Actual link for those interested.
This seems a bit wonky. His combat description says that he uses Greater Vital Strike if he must take a move action or charge. I thought VS couldn't be used in Charges?
Maze him, then Prismatic Sphere where he's to return?
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First idea: He lives in a Walled Off swamp. Swamps have swamp gas. Plants are flammable. Start a fire in there from multiple points to raze the trees (har!). Plants gone, have 4 wizards or sorcerers fly outside the reach of the creature (probably even outside the Walls), and cast Meteor Swarm or something. Actually, upon looking at Meteor Swarm...wtf that is weak. A level NINE spell doing 16d6 points of damage? Jesus christ, where's the spell that summons meteors from the sky, laying waste to entire cities and armies in one fell swoop? Where's the shockwave that comes from a meteor hitting the earth? Why the hell isn't the target stunned? They just got whacked by a meteor! I don't care if you're a dracolich or a giant demondino, you're going to be stunned! Oh god I've had a fascination with that spell ever since 2e, but never actually read it. It's so weak! My innocence! Lost forever! Oh sweet jesus why is this so bad...
Anyways, Symbol of Vulnerability and some Save or Sucks. Teleport the SoV in, and then go to town on the weakened Treerazer.
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It has since come to my attention that Meteor Swarm is 4 2' meteors, not 2 4' meteors.
This makes the spell slightly better. Slightly. Anyways, I'd argue that , due to historical reasons, each meteor has a +200 damage bonus versus Dinosaurs, which Treerazer appears to be. Nuke him from orbit.
Ten thousand kobolds with bows and cold iron arrows.
10,000 Raging Celestial Badgers.
My first thought is to drop an Anti-Magic Field on him and then just try to beat the crap out of him once all of his spell-likes and supernatural abilities are no longer working. Probably doing this from range would be the best idea, as I'm not sure if AMF would shut off Blackaxe since it's an artifact. It doesn't say anything about that in the description of AMF, but I don't know if AMF extends to artifacts or not.
Once Treerazer has an AMF centered on him, it just becomes a matter of having PCs with good aligned weapons (preferably cold iron) just beating the tar out of him. I would think this would be easier at range as he's still a melee BEAST within an AMF zone.
Of course an AMF is only like 20' diameter - 10' from you - and Treerazer is a huge creature. Won't work. You will need to Dimensional Anchor him immediately. It won't stop an artifact, but it will stop the rest of the shenanigans. Acid Resistance would help. If you can get him away from trees, it would be easier. And you would have to try and block the Aura of Corruption.
Sorry. I'm so used to playing an Arcane Archer-styled character I forget that not everyone knows about the Imbue Arrow AMF trick. Do it that way. Quickened True Strike, Imbued AMF on Treerazer, then pincushion from range. Cold Iron ammo is cheap, cheap too.
Sorry. I'm so used to playing an Arcane Archer-styled character I forget that not everyone knows about the Imbue Arrow AMF trick. Do it that way. Quickened True Strike, Imbued AMF on Treerazer, then pincushion from range. Cold Iron ammo is cheap, cheap too.
So the creature that itself 20' in diameter is going to be stopped by a 20' diameter area AMF, how?
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Fights always seem to depend on how much the PCs can prep.
And who goes first in initiative or a surprise round.
If the PCs can prepare, summoning some powerful help through Gate is a good idea.
Using Wish is good.
Tickling TreeRazor's feet is good.
....
I'd have 4 full casters, all with Leadership. And 4 tank Cohorts.
Gate, Gr Planar Ally and Wish are my friends. So is Time Stop to bump the Cohorts with stuff.
I'm absolutely confident that lots of groups of PCs, though, could take out a BBEG 5 points above their APL when they have time to prepare and Kick Out The Jams (M-F'er).
Sorry. I'm so used to playing an Arcane Archer-styled character I forget that not everyone knows about the Imbue Arrow AMF trick. Do it that way. Quickened True Strike, Imbued AMF on Treerazer, then pincushion from range. Cold Iron ammo is cheap, cheap too.So the creature that itself 20' in diameter is going to be stopped by a 20' diameter area AMF, how?
By being the center of it, shutting off most of his abilities.
By being the center of it, shutting off most of his abilities.Sorry. I'm so used to playing an Arcane Archer-styled character I forget that not everyone knows about the Imbue Arrow AMF trick. Do it that way. Quickened True Strike, Imbued AMF on Treerazer, then pincushion from range. Cold Iron ammo is cheap, cheap too.So the creature that itself 20' in diameter is going to be stopped by a 20' diameter area AMF, how?
