huh how is this broken? all he saves is time he pays exactly what he would have if he baught the item.the difference I'n time is highly noticeable but to be honest the crafting rules are a pain. this let's a player make things while ignoring a tedious mechanic.
Because it destroys the world economy. It's a world view shifting thing. There won't be any crafters a generation or two after this spell comes into being. A crafter needs days or weeks to make masterwork material. Any idiot with an anvil and a hammer can make a basic set of anything, then hand it over to the caster to make it perfect. You could make a weapon using template forge technology (clay mold, pour metal in, get a solid steel sword in hours), then have the adept cast the spell on it to make it perfectly balanced and fix the issues with it being easily breakable. Same with armor. Stitch up bad hide into an armor shape, cast spell, and MW leather armor instead of cheap leather armor.
The game already has ways to destroy the economy. The economy threads always have ways to for a GM to shut such things down if the economy is the issue.
You are also assuming casters are just hanging out casting spells for people. They probably have lives of their own, and since the PC classes are rare it would probably be hard to find enough that are willing to do this. The government would probably have them doing this for all of their soldier's weapons. They also won't just be doing weapons. There are not enough casters to cover every item type.
edit:I see someone already made these points basically, but in anyone missed it the first time I will leave my post up.
I've seen plenty. But from what i'm reading in various threads, there does seem to be some power creep... I'll be happy to hear opinions to the contrary.... Wow... I am feeling more and more justified in sticking to APG + Core for my games, this threads very interesting.Seems like you haven't seen many level 20 statblocks :)
That stack block was not really all that impressive. It only had a +43 to hit, and I am not being facetious. Many players don't make such builds because they are not trying to, but even without additional books it is not impossible. The mindset of a the player is more of a deterrent than the number of books in many cases.
Yeah, the high numbers of that build didn't impress me. I could match or exceed many of them long before UM came out.
What does impress me, however, is the fact that it has those high numbers pretty much across the board.
The HP are also the highest I've ever seen, but then I remember that a normal summoner/eidolon pairing would have just as many HP and would be able to take twice as many actions.
EDIT: For the OP...
...you can use Spell Perfection and echo spell to create an infinite spell loop with a single spell of 6th-level (7th-level with traits) or lower. Some people don't think it works, but that doesn't change the fact that the designers are so scared of it that they have already announced coming errata for the echo spell feat.
So are dwarves with the Empyreal bloodline the new powerhouse sorcerers? Could they dethrone humans with the spiffy alternate favored class ability?
But then you lose out on the Eldritch Heritage feats. You get to pick a level 1, level 3 or 9 and a level 15 bloodline ability. For 3 feats, granted, but there are some REALLY good options out there. For 2 feats, you can get a good bit of natural armour and elemental resistance. For 3 you can get the fey bloodline's double-shot at beating SR. Or the air elemental's flight. Heck, you can even get access to channel energy via this feat chain now.
Far as I can see, this is probably the biggest bone tossed to sorcerers. Oh and bards and oracles get it too.
And then there's the spell "terrible remorse". On a SUCESSFUL SAVE, he CAN'T TAKE ANY ACTIONS. Oh and cops a -2 to AC. 4th level spell available to sorcs, wizards, clerics, oracles. 3rd level for bards and inquisitors.
For example, Monk/Sorcerer is now a much better synergy.Setting aside Zen archer options, what would folks recommend for an optimum build for this concept? How would you break down the class levels?
You take the guided weapon property which allows you to use wisdom for attack rolls.
I would still limit my caster levels though to maybe 6 levels of sorcerer or maybe even 4 to get spells that I might like as buffs. The order I would take them in would be determined by how the GM runs his games.
For example, Monk/Sorcerer is now a much better synergy.Setting aside Zen archer options, what would folks recommend for an optimum build for this concept? How would you break down the class levels?You take the guided weapon property which allows you to use wisdom for attack rolls.
I would still limit my caster levels though to maybe 6 levels of sorcerer or maybe even 4 to get spells that I might like as buffs. The order I would take them in would be determined by how the GM runs his games.
Guilded weapon property?
Where is that at?
