore them as the fodder that they are.

Besides it was merely responding to another poster who was having a group of 4 20th level wizards fail spectacularly against treerazer with a tactic that when done right can work. The same group, optimized a little for it, takes him out before initiative 30 (give or take).

Now what are these little critters going to do against these wizards? Their leader is gacked and it's their turn. Let's see what they have available to do.

The type 4s' greater dispels are at 12th CL, so aren't going to hit anything that's CL 22 or so which is everything that these wizards cast. The type 2s' blasphemys while deadly against level 8 parties are also useless against 20th level PCs. The type 4s DC 20 feebleminds will lets see go against a +24 or so will save, so only succeed on a 1 and if the wizard didn't need to use his forsight roll yet he can always use that instead. The worst you are likely to see are a dozen chaos hammers hit the party.

Assuming our little wizards here have let's say a 38 or so AC the hezrous can't hit except on 20s so they are best using those chaos hammers (unless our wizards are chaotic, have SR, or have a spell immunity up against it- the later of which is highly likely if this encounter was planned and why wouldn't it be) or using an aid other for attacks. The type 4s can close to hit on natural 15s.

Meanwhile the type 4s get nuked the next round regardless as face it, our little wizards have just used a pair of 6th and/or 7th level spells and are still nearly fully loaded.

Really these creatures aren't an issue for a 20th level group other than to get in the way. In fact you shouldn't suppose that they would be, anymore than a bunch of level 1 mooks with level 3-4 leaders would be against a level 9 party.

-James

[James Jacobs]

james maissen wrote:

Really these creatures aren't an issue for a 20th level group other than to get in the way. In fact you shouldn't suppose that they would be, anymore than a bunch of level 1 mooks with level 3-4 leaders would be against a level 9 party.

But "getting in the way" is PRECISELY the point of creatures like this in an encounter like this. If you ignore them, you're going to still be hit by lots of annoying and possibly debilitating effects. And even if it only takes one wizard one action to get rid of them, that's one round the wizard ISN'T doing things against Treerazer.

(Who might have won initiative and used time stop to put some symbols of death, walls of thorns, and other surprises all up in those wizards' buisness in the meantime...)

[Douglas Muir 406]

James Jacobs wrote:

(Who might have won initiative and used time stop to put some symbols of death, walls of thorns, and other surprises all up in those wizards' buisness in the meantime...)

I see your point about the lesser demons and cultists and whatnot. But the initiative thing?

"In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20."

20th level diviners cannot roll less than a 31 on initiative. Give them 12 Dex, some very modest buffs, and an item or two, and their minimum easily rises to 36 or so. Treerazer gets +14 to initiative. So, if it's straight-up init rolling, our hypothetical diviners will always, always win.

Now, you can make the argument that he'd have some kind of DEW line up, using minions to scan the sky for invisible flyers, magical traps, some kind of contingency-type effects, yadda yadda. I would have no problem with any of that.

But he's not going to win initiative against these guys.

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

-- No, that's too definitive. Let me walk it back a step.

It's hard to see how Treerazer (or anyone else, short of a divine creature) can avoid being caught flatfooted by these guys. That said, I won't be surprised if the collective evil intelligence of this forum is able to come up with something.

Doug M.

[HaraldKlak]

Disclaimer: This includes material from AA, used in the most cheesy way possible.

Treerazer meet Paladin McShields:

McShields is a paladin who likes to throw shields at evil outsiders.
He is fond of Throwing Light Shields (agile) and his ability to draw thing quickly. In fact, he draws his shields as a free action, and throw them as a free action.
McShields really don't bother with having other abilities than sheer strengt, as long as he got mulecords, and a companion who cast Ant Haul on him.

When push comes to show, McShields is going to be carrying about 9600 throwing agile light shields, which all are drawn and thrown as free actions.
While smiting he actually has a decent chance of hitting with his shields, but he would actually be satisfied with only hitting on 1 per 20 attack.