At which point he moves...
At which point he moves...By being the center of it, shutting off most of his abilities.Sorry. I'm so used to playing an Arcane Archer-styled character I forget that not everyone knows about the Imbue Arrow AMF trick. Do it that way. Quickened True Strike, Imbued AMF on Treerazer, then pincushion from range. Cold Iron ammo is cheap, cheap too.So the creature that itself 20' in diameter is going to be stopped by a 20' diameter area AMF, how?
And the arrow is still stuck in him...
Then realizes he is the center of it?
Since the arrow tagged him, the spell would be centered on him, and AMF moves with him. It explicitly states that the area of the spell moves with you in its description, and since you are tagging another creature with it, not the ground, it would follow that it moves with them as well.
And the arrow is still stuck in him...At which point he moves...By being the center of it, shutting off most of his abilities.Sorry. I'm so used to playing an Arcane Archer-styled character I forget that not everyone knows about the Imbue Arrow AMF trick. Do it that way. Quickened True Strike, Imbued AMF on Treerazer, then pincushion from range. Cold Iron ammo is cheap, cheap too.So the creature that itself 20' in diameter is going to be stopped by a 20' diameter area AMF, how?
Who says? I neither recall any rule that states that arrows do anything but cease to exist upon hitting a target nor see any rule stating the effect of a "personal" area spell is transferred to the target of the Imbued Arrow.
Imbue Arrow says the spell is centered where it lands. Anti-Magic Field says the spell moves with you. That's all I can give you. There is no proof of your position, and no proof other than following logic for mine. If you don't think it works, that's fine. I think it does work, though.
Edit: AMF is also not a "personal" area spell. It's an area effect spell CENTERED on you. All you are doing when you peg someone with the arrow is taking the exact spell and centering it on them, which then follows all the rules for the spell as is. It even then specifically says in the spell that the spell's area moves with you. I really think you're in the wrong on this one.
Arrows in your games literally cease to exist when they hit someone? Logically speaking, if an arrow beats something's AC, it's gonna be stuck in him. Sure, the pain they give from being stuck is abstracted away (probably included in the damage dice), but the arrows are still there. You just can't use them.
Antimagic Field has an area, and is not a "personal" spell. The word "personal" doesn't appear anywhere in the description or stat block of the spell, at least on d20pfsrd. The spell's area is centered on where the arrow lands. In fact, Imbue Arrow specifically says "When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. "
So AMF on an Imbue Arrow would work, even if arrows "ceased to exist upon hitting". The arrow landed on a creature. It's centered on him.
Imbue Arrow says the spell is centered where it lands. Anti-Magic Field says the spell moves with you.
Yes. The arrow lands in X square of monster's space for all effects and purposes. It does not move.
There is no proof of your position, and no proof other than following logic for mine.
There are no rules saying arrows continue to exist after contact (in fact, the OPPOSITE is true). There are no rules saying the arrow makes the target the recipient of the spell. AMF is stationary.
Arrows in your games literally cease to exist when they hit someone? Logically speaking,
RAW'ly speaking. Yes. They do. Good luck recovering arrows from the pin-cushioned giant - they aren't there by RAW.
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Imbue Arrow says the spell is centered where it lands. Anti-Magic Field says the spell moves with you. That's all I can give you. There is no proof of your position, and no proof other than following logic for mine. If you don't think it works, that's fine. I think it does work, though.
Edit: AMF is also not a "personal" area spell. It's an area effect spell CENTERED on you. All you are doing when you peg someone with the arrow is taking the exact spell and centering it on them, which then follows all the rules for the spell as is. It even then specifically says in the spell that the spell's area moves with you. I really think you're in the wrong on this one.
From the ammunition entry in the Core Rulebook:
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
So, RAW (and somewhat abstract), ammunition disappears after hitting the target. I suppose this is done to stop stupid tricks such as shooting silenced arrows, something far more problematic than AA's imbued AMFs.
Actually I think that well optimized party will mop the floor with him.
Dual scimitar wielding Paladin with improved critical or some similar build and support cast of characters. +40 damage per strike (+80 on critical) only from smite evil bonus. Huge bonuses on each attack from smite evil, huge saves... Never underestimate optimized paladins. xD
RAW, the spell effect is transferred to where the arrow landed. If it landed on a target, the spell is centered on the target.