Guilded weapon property?
Where is that at?
Pathfinder #10 22
It's a +1 that replaces Strength damage with Wisdom, never at a 1.5 or 0.5 regardless of offhand, main hand or two-handed.
I wouldn't know Pathfinder #10 22 if it hit me in the head (might be from Paizo's days making 3.5 material?) so as for its core legality, I'm not sure.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/wallOfSoundTheUltimateBlastSpell
If I'm reading the spell description right, and I think I am, wall of sound + sleet storm could well be a 2-spell infinite damage combo. No save.
Hm? Some of the point buy on that Synthesist build looks off. Also, where does that +26 Nat. Armor come from?"20 point buy, +10 from 7 str (-4), 7 dex (-4), 8 con (-2) for 30. 15 Int (7), 16 Wisdom (10), 17+2=19 Cha (13). +6 headband of mental prowess, +1 ability score increase in Int, +4 ability score increase in Cha."
20+4+4+2 = 30, 30-7-10-13 = 0.
20 point buy, but I did miss that I changed the natural 18 (17 points) to 17 with the racial +2. So, his Cha should be one higher in the stat block.
+26 is +16 from being a 20th level summoner-- he's not, should be +14. +5 from amulet of natural armor, and +5 from being huge. So his AC should be 2 less.
THERE it is. Haha. alright. Still powerful. Just wanted to make sure it was correct.
And Dwarves DO get CON in addition to WIS, both of which are useful for casters, but DEX and INT are also nice (though -2 CON hurts). Elves with the Sage bloodline do look pretty sweet.
Still, until people start coming up with crazy/awesome/silly wordcasting combos, I think Humans still take it for Sorcerer.
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So far I've actually be pleasantly surprised most of the griping in other threads is coming from Paizo not creating over powered stuff (see cloistered cleric and Vow of Poverty)
Please stop misrepresenting the concerns of those you disagree with.
People aren't complaining about VoP because it isn't "over powered". They're complaining because it isn't adequate for keeping up in standard adventures.
Most would likely be fine if it were just short of a standard monk. As it is it is far less.
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I agree with everything you've said, save the last bit. A wizard does preclude a certain sort of backstory. A wizard could not be a savant from a small farming town, unless said character was latter apprenticed and learned wizardry or some such. As written, that could easily be an oracle (complete with the club foot!).
A farmers son in a small backwoods community discovers an old tomb one day and within it a magically preserved book. He takes it home and stashes it under his bed, or in the barn, and spends the next ten years trying to figure out what the runes mean. Eventually he figures out the internal logic, earns his rank in spell craft and can cast basic spells. At that point he's a wizard, even though he was never schooled and may have no knowledges at all.
The original Golden Heroes superhero rpg had characters with randomly rolled superpowers that the player then had to come up with a backstory to justify. THAT led to some creative backgrounds. I've known several players over the years build an implausibly cheesy character and then justify it with an improbable backstory. Just as with the Golden Heroes referees who had the right to throw out any superpower from a character's list that they didn't feel had a strong enough reason for being there, a DM should be able to veto character builds that don't fit with the spirit of their game. Common sense has to prevail in such cases. Just because the rules say you can/can't do something incredibly cheesy the SPIRIT of the rules does. I've allowed some potentially cheesy character builds into my home games when I've trusted the player not to abuse my generosity and I've also been ambushed by character builds that have turned out cheesier than I had believed possible. Ultimately the proof is in the playing.
Build an entire party with Antagonize. Use it tactically. You don't even have to try for it to shred anything that can understand words.
And they could all be Order of the Dragon Cavaliers. Or Paladins/Life oracles/Other Cha-based healers Yaaaay!
That's when you bust out the undead, I guess. Liches and Vampires understand language, though, and standard zombies would get destroyed. So it'd have to be...zombie dragons.
Not that you could throw zombie dragons at a lv. 1-2 party while being fair. And if you sent that zombie horde after a ton of positive energy characters...normal results.
Hmmm...
I guess this is another reason improved initiative is so good. Antagonizing party goes first, they win. Lockdown mages goes first, they have a chance.