BTW: His party consists of three 20th level wizards with telekinesis and unseen servant, who get to pick up all the shields after him.

[wraithstrike]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

-- No, that's too definitive. Let me walk it back a step.

It's hard to see how Treerazer (or anyone else, short of a divine creature) can avoid being caught flatfooted by these guys. That said, I won't be surprised if the collective evil intelligence of this forum is able to come up with something.

Doug M.

I am assuming Treerazer will have a system in place to make sure he knows he has visitors well before they are in combat range. If they have to fight their way too him he just joins combat(rolls initiative) well before the party sees him and uses his actions to move up to the party.

[Douglas Muir 406]

wraithstrike wrote:

I am assuming Treerazer will have a system in place to make sure he knows he has visitors well before they are in combat range.

Sure. But the outcome of the combat will depend sensitively on the details of this system (and whether it can be avoided, and if so, how).

Doug M.

[wraithstrike]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

I am assuming Treerazer will have a system in place to make sure he knows he has visitors well before they are in combat range.

Sure. But the outcome of the combat will depend sensitively on the details of this system (and whether it can be avoided, and if so, how).

Doug M.

It will vary immensely from party to party, but not getting surprised is not too hard. I figure anything he can't do himself he can get someone to do for him.

I am not too impressed with his stats, but I am sure he has enough resources to make things more difficult than they would seem to be.

PS:I also generally allow for better point buy stats and wealth at times, so that may be the issue.

[Orannis]

KaeYoss wrote:

Thing is, your chances of getting a nascent demon lord with his pants down are remote.

It's late and I am deliriously tired, but I am pretty sure this is one of the most amusing things I have read on this forum.

[james maissen]

James Jacobs wrote:

james maissen wrote:

Really these creatures aren't an issue for a 20th level group other than to get in the way. In fact you shouldn't suppose that they would be, anymore than a bunch of level 1 mooks with level 3-4 leaders would be against a level 9 party.

But "getting in the way" is PRECISELY the point of creatures like this in an encounter like this. If you ignore them, you're going to still be hit by lots of annoying and possibly debilitating effects. And even if it only takes one wizard one action to get rid of them, that's one round the wizard ISN'T doing things against Treerazer.

Umm.. first I accounted for 'cover' as the wizards DO ignore these 'distractions' and nuke your treerazer in round 1 before init 30 or so comes along in round 1 (or the surprise round if there is one).

The mooks can't reasonably hit our archmages even if they start within full attack range the wizards can just take the little bit of damage that the type 4s could deal.

Please name the exact 'annoying and debilitating effects' of which you speak from type 2s and type 4s as I think I accounted for them in the post that you quoted. Our archmages are going to have a spell immunity against chaos hammer and won't fail feebleminds except on a 1, and only a pair of 1s out of 6 rolls will get to do this to any one of our wizards after they've gotten rid of treerazer.

So again, by the time these mooks even get to act they won't need to stop our wizards from doing things to treerazer, as treerazer will already be gone.

James Jacobs wrote:

(Who might have won initiative and used time stop to put some symbols of death, walls of thorns, and other surprises all up in those wizards' buisness in the meantime...)

He could possibly win initiative against one of the wizards (well possibly against all of them but you try that when you're 12 or more lower in init.. IF treerazer rolls a natural 20 then the wizards need to roll around a 7 or 8 to beat him in init... this happens about 76% of the time).

The odds are somewhat against you here when you figure them out. If it happens the best action for treerazer is to teleport away and hide.

Btw he only gets 1 symbol of death from the stat block I'm seeing, and until he gets to hurt the wizards they won't be effected by it. Now the type 2s on the other hand can eat a symbol, so the mooks are good for something.

-James

[Philip Dhollander]

4 Paladins...

Each spends a free action to 'smite', then assigns Treerazer as a swift action. Alternatively,one uses aura of justice to give each of his buddies 'smite', so the three other pallies can use their own swift actions for items or abilities

Each Paladin will now do + cha mod (+5/+6 on average) to attack rolls and a whopping +40 on damage per hit.