Whether or not ammunition is destroyed or rendered useless (as I would designate any arrow that hit a target. You won't be able to use that arrow again, even if you can pull it out.) doesn't matter, as Imbue Arrow specifically says wherever the arrow lands is the new center of the spell. It doesn't say the piece of land beneath where the the arrow is, or else it'd be useless against flying targets. If an area spell can move, then it'll move with the target, since it is now centered on the target.
The ammunition debate doesn't actually matter, as Imbue Arrow fully explains what happens.
Let's just FAQ a post and move on. I'm not sure which is the best one to FAQ though.
Imbue Arrow says the spell is centered where it lands. Anti-Magic Field says the spell moves with you. That's all I can give you. There is no proof of your position, and no proof other than following logic for mine. If you don't think it works, that's fine. I think it does work, though.
Edit: AMF is also not a "personal" area spell. It's an area effect spell CENTERED on you. All you are doing when you peg someone with the arrow is taking the exact spell and centering it on them, which then follows all the rules for the spell as is. It even then specifically says in the spell that the spell's area moves with you. I really think you're in the wrong on this one.
From the ammunition entry in the Core Rulebook:
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
So, RAW (and somewhat abstract), ammunition disappears after hitting the target. I suppose this is done to stop stupid tricks such as shooting silenced arrows, something far more problematic than AA's imbued AMFs.
As Cheapy already mentioned, the ammunition part doesn't matter, which is why I never mentioned it. What the arrow hits becomes the center of the spell. AMF moves with the center of the spell. It states that in the spell description (even though it says "you" since normally the spell can only be centered on you....though it's important to note it is NOT a personal spell by definition).
Bring it on, you chumps! MWA HA HAHAHAHAAHAH!
I mentioned the arrow sticking before reading up on AMF and imbue arrow. It wad mostly meant as a humorous conclusion to the quote chain. While I guess our ideas of what happens to arrows after they hit someone differ, it doesn't quite matter.
Creative Director
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Although Treerazer's sounding pretty confident... I should note here that his space/reach is an error. He's only Huge, so his space/reach should be 15 ft./15 ft. Still easy enough for him to avoid most antimgaic fields, though, and keep in mind that hitting an AC of 42 with some sort of rules-bending cheaty antimagic arrow is gonna be tough (since you don't get any of the arrow's magic bonuses when you shoot, and you'll have to get through his DR 15/cold iron and good, which is tough to do for a nonmagic arrow...).
Oh also... don' forget his CR 20 worth of free helper demons... these would, of course, be in addition to helper demons he keeps nearby at all times anyway! ;-P
(AKA: If the PCs get the time to optimize their group, he should get the time to optimize his defenses!)
Although Treerazer's sounding pretty confident... I should note here that his space/reach is an error. He's only Huge, so his space/reach should be 15 ft./15 ft. Still easy enough for him to avoid most antimgaic fields, though, and keep in mind that hitting an AC of 42 with some sort of rules-bending cheaty antimagic arrow is gonna be tough (since you don't get any of the arrow's magic bonuses when you shoot, and you'll have to get through his DR 15/cold iron and good, which is tough to do for a nonmagic arrow...).
Oh also... don' forget his CR 20 worth of free helper demons... these would, of course, be in addition to helper demons he keeps nearby at all times anyway! ;-P
(AKA: If the PCs get the time to optimize their group, he should get the time to optimize his defenses!)
AMF on Imbue Arrow isn't rules bending, it's exactly what is stated is allowed in the Imbue Arrow description...it even specifies area spells that are typically only centered on the caster as being usable through Imbue Arrow. Also, the spell doesn't travel with the arrow, it goes into effect where the arrow lands (in a square or on a creature). The arrow itself is never the center of the AMF (which doesn't actually exist till the arrow lands somewhere).
So, with a quickened true strike and all your bonuses it would actually be fairly easy to hit Mr. Razer. Plus cold-iron ammo is of negligible cost and my archers always use Holy bows.
I don't mean to be a d-bag....but does ANYONE read the abilities involved before posting about them?!?!
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I would say this...look to the elves of Kyonin and ask them how they keep him at bay. They have secrets they aren't sharing? Elves?
RAW, the spell effect is transferred to where the arrow landed.
A square in the monster's space. Roll randomly for which.
If it landed on a target, the spell is centered on the target.
Which proceeds to move.
RAW, the spell effect is transferred to where the arrow landed.A square in the monster's space. Roll randomly for which.
If it landed on a target, the spell is centered on the target.Which proceeds to move.