Also, rogues and ninjas could work to counter antagonize. Either make the tumble checks to avoid the attacks of opportunity or remain hidden well enough that the party can't taunt you.
Still, you can't do nothing but throw rogues and ninjas at them, so they are going to butcher plenty of stuff. Bunch of Order of the Dragon cavaliers could work well AGAINST them, too.
But yeah, it's weird to have to specifically counter-pick against the party to make it challenging. Usually you can just throw something "hard" out, and it will be reasonably hard.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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A farmers son in a small backwoods community discovers an old tomb one day and within it a magically preserved book. He takes it home and stashes it under his bed, or in the barn, and spends the next ten years trying to figure out what the runes mean. Eventually he figures out the internal logic, earns his rank in spell craft and can cast basic spells. At that point he's a wizard, even though he was never schooled and may have no knowledges at all.
[Emphasis mine]
So while all the other farmer's sons are looking at 'Play-elf' he's reading a spell book. ;-)
A farmers son in a small backwoods community discovers an old tomb one day and within it a magically preserved book. He takes it home and stashes it under his bed, or in the barn, and spends the next ten years trying to figure out what the runes mean. Eventually he figures out the internal logic, earns his rank in spell craft and can cast basic spells. At that point he's a wizard, even though he was never schooled and may have no knowledges at all.
But he learned his magic from the spellbook. Without a master to teach him, he managed to decipher the tome and teach himself.
That's still wizardry. So long as there is a spellbook and the character must study his spells, he's a wizard.
Barbarian 1/Alchemist 1/Synthesist 18. Biped evolutionary form.
Rages for +4 strength. Drinks mutagen for +4 strength. Base 16, +7 for being level 18, +3 from ability score increases, +6 from a belt of giant's strength, +5 inherent from a tome of strength, +16 from being huge, +6 from ability score increases.
16+4+4+7+3+6+5+16+6 = 67 strength.
Have a question...
What is the '+7 for being level 18' from?
Why do you have +9 'from ability score increases?
Also how is your synthesist large? ( a Eidolon must be the same size of the synthesist)
I think there is some very loose paying attention to rules in this stat block. But than again I find that normal par for course in these types of threads.
Also how is your synthesist large? ( a Eidolon must be at least the same size of the synthesist)
Fixed.
Also how is your synthesist large? ( a Eidolon must be at least the same size of the synthesist)Fixed.
Difference in meaning? I don't have the book so going off of what I read in a friend's copy.
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Difference in meaning? I don't have the book so going off of what I read in a friend's copy.Also how is your synthesist large? ( a Eidolon must be at least the same size of the synthesist)Fixed.
I believe the "at least" part is to keep Medium Summoners from "wearing" Small Eidolons. Like clothing, you can always wear a bigger Eidolon.
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A 20th level Magus with Words of Power can get twenty full attacks in one round through Spell Combat and Borrow Future. Some people might consider that broken.Could you explain how this is possible?
With pleasure.
Borrow Future (time)
School transmutation; Level alchemist 4, bard 4, magus 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 4
EFFECTDuration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
Target Restrictions selectedDESCRIPTION
The target of a wordspell with this effect word takes either a standard action and a move action or a full-round action immediately after a wordspell with this effect word is cast. The target skips its next turn, but any effects that would occur on its turn or spell effects that would expire on its turn occur normally. The target is not helpless on its next turn, but can take no actions.
Borrow Time grants the target an additional full-round action, at the cost of skipping his next turn. Casting a Word Spell is a standard action. A magus can use Spell Combat to cast a spell with a casting time of a standard action in addition to making a full attack as a full-round action, so a magus could use the full-round action granted by Borrow Future to use Spell Combat, make a full attack ... and cast Borrow Future again, gaining an additional full-round action.
This can be repeated till the magus is out of spells. Since it's a 4th level word, a magus with an Intelligence score of 26 would be able to cast the spell 19 times per day, either on it's own or as part of a multiword.Since Borrow Future is a 4th level spell, it can also be made into a wand. The cost of 21,000 gp might be a bit steep, but the ability to attack up to 51 times in one round if you're a magus with the wand wielder arcanum has its benefits.