Two rounds, goodbye Treerazer :)

It gets worse with three barbarians and one paladin... The barbarians will start doing 2d6 + 70 per hit... Give them a high crit range weapon (scimitar or is it falchion, large sized) with improved critical and nothing can stand against that! I've seen a barbarian boosted by a paladin this way take on balor's (yes, multiple, actually three of them) heads on and walk away after 3 rounds...

Take it from me, I DM for a group of lvl 19 characters (paladin - who gives +5 to hit, +39 damage to all; barbarian; sorcerer; rogue) and the paladin granting smite to all others for free combined with their inherent damage output (sorcerer --> dragonform) is unstoppable.

I've pitted CR 23's and 25's against them, to little avail...

High level (17+) PF is über, period!

[Mojorat]

I will preface this saying I've only done one game over lvl 10' a lvl 18 game with two sessions.

but the 12 nalfeshnee all have at will greater dispel magic. seems to me ignoring them based on my limited experience would be suicidal.

[InVinoVeritas]

Come on, guys, you all are thinking about this too hard. It's simple to take out Treerazer.

Bribe your GM with pizza. If that doesn't work, get a new GM.

[Kthulhu]

Treerazer. Dire Honey Badger doesn't give a $#!+.

[Shisumo]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

But he's not going to win initiative against these guys.

That only matters if they can get within 75 feet as a move action from wherever initiative is rolled, though. As Treerazer has a continual true seeing and ludicrously high Perception check, we're talking about scry and fry, but with all their focus going to boosting their necromancy effects their divination isn't necessarily going to be as effective - he's got a good chance to resist greater scrying, and while discern location will get you there, it's not going to tell you what you'll find when you arrive, so most people aren't as comfortable with it.

(There's also the interesting question of whether a teleportation spell should count as the teleporter's action if the teleportation itself is what triggers the move to combat rounds...)

[james maissen]

Shisumo wrote:

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

But he's not going to win initiative against these guys.

That only matters if they can get within 75 feet as a move action from wherever initiative is rolled, though. As Treerazer has a continual true seeing and ludicrously high Perception check....

(There's also the interesting question of whether a teleportation spell should count as the teleporter's action if the teleportation itself is what triggers the move to combat rounds...)

The first could be obviated by the reach spell changing it into medium range (300 ft), or to be honest simply flying up as a move action.

Treerazer's perception of +38 while nice could be overcome.

At 20th level you could reasonably have +57 (20 ranks +3 trained +1 trait +6 skill focus +4 stealthy +4 size +6 DEX +10 item +1luck +1 ioun +1insight) before distance modifiers (which will exist as that's the point). Removing the pair of feats (though the wizards did have 3-4 unused feats iirc), but putting in at least 120 feet of distance gives us a +59 on the roll.. which means even a 1 will beat a 20 on poor treerazer's side.

Honestly this is where minions would come into play... as spotters.

As to a group of PCs just teleporting in.. that sounds like a surprise round to me.. we've been talking about a normal round. Besides at 20th level that can be done, which is the point.

-James

[james maissen]

Mojorat wrote:

I will preface this saying I've only done one game over lvl 10' a lvl 18 game with two sessions.

but the 12 nalfeshnee all have at will greater dispel magic. seems to me ignoring them based on my limited experience would be suicidal.

Two things: it's only 4 of the type 4s (Nalfeshnees) and 12 of the little type 2s (Hezrous).

The type 4s only have a CL of 12 for their spell like abilities. The DC of the check is 11+CL, as the wizards will have a caster level of 22-23 the DC will be 33-34 which means that the type 4s can't dispel anything.

Now they can ready to counterspell and could succeed on a 18+ or so, but they would be doing that after their boss was already gone.

-James

[KaeYoss]

wraithstrike wrote:

I am assuming Treerazer will have a system in place to make sure he knows he has visitors well before they are in combat range.

I think it's called a frikkin' demon nation (FDN for short). This guy is not an encounter. He's a campaign.