No. : )
Bring it on, you chumps! MWA HA HAHAHAHAAHAH!
Dude, I dimensional anchor you then beat you with a stick.
Gryphon Cavalier Lance fly-by attack!|
Creative Director
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AMF on Imbue Arrow isn't rules bending, it's exactly what is stated is allowed in the Imbue Arrow description...it even specifies area spells that are typically only centered on the caster as being usable through Imbue Arrow. Also, the spell doesn't travel with the arrow, it goes into effect where the arrow lands (in a square or on a creature). The arrow itself is never the center of the AMF (which doesn't actually exist till the arrow lands somewhere).
So, with a quickened true strike and all your bonuses it would actually be fairly easy to hit Mr. Razer. Plus cold-iron ammo is of negligible cost and my archers always use Holy bows.
I don't mean to be a d-bag....but does ANYONE read the abilities involved before posting about them?!?!
Nope! Reading is for sissies! It's MUCH more fun to fly off half-cocked and make the rules up as you go!
No.RAW, the spell effect is transferred to where the arrow landed.A square in the monster's space. Roll randomly for which.
If it landed on a target, the spell is centered on the target.Which proceeds to move.
Yes. It does. You have presented no rules counteracting my multiple rules arguments.
Bring it on, you chumps! MWA HA HAHAHAHAAHAH!Dude, I dimensional anchor you then beat you with a stick.
Gryphon Cavalier Lance fly-by attack!
If you wanna waste a precious action casting a spell on me that'll keep me from running away when I have no plans on running away in the first place, that's fine with me! I'll be busy smiting your freshly-fungused skin and bones.
Yes. It does. You have presented no rules counteracting my multiple rules arguments.No.RAW, the spell effect is transferred to where the arrow landed.A square in the monster's space. Roll randomly for which.
If it landed on a target, the spell is centered on the target.Which proceeds to move.
And you have presented none contradicting my argument. You're just making things up and then claiming there are no rules to refute them.
@James Jacobs: Heh. Fair enough. As you're kind of a big deal I guess flying off half-cocked about rules is your right, sir :p
And you have presented none contradicting my argument. You're just making things up and then claiming there are no rules to refute them.
Rules as written directly contradicts your argument. Ammo CEASES TO EXIST on a successful hit. MOREOVER, at no point does the Imbue Arrow ability state that the target of the attack becomes the target of the spell. It states the spell takes effect centered on the space where the arrow hits. You hit a RANDOM SQUARE on the target monster which is where the spell takes effect. MOREOVER, the combination of rule A and non-rule B, combines to provide a rule argument that contradicts your assertion that the AMF stays with the target on a successful hit.
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Cartigan appears to have the right of it. Imbue arrow says:
'When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster.'
OK, so you fire the arrow at Treerazer and hit. As per the rules on ammunition, the arrow is destroyed, and triggers an anti-magic field radiating from the point where you struck Treerazer. Then Treerazer rolls Spellcraft goes 'Oho, I see what you did there' and moves out of the area of effect. Job done.
From your reading, you seem to believe that the spell follows Treerazer around, but there's nothing in the ability to support that. The spell's area is 'centered where the arrow lands'. There's no extra line saying
'Oh, and if the arrow lands in a creature, I guess that spell radiates from that creature for its total duration, or something. Yeah, that sounds good.'
IIRC there was a ruling that if a creature was too large for the AMF it got to choose which point it got to choose as the center. Why couldn't tree razor position it so the fighter type loses all of his magic too. That means lower saves, and possibly a controlled fighter.
Since the spell has a target of "you" and "you" is now Treerazor does that not make him the caster for purposes of decisions just like potions can be dismissed by the drinker. If so could he not just dismiss antimagic field?
Cartigan appears to have the right of it. Imbue arrow says:
'When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster.'OK, so you fire the arrow at Treerazer and hit. As per the rules on ammunition, the arrow is destroyed, and triggers an anti-magic field radiating from the point where you struck Treerazer. Then Treerazer rolls Spellcraft goes 'Oho, I see what you did there' and moves out of the area of effect. Job done.
From your reading, you seem to believe that the spell follows Treerazer around, but there's nothing in the ability to support that. The spell's area is 'centered where the arrow lands'. There's no extra line saying
'Oh, and if the arrow lands in a creature, I guess that spell radiates from that creature for its total duration, or something. Yeah, that sounds good.'
Read the spell.