It's pretty easy to fix, though, just add that Borrow Future can't be used again on a character until he had his penalty round.
With pleasure.
What if you had X maguses, each using the borrow future on his teammate in a loop? I guess that would be Z * X attacks in one round, where Z is the number of times you can cast borrow future (assuming that number is uniform among the maguses -- or magi -- whatever)?
Well you could beat world hunger, but there are some things that could "spoil" that particular combo.A.While those two spells allow you to create edible food, it says nothing about the taste and given the way this was created.... well let´s say it wont be tasty.
B. A Cow is a large creature, the spell works only for small or medium sized creatures, so you could only harvest something like a goat or a fat human.
Good catch on size. So, a calf would be a medium. Unlimited veal. I disagree on the 'Tastes bad', it's restoring the flesh of the skeleton, which means rotten veal.
The purify spell says this : This spell makes spoiled, rotten, diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food and water pure and suitable for eating and drinking.
If it would work on road kill (which it seems to work on) then it should work on the restored flesh of a calf.
C.You can already use tricks to generate vast amounts of "meat":
-Chain up a Troll and cut of his limbs, repeat once they have grown back
-Get a huge mass of meat like a Tyrannosaurus cut of the tail and use Regenerate or a Ring of Regeneration.
Both of those solutions have things that the spell combo doesn't.
First, you've got to keep a live T-Rex, which means feeding him daily (negating the effect of cutting off his tail), plus you need a regeneration ring (which is expensive). And, if I remember correctly, regeneration rings don't regrow limbs, so that doesn't work. And you have to hope the daily feeding isn't you. :) Yes, you can get a ring of sustenance for it, but then, you've got a captive t-rex that needs 2 hours of sleep a day, trying to get loose. :)
Second, with the troll, you've got the same problem as the T-Rex (need to feed it, have to keep it alive, and it's dangerous). :)
...
But that doesn´t mean that I do not understand you problem with the spell. I actually see this spell as a cheap way for a necromancer to build his first little
Well in the unlikely case that some of my players will ever try this trick, the meat will taste pretty terrible (of course Prestidigitation will take care of that).
And yeah, the T-Rex and the Troll tricks are mostly there as proof of concept ;).
Maybe Hyrda heads are the way to go :
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html
This spell could be fixed by adding giving it a restriction similar to wall of iron, but even then it would be possible to abuse it.
On the fun side you can grow your freakish soulless cow using the Sculp Corpse spell to turn int into a big cow, or bull or the king.....
After reading Sculp Corpse a bit ... it could actually do the same as Restore Corpse ...
Plese tell me that you can´t use Sculp Corpse about a dozen times to turn a dead rat into a Godzilla sized cow, after all there is no duration, and no limit.
The thing with the Synthesist is that he gives up having the eidolon as a companion - essentially, the Synthesist has -1 action, which is the biggest blow to power that exists in 3e outside of full spellcasting.
Unless you're trying to show that he's better then martial classes, at which point my only reply can be "Ok so it's a 3e character."
That's what GM's are for, to ask how the illiterate barbarian managed to get a degree in alchemy then toss it to the side and make friends with an extra world entitity.Last I remember barbarians wheren't illiterate in Pathfinder...
Get off my lawn you young whippersnapper!
:)
Borrow Time grants the target an additional full-round action, at the cost of skipping his next turn. Casting a Word Spell is a standard action. A magus can use Spell Combat to cast a spell with a casting time of a standard action in addition to making a full attack as a full-round action, so a magus could use the full-round action granted by Borrow Future to use Spell Combat, make a full attack ... and cast Borrow Future again, gaining an additional full-round action.
This can be repeated till the magus is out of spells. Since it's a 4th level word, a magus with an Intelligence score of 26 would be able to cast the spell 19 times per day, either on it's own or as part of a multiword.
Since Borrow Future is a 4th level spell, it can also be made into a wand. The cost of 21,000 gp might be a bit steep, but the ability to attack up to 51 times in one round if you're a magus with the wand wielder arcanum has its benefits.It's pretty easy to fix, though, just add that Borrow Future can't be used again on a character until he had his penalty round.