IIRC there was a ruling that if a creature was too large for the AMF it got to choose which point it got to choose as the center. Why couldn't tree razor position it so the fighter type loses all of his magic too. That means lower saves, and possibly a controlled fighter.
Since the spell has a target of "you" and "you" is now Treerazor does that not make him the caster for purposes of decisions just like potions can be dismissed by the drinker. If so could he not just dismiss antimagic field?
Treerazer is not too large for the spell. It has a 20' diameter. He is not the spellcaster, he is simply the center of the spell.
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IIRC there was a ruling that if a creature was too large for the AMF it got to choose which point it got to choose as the center. Why couldn't tree razor position it so the fighter type loses all of his magic too. That means lower saves, and possibly a controlled fighter.
Since the spell has a target of "you" and "you" is now Treerazor does that not make him the caster for purposes of decisions just like potions can be dismissed by the drinker. If so could he not just dismiss antimagic field?
Well, Imbue arrow seems to suggest that it changes the target to 'The point in space this projectile impacts on', so no dismissibility for Treerazer. However, the idea that the field creatured thus moves with him doesn't seem to have a grounding in the rules.
Well, Imbue arrow seems to suggest that it changes the target to 'The point in space this projectile impacts on', so no dismissibility for Treerazer. However, the idea that the field creatured thus moves with him doesn't seem to have a grounding in the rules.IIRC there was a ruling that if a creature was too large for the AMF it got to choose which point it got to choose as the center. Why couldn't tree razor position it so the fighter type loses all of his magic too. That means lower saves, and possibly a controlled fighter.
Since the spell has a target of "you" and "you" is now Treerazor does that not make him the caster for purposes of decisions just like potions can be dismissed by the drinker. If so could he not just dismiss antimagic field?
Read the spell. Please.
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I wonder how Treerazor would fair against a good old fashioned artillery barrage? keep casting True Strike on the cannon crew for that +20 to attack rolls, and blow the crap outta him.
hmm. there are logistical difficulties to be overcome with that plan though.
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Read the spell.Cartigan appears to have the right of it. Imbue arrow says:
'When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster.'OK, so you fire the arrow at Treerazer and hit. As per the rules on ammunition, the arrow is destroyed, and triggers an anti-magic field radiating from the point where you struck Treerazer. Then Treerazer rolls Spellcraft goes 'Oho, I see what you did there' and moves out of the area of effect. Job done.
From your reading, you seem to believe that the spell follows Treerazer around, but there's nothing in the ability to support that. The spell's area is 'centered where the arrow lands'. There's no extra line saying
'Oh, and if the arrow lands in a creature, I guess that spell radiates from that creature for its total duration, or something. Yeah, that sounds good.'
But the text of the spell has nothing to do with it. As far as I can tell, Imbue arow affects the spell thus:
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on the point this arrows strikes
An invisible barrier surrounds the arrow and doesn't move, because the arrow is destroyed when it strikes a target. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
keep in mind that hitting an AC of 42 with some sort of rules-bending cheaty antimagic arrow is gonna be tough (since you don't get any of the arrow's magic bonuses when you shoot, and you'll have to get through his DR 15/cold iron and good, which is tough to do for a nonmagic arrow...).
And not only is this an exploit that might draw the attention of SoM, it also means that now magic won't help you nearly as much as before. And squishy humanoid weaklings need their magic a lot more than demon lords, even nascent ones. So he loses his spell-like abilities and his magic weapon (unless that ignores the AMF due to being an artefact). He's still as strong and as tough as before. Once he closes with any mortal, that mortal is dead.
Can we continue the thread here? I'm genuinely interested in seeing how to take down Treerazer. Sorry for the debate!
Read the spell.Cartigan appears to have the right of it. Imbue arrow says:
'When the arrow is fired, the spell's area is centered where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster.'OK, so you fire the arrow at Treerazer and hit. As per the rules on ammunition, the arrow is destroyed, and triggers an anti-magic field radiating from the point where you struck Treerazer. Then Treerazer rolls Spellcraft goes 'Oho, I see what you did there' and moves out of the area of effect. Job done.
From your reading, you seem to believe that the spell follows Treerazer around, but there's nothing in the ability to support that. The spell's area is 'centered where the arrow lands'. There's no extra line saying
'Oh, and if the arrow lands in a creature, I guess that spell radiates from that creature for its total duration, or something. Yeah, that sounds good.'
Read Imbue Arrow.
Sorry for the threadjack. I'm editing this post to bring it over to the thread Cheapy started for this discussion.
Down with Treerazer!