Amazing. I will use this.
Not that I'm complaining, per se. Just... wow that's one hell of a system...
But that Borrow Future thing should probably be addressed...
I'm not sure it should, really... direct HP damage (which is what this allows) will always be less effective than "battlefield control" magics, like dominate, black tentacles, etc. And I'm not sure the magus would even equal a paladin smiting-charger build of equal level.
If it were up to me, I would leave it as is. Fun tricks are good to use, and this doesn't scream GAME-BREAKING to me in any way.
Not that I'm complaining, per se. Just... wow that's one hell of a system...
But that Borrow Future thing should probably be addressed...
I'm not sure it should, really... direct HP damage (which is what this allows) will always be less effective than "battlefield control" magics, like dominate, black tentacles, etc. And I'm not sure the magus would even equal a paladin smiting-charger build of equal level.
If it were up to me, I would leave it as is. Fun tricks are good to use, and this doesn't scream GAME-BREAKING to me in any way.
Would you be ok with it being used against the party?
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Not that I'm complaining, per se. Just... wow that's one hell of a system...
But that Borrow Future thing should probably be addressed...
I'm not sure it should, really... direct HP damage (which is what this allows) will always be less effective than "battlefield control" magics, like dominate, black tentacles, etc. And I'm not sure the magus would even equal a paladin smiting-charger build of equal level.
If it were up to me, I would leave it as is. Fun tricks are good to use, and this doesn't scream GAME-BREAKING to me in any way.
You're talking about the 20 full attacks right, something the wizard(considered the strongest class by many people) can't do? In fact, it's something the strongest damage per round class, the fighter, can't even do.
You're talking about the 20 full attacks right, something the wizard(considered the strongest class by many people) can't do? In fact, it's something the strongest damage per round class, the fighter, can't even do.
At a level where a wizard can trap someone in a demiplane and summon angels and demons to do his bidding, I am totally cool with someone hitting something 20 turns in a row.
Would you be ok with it being used against the party?
. . .puts 4 magus NPCs with the Step Up feats into game.
. . .play defensively (using dispel magic possibly to avoid staggered effects) until the melee characters get close.
. . .use two of the NPCs to use the borrow time combo to auto-kill all the melee characters.
. . .use the other two NPCs to intercept the non-melee characters, focusing on disrupting spells and not getting away.
. . .if an opportunity to do a full attack opens up, auto-kill the non-melee characters.
At a level where a wizard can trap someone in a demiplane and summon angels and demons to do his bidding, I am totally cool with someone hitting something 20 turns in a row.You're talking about the 20 full attacks right, something the wizard(considered the strongest class by many people) can't do? In fact, it's something the strongest damage per round class, the fighter, can't even do.
That does not mean autokills are ok, and nothing is surviving 20 full round attacks so yeah barring some statistical anomaly it is an auto kill.
@Dragonborn3 and Ithuriel: You guys might be correct on your interpertation...I read it as it does not not matter if the base form is a serpertine, quadped, or other than humaniod...but it is atleast must be the same size. But I am willing to concede this point till we we see some FAQ or errata.
I still think the strength score is off...
@Dragonborn3 and Ithuriel: You guys might be correct on your interpertation...I read it as it does not not matter if the base form is a serpertine, quadped, or other than humaniod...but it is atleast must be the same size. But I am willing to concede this point till we we see some FAQ or errata.
I still think the strength score is off...
I don't think you will. James was of the opinion it should be up to the GM to decide. In my own games, it'll be up to the player. If he wants to be inside it like a Power Ranger, that's fine. If he wants to be a centaur when merged, that's fine too. If he wants to be a lamia type, that's also fine.
I wouldn't call this "broken" personally, but the Words of Power spell Undeath has no expensive material component, so a 3rd level wordcasting cleric could create skeletons and zombies ad infinitum. Of course, there's a limit on how many she could control, but it's still fun. :-)
That does not mean autokills are ok, and nothing is surviving 20 full round attacks so yeah barring some statistical anomaly it is an auto kill.
Err... gish doesn't get nice things too? *shrug*
Err... gish doesn't get nice things too? *shrug*
That does not mean autokills are ok, and nothing is surviving 20 full round attacks so yeah barring some statistical anomaly it is an auto kill.There's precious little that kills outright in the game anymore, and those that do allow a saving roll and, ultimately, most importantly, are not statistically guaranteed to work.
This is far, far different. A single character can walk up to his opponent and take 19 full attacks in a row, without his opponent getting an opportunity to move, attack back, or do virtually anything. If the magus stood still, he gets a 20th, but that's not likely to matter. That magus's full attacks are going to be 3-4 attacks apiece, after haste. So I am going to hit you 57-76 times. Theoretically, I will crit you about 5-8 times (off a 19-20 crit range), hit you another 20-30 times, and miss the rest. So I'm going to hit you with 30-46 dice (we'll say d8's) of damage, and apply 30-46x my Strength modifier in damage as well. Assume I've got a Str of 16 base, 20 or so after a +4 belt. Average damage: 285-437 damage. On a 50% hit rate. With a normal masterwork longsword. Throw in a Greater Magic Weapon or simple +5 weapon. Now we've got 435-667 damage on average dice. How many hitpoints does a 20th level 30 Con Barbarian have when raging? 540, if he rolled straight 12's and took the Favored Class Hp bonus each time. Possibly before our Barbarian, who's optimized for Hp mind, can act, our Magus one hit KO's him - on perfectly average dice (551 damage).
Off a horribly unoptimized, half built magus, using this exploit, we've one shot just about everything in the Bestiary I not named the Tarrasque, who only lives currently due to his DR 15/epic. Apply even a smidge of extra damage, say, Power Attack and an elemental enchant, and we put him down too. All before they get to go.
I'm all for giving folks nice things; that 6th lvl Cone of Cold for Clerics, for...
I'm not too familiar with the words of power system, but I suspect sorcerers and wizards might also be able to use quicken to unleash a barrage of spells before anyone can do a thing?
I'm not too familiar with the words of power system, but I suspect sorcerers and wizards might also be able to use quicken to unleash a barrage of spells before anyone can do a thing?Magnitudes of difference.
A sorcerer or wizard can cast precisely two spells in their turn, one standard one quickened, possibly before your opponent can act. Technically, a third could be dropped, if it were castable as an immediate action, but those are few and far between and almost certainly never offensive in nature.
We're discussing 20 Full Attack Actions. Easily 550 damage on average dice. For comparison's sake, a Wizard or Sorc would have to drop 4 or so Maximized, Empowered 15d6 damage spells to equal the AVERAGE result from this loophole IF the opponent fails their saves each time. Assuming 50% save pass rate (equitable to the 50% hit rate from the Magus) we'd have to drop two more. So we'd have to drop no less than 6 Maximized Empowered Cone of Colds (or intensified Fireballs, or whathaveyou) in a single turn to match this loophole's damage rate. Which is 3x how many spells we can actually drop.
EDIT: Timestop will get you close to the combo's average damage, by dropping Delayed Blast Fireballs.
Were there potential for a Wizard or Sorc to drop 20 or more offensive spells in a single turn, you bet your arse I'd be complaining about it too.
EDIT:
I suppose one could generate some abuse through Time Control. It's no different from the Time Stop shenanigans that already occur...
A quick glance through the Words of Power show no blatant temporal abuse tricks on par with this for Wizzies and Sorcs. Time Control is the same as Time Stop, meaning we get, at best, Delayed Blast Fireballs from inside a timestop. Nothing new.Also, bear in mind that lesser forms of the magus nova can be generated as early as 10th level.
Ah, I just read the word description and I see the problem now. And yes, it's cheesy and needs some addressing, or Magi would be devastatingly powerful.
Err... gish doesn't get nice things too? *shrug*
That does not mean autokills are ok, and nothing is surviving 20 full round attacks so yeah barring some statistical anomaly it is an auto kill.
If nice things means autokill then no. If nice things means appropriate things that did not make GM's or players want to throw books at you then yes they can get nice things.
You still did not answer my question about how you would feel if it were used against the PC's. :)